Feb. 2, 2006, 4:53 a.m. (Message 44034)
Dear Strathspey list, I've not received even one reply - on or off list - to my queries (below) about this dance. I think this may be a first for the strathspey list, which usually delivers an almost instantaneous reply on just about anything. Does it mean that no-one has done this dance for a long time, if ever? I assume it must have been somewhat popular at some time, for it can be found in the Wee Green Book. Or would that be a rash assumption? I'm going to try the dance anyway... and I'm quite expecting to find out why no-one has done it for a long time! Chris, New York. "I've been reading the instructions for Eccles' Rant in the 18th Century Book, and am planning to teach it soon. I wonder if there's anyone out there who knows the dance and could answer a few questions. 1. Would you face out on bar 8 (ready to cast), or would you complete the Petronella turn, and then begin to cast on bar 9? 2. The instructions specify that second couple move up on bars 11 to 12. But, if the aim is to be helpful to first couple, they should rather step up on bars 9 to 10 while first couple are casting to second place. Any comments on that? 3. As first couple, would you retain nearer hands on bar 16, ready for the circle with the second couple. (It would seem a bit unnatural to break hands only to rejoin a moment later.) 4. Can anyone comment on the origin of the name, which is also the name of the lead tune, besides the fact that Eccles is a town near Manchester, best known for its Eccles cakes."
Feb. 2, 2006, 9:04 a.m. (Message 44042, in reply to message 44034)
No, answers, but a comment or two: > 1. Would you face out on bar 8 (ready to cast), or would you complete > the > Petronella turn, and then begin to cast on bar 9? Personal taste? proneness to guidy turns? Need there be a rule (I'm thinking social dancing, not demos) ? > 2. The instructions specify that second couple move up on bars 11 to 12. > But, if the aim is to be helpful to first couple, they should rather > step > up on bars 9 to 10 Typical of written instructions where the timing is often quite arbitrary. Suc hmatters could well be left to the common sense of thedancrs -- most of us have been to school. > 3. As first couple, would you retain nearer hands on bar 16, ready for > the > circle with the second couple. See above. Too many rules. And you wonder why the younger generation is not too keen on SCD? Martin, in Grenoble, France.
Feb. 3, 2006, 1:41 a.m. (Message 44064, in reply to message 44034)
Dear Chris, No replies? I couldn't let no-one make comment (but now I see Martin Sheffield has). Remember that the 18th Century Book was produced (I understand) by the 'opposition' of the Society - Jack McConachie was not connected to the RSCDS, so his interpretations of the Young Manuscript tend to be different to what the RSCDS might have produced. My personal preference would be to complete the 'petronella' tunr as described, i.e facing your partner. There is plenty of time to cast as it is a strathspey. I would suggest that the stepping-up would be McConachie's preference and not mentioned in the original MS. The diagram in the book shows that the 1st couple retain nearer hands before the circle. Note that the tune is given as "Eccles' Rant", so maybe it was named for a person named Eccles, though it would be well before Spike Milligan was born! I don't think anyone will be worried how you interpret the dance. If I were teaching it, I would stick closely to the description in the book, then I have the fall-back to queries "it's in the book". Brian Charlton, Sydney, Australia.
Feb. 3, 2006, 3:05 p.m. (Message 44106, in reply to message 44064)
If the tune is called "Eccles' Rant," it must have been named for two or more people called Eccle. If there were a person called Eccles and I wanted to name a tune after her/him, I'd name it "Eccles's Rant." (With my name, I'm almost as aggressive about apostrophes as Lynne Truss is). :) Mike -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Norma and Mike Briggs BRIGGS LAW OFFICE 1519 Storytown Road Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA Voice: 608 835 0914 Fax: 608 835 0924 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Feb. 3, 2006, 9:49 p.m. (Message 44120, in reply to message 44106)
Not necessarily, from Gaelic "eccles" is a common locative which also shows up in the place, "Glen Eagles" (valley of the churches). This word is related to the Greek "eccleiastes", and the words eglesia, ysglecia, and esglesia in Spain. A part of the problem is the indifferent use of apostrophies in some place names. Not saying that it could not be a surname, but it is a common place name, or part of one, in the UK.
