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Eccles Rant - No Answers?

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  • ...

    Chris1Ronald Feb. 2, 2006, 4:53 a.m. (Message 44034)

    Dear Strathspey list,
     
    I've not received even one reply - on or off list - to my queries  (below) 
    about this dance.  I think this may be a first for the strathspey  list, which 
    usually delivers an almost instantaneous reply on  just about anything.  Does 
    it mean that no-one has done this dance for  a long time, if ever?   I assume 
    it must have been somewhat popular at  some time, for it can be found in the 
    Wee Green Book.  Or would that be a  rash assumption? 
     
    I'm going to try the dance anyway... and I'm quite expecting  to find out why 
    no-one has done it for a long time! 
     
    Chris, New York. 
     
    
    "I've  been reading the instructions for Eccles' Rant in the 18th Century   
    Book, and am planning to teach it soon.  I wonder if there's anyone  out  
    there who 
    knows the dance and could answer a few  questions.
    
    1. Would you face out on bar 8 (ready to cast), or  would  you complete the 
    Petronella turn, and then begin to cast on  bar 9? 
    2. The instructions specify that second couple move up on bars 11  to  12.  
    But, if the aim is to be helpful to first couple, they  should rather  step 
    up on 
    bars 9 to 10 while first couple are casting  to second place.   Any comments 
    on that?
    3. As first couple,  would you retain nearer hands on bar 16, ready for  the 
    circle with  the second couple.  (It would seem a bit unnatural  to break 
    hands  
    only to rejoin a moment later.)
    4. Can anyone comment on the origin of  the name, which is also the name of  
    the lead tune, besides the fact  that Eccles is a town near Manchester, best  
    known for its Eccles  cakes."
  • ...

    Martin Feb. 2, 2006, 9:04 a.m. (Message 44042, in reply to message 44034)

    No, answers, but a comment or two:
    > 1. Would you face out on bar 8 (ready to cast), or  would  you complete 
    > the
    > Petronella turn, and then begin to cast on  bar 9?
    
    Personal taste? proneness to guidy turns?
    Need there be a rule (I'm thinking social dancing, not demos) ?
    
    > 2. The instructions specify that second couple move up on bars 11  to  12.
    > But, if the aim is to be helpful to first couple, they  should rather 
    > step
    > up on bars 9 to 10
    
    Typical of written instructions where the timing is often quite arbitrary.
    Suc hmatters could well be left to the common sense of thedancrs -- most of 
    us have been to school.
    
    > 3. As first couple,  would you retain nearer hands on bar 16, ready for 
    > the
    > circle with  the second couple.
    
    See above.
    
    Too many rules.
    And you wonder why the younger generation is not too keen on SCD?
    
    Martin,
    in Grenoble, France.
  • ...

    Martin Feb. 2, 2006, 11:34 a.m. (Message 44043, in reply to message 44042)

    
          
        
  • ...

    Brian Charlton Feb. 3, 2006, 1:41 a.m. (Message 44064, in reply to message 44034)

    Dear Chris,
    
    No replies? I couldn't let no-one make comment (but now I see Martin
    Sheffield has).
    
    Remember that the 18th Century Book was produced (I understand) by the
    'opposition' of the Society - Jack McConachie was not connected to the
    RSCDS, so his interpretations of the Young Manuscript tend to be different
    to what the RSCDS might have produced.
    
    My personal preference would be to complete the 'petronella' tunr as
    described, i.e facing your partner. There is plenty of time to cast as it is
    a strathspey.
    
    I would suggest that the stepping-up would be McConachie's preference and
    not mentioned in the original MS.
    
    The diagram in the book shows that the 1st couple retain nearer hands before
    the circle.
    
    Note that the tune is given as "Eccles' Rant", so maybe it was named for a
    person named Eccles, though it would be well before Spike Milligan was born!
    
    I don't think anyone will be worried how you interpret the dance. If I were
    teaching it, I would stick closely to the description in the book, then I
    have the fall-back to queries "it's in the book".
    
    Brian Charlton,
    Sydney, Australia.
  • ...

    Mike Briggs Feb. 3, 2006, 3:05 p.m. (Message 44106, in reply to message 44064)

    If the tune is called "Eccles' Rant," it must have been named for two or 
    more people called Eccle.  If there were a person called Eccles and I 
    wanted to name a tune after her/him, I'd name it "Eccles's Rant."  (With 
    my name, I'm almost as aggressive about apostrophes as Lynne Truss is).  :)
    
    Mike
    
    
    -- 
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
         Norma and Mike Briggs
           BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
          1519 Storytown Road
       Oregon WI  53575-2521 USA
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  • ...

    Richard Goss Feb. 3, 2006, 9:49 p.m. (Message 44120, in reply to message 44106)

    Not necessarily, from Gaelic "eccles" is a common locative which also
    shows up in the place, "Glen Eagles" (valley of the churches). This
    word is related to the Greek "eccleiastes", and the words eglesia,
    ysglecia, and esglesia in Spain. A part of the problem is the
    indifferent use of apostrophies in some place names. Not saying that
    it could not be a surname, but it is a common place name, or part of
    one, in the UK.
  • ...

