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No more sword dances?
Fiona Grant
June 2, 2008, 10:48 p.m. (Message 52611)
Hello to all, but especially British citizens, The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways, but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of the dance. Currently, the government does not recognize dance as either a Historical re-enactment or sporting activity and therefore dancers are not included within the exemption for the purchase and use of swords with regards to the VCR bill. These dances are forms of art that are of great historical and cultural relevance. Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have been used in violent crime. If you are resident in the UK, please have a look at this petition to the Prime Minister on the Downing Street website. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers Highland dances just will not look the same without swords, and where will the Morris men be without their sticks to whack. If Gordon Brown owns up to his Scottish heritage, we might hope he wont deprive us of using real swords to dance over, but I would not put money on it. Please sign the petition if you are a British resident, or an ex-pat in an overseas territory. And please pass on the news to any members of your dance groups. On with the dance, Fiona Bristol UK
Fiona Grant wrote: > Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my > mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have > been used in violent crime. This misses the point somewhat, I think. The point is not »doing something about the vast numbers of murders etc. being committed using highland dancers' (dull) swords«. The point, on the politicians' part, »is being perceived to do something dramatic for the public good«, even if the public good doesn't really care one way or the other. Fortunately (from the point of view of the proposing party), nobody can really be against the new law in principle as that would be tantamount to condoning »sword crime«. Any objections on the part of the parliamentary opposition would have to be on the grounds of the bill not being far-reaching enough (it should, for example, also ban kitchen knives -- another ingredient to violent crime if there ever was one) or various technicalities of no real consequence (like whether dancing counts as a sport where swords should still be allowed, or not). Anyway, never mind swords for the moment, but is HM Government really planning to outlaw sticks? Any sticks at all? Exactly what must a stick look like and/or be made of to perhaps still be permissible? What about canes or crutches? Broom handles? Tent poles? Fence posts? Railway ties? Toothpicks? Cheese straws? Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Stop trying to protect me from myself. [...] Plastic knives are for picnics. Surgery and the like require scalpels. -- Eric Herrmann
This is rather ridiculous--but it is the way government works. I suppose all heavy blunt objects should be banned while we're at it. I've never heard of a highland dancer going ballistic with a sword after poor marks. I have heard of "kilt divers" however during Mardi Gras parades who will often attempt to swipe sgian dubhs from pipers' kilt hose--know someone who had their hand sliced open that way. It's the little blades that are the real danger, not big swords--they've been watching too much "Highlander." Thanks for giving me another reason why I'm grateful to live this side of the pond. No offense intended. James Mungall Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote: > Somehow the crossed bananas dance just doesn't cut it. That reminds me of the story when a team from, I think, New Scotland went to France and used a pair of the local »baguettes« for the Breadsword Dance. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Java taught the world that you can sell literal piles of feces to Fortune 500 companies if you wrap the package up in enough buzzwords. -- James Bennett