Feb. 4, 2006, 2:35 p.m. (Message 44129, in reply to message 44120)
So Julio Eglesias (whatever) is a name with a ecclestiaclial meaning!!? Pia
Feb. 4, 2006, 2:50 p.m. (Message 44131, in reply to message 44129)
I meant ecclesiastical - first time ever to try and spell this - and hopefully the last :>) Pia
Feb. 4, 2006, 6:19 p.m. (Message 44133, in reply to message 44131)
Spelling no problem, most of us have an auto edit function when it comes to not quite correct and skip right past it.
Feb. 4, 2006, 6:18 p.m. (Message 44132, in reply to message 44129)
Yes, it means literally "July Churches", except that Julio, in its various forms has more to do with Ceasar´s last name than the month named after him. The Julian clan has left its name all over Western Europe and North Africa as well.
Feb. 3, 2006, 10:40 a.m. (Message 44073, in reply to message 44034)
Well, Chris1, How did your dancers enjoy standing still for 5 of the 8 minutes that a strathspey usually lasts? Not my idea of fun. Martin
Feb. 3, 2006, 5:25 p.m. (Message 44115, in reply to message 44034)
Mike Briggs wrote: If the tune is called "Eccles' Rant," it must have been named for two or more people called Eccle. If there were a person called Eccles and I wanted to name a tune after her/him, I'd name it "Eccles's Rant." (With my name, I'm almost as aggressive about apostrophes as Lynne Truss is). :) Well, I don't have a name like yours, Mike, but I agree some of the ways apostrophes get used is really excruciating. In this instance, for what it's worth, the author/editor of the 18th Century Book (Jack McConachie) writes "Eccles' Rant" for both the dance and the tune. But if the dance had been named after the town, and if the author had followed modern conventions about apostrophes, how would you spell it then? By the way, I'd like to thank the people (on and off list) who have shared with me their thoughts about the dance. I haven't taught it yet, but I'll let you know when I have done. Martin - I realise first couple alone are active for the first 16 bars; I'll just have to see how I can make the experience fun for the other dancers even if they are only admiring from the sidelines. Chris, New York.
Feb. 3, 2006, 7:26 p.m. (Message 44118, in reply to message 44115)
Eccles is a fairly common prefix in Scots placenames and there is at least one Eccles with no suffix. It shares the same root as the 'eagles' in Gleneagles and denotes a church, the Gaelic for which has decided from the same origins as eglise/yglesia. So Eccles' Rant may be named for a village rather than a character in The Goon Show. Peter Hastings Murieston -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 02/02/2006
Feb. 4, 2006, 2:45 p.m. (Message 44130, in reply to message 44034)
Pia asks: | So Julio Eglesias (whatever) is a name with a ecclestiaclial meaning!!? Yeah; probably to about the same degree as Charlotte Church.
Feb. 4, 2006, 6:52 p.m. (Message 44134, in reply to message 44034)
| Spelling no problem, most of us have an auto edit function when it comes = | to not quite correct and skip right past it. It turns out this is quite literally true. There was a study of the readability of misspelled (mispeled?) words last year, and the main conclusion was that as long as the first and last letter of each word (or maybe two for longer words) are correct, most people can read garbled text quite easily. So "ecclestiaclial" and "ecclesiastical" look the same to most of us, unless we take a closer look.
Feb. 4, 2006, 9:20 p.m. (Message 44135, in reply to message 44134)
There are some other RSCDS name problems related to this. If you look at the Gaelic name for Menzies Rant, there is an interesting spelling error. The RSCDS Book translation comes out the "monastic men" when it should be "metelurgical men". If you look at the same family, almost same arms, in England, Manners (Dukes of Rutland, and in France, you will see that the name comes from miners.
Feb. 5, 2006, 12:09 a.m. (Message 44139, in reply to message 44134)
Surely you mean misspelt? Wes
Feb. 5, 2006, 9:54 a.m. (Message 44142, in reply to message 44141)
I once altered my spell checker to automaticly substitue the first suggestion for the suspect word. Then submitted my class roster. Cary Hart > Carry Heart, Alejandra Ramos > Allegedly Remiss, Eric Bartel > Epic Brothel, were some of the results I remember.