Jan. 28, 2006, 11:09 p.m. (Message 43917)
For 14 months I was a participant in a local Scottish Dance group. The advertising for this group billed it as "Scottish Folk Dancing". The girls of the group billed it as "Scottish Country Dancing". Is there a difference n the two names o was that just a fluke? I find lots of references to Sottish Country Dancing but hardly any to Scottish Folk Dance. I'm just trying to learn. James Leonard Rooke http://users.chartertn.net/jleonard Jim
Jan. 29, 2006, 1:36 a.m. (Message 43918, in reply to message 43917)
Very old issue. Miss M used to stress that SCD was not folk dancing but ballroom dancing. Obviously she had her own difinitions that allowed her to think that these terms as generally understood are not necessarily exclusive. While she would probably never admit to my reasoning, but she was correct in saying that they are not the same as SCD does not meet the normal criteria for folk dancing. She had another reason that I have deduced from conversations with her in addition to her lectures. In her mind, "folk dancing" was peasant dancing, again not necessarily according to most definitions, and Scotland did not have peasants. My suggestion to this is to come up with a good word for all of those highlanders who were cleared into the cities and the colonies. Using the local terms here in Spain, under the general heading of dance we have "ball de bot" (folk dancing), "ball de saló" (ball room dancing), and sevillanas (dancing from Spain, but not the ball de bot that are the regional folk dances). Ballroom dancing does not apply as a criteria here as all dancing of all three types is done outside, though the only dancing I have not seen inside is folk dancing (ball de bot). Under the classification of ball de bot, there are 4 types, all of which share music and steps, but not necessarily style with Spain. These are the jota and bolero, which are considered peasant dances, and fandangos, which are in the style of the "senyoria", the last, the mateixa, is freestyle couple dancing, without ever having a formation, but using both steps from the other three, but also shading off into the type of dancing done at rock concerts. Even if we pretend that SCD was ever folk dancing, once the Society got a hold of it, it would cease to be since the very nature of a controling organization tends to put a stop to the traditional folk process.
Jan. 29, 2006, 2:05 a.m. (Message 43923, in reply to message 43917)
> For 14 months I was a participant in a local Scottish Dance group. The > advertising for this group billed it as "Scottish Folk Dancing". The girls > of the group billed it as "Scottish Country Dancing". Is there a difference > n the two names o was that just a fluke? I find lots of references to > Sottish Country Dancing but hardly any to Scottish Folk Dance. I'm just > trying to learn. > > > James Leonard Rooke Careful James Certain people might get offended if you refer to Scottish Folk Dance! That's why we call it Scottish Country Dancing. It has the connotation of 'Balls' and 'smart' to many. Regards, Ron
Jan. 29, 2006, 4:09 a.m. (Message 43925, in reply to message 43923)
At 01:05 AM 1/29/2006 +0000, you wrote: > Careful James > Certain people might get offended if you refer to >Scottish Folk Dance! That's why we call it Scottish Country Dancing. >It has the connotation of 'Balls' and 'smart' to many. > Regards, Ron Thanks for your warning to be careful using Scottish Folk dance. The person that was responsible for the clubs advertising wasn't a member and the girls (ladies) who were the main members made up badges calling it SCD which even I considered more appropriate. James Leonard Rooke http://users.chartertn.net/jleonard Jim
Jan. 29, 2006, 4:14 p.m. (Message 43928, in reply to message 43925)
Isn't the word 'Folk' more a european continent derivative? 'Folkedans' etc which to me at least means 'traditional' - and isn't Scottish Country Dancing just a style of Scottish Traditional Dancing? Highland, Step, Orkney etc being some of the others? And when I say traditional, I don't necessarily mean that it is old and unchanged - I am a firm believer that 'traditional' evolves. Pia
Jan. 29, 2006, 3:33 p.m. (Message 43927, in reply to message 43923)
Are we not splitting hairs again? What is the definition of a "folk dance"? A quick reference check and from Encarta Dictionary: a dance that is traditional to a culture, community, or country. I think SCD meets that definition. Gary Lindsey Flying Ghillies SCD Dayton, Ohio, USA www.rscdscincinnati.org
Jan. 29, 2006, 4:14 p.m. (Message 43929, in reply to message 43927)
Gary - you just ruined a good hair splitting session !!!!! :>) Pia
Jan. 29, 2006, 4:47 p.m. (Message 43932, in reply to message 43927)
Your theory breaks down when it comes to the word "tradition" in conjunction with the other words. Country dancing was and is traditional to the U.K. community, but Scottish country dancing never existed before the Society, which made up the term and created something called "scottish country dancing" which is different from the traditional country dances in Scotland. Second problem is that it is a tradition only within the SCD community, which does not qualify as "folk" in the usual sense of the word, since it excludes the other Scottish folk who don´t want to go to classes taught by its teachers, or dance according to their traditions that do not agree with the RSCDS. On the other hand, much of the dancing promoted by the EFDSS does qualify as folk, since their actions have been to record and publish, but not legislate a new non preexisting style. Miss M, and quite rightly so, did not like were folk dancing, as tradition, was headed in Scotland. As a result, she created her own form of dance by selectively sampling and interpreting pre-existing traditional dancing in Scotland. This fits neither the terms "folk" nor "traditional".