Anselm wrote: | Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote: | > Somehow the crossed bananas dance just doesn't cut it. | | That reminds me of the story when a team from, I think, New Scotland went to | France and used a pair of the local =BBbaguettes=AB for the Breadsword Dance. For some years, I've been playing for a Rapper team that has a bit of humor that they do for gatherings of Morris/Sword dancers. When it's their turn, they rush on all in a panic because they can't find their swords. After the usual chaotic everyone-talk-at-once bit, they get an idea, and borrow hankies from onlookers. I start playing the Winster Processional, they process on, I switch to the same tune in fast jig time, and they start doing Rapper their dance the hankies as swords. It's pretty funny. Finally, they make a "knot", one guy holds it up and looks disgustedly at the tangled mess of cloth, and someone rushes out with the swords. We don't do this dance for general audiences, as it wouldn't mean much to non-dancers, but Morris dancers often request the dance. I do wonder whether the Rapper swords would qualify for the purpose of the proposed law. These are "swords" only in the sense that they are thin steel blades. It's actually spring steel, of course, and these swords have never been weapons. They were developed as scraping and shaping tools around 1800, when flexible steel was developed. I've used some very similar tools for smoothing curved surfaces of furniture and boats. It would be difficult to inflict any serious injuries on anyone with one of these swords, though you could make a sort of "road burn". The dancers do occasionally get small scrapes or even cuts. But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes. I've had this image of terrorists breaking into the cabin and forcibly giving the pilot a manicure, which brings the plane down when the pilot is unable to reach the controls due to the terrorists' work on an especially difficult cuticle problem. If Monty Python were still on the job, I supposed they'd have done a skit like this. -- What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
John Chambers wrote: <snip> > But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban > dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes. or giant cartoon robots on t-shirts: http://gizmodo.com/394544/optimus-prime-t+shirt-transforms-into-arrest-threat-at-airport This isn't even paranoia anymore, I think we have arrived at idiocy... -cord -- Cord Walter email: xxxx.xxxxxx@xxx.xx Public PGP-Key available on request Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe: http://www.gnupg.org/ http://www.truecrypt.org/
Cord Walter wrote: | John Chambers wrote: | <snip> | > But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban | > dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes. | | or giant cartoon robots on t-shirts: | http://gizmodo.com/394544/optimus-prime-t+shirt-transforms-into-arrest-threat-at-airport | | This isn't even paranoia anymore, I think we have arrived at idiocy... Yeah; here in the Boston area we got a lot of laughs from that one. Actually, the security folks have a phrase for it. They call it Security Theater (or Theatre in the UK ;-). This refers to fake security measures with the purpose of impressing the general population that Something Is Being Done, while not providing any actual effective security. -- What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Anselm Lingnau wrote: > Fiona Grant wrote: > >> Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my >> mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have >> been used in violent crime. > > This misses the point somewhat, I think. The point is not "doing something > about the vast numbers of murders etc. being committed using highland > dancers' (dull) swords". The point, on the politicians' part, is "being > perceived to do something dramatic for the public good", even if the public > good doesn't really care one way or the other. The proposed ban has exemptions under two categories: "HEALTH/FITNESS/SPORT" and "HISTORICAL PRESERVATION" but dancing doesn't appear under either category. The petition isn't to block the bill but to add dance to the existing list of exemptions. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Cambridge, UK
Andrew C Aitchison wrote:
> The proposed ban has exemptions under two categories:
> "HEALTH/FITNESS/SPORT" and "HISTORICAL PRESERVATION" but dancing doesn't
> appear under either category. The petition isn't to block the bill but to
> add dance to the existing list of exemptions.
Makes sense to me (»If you can't beat 'em, join 'em«). Somebody should show
the MPs a video of a bunch of little girls doing the Ghillie Callum at the
highland games. If that isn't »health/fitness/sport« then what is? -- and
crime statistics ought to show that they're unlikely to go off with their
swords afterwards and hold up a candy shop.
I still think they should also ban kitchen knives. There must be at least a
hundred kitchen knife assaults to every sword assault in the UK -- for the
last century or so --, so if they're really serious about violent crime that
should make a much bigger difference.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
This young lady has delusions of adequacy.
