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Pilling diagrams
Martin
Dec. 4, 2006, 11:13 a.m. (Message 47259)
Peter Price wrote: > I happen to be a better map reader than I am a word reader. You are not alone! >I can process/visualize a dance from (...) diagrams far quicker than I > can from the words. Note that I have deleted "Pilling" from your phrase. For a long time, I drew my own diagrams for dances (no longer have the time!) which would give me an at-a-glance synopsis of the patterns to teach or to dance. But the green book is not so easy to interpret. Since the infamous Manual gets modified from time to time, what a pity the successors of Mr Pilling do not improve the little book 1: by turning the set 90° so that it will be seen from the teacher's or the band's point of view rather than the men's. (when in doubt, I have to turn the book 90° to work out whether it is reels across or reels on sides, for example) 2: by providing more floor patterns and less symbols (that ridiculous cast-off sign which looks like a floor pattern but is not, and needs some careful interpreting!) No harm in hoping. Martin in Grenoble, France
Martin Sheffield ha scritto: > > 2: by providing more floor patterns and less symbols (that ridiculous > cast-off sign which looks like a floor pattern but is not, and needs > some careful interpreting!) After years of being unable to remember which symbol meant cast and which meant dance/lead, quite recently it dawned on me that those symbols are drawn from the lady's point of view. So if you look at the diagram, the lady is casting behind her line and if she is dancing/leading up/down she dances towards the the middle. As I said for years I had to refer to the table at the beginning of the green book to see what was what, but now I don't need it any more :-D . Andrea (fae Dundee)
Selon Andrea Re <xxxxxx.xx@xxxxxx.xxx>: > After years of being unable to remember which symbol meant cast and > which meant dance/lead, quite recently it dawned on me that those > symbols are drawn from the lady's point of view. So if you look at the > diagram, the lady is casting behind her line and if she is > dancing/leading up/down she dances towards the the middle. Quite, but why do that when all the rest is written from the man's point of view? Is it some cunning ploy to confuse those who are not "in the know" (keep the riff-raff out, as Basil Fawlty would say)? Or is it just random inconsistency? Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
Sophie Rickebusch ha scritto: > Selon Andrea Re <xxxxxx.xx@xxxxxx.xxx>: > > >> After years of being unable to remember which symbol meant cast and >> which meant dance/lead, quite recently it dawned on me that those >> symbols are drawn from the lady's point of view. So if you look at the >> diagram, the lady is casting behind her line and if she is >> dancing/leading up/down she dances towards the the middle. >> > > Quite, but why do that when all the rest is written from the man's point of > view? Is it some cunning ploy to confuse those who are not "in the know" (keep > the riff-raff out, as Basil Fawlty would say)? Or is it just random > inconsistency? > > Sorry, my fault. What I meant to say is that the man is looking at what the lady is doing ;-) . Andrea (who doesn't know HIS right from HIS left :-D )
On 4 Dec 2006 at 15:23, Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
> Selon Andrea Re <xxxxxx.xx@xxxxxx.xxx>:
>
> > Sorry, my fault. What I meant to say is that the man is looking at what
> > the lady is doing ;-) .
>
> Even worse! And someone accused me of having a "tortured mind" recently on this
> list ;-)
>
> Sophie
Isn't it nice to know you are not the only one Sophie! :))
When Lavinia was able to dance she often used graph paper to do
great diagrams of difficult dances which were used by many teachers round
this neck o.t.w. Strangely all the diagrams were from the foot looking up the
set!
They worked though.
