Feb. 26, 2018, 4:22 p.m. (Message 69471)
Hi All, A discussion has again arisen on bars 31-32 of "Arthur's Seat": does 1c Petronella to the sidelines or do a 3/4 turn RH? We diagram makers (like Keith Rose) and crib writers (like Minicrib and myself) want to "get it right", because often our interpretation is what dancers see on the dance programmes. As David Haynes says, different sources and different interpretations exist. I do not think it is right for _us_, the diagram and crib makers, to decide how to solve ambiguities in original descriptions and traditional interpretations. I expect the number of such ambiguities to be small; they will mainly appear for "traditional" dances, as in the past descriptions were often formulated less precisely. I propose that the RSCDS could ask one of its committees to act as "advice centre" on how to resolve these unclear texts. The dance will usually go well whatever alternative is chosen, as long as all dancers do the same. The such "authoritative advice" would be a great help. Any comments? Happy dancing, Eric
Feb. 26, 2018, 4:57 p.m. (Message 69472, in reply to message 69471)
I agree with your proposal. Jerry -- Jerry Reinstein Vice-Chair & Teaching Coordinator Chiswick Scottish Country Dance Club 15 Sydney House, Woodstock Road London W4 1DP, United Kingdom Tel +44 (0)20 8994 2890 Mob 077 1218 2587 Chiswick Scottish Country Dance Club <http://www.chiswickscottish.org.uk/> <http://www.chiswickscottish.org.uk/> <http://www.facebook.com/ChiswickScottishCountryDanceClub?ref=hl> <https://twitter.com/ChiswckScottish> <http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCD02s9LP7GPYxpelcZptfzQ> On 26/02/2018, 14:22, "x.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx" <x.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx> wrote: Hi All, A discussion has again arisen on bars 31-32 of "Arthur's Seat": does 1c Petronella to the sidelines or do a 3/4 turn RH? We diagram makers (like Keith Rose) and crib writers (like Minicrib and myself) want to "get it right", because often our interpretation is what dancers see on the dance programmes. As David Haynes says, different sources and different interpretations exist. I do not think it is right for _us_, the diagram and crib makers, to decide how to solve ambiguities in original descriptions and traditional interpretations. I expect the number of such ambiguities to be small; they will mainly appear for "traditional" dances, as in the past descriptions were often formulated less precisely. I propose that the RSCDS could ask one of its committees to act as "advice centre" on how to resolve these unclear texts. The dance will usually go well whatever alternative is chosen, as long as all dancers do the same. The such "authoritative advice" would be a great help. Any comments? Happy dancing, Eric
Feb. 26, 2018, 8:30 p.m. (Message 69478, in reply to message 69471)
Eric Ferguson wrote: > I propose that the RSCDS could ask one of its committees to act as "advice > centre" on how to resolve these unclear texts. Speaking entirely for myself and certainly not the RSCDS, I'd say that this is unlikely to happen, for at least two reasons: 1. As a rule, the Society doesn't deal with dances that haven't been published by the Society. This is not to say that the Society doesn't acknowledge that such dances exist and can be fun and/or instructive – it's just that it would open endless political cans of worms that the Society, on the whole, would prefer to remain closed. 2. There is a general tendency even within the Society to move towards less, rather than more, prescriptivism. As you know, I happen to be in charge of the committee that publishes RSCDS dance books (for another 9 months, anyway), and we have had extensive discussions over how to deal with the seemingly unavoidable ambiguities and omissions in our dance descriptions. We acknowledge that too much regulation tends to stifle the enjoyment of our dances, and that while there should be enough detail and clarity in RSCDS dance descriptions to enable people to figure out how to do a dance from the written word alone, in many cases if there is an ambiguity there are several ways to resolve that ambiguity that can coexist without causing immediate catastrophe, and we do not need to pounce on one particular method and declare that the only officially sanctioned one. Much of the bad reputation that the Society has in some circles (especially in Scotland) is less