-- From a British military officer fitness report
----- "Anselm Lingnau" <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Stop trying to protect me from myself. [...] Plastic knives are for > picnics. > Surgery and the like require scalpels. -- Eric > Herrmann Another spookily relevant quote from Anselm's automatic quote-generator! Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch Edinburgh, UK
How utterly ridiculous! It's really just a control issue. In Canada, though there is much discussion about weapons bans, cultural activities are very important. Of course, Scottish culture is never appreciated quite enough... And in the end, we have to realize that people kill people; weapons don't kill people, any more than a spoon made King Henry VIII fat. Heather
----- "Pia" <xxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Good discussion, but does this law cover Scotland? Or just England and > Wales ? > Does it matter? There are plenty of Highland dancers throughout the British isles, I don't see why any of them should be banned from practising their favourite activity. However, I agree it would be better if these petitions contained a link to the proposed law or whatever, so that people could get all the information. Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch Edinburgh, UK
A good point - I have just Googled "Violent Crimes Reduction Bill", and all I can find is something dated 2006. Malcolm Malcolm L Brown York (UK) > -----Original Message----- > From: strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx > [mailto:strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx] On Behalf Of > Sophie Rickebusch > Sent: 03 June 2008 10:13 > To: SCD news and discussion > Subject: Re: No more sword dances? > > ----- "Pia" <xxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > > > Good discussion, but does this law cover Scotland? Or just England and > > Wales ? > > > > Does it matter? There are plenty of Highland dancers throughout the British isles, I don't see > why any of them should be banned from practising their favourite activity. However, I agree it > would be better if these petitions contained a link to the proposed law or whatever, so that
Well it matters in a legal argument - up here in Scotland I would argue that it is a human right to be allowed to execute an ethnic and indigenous tradition without dilution - the same argument cannot be used in the rest of UK (well for Morris dancers it could) - so one would have to find another argument for participants of a foreign art form there. There should be plenty of legal examples of this however, for example - how did Sikhs win the right to wear turbans instead of crash helmets in the 70's - what was their argument - can it be adapted? I would also ask the English Arts Council and Dance UK what they propose to do about this. Pia
One has to look closely at what traditions are under threat - if Morris dancers have to dispose of their sticks to comply with the proposed law what exemption has been applied to allow Black Rod to summons the House of Commons to the House of Lords in such an aggressive manner? Why should the civic elite be allowed to wear ceremonial swords when traditional dancers would be banned from performing? There have been far more vicious assualts with riding crops and whips in hunting ban confrontations but I do not see a ban on carrying them. Even the dance teacher carrying a radio mic could be said to be holding an offensive weapon ie a cudgel when approaching a set of dancers. A person working on a hedge with hedging shears from the public pavement could be said to be in possession of an offensive weapon but yet be equally prosecuted for not cutting back the hedge by the local highways authority. Bob McArthur Christchurch, Dorset
And of course there are bus queues and ladies with umbrellas!!!! - I would say ban the umbrella before the broad sword!!!! - Stiletto heels - definitely a dangerous weapon on the right / wrong foot. Not to speak of backpacks and shoulder bags - now there's offensive weapons if you have ever sat in a train or a bus being assaulted when people move down the aisle. I do want to keep my handbag though - I need some kind of defence. We have a lovely expression in Denmark - to shoot sparrows with canons :>) Do not pass these ideas on to the politicians in questions - they may just think they are good ideas :>) Seriously the problem is not the weapons in question, but that we are bringing up a whole generation of people who have never know the kindness of a loving touch - 20 years ago we started with wearing rubber gloves to deal with children who hurt them selves - just in case they were infectious (thus telling them that kids really are untouchables) - then nobody was allowed to deal with children on a one-to-one basis in or out of schools - just in case you were accused of something, (the child is a dangerous thing that cannot be trusted). We have stopped talking and remonstrating with children, because we could be said to attack them - or they may attach us. (So whatever the kids do is ok - there's no one stopping them doing something bad). And we cannot bend down a hug a hurting child, just in case we are accused of something (we are telling the child that we don't care about them). The result is that we have a generation of children, who cannot interact in a normal way with others - for whom kindness from strangers have never been experienced - they only get attention when they are really bad - so therefore..... Oops another hobby horse - Don't get me started of the over protection of children ..... Pia The pen is mightier than the sword!!!!