Ron
Selon xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx: > When Lavinia was able to dance she often used graph paper to do > great diagrams of difficult dances which were used by many teachers round > this neck o.t.w. Strangely all the diagrams were from the foot looking up > the > set! > They worked though. I think my mental image of the set is from the foot because I formed this picture when I first learnt to dance, when I would have been standing somewhere in the set, looking up towards the teacher. This reprentation is also convenient if you're frequently swapping sides, as it's the same whether you're standing in the men's line or the women's. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way though :-) I also like to draw diagrams when trying to figure out a difficult dance. Sometimes I use bits of paper with numbers in different colours - and I suspect I'm not the only one to have sat on her bed at Summer school getting 1st tea-bag to turn 2nd sugar RH while 1st sugar and 2nd tea-bag dance round them... Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
Well isn't the difference that the Explainer stands at the top - showing the dance down the way - the viewer see the explanations coming from the top down towards themselves. And now we have the teabag birds' eye view also :>) Where will it end!!!! PG tips on her toes Pia I think my mental image of the set is from the foot because I formed this picture when I first learnt to dance, when I would have been standing somewhere in the set, looking up towards the teacher. This reprentation is also convenient if you're frequently swapping sides, as it's the same whether you're standing in the men's line or the women's. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way though :-) I also like to draw diagrams when trying to figure out a difficult dance. Sometimes I use bits of paper with numbers in different colours - and I suspect I'm not the only one to have sat on her bed at Summer school getting 1st tea-bag to turn 2nd sugar RH while 1st sugar and 2nd tea-bag dance round them... Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/561 - Release Date: 01/12/2006 06:36 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/561 - Release Date: 01/12/2006 06:36
Sophie Rickebusch wrote: > Sometimes I use bits of paper with numbers in different colours - and I > suspect I'm not the only one to have sat on her bed at Summer school > getting 1st tea-bag to turn 2nd sugar RH while 1st sugar and 2nd tea-bag > dance round them... I actually climbed the ladder to my parents' attic to find a bunch of those Playmobil figures from way back when. They're convenient because they come in obviously different colours, there are boys and girls, and they're now wearing track-and-field style numbered bibs as well :^) Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx The most valuable thing you can own in this world is a standard, and Netscape and Sun seem to understand this very well. -- Aaron Watters
Sophie wrote: > I think my mental image of the set is from the foot > because I formed this picture when I first learnt to > dance, when I would have been standing somewhere in > the set, looking up towards the teacher. This > reprentation is also convenient if you're frequently > swapping sides, as it's the same whether you're > standing in the men's line or the women's. I'm glad > to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way though :-) Sophie, you are definitely not the only one! That's exactly how my mind works too. We obviously think alike... perhaps we are unusual though, as I think you were the only person who agreed with me about how to number corners a little while ago ;o)) Best regards, Jan Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire - UK RSCDS London Branch
On 5 Dec 2006 at 10:07, Sophie Rickebusch wrote: > I also like to draw diagrams when trying to figure out a difficult dance. > Sometimes I use bits of paper with numbers in different colours Yes, but have you got round to tracks delineated in pink and blue dotted lines? - and I suspect > I'm not the only one to have sat on her bed at Summer school getting 1st tea-bag > to turn 2nd sugar RH while 1st sugar and 2nd tea-bag dance round them... > > Sophie I didn't think of this when 'inventing' Everything Stops for Tea. And I usually take sugar too.
Selon xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx: >> Playmobil figures > > Very ingenious. I should think there is a ready market for those at > teacher training courses. So the "what to take" list for next year's teacher candidates will read: - Manual - Exam syllabus - Core programme - Pen and notepad - Playmobil ;-) Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
> Is it some cunning ploy to confuse those who are not "in the know"
> (keep the riff-raff out, as Basil Fawlty would say)? Or is it just random
> inconsistency?
Think of it as »equal opportunities«. If symbols such as »cast off behind own
lines and back« are obviously drawn from the men's point of view, then some
symbols need to be drawn from the ladies' point of view just to be fair (and
fill the quota). Hence, leading and casting. In that respect F. L. Pilling
was *way* ahead of his time :^)
I'm still hoping for the software that will convert dance descriptions into
Pilling diagrams automatically. Once we have this, it will be an easy tweak
to generate pink Pilling-style books for the ladies and light-blue ones for
the men, so all diagrams can be correct-side-up. We can even make (a black?)
one for teachers like Martin who prefer to view everything from the top of
the set.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
It's really scary how many major business decisions which affect your job,
your investments, or your market, are taken daily on the basis of half-truths
and ill-informed opinion simply because no-one thought to check the facts.