Jan. 29, 2006, 5:51 p.m. (Message 43934, in reply to message 43932)
It is a bit chicken and egg - when 'traditional dancing' started - way back whenever, it was probably not called 'traditional' dancing, but 'some new-fangled ideas that those young whipper snappers brought in' or words to that effect. Traditional is in itself a development of something - just because we have documented it better than people did hundreds of years ago, and because we can remember the person starting it, doesn't in my opinion mean that it is not a tradition. Tradition in my opinon does not equate with dead and gone and unchanging within a set time-frame, but is a living, developing form of expressive arts with roots in the country/culture/community it started from. Pia
Jan. 29, 2006, 5:54 p.m. (Message 43935, in reply to message 43917)
In a message dated 1/29/2006 11:52:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, xxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx writes: Tradition in my opinon does not equate with dead and gone and unchanging within a set time-frame, but is a living, developing form of expressive arts with roots in the country/culture/community it started from. I have heard that 'tradition' is what everyone did 15 years ago. Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
Jan. 30, 2006, 6:21 a.m. (Message 43946, in reply to message 43917)
The debate about whether RSCDS style dancing is folk dancing has always bothered me a bit. I grew up doing "country dancing" in England. I don't think I ever doubted that this was folk dancing. A little later in life, living far from the UK, I was happy to discover that I could continue doing this kind of dancing by joining a Scottish country dancing group. The dancing was similar in the sense that I knew many of the basic figures (hays/reels, stars/hands across, circles, promenade, etc.) and the music (which I also loved) was similar too. So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the overall British folk dance scene. One difference is this: it was easy to do "English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do SCD on grass! Chris, New York.
Jan. 30, 2006, 3:27 p.m. (Message 43951, in reply to message 43946)
I think the answer may be that in Scotland there are balls where SCD is the main form of dancing and that SCD remains an active, living form of dance. In a sense it is analogous to Scottish Highland attire which is living attire not folk costume. (Where else is this true?) Actually much depends on how one defines "folk" dancing. One could argue that the untutored dancing created by teens (especially that of the late 1960s) is really folk dancing. The same arguments could be made for Country & Western, Cajun, Swing, Waltz, Fox Trot, Latin styles, etc. These were all created in particular localities and spread and underwent refinements and stylization. For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century, went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is living dance in the same sense as SCD. If your definition requires a form of dance to be in the "popular culture" then maybe SCD is "folk" dancing in a limited sense (especially in the USA where it is associated with the Scottish Heritage movement). Today, the popular culture is largely governed by the media, especially the American media. One would suspect that in Scotland this would not be true and SCD may remain in the popular culture(?). Yours aye, Tom Mungall Baton Rouge, La, USA
Jan. 30, 2006, 10:15 p.m. (Message 43963, in reply to message 43951)
"In a sense it is analogous to Scottish Highland attire which is living attire not folk costume. (Where else is this true?)" Pure RSCDS and twee propaganda, where else, by the same criteria, almost everywhere in Europe. During my extended stays in Scotland, outside SCD balls, I could go months without ever seeing a kilt (staying in St Andrews, in Edinburgh 3 times a week, once a week in Perth, occasional visits to Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling. About the same odds as seeing a kilt in London. Here in Spain, my village, other neighboring villages, in Palma 3 times per week, I see "national dress" at least twice a week. And interesting enough very seldom at folk dance events, where the dem teams only wear these clothes while actually doing a dem, quickly changing into civies for social dancing. National dress is regularly seen in church, and worn by musicians about half the time. It is also the uniform, or at least part of the uniform for many local, non international sports. Another difference is that I know of only one shop that sells a cheap version of it for tourists, most worn by locals are hand made and handed down within families. OK, I live in one of Spain´s 18 regions, but from experience, the same seems to be true in Aragó, Catalunya, and Asturias, and across the border in Portugal.