Sorry meant to add "Those oldies carrying walking sticks will also be prosecuted"> From: xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:58:59 +0100> Subject: RE: No more sword dances?> > > What Bus Queues?> > Here in Christchurch they have given us oldies the bus passes then the local bus company withdrew the service!!!> > > > > > > From: xxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:41:41 +0100> Subject: RE: No more sword dances?> > And of course there are bus queues and ladies with umbrellas!!!! - I would> say ban the umbrella before the broad sword!!!! - Stiletto heels -> definitely a dangerous weapon on the right / wrong foot. Not to speak of> backpacks and shoulder bags - now there's offensive weapons if you have ever> sat in a train or a bus being assaulted when people move down the aisle. I> do want to keep my handbag though - I need some kind of defence.> > We have a lovely expression in Denmark - to shoot sparrows with canons :>)> Do not pass these ideas on to the politicians in questions - they may just> think they are good ideas :>)> > Seriously the problem is not the weapons in question, but that we are> bringing up a whole generation of people who have never know the kindness of> a loving touch - 20 years ago we started with wearing rubber gloves to deal> with children who hurt them selves - just in case they were infectious (thus> telling them that kids really are untouchables) - then nobody was allowed to> deal with children on a one-to-one basis in or out of schools - just in case> you were accused of something, (the child is a dangerous thing that cannot> be trusted). We have stopped talking and remonstrating with children,> because we could be said to attack them - or they may attach us. (So> whatever the kids do is ok - there's no one stopping them doing something> bad). And we cannot bend down a hug a hurting child, just in case we are> accused of something (we are telling the child that we don't care about> them). The result is that we have a generation of children, who cannot> interact in a normal way with others - for whom kindness from strangers have> never been experienced - they only get attention when they are really bad -> so therefore.....> > Oops another hobby horse - Don't get me started of the over protection of> children .....> > Pia> The pen is mightier than the sword!!!!> > -----Original Message-----> From: strathspey-bounces- pia=xxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> [mailto:strathspey-bounces- pia=xxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx]On Behalf Of> Robert James Robertson McArthur> Sent: 03 June 2008 13:22> To: SCD news and discussion> Subject: RE: No more sword dances?> > > One has to look closely at what traditions are under threat - if Morris> dancers have to dispose of their sticks to comply with the proposed law what> exemption has been applied to allow Black Rod to summons the House of> Commons to the House of Lords in such an aggressive manner?> > Why should the civic elite be allowed to wear ceremonial swords when> traditional dancers would be banned from performing?> > There have been far more vicious assualts with riding crops and whips in> hunting ban confrontations but I do not see a ban on carrying them.> > Even the dance teacher carrying a radio mic could be said to be holding an> offensive weapon ie a cudgel when approaching a set of dancers.> > A person working on a hedge with hedging shears from the public pavement> could be said to be in possession of an offensive weapon but yet be equally> prosecuted for not cutting back the hedge by the local highways authority.> > Bob McArthur> Christchurch, Dorset> > > > _________________________________________________________________> Great deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today!> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/
Hi Pia, > The pen is mightier than the sword!!!! Careful - they'll ban pens! Ian Brockbank Edinburgh, Scotland xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx http://www.scottishdance.net/ Privacy & Confidentiality Notice ------------------------------------------------- This message and any attachments contain privileged and confidential information that is intended solely for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient you must not: read; copy; distribute; discuss; take any action in or make any reliance upon the contents of this message; nor open or read any attachment. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible on the following telephone number and destroy this message including any attachments. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------- Wolfson Microelectronics plc Tel: +44 (0)131 272 7000 Fax: +44 (0)131 272 7001 Web: www.wolfsonmicro.com Registered in Scotland Company number SC089839 Registered office: Westfield House, 26 Westfield Road, Edinburgh, EH11 2QB, UK
Pia wrote:
> I would also ask the English Arts Council and Dance UK what they propose to
> do about this.
I would probably try to explain the omission of traditional dance through
Hanlon's Razor (»Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained
by stupidity«). When the average politician's junior staffer is asked to come
up with possible exemptions to add to the sword ban section of the crime
bill, sports and historic reenactment are the obvious no-brainers, but the
sword dance probably doesn't weigh that heavily on public-schooled City
yuppies' minds. It's likely not that they are actively out to hurt
traditional dancing, they just need a prod in the right direction, which is
probably what the petition is about.
(Actually, what they -- or, rather, their bosses -- *really* need is a whack
on the head with a dead fish or something for getting the silly ban started
in the first place. A swordfish would be appropriate. But that's neither here
nor there.)
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
One should never underestimate corporate unpredictability - or stupidity.