to do with its insistence that people strive for excellence in their dancing (which is not a Bad Thing) and more with a perceived notion that the Society is all about Right vs. Wrong. While people generally enjoy being right, it can really put a damper on the fun you're having if you're constantly being told that you're wrong, and so we would very much like for there to be less of that, please. Adding further detail to dance descriptions will clearly be helpful to some people, but to other people it will just afford more opportunities to be told that they're wrong, wrong, wrong, and this is not really something we would like to encourage. So whether you do a turn right hand or a petronella turn at the end of Arthur's Seat is a definite issue mostly if you're training a high-powered display team which is going to perform in front of a bunch of famous people who all learned Arthur's Seat from Jack McConachie himself. If, as it will be for most of us, you are not in that particular situation, and there is no RSCDS Technical Advisory Panel to take recourse to, then you listen to your teacher or MC and do whatever they tell you to do (it might be something in X's class today and something else at Y's social next week, but that is hardly the end of the world). If you yourself happen to be the teacher or MC, you pick one and/or tell people that there are two choices and let them pick one or try both (they have two tries after all). Huge deal. Having said that, if people would like to empanel a committee to pronounce on that sort of thing for non-RSCDS dances (assuming that the RSCDS TAP is there to take care of RSCDS dances), no power in the 'Verse can stop you from rolling your own (if you don't think you're qualified, try to find some qualified people and incentivise them suitably to take part). If your committee's rulings are reasonable then people – at least those people who are interested in committee rulings on details of dances – will probably accept them. And in most cases it's not as if anyone really knew better, anyway. Anselm (again, NOT speaking for the Society) -- Anselm Lingnau, Mainz, Germany ......................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window. -- Steve Wozniak
Feb. 27, 2018, 2:37 a.m. (Message 69480, in reply to message 69478)
Dear Anselm, Hi All, I am not surprised at Anselm's reply, but I beg to differ. 1. The central aim of the RSCDS is to support SCD. Nowhere does it say "Supporting SCD as long as people are dancing RSCDS dances". Publishing dances is a [very useful] "service to dancers". But why ever should the RSCDS - except by what is in my opinion a short-sighted tradition - limit its actions to its own dances only, in fact saying "RSCDS dances are more equal than others". Just look at the "dance lists" on SCDDB and see how important non-RSCDS dances are in the SCD community. The RSCDS should decide to support ALL SC dances as and when that is useful. 2. When dances have different "variants" (often older dances), these are often equally "danceable", but it is decidedly disturbing when different "variants" coexist; the dancers in a set may not discover their different traditions till in the dance itself. it is wise for SCD groups to ask for advice on which variant to prefer, for if we all choose one variant, it improves joy for everyone, at no real loss. The only place with the expertise, data sources and prestige to give such advice is the RSCDS. If the Society does not help us for all such dances (not RSCDS dances only, I feel let down. 3. We agree that the RSCDS should not "prescribe" or "act as authority". I ask the Society to "give advice". To me it is evident that such advice will be made in cooperation with any dancers who can contribute usefully (whether members or not). The result is not "Only this is right" but "If we all do it this way, it will be the most joyful for everyone". 4. I see no reason to fear "cans of worms". If all discussants can join in, they will usually reach a joint preference. But even if two versions become "common" (as for instance the Lsh and Rsh passes in Mairi's Wedding") it's better than nothing. 5. We diagram and crib makers do our best. Our cribs and diagrams on SCDDB should agree mutually. That is what dancers get from the SCDDB downloads. But when (as often happens) organisers also make their own crib sheet, the dancers on the floor may be reading conflicting instructions. That is only counterproductive.