Jan. 30, 2006, 10:38 p.m. (Message 43965, in reply to message 43963)
Richard, It's good to know about Spain. One would hope to see this true throughout the world. However, I've seen Scottish attire from the Borders (Melrose at weddings) on through to the Highlands. However, I'll warrent it is usually for special occasions like weddings, etc. Tom
Jan. 30, 2006, 11:14 p.m. (Message 43968, in reply to message 43965)
And then ther'e the boy in the US who was kicked out from his prom because he was wearing a kilt (this was on national news a few weeks ago). Etienne
Jan. 30, 2006, 11:17 p.m. (Message 43969, in reply to message 43968)
Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy? Mike + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Mike and Norma Briggs + + 1519 Storytown Road + + Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA + + +1 608 835 0914 (voice) +1 608 835 0924 (fax) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Jan. 31, 2006, 3:10 a.m. (Message 43973, in reply to message 43969)
Nope. The principal didn't want no guy in a skirt, period, even though the vice principal had given the OK. I think it happened in Texas, but that's the jist of what happened. Etienne
Jan. 31, 2006, 4:01 a.m. (Message 43974, in reply to message 43973)
It was in Jackson, Missouri. According to the student, when the principal's told him he was violating the school dress code he told him "he didn't want anybody looking like a clown," although the principal later stated that he did not recall saying that. Earlier this month the student received a letter of apology from the district superintendent which stated that the district would train staff on proper application of the dress code. The great irony is that the principal's name is McClard. Carl Spain Waco TX USA
Jan. 31, 2006, 5:36 a.m. (Message 43975, in reply to message 43974)
> > >The great irony is that the principal's name is McClard. Sure it wasn't McClod
Jan. 31, 2006, 10:40 a.m. (Message 43985, in reply to message 43974)
Carl Spain wrote: > [...] that the district would train staff on proper application > of the dress code. Right. About ten compulsory viewings of »Braveheart« should do the trick. Incidentally, anyone who thinks the common or garden-variety sgian dubh is a weapon should try stabbing or cutting something with one, like a piece of fruit. I know that the only type of injury you could inflict on somebody using *my* sgian dubh would be a contusion. (Then again, I wouldn't want to have to discuss the finer points of Scottish attire with anyone who thinks a nail file or crotcheting needle is a lethal weapon, so if I'm flying the sg. d. goes into the checked suitcase.) Now, on the other hand, those bagpipes ... Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx The sublime and the ridiculous are often so nearly related, that it is difficult to class them separately. One step above the sublime makes the ridiculous, and one step above the ridiculous makes the sublime again. -- Thomas Paine
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:10 p.m. (Message 44001, in reply to message 43985)
Since Anselm brought up pipes, I have an OT to make on the subject. While most SCD types I know seem to be aware that the pipes are not unique to Scotland, most non SCD types, seem to think that the entire Scottish nation spends half their time marching up and down the brae playing pipes and wearing a kilt. But their is a flip side to this problem, that I have noticed. Outside of Spain, Scottish pipers seem to have two very bad habits. 1. they tend not to play the more challenging pipe music, preferring military marches and Scottish tunes. 2. they seem to have a need to explain their instrument all the time, as if to justify it, and their existance. This suggests to me that these pipers have left the "Scottish" folk and joined the "folk of Scottish pipers" (similar to RSCDS folk dancers, leaving the folk dancing of Scotland for the dancing of the RSCDS folk). Here, where live piping is an element the the cultural life, not requiring a specific costume, or performing unit, it retains more of its folk elements. While we have pipes for weddings in the same context as in Scotland, for our "morris" dancing, along with the pipe and tabor, they are the only instrument used for performances, the offertory during mass, processionals, etc. (public dances are use more eclectic musical instruments). Since none of the Scots I have met here do not speak Mallorquí, they always have a translator, the reaction to which is "duh, why is this guy talking down to us, everyone knows how pipes work - and this Scottish guy does not even know how to remove the changer and play it with his mouth, when tonguing is required". This fits into the same type of selfconscious humor that some people wearing kilts have to use when speaking to the uninitiated.
Jan. 31, 2006, 10:04 p.m. (Message 44007, in reply to message 44001)
Of course they walk up and down when they play, Richard - they are trying to get away from the sound. Pia
Jan. 31, 2006, 1:58 p.m. (Message 43989, in reply to message 43973)
The kid wanted to wear shorts to school but was told he could not because it was not the time of year for shorts wearing. He noted girls were allowed to wear skirts anytime of year, so he decided to wear skirts instead of shorts as a protest. The kilt came out at this point. Mary, Chicago, IL ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Etienne Ozorak" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> To: "SCD news and discussion" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Subject: Re: Scottish Country Dancing VS Scottish Folk Dancing Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:10:08 -0500 (EST) Nope. The principal didn't want no guy in a skirt, period, even though the vice principal had given the OK. I think it happened in Texas, but that's the jist of what happened. Etienne > Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh > violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy? > > Mike > > > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > + Mike and Norma Briggs + > + 1519 Storytown Road + > + Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA + > + +1 608 835 0914 (voice) +1 608 835 0924 (fax) + > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > _______________________________________________ > http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey >
Jan. 31, 2006, 3:45 p.m. (Message 43991, in reply to message 43989)
Mary Pankonen wrote: > The kid wanted to wear shorts to school but was told he could not because > it was not the time of year for shorts wearing. He should move to Scotland. When I was living there, the school kids seemed to be wearing shorts in mid-December. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Great warmth is not limited to a dancer's legs. -- Keith Eric Grant
Jan. 31, 2006, 4:34 p.m. (Message 43992, in reply to message 43991)
Of course Anselm - you can't possible wan't your son to wear long trousers until he is 11 :>) Pia
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:42 p.m. (Message 44005, in reply to message 43992)
At my old high school, there was a Samoan community that owned an entire street near their church. They were the ones who ultimately broke the dress code. In protest about the girls being forbidden to wear pants, which was some how bad, when it was OK for some of them to wear skirts no wider than a "hell´s angels belt", the Samoan started comming to school in sarongs, when the administration complained they forced them to back down as this was ethnic discrimination against their national dress, during the process a lot of wannabe scots started wearing their sister´s plaid skirts.