-- Peter Flynn
Selon Anselm Lingnau <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>: > Once we have this, it will be an easy tweak > to generate pink Pilling-style books for the ladies and light-blue ones for > the men, so all diagrams can be correct-side-up. We can even make (a black?) > one for teachers like Martin who prefer to view everything from the top of > the set. Couldn't we just have a book with the top of the set towards the top of the page (the set viewed from the balcony in the hall if you like)? Sophie (who hates pink anyway) -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
On 12/4/06, Sophie Rickebusch <xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xx> wrote: > > > Couldn't we just have a book with the top of the set towards the top of > the page > (the set viewed from the balcony in the hall if you like)? > > Sophie > (who hates pink anyway) > -- > Sophie Rickebusch > FR - St Martin d'Heres What!? Then all the rest of us who have no problem with the status quo whould have to learn the stuff all over again! From my perspective (as a man) 'it ain't broke' - don't need to fix it :-)) More importantly, if I got confused it would destroy the myth of the infallible teacher held by my class. Peter New Haven, Ct/
On 4 Dec 2006 at 14:38, Anselm Lingnau wrote: > I'm still hoping for the software that will convert dance descriptions into > Pilling diagrams automatically. Once we have this, it will be an easy tweak > to generate pink Pilling-style books for the ladies and light-blue ones for > the men, so all diagrams can be correct-side-up. We can even make (a black?) > one for teachers like Martin who prefer to view everything from the top of > the set. > > Anselm I do like to see ambition in a man! :)) R
Sophie Rickebusch wrote: > Or is it just random inconsistency? Just lack of clear thinking. Whatever the origin, it is just another example of a mistake that gets set in stone. Like using the initial chords to shuffle across to the opposite side of the set (instead of honouring your partner and your corner) ... or using the Manual diagram to dance a crooked ladies chain (instead of dancing it within your set) ... Martin in Grenoble, France
On 4 Dec 2006 at 11:38, Andrea Re wrote: > After years of being unable to remember which symbol meant cast and > which meant dance/lead, quite recently it dawned on me that those > symbols are drawn from the lady's point of view. So if you look at the > diagram, the lady is casting behind her line and if she is > dancing/leading up/down she dances towards the the middle. What A bright lad you are, Andrea! Nice observation which helps. I'm not a great lover of Pilling but it has it's uses. I look upon it as a sort of code or cave painting. Ron :)
Something further down the thread bothered me until I just realized what it was. One reason I never had a problem with pillings is that I did not teach from the top of the room. I magine a long rectangle with the "music" both piano and record player at the top of the room, in the corner. This meant that the piano was at the top on the women´s side where I never had to go, but could keep eye contact with the pianist from the top of the man´s side where the record player was located. So my view of the nearest set was always the same as my view of the Pilling´s cue. Note, many of the early RSCDS diagrams of figures are not with the top at the top of the page, but to the reader´s left. I have never seen any from the women´s side, nor from the top of the set looking down.
Good one Peter. I have trouble enough when a non RSCDS book has diagrams in different configurations. I'm a Virgo and can't help it. Ha! << What!? Then all the rest of us who have no problem with the status quo whould have to learn the stuff all over again! From my perspective (as a man) 'it ain't broke' - don't need to fix it :-)) More importantly, if I got confused it would destroy the myth of the infallible teacher held by my class. >> Bib McMurtry San Francisco Branch
I don't use them often, but when I first became acquainted with them, it was sort of a challenge to figure them out. It's a bit like learning a new language - with frequent and repeated use, it soon becomes second nature. As a woman, I didn't really have a problem with the perspective - I visually put myself so the diagrams make sense in my head. I guess I am a visual person. Gayle Hoepner Ames, Iowa If you can talk you can sing. If you can walk you can dance.