-- Jonathan Corbet, on Novell's deal with Microsoft
The ethnic argument should also be valid in England and Wales. As far as I know, there are more Scots living in England than in Scotland, why should they not be allowed to practise their indigenous traditions too? As for non-Scottish Highland dancers, well... just where would you draw the line? Surely "foreign"-born children of Scottish parents should be allowed access to their ancestors' culture? I can't see anyone trying to enforce "You can only do the sword-dance if you have at least one grand-parent born in Scotland", can you? Otherwise, they'd probably have to ban non-Japanese people from practising any kind of martial art which uses weapons (e.g. Kendo archery) and so forth. Anyway, that's probably one argument in favour of getting an exemption under "sport" rather than "ethnic tradition" - it would include all the "Scottish at heart" dancers out there too :-) Cheers, Sophie (currently wrestling with HM Revenue and Customs forms clearly not made for Brits born abroad) -- Sophie Rickebusch Edinburgh, UK
I was looking at it as the traditions following the country they were from - not the people in it or away from it. I.e this is a tradition that is indigenous to this country therefore it should not be tampered with. Connecting it to people is another valid argument. Re Customs forms - are you not just bringing in personal effects? Pia
Here in Spain it is very difficult to own and possess a fire arm of any kind. When I moved here, my contaner had three, pistol, rifle, and antique rifle. Inherited, from father, through grand parents. I qualified as an expert marksman in the service, and continued to shoot with borrowed weapons for a shart time after leaving the service, got bored with the company and quit. When I moved here, my container, loaded in the U.S. was not only inventoried, but mapped. As a result, when it arrived in Spain, the easily found fire arms were confiscated, and unless I take action making them legal, they will be auctioned off at the end of 10 years. The antique rifle is fairly easy, if I ruin its value by drilling the barrel, I can have it and mount it on the wall, but his is not my idea of decoration, so would rather wait and get full value from its sale. As for the other two, I can recover the one of my choice, if I join an "Olympic" shooting team, pass a few tests, and the weapon of choice will be turned over to the armorer of my club, to be used by me only on site. If the UK government is so afraid of the misuse of swords used in sword dancing, I see no reason why they can not do the same thing, respect tradition, and pretend* to keep the population safe from angry highland dancers, roaming the streets armed with claymores. Take those spectacular displays of arms in some historic castles. Simply declare them armories where personal swords for are dancing are deposited for safe keeping, and then only issued to authorized people to be used at games. I am sure there is a similar process already in place for the use of specific firearms in the U.K.
Pia commented: | Well it matters in a legal argument - up here in Scotland I would argue tha= | t it is a human right to be allowed to execute an ethnic and indigenous tra= | dition without dilution - the same argument cannot be used in the rest of U= | K (well for Morris dancers it could) - so one would have to find another ar= | gument for participants of a foreign art form there. Actually, the familiar Scottish sword dance, and also the longsword/Rapper type sword dance, are really just part of a tradition that was once common all over Europe, and still exists in lots of areas. I recently got a notice of another Sword Spectacular event this summer, in Whitby. I was at the one in 2004, also in Whitby, and they had European teams from as far away as Italy (plus a few American teams). It's interesting to see the similarities and differences that developed in various areas. It's fairly obvious that they are all variants of the same ideas, probably because people see each others' dances and steal ideas. This has been going on probably since swords were invented, and there's really no way to trace the history of it all. -- What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
Well boys will be boys, wherever they are - it's logic - If you have won - you jump up and down, flinging your arms above your head - if you have a sword you must jump over and/or across it:>) It doesn't really matter who started it or not - it is making the traditions live on that is the important thing. Pia
Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory
research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any
"proposed" UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of
any such proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords. If
there are any criminal solicitors or advocates (lovely phrase) on
Strathspey, would one of them tell me where I might find the text of the
proposed bill? Or, if anyone else has detailed knowledge, please
contact me. Just curious.