Feb. 27, 2018, 4:05 a.m. (Message 69481, in reply to message 69480)
Eric wrote: > The RSCDS should decide to support ALL SC dances as and when that is useful. It's probably just as well to remember that the whole issue concerns only a very limited part of the repertoire, namely dances that are so old that there is no “living memory” associated with them. Most of these dances are actually RSCDS dances because not many people other than the RSCDS have even bothered with dances from old manuscripts (Jack McConachie's “18th-century dances” book is a very rare exception). Today, almost 95% of the published repertoire of Scottish country dances consists of “modern” dances, meaning dances that have been written after the Society was founded in 1923. For many of these dances, the devisers are still around and available to answer questions. For many others, there are people around who learned the dance from the deviser and are probably better placed to give stipulations as to the deviser's intent than the Society. The Society, after all, has published only around 1000 dances altogether, which is a tiny part of what is out there. However, simply keeping these dances in good repair, answering questions, etc. is in fact keeping the Society quite busy. Now you're asking it to serve as a clearinghouse for another 18000 dances, most of which the good people of MSC, E&T or the Technical Advisory Panel are likely to have never heard of, and about which any “advice” the Society can give is likely really not any better or worse than that which any experienced dance teacher should be able to provide. At RSCDS HQ we do not have access to special arcane knowledge or insight that is hidden from ordinary dancers and that would enable us to make a better judgement than anyone else. We also do not operate ouija boards. On the whole it is probably a much more productive use of our time to encourage dancers to develop “common sense” that will help them deal with many dances than to try to sort out every little ambiguity in every single dance out there one after the other. It should also be mentioned that even if we look only at old dances where devisers (or people close to the devisers) cannot be consulted, many ambiguities do not create actual problems. For example, the official RSCDS version of Seann Triubhas Willichan, on bars 17-24, has 1st couple lead down giving right hands, turn right hands, lead up giving right hands, and cast off. It is a very common variation to dance down with nearer hands, turn both hands, and dance up with nearer hands again. Many people (including myself) find this nicer than what the RSCDS book says, but even if the RSCDS book didn't specify which hands to use it would be trivial to establish a consensus with one's partner on the fly. Many of the dreaded “ambiguities” in older dances are like that. But we don't need a committee to tell us what we like, and for all we know that was how the dance was originally intended, anyway, and the Society just managed to mangle it dreadfully during the reconstruction. The Society certainly does not have an exclusive right to decide what people enjoy. > 2. When dances have different "variants" (often older dances), these are > often equally "danceable", but it is decidedly disturbing when different > "variants" coexist; the dancers in a set may not discover their different > traditions till in the dance itself. So what? I wonder what the worst that can happen will be. Do people actually collide at speed on a regular basis because they can't agree on which shoulder to pass between half diagonal reels of four? My guess is that the vast majority of such “mismatches” will be sorted out “dynamically” and at worst lead to a good laugh. Could we please – by way of illustration only – have a few real-life examples of descriptions of dances that are actually being danced socially, that are so ambiguous that not promulgating and adhering to a common definite third-party resolution leads to actual *problems* (as opposed to brief flashes of hilarity) on the social dance floor? I've been dancing for more than 25 years now and I find it difficult to remember any such situation. (One might think of questions like who makes the arches in Postie's Jig or which shoulder to pass in Mairi's Wedding, but these are in fact explained quite unambiguously in the authors' dance descriptions if people could be bothered to read, so these don't count. Actual examples please.) If you ask the Society to pronounce on what is the “correct” way to do bars X to Y of dance Z, you automatically imply – whether you want it or not – that not doing it this way is “wrong” or at least inferior, and this will be taken out on people who, whether by ignorance or personal preference, adopt the “wrong” method – even if that method appears to work equally well. I have on many social occasions been booed and hissed by busybodies of the informal “dance police” for doing something “wrong” – whether these people were in fact correct or not is immaterial, but this attitude poisons the social atmosphere and turns people off SCD, which is the very last thing that we want. Therefore, as long as we can't eradicate the informal “dance police” (which in my book should have a MUCH higher priority than any fixes to individual dances), we should not create more opportunities for people to be “wrong” by fixing problems that do not in fact desperately need to be fixed. This is counterproductive not just because of the right/wrong issue but also because there are enough acctual problems that deserve being tackled, and there is only so much time available. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Mainz, Germany ......................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Liquid tungsten is so hot, if you dropped it into a lava flow, the lava would freeze the tungsten. -- Randall Munroe, _Extreme Boating_ (what if? #50)
Feb. 27, 2018, 5:42 a.m. (Message 69482, in reply to message 69481)
Excellent. Anselm, you are the king of common sense! Mike Briggs
Feb. 27, 2018, 10:53 a.m. (Message 69483, in reply to message 69481)
Anselm asked for an example of ambiguity. Admittedly, in this case there is no ambiguity in the instructions, but many, many years ago now the habit had crept in for the final all-round poussette in 'Bonnie Anne' for the 1s & 2s and 3s & 4s to be done as ordinary progressive poussettes. There were three couples in the set who knew nothing other than the 'bad' habit. The remaining couple were very serious dancers, who incidentally almost invariably danced together, who must have known the correct version. All was well until the final eight bars. Anselm's "guess is that the vast majority of such “mismatches” will be sorted out dynamically” and at worst lead to a good laugh." was way off the mark in this case, certainly for the 'serious' couple. The light-hearted attitude to chaos of the other three was disapproved of so vigorously that the atmosphere became really poisonous. It sticks in my memory solely because it cast such a shadow over the rest of the evening. Incidentally, I was checking my spelling of 'poussette' in my 2006 edition of the Society's "Index to Formations and Movements ...", and 'Bonnie Anne' does not get a mention. A quick random selection of titles I have danced socially seems to indicate that MacNab dances might be beyond the pale as far as this 'Index' is concerned? Andrew, Bristol, UK
Feb. 27, 2018, 11:08 a.m. (Message 69484, in reply to message 69483)
Andrew Smith wrote: > The light-hearted > attitude to chaos of the other three was disapproved of so vigorously that > the atmosphere became really poisonous. It sticks in my memory solely > because it cast such a shadow over the rest of the evening. Yes, but as you note this has nothing to do with ambiguity in the instructions. It is really more of an “informal dance police” issue. It is probably upon us as teachers to (a) note that competing versions exist in certain dances – and I can agree that the end of Bonnie Anne is one of the places where there is at least a danger of people colliding –, and (b) stomp down hard on people who take it upon themselves to give other people a bad time on social occasions. We don't seem to do Bonnie Anne as much as we used to, so the idea that there are competing versions and that a set might agree in advance on which version to do is not established as firmly in people's minds. But I have certainly been in situations where a set went into a brief huddle to figure out whether, e.g., to do a three-couple poussette at the end of every other turn of Muirland Willie to make life easier for 4th couple becoming 3rd couple. I contend that this is a much more positive approach to the issue of “ambiguity” than to ask the TAP (or a similar body for non-RSCDS dances) to declare which way is “correct” (what do you expect them to say, anyway?) or tsk-tsk-ing at dancers or sets who prefer the convenient (and considerate) method over the official one in the RSCDS book. > Incidentally, I was checking my spelling of 'poussette' in my 2006 edition > of the Society's "Index to Formations and Movements ...", and 'Bonnie Anne' > does not get a mention. A quick random selection of titles I have danced > socially seems to indicate that MacNab dances might be beyond the pale as > far as this 'Index' is concerned? I can't speak for whoever did the 2006 edition of the Index to Formations and Movements, but the 2018+ edition, once it is finally ready, will probably not cover the MacNab dances, either, simply because most of them are really speciality items that don't show up that often, and they include weird stuff that appears in no other dance. I'm open to debate from the other side (under a new subject heading please, or in direct e-mail to xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxxxx.xxx). Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Mainz, Germany ......................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Anyone who creates his or her own cryptographic primitives is either a genius or a fool. Given the genius/fool ratio for our species, the odds aren't very good. -- Bruce Schneie