Greetngs! Anselm wrote: > I actually climbed the ladder to my parents' attic to find a bunch of those > Playmobil figures from way back when. They're convenient because they come in > obviously different colours Marilyn and I use five pairs of Lego figures 'inherited' from our children. Red, white, yellow, green and blue. I have also spent several interesting evenings at Linda Gaul's house moving four different salt and pepper sets around the table. Jim Healy Perth and Monaco
Wow, that's you, Ron's wife, my mother and me... we're moving from "lonely voice in the desert" to "small but significant minority"! ;-) It does seem to be more of a female point of view (although we hardly have a representative sample here!), just as the preference for corner numbering was. Both could also be linked to the fact that women frequently have to dance as men, so they're more likely to prefer representations which aren't biased towards one side-line or the other. Best regards, Sophie Selon Jan E Rudge <xxxxxx@xxx.xxx>: > Sophie, you are definitely not the only one! That's exactly > how my mind works too. We obviously think alike... > perhaps we are unusual though, as I think you were the > only person who agreed with me about how to number > corners a little while ago ;o)) > > Best regards, > > Jan > > Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire - UK > RSCDS London Branch -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
Greetings All, I have always used squares and circles drawn on paper and, since Bob Campbell introduced the concept, I draw the squares and circles with a bar across one 'side' to represent the direction each 'dancer' faces. In fact, I usually work out a dance in my mind using moving squares and circles. Regards, Iain Boyd Wellington New Zealand Gary Knox <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: I use dice to work through dances. One color for the ladies and another for the gentlemen, the number on the top side represents the couple number.
I love hearing all the various ways people work out dances. I'm afraid I am not so sophisticated: I just write out 1M, 1W, etc. on a piece of paper and work out where they end up after a figure, write out that formation, etc. until I've worked through the entire dance. And I find I write out dances "from the foot," i.e. my starting arrangement is: 1M 1W 2M 2W 3M 3W 4M 4W or however many couples or people I need. Sue Chicago (USA) Branch Iain Boyd wrote: >Greetings All, > > I have always used squares and circles drawn on paper and, since Bob Campbell introduced the concept, I draw the squares and circles with a bar across one 'side' to represent the direction each 'dancer' faces. In fact, I usually work out a dance in my mind using moving squares and circles. > > Regards, > > Iain Boyd > Wellington > New Zealand > > >Gary Knox <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > I use dice to work through dances. One color for the ladies and another for >the gentlemen, the number on the top side represents the couple number. > >______________________ >Gary Knox >San Francisco Branch > > > > > > >Postal Address - > > P O Box 11-404 > Wellington > New Zealand > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > -- Susan McKinnell xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx http://suedan.com "A house without a cat, and a well-fed, well-petted, and properly revered cat, may be a perfect house, perhaps, but how can it prove its title?" - Mark Twain, The Tragedy of Pudd'nhead Wilson
Yes, that seems to be what most people instinctively do. It would be interesting to give a class of relative newcomers pencils and paper and ask them to draw a set as if they were explaining the arrangement to someone who'd never done SCD, see which way up they come out. My bet is there'd be a majority of "top of the set at the top of the page". Sophe Selon Susan McKinnell <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>: > I love hearing all the various ways people work out dances. I'm afraid > I am not so sophisticated: I just write out 1M, 1W, etc. on a piece of > paper and work out where they end up after a figure, write out that > formation, etc. until I've worked through the entire dance. And I find > I write out dances "from the foot," i.e. my starting arrangement is: > 1M 1W > 2M 2W > 3M 3W > 4M 4W > or however many couples or people I need. > Sue > Chicago (USA) Branch > > Iain Boyd wrote: > > >Greetings All, > > > > I have always used squares and circles drawn on paper and, since Bob > Campbell introduced the concept, I draw the squares and circles with a bar > across one 'side' to represent the direction each 'dancer' faces. In fact, I > usually work out a dance in my mind using moving squares and circles. > > > > Regards, > > > > Iain Boyd > > Wellington > > New Zealand > > > > > >Gary Knox <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > > I use dice to work through dances. One color for the ladies and another > for > >the gentlemen, the number on the top side represents the couple number. > > > >______________________ > >Gary Knox > >San Francisco Branch > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Postal Address - > > > > P O Box 11-404 > > Wellington > > New Zealand > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > Susan McKinnell xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx http://suedan.com > > "A house without a cat, and a well-fed, well-petted, and properly > revered cat, may be a perfect house, perhaps, but how can it prove > its title?" > - Mark Twain, The Tragedy of Pudd'nhead Wilson > > > -- Sophie Rickebusch FR - St Martin d'Heres
Just a quick addendum to my last post. I only take out pencil and paper when I don't have a mental grasp of the dance I'm learning. Most recently - John Paul Jones' Apologies to Lady Selkirk -(San Diego Bicentennial collection) there was simply too much going on in Bars 9-24 - I couldn't keep it straight. Out with the pencil & paper. Then I could "see" the pattern and draw the Pillling diagram (and teach the dance at my next class). Peter PS "Oh My America" was also published in San Diego's Bicentennial Coll.