Mike
--
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Yes, so it was introduced in 2005 and became law in 2006 --- I think it is a bit late to worry about it now, especially as it doesn't seem to have had any effect on people doing sword dancing. Malcolm Malcolm L Brown York (UK) > -----Original Message----- > From: strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx > [mailto:strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx] On Behalf Of
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Norma and Mike Briggs <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory > research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any "proposed" > UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of any such > proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords. The new change is: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110810324_en_1 Which adds "curved blades over 50cm" This currently impacts other traditional dancers, such as belly dancers, who use curved middle-eastern scimitars as part of their dancing, more than say Highland dancers who use straight blades. See also: http://www.akct.org/page29.html which mentions straight blades might be included. The goal here is to get dancing props, carried or to be used by dancers, added to the specific list of exemptions. Not that I expect to carry any highland dance swords to GB, N Ireland, or Wales. Keith Graham xxx@xxxx.xxx
Thanks Graham, as mentioned in my post, this thread seems to have been based on a misinterpretation of the actual situation, as Briggs and I suspected. As there are exemptions, I am sure that the controlled public display of swords for sword dancing is not endangered, nor is it illegal to borrow someone else´s to practice. It is probably a good thing to have some oversight reminders from an insurance company. I myself have seen young kids playing Errol Flynn with swords between competitions, at games, so someone besides a passive parent should have some valid reason to encourage safety. As with many laws, I suspect that this will not be aggressively enforced, but should the local authorities see a potential problem it is probably a good law to fall back on. Sort of the equivalent of the fact that most traffic authorities are not particularly bothered if you are exceeding the speed limit by less then 5mph in optimum conditions, but rather quick to enforce the letter of the law when visibility is zero.
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 6:23 PM, xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Thanks Graham, as mentioned in my post, this thread seems to have been > based on a misinterpretation of the actual situation, as Briggs and I > suspected. As there are exemptions, I am sure that the controlled > public display of swords for sword dancing is not endangered, nor is it > illegal to borrow someone else´s to practice. The biggest problem is that it is now illegal to import or sell the items described, which covers the scimitars usually used for belly dancing. And the authorities have not been willing to include dance as an accepted exemption (even when asked specifically), so retailers can be prosecuted if they sell a belly-dance scimitar to someone for dancing. And in no case can the Scimitars be listed for anonymous sale, such as on ebay. So the problem isn't carrying or dancing with them per se, but being able to acquire them in the future at all. And the retailers, who are the ones who could go to jail or be fined, are the people who won't stock them if they can't legally be made, imported, or sold. And they're considering extended it to all straight bladed weapons over 50cm this fall according to the AKCT (Association of Knife Collectors and Traders) article. Keith Graham xxx@xxxx.xxx
To Graham´s response to me. Not sure how the process works in the U.K. so I will use a Calfornia model. There, a act is passed and signed into law. The problem comes in the next step when the administrative code is written, which determines how the law is actually applied. So if this was California, the problem is not the law but the admin code, which is fairly simple to change if it seems as stupid as this case. If stage is an existing exception, it is probably an oversight that this does not include dance. It would not take the supreme court to seek remedy, only one judge to hear an appleal for exception. If the appeal was well prepared and the judge in question intelligent in the wording of his ruling, I doubt if the state´s attourney´s would fight it, and this would sort of set a precident, so that related cases would easily get the same exception.
> From: xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Subject: Re: No more sword dances?> > To Graham´s response to me. Not sure how the process works in the U.K. > so I will use a Calfornia model.> > There, a act is passed and signed into law. The problem comes in the > next step when the administrative code is written, which determines how > the law is actually applied. So if this was California, the problem is > not the law but the admin code, which is fairly simple to change if it > seems as stupid as this case. If stage is an existing exception, it is > probably an oversight that this does not include dance. It would not > take the supreme court to seek remedy, only one judge to hear an > appleal for exception. If the appeal was well prepared and the judge in > question intelligent in the wording of his ruling, I doubt if the > state´s attourney´s would fight it, and this would sort of set a > precident, so that related cases would easily get the same exception. > > By Dick Daniel, Very interesting. The point is that knives are a real problem in the UK [mostly accepted as ex-kitchen items] and the UK government rightly wishes to do something about it. I think the reason it has such a relatively high prominence is because guns are generally unavailable to the public here, so knives/blades become the major weapon of serious aggression. This does not apply to much of the rest of the world, so their problems are primarily with guns. Can you do a Sword Dance without keen edged swords? Yes, you can do the steps, but the whole point of the dance was to demonstrate skill in not cutting your feet, so it becomes like a high wire artiste doing their act with a harness, so they can't come to any harm if they slip [Yawn]. I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An extremely skillful competitive form of dance, not designed for spectator entertainment. Of course, it's not the weapon that is really at fault, it's the user, so the real answer is to crack down hard on abuse of ownership. Problem is how???