Jan. 31, 2006, 10:16 p.m. (Message 44008, in reply to message 44005)
On my latest dance trip to Little Rock, AK my bag was searched. Because I had a "replica weapon". It was a kilt pin with the sword/shield/clan crest so common here in America. (I don't know if the Scots actually use those style pins.) It is made of pewter, and the pin to attach it to the kilt is significantly more dangerous than the sword part. And the person doing the search had to ask two different supervisors if they would have to confiscate it. (They decided not to.) Simply amazing. (Good thing I didn't have my Sign Dubh with me.) Keith Graham Atlanta, GA
Feb. 1, 2006, 12:30 a.m. (Message 44010, in reply to message 44008)
Speaking of a "sgean dubh". At one time I was a writer for the St Andrews Citizen doing music reviews. In one of my reviews, I reported on a group that called itself, "Skiin´ Doo", which is how I spelled it, but on Thursday when the paper came out they had changed the spelling to "Sgean Dubh". Unfortunately they did not look at the accompanying photo, where the lads all had matching t-sirts, showing a pigeon on skiis.
Feb. 2, 2006, 1:07 a.m. (Message 44033, in reply to message 44010)
Goss wrote:- Speaking of a "sgean dubh". At one time I was a writer for the St Andrews Citizen doing music reviews. In one of my reviews, I reported on a group that called itself, "Skiin´ Doo", which is how I spelled it, but on Thursday when the paper came out they had changed the spelling to "Sgean Dubh". Unfortunately they did not look at the accompanying photo, where the lads all had matching t-sirts, showing a pigeon on skiis. > Oh, yes. I like that! :)) Regards, Ron
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:36 p.m. (Message 44003, in reply to message 43991)
This story reminds me of a TV show back when women were starting to wear trousers in the work place where a dress code had required that they wear dresses in the past. The protagonist was meeting her boyfriend (both lawyers) for lunch in an upscale restaurant (where the waiters wore the tux costume). She was wearing dress pants over which was a long shirt tied at the waist. The waiter said, sorry we can not serve women wearing pants here. So she stood up and took them off, leaving only the shirt that was longer than most minis at the time.
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:39 p.m. (Message 44004, in reply to message 43989)
Actually, the "skirt" thing is a different one and in New Jersey. Gary Lindsey Flying Ghillies SCD Dayton, Ohio, USA www.rscdscincinnati.org
Jan. 31, 2006, 7:41 a.m. (Message 43978, in reply to message 43969)
"Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy?" Mike, I Am assuming that this is a joke. In most cases such as this barred from the prom would be the least of his problems. A long time ago, before all this concern about terrorists and air travel, an L.A. girl won some competition in Scotland for which the prize was a broadsword. The cabin attendant simply took it up to the cockpit for safe keeping during the flight.
Jan. 31, 2006, 11:03 a.m. (Message 43988, in reply to message 43978)
The high school in Jackson, MO, by the way, is McIntosh High School. Apparently that was not the only incident of kiltophobia in the US last year: "Eric Schulzentenberg was stunned when school chiefs in Alexandria, Minnesota, ruled his Highland dress did not comply with their dress code." Guardian, April 27 2005. This is the one that I was thinking of: "A schoolboy who dressed up for his high school prom in full Scottish highland regalia, including the skean-dhu - a small dagger kept in the sock - has been banned from attending his school for carrying a weapon. The 16-year-old was unable to persuade staff at his school in Holt, Michigan,that the item was as accepted a part of his costume as the kilt and sporran, which he also wore." Guardian, July 26 2001. Perhaps they manage these affairs better in England: http://www.promdress.co.uk/suits/mainpage.htm Mike + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Mike and Norma Briggs + + 1519 Storytown Road + + Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA + + +1 608 835 0914 (voice) +1 608 835 0924 (fax) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:31 p.m. (Message 44002, in reply to message 43988)
"16-year-old was unable to persuade staff at his school in Holt, Michigan,that the item was as accepted a part of his costume as the kilt and sporran" I am not surprised, having been in Holt, Michigan were many of the pickup trucks have gun racks as a part of the local tradition. I would say, OK accepted, but only as an accessory, not a requirement. It would be pretty dumb to believe that this kid was so unconscious of where he was and the rules as to wear a knife in his sock by accident. Where I live, it is common to carry a knife, and most males do. The comon knife is either a generic one similar to a old straight edge razor, or one specific to one´s needs, or profession. The one I carry has about a 3.4 inch blade curved into an arc of about 60º. Its original purpose was for cutting grapes of the vine, but is good for pealing fruit, cutting bread, etc. (unless one eats in a restaurant with a table cloth here, you have to ask for a knife when eating out, or at a friend´s house, as the only tool provided is a fork, and maybe a spoon if needed. Knowing the possibility of not getting where I want to go, I make a habit of leaving it home when I fly. I have only once gotten into trouble. With the terrorist thing, local government has become more security conscious. In Palma, I needed a booklet with the schedule of a week long fiesta. The tourist offices were out, so I went to the city hall. 1. Asked the guard if he had any - he pointed to the empty rack. 2. Suggested that the local branch of the public library (off the ground floor lobby), had one - he said probably. 