Thread
Index
Arthur's Seat - bars 31-32
Chris Ronald
Feb. 26, 2018, 5:02 p.m. (Message 69473)
Hi Eric, Derek, and Keith, Goodness me, I thought this issue had been settled. I guess I should add a comment. Along with other teachers with whom I have discussed this question, I believe the correct reading of the last two bars of Arthur's Seat is that a petronella turn is intended. There are several reasons. Firstly, as far as we can tell, the author of the 18th Century Book (Jack McConachie - JM) always states when dancers should give hands. We see no reason why he would not have done so, if that is what he had in mind, in this instance. Secondly, JM uses "turn by the right" elsewhere to mean a petronella turn or something similar. Take a look at dance #34 in the 18th Century Book, Mairi Allan, bars 25-28, for example. It is clear that no hands are given in this case. In further support of our interpretation, consider what happens at the end of the second time through, when 1st couple have to reach the bottom of the set on the last two bars as 4th couple step up. For 1st man, that is a challenging track with a plain petronella turn, but it is practically impossible for 1st couple if they have to turn partner with the right hand as well. Good luck! Chris.
Oh dear, I don't know what edition of Jack McConachie's book Chris is
quoting from. I have a copy of the original, published in 1960 and
signed by Jack (he was my teacher, when I was a teenager).It clearly
states "31-32 First couple turn each other with right hands to own
sides, in 2nd place."He has copious notes on each dance, including
details for bars 25-30 of Arthur's Seat, which are commonly called
"Hello goodbye setting" today. I know HGB setting typically ends with
a petronella turn, so this may have crept in over the last 50+ years,
but it is definitely NOT in the original 1960 publication.I do not
have access to the manuscript of D.A.Young's 1740 collection. However
it is in the Bodleian Library in Oxford, a mere 40 miles from Jack's
old home. I have every confidence that he researched and faithfully
interpreted that document.Bottom line is, I believe Eric's cribs are
correct.Happy dancing,Arthur McLean
From: Chris Ronald <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Arthur's Seat - bars 31-32
PS.
Consider also the dance Cauld Kail published by the RSCDS in Book 9. This
dance also uses the expression "turn by the right" for the last two bars of
'hello-goodbye', and it is clear from the wording and the diagram that a
petronella turn is intended.
Chris.
Arthur McLean wrote: "Oh dear, I don't know what edition of Jack McConachie's book Chris is quoting from. I have a copy of the original, published in 1960 and signed by Jack (he was my teacher, when I was a teenager).It clearly states "31-32 First couple turn each other with right hands to own sides, in 2nd place."He has copious notes on each dance, including details for bars 25-30 of Arthur's Seat, which are commonly called "Hello goodbye setting" today. I know HGB setting typically ends with a petronella turn, so this may have crept in over the last 50+ years, but it is definitely NOT in the original 1960 publication." My copy of the 18th Century Book has the following notation on page 2: First Edition 1960 Second Edition (Reset, revised and enlarged) 1963 Reprinted 1967 Reprinted 1990 It would seem that Jack McConachie changed his mind about his 1960 interpretation of the ending of the dance, probably already in 1963. To respond to Eric's original posting, the RSCDS is not in the business of interpreting dances that they have not published, and speaking personally I would think it unlikely that it would start down this path, which could lead to lots of controversy, as the current discussion illustrates. By the way, the recording for this dance by Dave Wiesler and Hanneke Cassel is one of my absolute favourites. Chris.
Jack McConachie's book is clearly based on careful research. However, historical changes in the musical length of dance figures (as well as uncertainty about what 18th C dance terms actually meant) often led him to adapt Young's MS quite freely. He makes this clear in his Foreword: "In some instances it has been necessary for me to adapt the phrasing of the Dances in this book to take into account the changes in musical outlook since their publication in 1740 ... " He actually makes changes that seem gratuitous, such as describing 15 of the dances as strathspeys, even though the strathspey as separate musical category postdates David Young. McConachie's treatment of "Arthur's Seat" is a good example of this. Here is Young's dance: 16. Arthur’s Seat. RIGHT hands across with the first pair, and cast off; left hands across with the 2d pair, and sett a little. Lead up one pair, & cast off; lead down one pair and cast up. SETT cross partners. Lead out at both sides. The music is in 4/4 tempo and has four 4-bar phrases, each repeated. Young has a clear way of indicating phrasing: red upper-case at the start of bars 1-8 and 17-24, and red lower-case at the start of bars 9-16 and 25-32. (These are the first words of the sentences above.) Except for the delightfully vague "sett a little" the instructions are terse and use standard terms - a bit like our cribs. However, Young's first 8 bars need more than 8 in modern phrasing. So McC expanded them to 16 bars and cut out the last 8 bars completely. He also decided to reconstruct "sett cross partners" as the "set to corners and partner" which was a standard RSCDS formation in 1957. In his other MS, when Young means something like our modern Hello and Goodbye, he writes, "SETT to the cross partner and your own Partner alternatively." The question of what McConachie wanted to happen on bars 31-32 of his dance was exhaustively covered in Strathspey exchanges many years ago. I incline to the "petronella turn" interpretation because of the internal evidence cited by Chris. But I agree with Arthur that we shouldn't impose our own understanding of the H & G movement just because it's standard now. Rosemary Coupe Vancouver