Hi all I think highland dancing is very entertaining. I don't particularly like the competitive side of it. I have seen and heard some of the tantrums - and that is just the mothers - but the children themselves get so hyped up that they are positively manic. My two grand children did highland - and other types of dance - in a dance school - they went in for the exams to prove their skill, but they never did any competitive dancing - i.e. at Highland Games etc. I would not encourage them to go into the competitions and they did not want to either. They did the dancing for enjoyment. My oldest grand daughter has travelled overseas with a group I am involved in doing her highland dancing. She concentrated on the Highland Fling and the Sword Dance. Her favourite was the Sword dance. My husband made a special case for her sword to travel in and we never had any problems taking it with us. It was declared and put with 'special items' or 'fragile items'. The audiences and cultures we performed for really enjoyed her dancing and she has even had a standing ovation and given a special gift from a mayor of one of the villages we performed in. The dance teacher has to order these swords from India. My point in this is that I don't understand how it is not entertaining. Agnes Macmichael West Lothian, Scotland
In my [admittedly limited ] experience, Agnes is absolutely right. I was dancing in Bath and decided to enter the 'National' dance class at the Bristol Eisteddfod. I was 16 and so was competing in the '16years and over' class with about 8 lassies from Bristol dancing schools.When I was declared the winner, the atmosphere from the mums was absolutely poisonous. This was repeated when I again won the following year, so I decided to stop before I was 'kneecapped' or worse. I think that there were two problems: 1) I was an outsider, and 2) they had probably been competing against each other from a tender age in the several dance classes, and had established a pecking order as to who would probably win which class, and I upset that. Not on one of those occasions, but at the end of my very first demonstration of solo swords, I clipped the hilt as I was backstepping out and the point came up to about 45 degrees before gravity asserted itself. A frisson certainly went through the audience - while the edge was not particularly sharp, the point certainly was. This links with Pia's comments of "a bit of Wow." and " but phew they didn't." Andrew Smith, Bristol, UK.
Andrew Smith wrote:
> Not on one of those occasions, but at the end of my very first
> demonstration of solo swords, I clipped the hilt as I was backstepping out
> and the point came up to about 45 degrees before gravity asserted itself. A
> frisson certainly went through the audience - while the edge was not
> particularly sharp, the point certainly was.
I wouldn't want to show my face (let alone legs) on stage at a highland dance
competition but I've done my share of sword dancing. In my experience, what
happens is that you either kick the swords out of kilter or else step down on
the flat of a sword from above, neither of which have much potential for
serious injury beyond that inherent in Highland dancing (without swords) to
begin with. The most dangerous bit, as Andrew describes, is probably the
hilt.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
A vibration is a motion that cannot make up its mind which way it wants to go.
-- Junior high school science essay
Hi Dick, > I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An > extremely skillful competitive form of dance, not designed > for spectator entertainment. I have never danced competitively, but whenever we include a bit of Highland in a performance (in particular a sword dance) it always gets a VERY good reception. It's different, it's showy, it's got the bagpipes. I recently performed the sword dance at my daughter's school (they had a week of celebrating diversity, and the teacher in charge of the week dances in the same SCD class as me and managed to twist my arm so that they could celebrate the local culture as well), and the kids were delighted. They were particularly interested in the prop (which had an edge that had never been sharpened). My daughter was later sent home with a thank you card which included a couple of portraits of me by pupils. So, competitive Highland I cannot speak about, but my experience is that audiences always like a bit of Highland in a dem. Cheers, Ian Brockbank Edinburgh, Scotland xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx http://www.scottishdance.net/ Privacy & Confidentiality Notice ------------------------------------------------- This message and any attachments contain privileged and confidential information that is intended solely for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient you must not: read; copy; distribute; discuss; take any action in or make any reliance upon the contents of this message; nor open or read any attachment. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible on the following telephone number and destroy this message including any attachments. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------- Wolfson Microelectronics plc Tel: +44 (0)131 272 7000 Fax: +44 (0)131 272 7001 Web: www.wolfsonmicro.com Registered in Scotland Company number SC089839 Registered office: Westfield House, 26 Westfield Road, Edinburgh, EH11 2QB, UK