3. Asked if I could just run in a get it - he said no, I would have to park my bicycle across the street instead of leaning it against the lamp post in my plane site (went to chain bike). 4. Entered building and told to run back pack through scanner (about 30 feet from the rack outside the library where I could see the programs I wanted). 5. My back pack had a pair of scisors - so he inspected the bag and said that I would have to leave them with him. 6. Asked if I could simply leave the pack as I walked across the lobby and back - no the scisors had to be put in a plastic bag, for which I was given a chit. 7. Crossed the lobby picked up the program and returned with my chit - questioned, what did my scisors look like (?????). Got my scisors and left. Irony was that there was only a metal detector for backpacks and purses, and I had my knife in my pocket. On the subject of security, my last German trip was worse. In the Stutgart airport (coming home from the Rechsberg weekend). The scanner was at the rope entrance to the Iberia line for checking in. I ran my bag through and passed. About 4 people ahead of me, was one of those people for whom life is never simple, and who seemed not to understand that the airline personnel would be unable to help him at that location and suggested that he might want to go to the counter where one purchases tickets. After about 10 minutes of this, I unzipped the top flap, and leaving it open, pulled out a book and started to read. 15 minutes later, when I was now second in line, I got a tap on the shoulder by the security guard who told me that my carryon was unzipped. I thanked him and said that I knew and would be putting my book back when I got to the window. He said that I could not do that because then I would have to get back in line and have my luggage rescanned. When I suggested that he simply scan the book, since he had already scanned the bag from which it had come, he looked confused.
Jan. 31, 2006, 7:36 a.m. (Message 43976, in reply to message 43965)
Special occasions. I have seen tuxes at weddings, but no one would equate them with a folk costume or national dress. I was married in scotland, and, besides me, only the best man and father-of-the-bride wore kilts, both rented (though the father liked his so much that he later bought one). I suspect that the majority of kilts seen at weddings do not belong to the wearer.
Jan. 31, 2006, 8:52 p.m. (Message 43999, in reply to message 43979)
There is an element missing from your tux example, in that the tux represents no particular folk - so I would not consider them national dress, nor would I things such as levis. You seem to be adding an element to the concept of folk costume, that only seems to exist in traveling dem teams. Recently, I have been to some folk festivals here, and then been to the countries of origin. Yes, many of the traveling teams, have a costume within a narrow range of variation, in every case where I have been to their base, the range gets much wider. On the local scene, two women with the same costume at the same event gets about the same reaction as the mother of the bride and the mother of the groom showing up at a wedding in the same dress. The range for men´s costumes in each case here is much smaller than that of the women. Last year, there was a Serbian group performing around the island (this is how groups attending festivals pay for their trip). When they were dancing serbian dances of their area, each costume was different, however when they were doing Bosnian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, or Hungarian dances from Serbia, the costumes were pretty much alike. "essence of traditional costumes is that everyone be dressed identically." Not so, in the villages I have visited, and like variation in SCD, the norm is always evolving, which is a part of the folk process, unless it has been standardized by the Royal [name] [type] Socitey. "men think themselves as above hoi polloi" Exactly, the tux is a symbol of a class, not a folk. In the same way that the kilt, used to be a symbol of low class (hard to ride a horse wearing one), and has become one of middle or upper class, more so depending on the grandiosity of the jacket, less so depending on the amount of hardwear. . Blue-jeans, yes a uniform, but not of a folk, but an attitude, class, and or age group. "Why are kilt becoming popular again for special events?" Lots of reasons, including ... 1. lack of understanding by young fascists who think that being Celtic, white, and unemployed is some how related to race in an unhistoric way. 2. outsiders who feel a need to identify. 3. foreign nobility who like to pretend they belong, 4. SCD dancers who can´t dance and compensate by purchasing an expensive outfit. 5. And those of us who enjoy SCD and were indoctrinated in wearing it to dances. Of course there are too many positive reasons to mention. BTW, pardon my chauvinism, one of the Scottish pipers at our local piping festival was a woman, wearing the complete outfit. I am sorry but it takes a very good tailor to make a man´s kilt fit a woman´s body. 'cause they let you thumb your nose at uniformity and still look formal and correct (not to mention, dashing, handsome, sexy, distinguished ...) Martin, in Grenoble, France.