>I love hearing all the various ways people work out dances. As do I. I have been wondering if I am alone in NOT using graph paper, pepper pots, chess pieces, bottle tops, dolls and all the other aids mentioned ; I've always danced everything through in my head alone. Maybe it was a result of my profession - I was a designer of intricate mechanisms, and, before computers, much of it had to be done mentally. From there, it was a small step to apply work to recreation, and I've always seen a set as a piece of mechanism. Although my early dancing pre-dates the first Pilling by 9 years, interestingly I've always seen a set just as Pilling does, that is as if from the west balcony of the Younger Hall. It crossed my mind to wonder if he, too, sat in that same balcony (or a similar one) in the early fifties, and it was there that he had his great inspiration. It would go a long way to explaining his choice of symbols - particularly those for casting and leading - as, unless one leans over the rail, they are exactly what you see most prominently down below! John M Sturrock Cupar UK
John, personally, I also prefer working dances out in my head. I like to think of dances as simply progressions of different figures and I prefer that they are taught that way also. Often my wife and I travel to New Orleans for Scottish Country dance class and we arrive early so we can dine occasionally at a local restaurant with friends from class. I found myself one evening trying to explain the "Ninesome Reel" to someone who had never done the dance. I used sweetener packets to illustrate the dance. Pink packets for the ladies and blue packets for the gents. (I was tempted to use a yellow packet for the Bumpkin!) BTW it worked well! Tom Mungall Baton Rouge, La, USA
>I have been wondering if I am alone in NOT using graph paper, pepper >pots, >chess pieces, bottle tops, dolls and all the other aids mentioned ; I've >always danced everything through in my head alone. Maybe it was a result >of >my profession - I was a designer of intricate mechanisms, and, before >computers, much of it had to be done mentally. From there, it was a small >step to apply work to recreation, and I've always seen a set as a piece of >mechanism. I too see dances, and their patterns, in my mind and very rarely use an aid. I enjoy the similarity in dances and my profession, architecture. They are both total geometry but the result is hopefully a thing of beauty. If it is not, it is neither dance nor architecture. >Although my early dancing pre-dates the first Pilling by 9 years, >interestingly I've always seen a set just as Pilling does, that is as if >from the west balcony of the Younger Hall. It crossed my mind to wonder if >he, too, sat in that same balcony (or a similar one) in the early fifties, >and it was there that he had his great inspiration. It would go a long way >to explaining his choice of symbols - particularly those for casting and >leading - as, unless one leans over the rail, they are exactly what you >see most prominently down below! > >John M Sturrock >Cupar UK I don't know when Pilling started but I've never learnt it. My education must be lacking, I should try and master it. Simon Vancouver
Another Architect - I usually follow them in my head, just occasionally a squiggly line with a 2B and nothing to beat Autocad for music or dance symbols. > > >I too see dances, and their patterns, in my mind and very rarely use an aid. >I enjoy the similarity in dances and my profession, architecture. They are >both total geometry but the result is hopefully a thing of beauty. If it is >not, it is neither dance nor architecture. > > > > -- Bryan McAlister
> Although my early dancing pre-dates the first Pilling by 9 years, > interestingly I've always seen a set just as Pilling does, that is as if > from the west balcony of the Younger Hall. It crossed my mind to wonder if > he, too, sat in that same balcony (or a similar one) in the early fifties, > and it was there that he had his great inspiration. It would go a long way > to explaining his choice of symbols - particularly those for casting and > leading - as, unless one leans over the rail, they are exactly what you > see most prominently down below! > > John M Sturrock That's an interesting thought, John. I'm usually too busy with a camera to have such profound thoughts! Salve Ron