Dick Daniel wrote: | Can you do a Sword Dance without keen edged swords? Yes, you can do the st= | eps, but the whole point of the dance was to demonstrate skill in not cutti= | ng your feet, so it becomes like a high wire artiste doing their act with a= | harness, so they can't come to any harm if they slip [Yawn].=20=20 Hmmm ... In my experience (mostly in North America, with a few trips to the UK) the swords used by dancers have never been sharp. In fact, if you get close enough to see them clearly, you'll usually see all sorts of nicks in the edge. Some dancers do like to keep the swords polished and shiny, since they're for show, but they're more likely to dull the edge than sharpen it. The audiences know it's a show, after all, and nobody sensible expects the dancers to endanger themselves, aside from a few bruises now and then. It is common for teachers to warn newcomers to sword dancing that the swords may not be sharp, but they are hard steel, and you should expect a few good bumps and scrapes until you learn to handle them. -- What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
What concerns me most is how possession of a sword for artistic or traditional reasons may/can be interpreted by the local law enforcement authorities. Last year a group of our club members performed a Guard of Honour at the wedding of a members daughter much to the delight of the wedding party and other guests. This was outside the church in the centre of town. It would appear that we could have run into problems under the 2006 legislation dependent on how this occasion was regarded by a local beat officer and how 'difficult' that officer decided to be on the day. Just yesterday the front page of our local paper was devoted to the case of someone getting a two year custodial sentence for supposedly innocently hanging a shotgun (sawn off!!!) as a wall ornament and with no ammunition available in the premises. Not the best place to secure a firearm, legally held or not but how many buildings with public access do the same with firearms as museum display items and how many swords are hung on display? Innocent action or not? Who Knows? It does concern me that there is too much ambiguity about the current legislation in England and Wales and it is important that this is clarified properly to safeguard the innocent participant from over- zealous law enforcement bodies. Bob McArthur Bournemouth, UK
Here in Spain that type of cutthroat competition is pretty much associated only with football. Not to the extent of the Texas cheerleader mom who hired a hit man to attack the mother of her daughter´s closest competitor a few years back. Recently, I saw the opposite. We had an all day basket ball tournament, teams from all over the island kids 14 and under. One team from a distant village was really pathetic. was losing each game. Imagine getting up at 06:00 taking a bus in the dark for an all day event, and going home that night in the dark, cold and sweaty, and losing every event. Their last game was around 18:00, and they were losing about 52 to 0. The other coach on an ego trip, kept his first string in running up the score, where most coaches would pull the first string, to give his poorer players more game time. Smart anyway because it would give the team more depth for injuries and the next season. At some point, parents from his own team started booing their own baskets, pretty soon the entre gym was booing him. I suppose he found out later, but the look on his face at the time indicated that he had no clue as to the message.
Pia, have you ever seen the film "strictly dancing" - Cinderella story about the behind the scenes at a ballroom dance studio. Predictable plot, but enjoyable because of my SCD and highland experience. The protagonist is the young girl who starts out looking like a loser with bad hair, dumpy clothes, and thick glasses. She works as a janitor to pay for her lessons, and has a crush on the son of the owner of the studio, who is already a star. You know the rest.
Of course I have !!!!! - bad hair, dumpy clothes and thick glasses - that's me - working as a janitor - No building would stand for that - and my dance instructor had daughters. I also blotted my copy book by saying no to the first boy who asked me to dance with him - because I wanted to dance with a girl :>) the boys line up there - girls line up here then 'right boys - go for it'. I thought my mother would kill me :>) After 14 years of competitive dancing, I much prefer SCD. Pia
| Happens in ball room dance too - my mother was asked to withdraw me and my | partner from a competition because we were sure to win :>) | Mums eh!!!!! | | Pia There is a widespread tradition in both dance and music contests, that when someone wins too often, you make them a judge. Few people ever turn down such an honor, and it takes them out of the competition. -- What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?