Feb. 1, 2006, 9:58 a.m. (Message 44013, in reply to message 43999)
I hesitated before writing : " the essence of traditional costumes is that everyone be dressed identically" as I have obviously not been all round the world, but my limited experience is just that. They are a uniform, evolving, but leveling. Unlike the costumes of traveling dem groups that need to add variety and colour to please their audiences. Richard's expeerience is different from mine. I would also add that those "Scots" that wear the kilt have also turned the national garment into something like a folk costume by insisting that it must be worn with certain standardized jackets and accessories. At least the rugby fans wear their kilts with everyday sweaters & t-shirts, just as they would if wearing two-legged garments. (If you are wondering what is the difference between Scots and "Scots", let me say Richard would probably have used the word "wannabe". I have a feeling that, across the Atlantic, they are fussier about detail than we are on the eastern side) Martin, in Grenoble, France.
Jan. 31, 2006, 9:57 a.m. (Message 43981, in reply to message 43976)
In message <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>, Richard Goss <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes >I suspect that the majority of kilts seen at weddings do not belong to >the wearer. A good rule is green kilt + white socks - may be hired. -- Bryan McAlister
Jan. 31, 2006, 8:56 p.m. (Message 44000, in reply to message 43981)
Another clue, is whether or how the man crosses his legs when he sits, or how he is always careful to keep his knees togather. The real test, is how he gets into a car. For example, one of the primary reasons the steering in Scotland is on the right side is because one need not get one´s knickers in a twist if he is the driver, but passengers have to be careful or they end up riding on a wad of twisted tartan.
Jan. 31, 2006, 10:08 a.m. (Message 43983, in reply to message 43976)
You would be surprised how many young people now own a kilt - in stead of renting it - although renting is still the norm - mostly because if your son is growing like a week and has grown out of all the family hand me downs, it is the only thing to do until he has stopped growing. At the World-cup in football some years ago, it was announced that the kilt-makers could not keep up with demand. You see people wear kilts at Rugby matches, football matches, high-school dances, weddings, ceilidhs, New-Year parties. Pia Special occasions. I have seen tuxes at weddings, but no one would equate them with a folk costume or national dress. I was married in scotland, and, besides me, only the best man and father-of-the-bride wore kilts, both rented (though the father liked his so much that he later bought one). I suspect that the majority of kilts seen at weddings do not belong to the wearer. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/242 - Release Date: 26/01/2006
Jan. 30, 2006, 3:52 p.m. (Message 43952, in reply to message 43946)
Is there an SCE group in the Bonita Springs/Fort Myers/Naples area of Florida? xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx wrote: The debate about whether RSCDS style dancing is folk dancing has always bothered me a bit. I grew up doing "country dancing" in England. I don't think I ever doubted that this was folk dancing. A little later in life, living far from the UK, I was happy to discover that I could continue doing this kind of dancing by joining a Scottish country dancing group. The dancing was similar in the sense that I knew many of the basic figures (hays/reels, stars/hands across, circles, promenade, etc.) and the music (which I also loved) was similar too. So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the overall British folk dance scene. One difference is this: it was easy to do "English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do SCD on grass! Chris, New York.
Jan. 30, 2006, 1:23 p.m. (Message 43949, in reply to message 43917)
In a message dated 1/30/2006 12:24:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes: ...........................So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the overall British folk dance scene. One difference is this: it was easy to do "English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do SCD on grass! Chris, New York. I've often suspected that English Country dancers were dancing while on Grass, probably best for Scottish Country Dancers to stick to Whiskey! : ) Gaitley
Jan. 30, 2006, 4:50 p.m. (Message 43953, in reply to message 43917)
Well, thank you for a laughing-out-loud-at-work moment! Becky Becky Sager Marietta GA USA -- xxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx wrote: In a message dated 1/30/2006 12:24:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes: ...........................So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the overall British folk dance scene. One difference is this: it was easy to do "English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do SCD on grass! Chris, New York. I've often suspected that English Country dancers were dancing while on Grass, probably best for Scottish Country Dancers to stick to Whiskey! : ) Gaitley
Jan. 30, 2006, 10:20 p.m. (Message 43964, in reply to message 43953)
LOL on the grass vs grass pun. However this quote suggests another point ""English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do in SCD". The fact that SCD style requires a certain type of floor, whereas Scottish folk dancing does not, does point out a difference caused by the removal of country dancing from the folk and into the area of a practiced art form. I know of no other national dance form that requires a special place to be performed, or for that matter the complaints about the floor not being sprung, too slippery, too hard, too bumpy, not level etc.
Feb. 2, 2006, 1:07 a.m. (Message 44031, in reply to message 43964)
On 30 Jan 2006 at 13:20, Richard Goss wrote: > LOL on the grass vs grass pun. However this quote suggests another > point ""English" country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do > in SCD". The fact that SCD style requires a certain type of floor, > whereas Scottish folk dancing does not, does point out a difference > caused by the removal of country dancing from the folk and into the > area of a practiced art form. I know of no other national dance form > that requires a special place to be performed, or for that matter the > complaints about the floor not being sprung, too slippery, too hard, > too bumpy, not level etc. After all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used to be called) and various other events I have attended over the years I have only rarely seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot. A bit damp sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to hinder the dancing. We had a teacher long ago who regularly used to tell us that if we couldn't do a Strathspey on grass, then we couldn't dance a strathspey! 'Pick up your feet and put them downagain' was another saying. He started in me the dislike I still posess of dancers sliding their feet round the floor. It's like squeaky chalk on a blackboard!
