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Counting, was C.D. Dance to the Pipes
John wrote: "This brings up something I've been curious about. I've heard several instructors count reels and strathspeys as a 1-2-3, 2-2-3, etc. "As a musician, well, piper, this method of counting music with a duple beat in triple time is confusing to me. It fits with jigs and waltzes, but requires a "silent" or "implied" count when done with reels, strathspeys, and hornpipes. Why isn't it just counted?" I'm with you. It drives me crazy to hear the pas de basque counted "1-2-3" instead of "1 and 2 and." I don't know the answer to your question. The few instructors I asked merely looked blank, not being musicians themselves. What I've concluded is that teachers are counting out *footfalls* but I admit that's not a satisfactory explanation either. I'm also looking forward to the replies on this List. Rhythmically yours, Pat (a musician as well as a dancer)
In a message dated 1/22/01 9:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx writes: << John wrote: "This brings up something I've been curious about. I've heard several instructors count reels and strathspeys as a 1-2-3, 2-2-3, etc. >> they would have to be inserting the 4th count as an "uh" or something equivalent. skip-change is hop-1-2-3 and strathspey is 1-2-3-lift. it makes teaching sense to omit the hop or lift if beginners are having trouble with the weight changes, as many do. for such people, simplification is the key, and leaving out the non-weight-changing hop or lift can help them get the crucial weight-changing step-step-step. the ultimate simplification for the hard cases is to omit the forward motion and do the weight changes in place, in time to the music. for the p-d-b, 1-2-3 is ok if the 3 is longer than the 1 and 2. some people like the "folkdance" terminology quick-quick-slow. and omitting the jete' is a good simplification. in fact, one of the most common sources of confusion for new dancers is having a teacher emphasize the wrong foot. the crucial foot is always the one that is bearing the weight, not the one that is flicking or flailing in the air, no matter how crucial the flick or flail is to the styling of the perfected figure. i always object when a teacher says that skip-change "starts with the right foot" and then proceeds to hop on the left and stick his right one out in front. in folkdancing, good teaching technique for a new figure always starts with the words "weight is on the left (or right, as the case may be) foot". Cecil Lubitz 85 Mann Blvd Clifton Park, NY 12065 Phone (home) 518-383-6580 (fax) 518-371-7125 xxxxxxx@xxx.xxx
In a message dated 01/22/2001 9:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx writes: > "This brings up something I've been curious about. I've heard several > instructors count reels and strathspeys as a 1-2-3, 2-2-3, etc. I am sure if you listened really carefully you would hear that the teachers in question were actually saying 1-2-3-and, 2-2-3-and, etc. (strathspey) or and-1-2-3, and-2-2-3 etc. (reel) :-) Chris. PS. You can also hear the "and" in counting out jig steps: and1-23-, and2-23-, etc.
I think it is fun dancing to pipes, though I will admit getting used to the beat and phrasing takes a bit of practice. I think our problem is cultural. Since about the middle 1970s [c. "Queen"], a lot of pop music is designed to be felt as opposed to being comprehended. The beat has become very important and emphasized. What people get from the meanings of the words is more subliminal than conscious. When I began SCD, the sound was that of Jimmy Shand, with its accordion harmonized melody and a strong beat. When Barbara McOwen and others got involved with music sans accordion, I feel there was a real return to understanding and appreciating the melodies, which the RSCDS has done so much to preserve when they are published with their dances. The pipes take us a step further, as a single voiced instrument, not only the melody is conveyed by the changer, but also the rhythm and the harmony. To those, without a strong interest in the classical composers, this appreciation takes some getting used to. But I feel it is worth it. Have you noticed how quickly experienced dancers not only pick up the beat but also their place in the phrase, when the old recordings used to skip, or someone's pdb landed to hard near the machine? One method I have used to get dancers used to this is to play sort of a "Simon Sez" game where the instruction begins at the beginning of the next phrase. I started with regular JS & IP recordings with the base at minimum, then moved on to the Berkeley Players, then pipes. I think dancers will gain a new feeling for the traditional Scottish melodies by exercises such as this. Goss xxxxxxx.x.xxxx@xxx.xxx
> From: John McCain > Subject: Counting, was C.D. Dance to the Pipes > > This brings up something I've been curious about. I've > heard several instructors count reels and strathspeys > as a 1-2-3, 2-2-3, etc. > > 8< snip >8 > > Is this a RSCDS convention that is taught? > I think the subject has been reasonably well covered, but as per it being an RSCDS convention... well, in a way it is, because we all learned to count that way when we learned to dance at our RSCDS classes, and just like an oral history, it does get passed on. However, it is not exclusive to the RSCDS. In my highland class, we count beats, and in my step dancing classes I have always been taught to count beats. But I recently started Irish step dancing and was told "reels are counted in 3 and jigs in 4" (except when we're doing 7's!) because there is a pause in the steps at that point. The beginner slip jig (9/8 time) is counted in 3's and 5's. The "1" is always ON the beat, and is usually although not always on the first beat of the bar. At the same time, if we get confused we are admonished to listen to the music and "make it fit" (or assured that when we hear the music we'll find it fits). As someone who likes to be given the rhythm of the step by hearing the music counts themselves, I've had to learn to listen to the emphasis in the voice to pick up the musical rhythm. Given the structure in Scottish and Irish music, that's not such a hard thing to do, although I'm not sure how I'll cope with more complicated steps. On the other hand, I once had a jazz teacher who counted movements instead of beats in the music, and it was always a surprise when the music went on to find where the tempo of the movements changed! It drove me crazy... It makes me wonder about musicians who learn to play by ear. Are they concerned about bar structure, or mostly about phrase structure? regards, Norah Link (Montreal, QC)