    Pia Walker Feb. 4, 2006, 2:35 p.m. (Message 44129, in reply to message 44120)

    So Julio Eglesias (whatever) is a name with a ecclestiaclial meaning!!?
    
    Pia
  • ...

    Pia Walker Feb. 4, 2006, 2:50 p.m. (Message 44131, in reply to message 44129)

    I meant ecclesiastical - first time ever to try and spell this - and
    hopefully the last :>)
    
    Pia
  • ...

    Richard Goss Feb. 4, 2006, 6:19 p.m. (Message 44133, in reply to message 44131)

    Spelling no problem, most of us have an auto edit function when it
    comes to not quite correct and skip right past it.
  • ...

    Richard Goss Feb. 4, 2006, 6:18 p.m. (Message 44132, in reply to message 44129)

    Yes, it means literally "July Churches", except that Julio, in its
    various forms has more to do with Ceasar´s last name than the month
    named after him. The Julian clan has left its name all over Western
    Europe and North Africa as well.
  • ...

    Martin Feb. 3, 2006, 10:40 a.m. (Message 44073, in reply to message 44034)

    Well, Chris1,
    
    How did your dancers enjoy standing still for 5 of the 8 minutes that a 
    strathspey usually lasts?
    
    Not my idea of fun.
    
    Martin
  • ...

    Chris1Ronald Feb. 3, 2006, 5:25 p.m. (Message 44115, in reply to message 44034)

    Mike Briggs wrote:
    
    If the  tune is called "Eccles' Rant," it must have been named for two or 
    more  people called Eccle.  If there were a person called Eccles and I  
    wanted to name a tune after her/him, I'd name it "Eccles's Rant."   (With 
    my name, I'm almost as aggressive about apostrophes as Lynne Truss  is).  :)
    Well, I don't have a name like yours, Mike, but I agree some of the  ways 
    apostrophes get used is really excruciating.  In this  instance, for what it's 
    worth, the author/editor of the 18th Century  Book (Jack McConachie) writes 
    "Eccles' Rant" for both the dance and the  tune.  But if the dance had been named 
    after the town, and if the  author had followed modern conventions about 
    apostrophes, how  would you spell it then?  
     
    By the way, I'd like to thank the people (on and off list) who have shared  
    with me their thoughts about the dance.  I haven't taught it yet, but I'll  let 
    you know when I have done. Martin - I realise first couple alone are active  
    for the first 16 bars; I'll just have to see how I can make the experience fun 
     for the other dancers even if they are only admiring from the sidelines. 
     
    Chris, New York.
  • ...

    Peter Hastings Feb. 3, 2006, 7:26 p.m. (Message 44118, in reply to message 44115)

    Eccles is a fairly common prefix in Scots placenames and there is at least
    one Eccles with no suffix. It shares the same root as the 'eagles' in
    Gleneagles and denotes a church, the Gaelic for which has decided from the
    same origins as eglise/yglesia. So Eccles' Rant may be named for a village
    rather than a character in The Goon Show.
    
    Peter Hastings
    Murieston
    
    
    -- 
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  • ...

    John Chambers Feb. 4, 2006, 2:45 p.m. (Message 44130, in reply to message 44034)

    Pia asks:
    | So Julio Eglesias (whatever) is a name with a ecclestiaclial meaning!!?
    
    Yeah; probably to about the same degree as Charlotte Church.
  • ...

    John Chambers Feb. 4, 2006, 6:52 p.m. (Message 44134, in reply to message 44034)

    | Spelling no problem, most of us have an auto edit function when it comes =
    | to not quite correct and skip right past it.
    
    It turns out this is quite literally  true.   There  was  a
    study  of  the  readability of misspelled (mispeled?) words
    last year, and the main conclusion was that as long as  the
    first and last letter of each word (or maybe two for longer
    words) are correct, most people can read garbled text quite
    easily.
    
    So "ecclestiaclial" and "ecclesiastical" look the  same  to
    most of us, unless we take a closer look.
  • ...

    Richard Goss Feb. 4, 2006, 9:20 p.m. (Message 44135, in reply to message 44134)

    There are some other RSCDS name problems related to this. If you look
    at the Gaelic name for Menzies Rant, there is an interesting spelling
    error. The RSCDS Book translation comes out the "monastic men" when it
    should be "metelurgical men". If you look at the same family, almost
    same arms, in England, Manners (Dukes of Rutland, and in France, you
    will see that the name comes from miners.
  • ...

    Wesley Harry Feb. 5, 2006, 12:09 a.m. (Message 44139, in reply to message 44134)

    Surely you mean misspelt?
    Wes
  • ...

    Martin Feb. 5, 2006, 8:52 a.m. (Message 44141, in reply to message 44134)

    
          
        
  • ...

    Richard Goss Feb. 5, 2006, 9:54 a.m. (Message 44142, in reply to message 44141)

    I once altered my spell checker to automaticly substitue the first
    suggestion for the suspect word. Then submitted my class roster.
       
      Cary Hart > Carry Heart,
      Alejandra Ramos > Allegedly Remiss,
      Eric Bartel > Epic Brothel,
       
      were some of the results I remember.

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