Jan. 30, 2006, 7:42 p.m. (Message 43959, in reply to message 43917)
Thomas Mungal III wrote: *For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century, went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is living dance in the same sense as SCD.* Waltz is really both, and at the same time. Go to any contradance, English country dance, or SCD event (at least around the Delaware Valley) and there is at least one *free* waltz, usually two, done throughout the evening, usually at the end and at the halftime break. The style of waltz that predominated about ten years ago when I started contradancing was referred to as *country* waltz. That's country as in the rural sense. Poor dance posture, no leading/following, no giving weight, spaghetti arms. In other words, untutored. In other words, folk. :-) Since then, most people have learned to dance a ballroom style of waltz, owing to the many workshops held over the years. But this more ballroom style still has a *natural* feel, as opposed to the dance studio variety. Steve Epstein
Jan. 30, 2006, 7:51 p.m. (Message 43960, in reply to message 43917)
Steve Epstein wrote: *Thomas Mungal III wrote: **For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century, went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is living dance in the same sense as SCD.** Oh, I re-read your post and realized we are probably saying the same thing in a different way. The difference between SCD and waltz, however, is that no organized waltz society in the manner of the RSCDS came along to *standardize* waltz. Thank God :-) Steve Epstein
Jan. 30, 2006, 10:54 p.m. (Message 43966, in reply to message 43960)
Steve, Actually in 1921, "The Dancing Times" called a conference of dance teachers together to discuss the demise of the popularity of the Waltz and from this conference the standard walk-side-close technique. So, that isn't too far from what the goals of the SCDS & later the RSCDS. BTW the waltz is an outgrowth of the Landler an Austro-German folk dance. Tom
Jan. 31, 2006, 7:38 a.m. (Message 43977, in reply to message 43966)
In Spanish country dances, "valse" is the translation for pousette.
Feb. 1, 2006, 4:43 p.m. (Message 44022, in reply to message 43960)
> Sent: 30 January 2006 18:51 > Oh, I re-read your post and realized we are probably saying the same thing in a different way. > The difference between SCD and waltz, however, is that no organized waltz society in the > manner of the RSCDS came along to *standardize* waltz. Thank God :-) > > Steve Epstein There may not have been a "Waltz Society", but there were many books written about the correct way to waltz, and people being judged in competitions - the most recent, widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a professional cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles, and got some pretty severe criticism. Malcolm Malcolm L Brown York
Feb. 1, 2006, 5:38 p.m. (Message 44023, in reply to message 43917)
Quoting mlamontbrown <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>: > widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a > professional > cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles, Oh dear, I'll have to try and forget who won before they show it here - we're about 2 years behind, the last series we had was won by a soap opera star. While we're on the subject, how about an SCD version? One could have the celebrities dancing with dem teams from different branches, doing a different dance each week (as first couple, twice through, like for the teacher's certificate). They could start with a ceilidh dance the first week, then a reel or jig with no pdb and simple figures, then gradually increase the difficulty: strathspey, more complicated figures, pdb, etc. All that with 4 RSCDS examiners to do the judging and presented by Robbie Shepard, maybe? And of course, extra brownie point to any celebrity who manages to smile and look as though they're enjoying themselves while they're dancing! :-) Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch CH - Wettswil a. A.
Feb. 2, 2006, 11:45 p.m. (Message 44061, in reply to message 44023)
Hi Sophie, They did try a similar thing with Highland Dancing for the scottish bit of BBC Children in Need (Charity Television event) in November. They had three celebs (journalist, sports reporter and soap actress) and three competitive highland dancers and they had a week to learn two dances ( Highland Fling and the Lilt). There was one judge from Strictly Come Dancing, a Highland Dance examiner and another panel member who escapes me at the moment. The result was absolutely hilarious. The sports reporter won - purely on comedy value! Seonaid Markinch, Fife Sophie Rickebusch <xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote: Quoting mlamontbrown : > widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a > professional > cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles, Oh dear, I'll have to try and forget who won before they show it here - we're about 2 years behind, the last series we had was won by a soap opera star. While we're on the subject, how about an SCD version? One could have the celebrities dancing with dem teams from different branches, doing a different dance each week (as first couple, twice through, like for the teacher's certificate). They could start with a ceilidh dance the first week, then a reel or jig with no pdb and simple figures, then gradually increase the difficulty: strathspey, more complicated figures, pdb, etc. All that with 4 RSCDS examiners to do the judging and presented by Robbie Shepard, maybe? And of course, extra brownie point to any celebrity who manages to smile and look as though they're enjoying themselves while they're dancing! :-) Sophie -- Sophie Rickebusch CH - Wettswil a. A.
Feb. 1, 2006, 10:03 p.m. (Message 44028, in reply to message 43917)
Pia wrote: | Of course they walk up and down when they play, Richard - | they are trying to get away from the sound. The explanation I've heard is that it's harder to hit a moving target.
Feb. 2, 2006, 5:31 a.m. (Message 44035, in reply to message 43917)
Ron wrote: "After all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used to be called) and various other events I have attended over the years I have only rarely seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot. A bit damp sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to hinder the dancing." Fair enough. I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as well as (or better than) many of the really hard floors that one often has to dance on. When I made my original comment I was actually thinking of the farmers' fields I used to dance on. I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS style on a rough field or even a rough lawn really tiring. Not that I do it often. But from what I remember, it's probably skip change that I find the most challenging step to do on a rough surface. FWIW, Chris, New York.
Feb. 2, 2006, 10:26 a.m. (Message 44040, in reply to message 44035)
I think it depends on the quality of the grass - a flat firm lawn is fine, but tiring, a stretch of grass of dubious flatness, long grass, rabbit holes, snakes, midges, spiders, slugs, crunchy snails etc. needs wells. In message <xx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes >Ron wrote: > >"After all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used >to be called) and various other events I have attended over the years I >have only rarely seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot. A >bit damp sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to >hinder the dancing." >Fair enough. I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as well as (or better >than) many of the really hard floors that one often has to dance on. When I >made my original comment I was actually thinking of the farmers' >fields I used >to dance on. > >I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS style on a rough >field or even a rough lawn really tiring. Not that I do it often. But from >what I remember, it's probably skip change that I find the most challenging >step to do on a rough surface. > >FWIW, > >Chris, New York. > > > >_______________________________________________ >http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey -- Bryan McAlister
Feb. 2, 2006, 10:34 a.m. (Message 44041, in reply to message 44040)
D___, spellchecker was over officious - for "Wells" read "Wellies" In message <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>, Bryan McAlister <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx> writes >I think it depends on the quality of the grass - a flat firm lawn is >fine, but tiring, a stretch of grass of dubious flatness, long grass, >rabbit holes, snakes, midges, spiders, slugs, crunchy snails etc. needs >wells. > >In message <xx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes >>Ron wrote: >> >>"After all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used >>to be called) and various other events I have attended over the years I >>have only rarely seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot. A >>bit damp sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to >>hinder the dancing." >>Fair enough. I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as well as (or better >>than) many of the really hard floors that one often has to dance on. When I >>made my original comment I was actually thinking of the farmers' >>fields I used >>to dance on. >> >>I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS style on a rough >>field or even a rough lawn really tiring. Not that I do it often. But from >>what I remember, it's probably skip change that I find the most challenging >>step to do on a rough surface. >> >>FWIW, >> >>Chris, New York. >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey > -- Bryan McAlister
Feb. 2, 2006, 10:09 p.m. (Message 44057, in reply to message 44041)
On 2 Feb 2006 at 9:34, Bryan McAlister wrote: > D___, spellchecker was over officious - for "Wells" read "Wellies" > Only ever used wellies in a Dem for The Weaving Lilt. We once did an afternoon Dem for a Fete held in a horse paddock. Forty minutes of dancing including Schiehallion (which was more or less de rigeur in those days) finishing with a double Foursome + 1/2 RT. Forgathered afterwards at a friends house for tea and then went up to town for a Branch Summer Dance at Porchester Hall. Slept well that night! :)) Of course, I was taller in those days! :~) Ahh, yes!
Feb. 2, 2006, 1:23 p.m. (Message 44045, in reply to message 44040)
Also a problem keeping the formation and the steps going when performed at agricultural affairs right after the shire horses.
Feb. 2, 2006, 1:37 p.m. (Message 44046, in reply to message 44045)
I note that on 12/1/06 Richard asked us to use his new e-mail address xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx, but I see that the return address against this mail is still his old one, that will soon self-destruct. Andrew, Bristol, UK
Feb. 2, 2006, 4:18 p.m. (Message 44049, in reply to message 44040)
Dancing in the street on asphalt or concrete is a bear. Dancing on tile over concrete is also hard on the joints. When dancing on these surfaces one realizes that there is a reason that most professional dance studios and basketball courts have sprung hardwood floors. :-) Tom Mungall Baton Rouge, La, USA
Feb. 2, 2006, 8:10 a.m. (Message 44038, in reply to message 43917)
In einer eMail vom 02.02.2006 05:32:27 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx: I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS style on a rough field or even a rough lawn really tiring. Not that I do it often. But from what I remember, it's probably skip change that I find the most challenging step to do on a rough surface. I agree with you, Chris. Especially for people with knee problems (like me) it's terrible + dangerous, and I always try avoid to dance on such terrain. I find to dance on carpeted floor also very tiring Martina Langenfeld/Germany