Oct. 3, 2001, 7:44 p.m. (Message 27704)
Norah Link wrote: >>If I had a penny for each person I had to individually >>persuade at the >>club I dance in that a crib was not an instrument of torture, >>but was in >>fact "succinct and easy to understand", I'd have more than 20 >>pence... >>Some of them still don't think that. Most of them are >>educated people. >> Most of them are young (under 30). >> > > > P.S. Have you considered that it may also be necessary to redesign your > cribs so they are easier to understand quickly? I hadn't given it much thought, mostly because cribs are usually provided to all attendees by the organiser, not by our club for our members. Home dances are not a problem since we can ensure we've done all the dances in class. I could try preparing my own cribs for dances I attend, and distributing them in our club... but writing cribs isn't something I have much experience of. Any tips on producing good clear cribs would be appreciated. (Peter?) I tend to assume that some care has gone into the production of cribs provide for a ball. I'd feel a bit rude pulling out my own crib when one is provided, as rude as taking a my own plate and cutlery to a restaurant. What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling... Adam Cambridge, UK
Oct. 3, 2001, 7 p.m. (Message 27705, in reply to message 27704)
Hi Adam, I would suggest that you try to compile a standard vocabulary which you then use in cribs and teaching - if you don't want to write one yourself, then probably the most accessible is the RSCDS list of standard terminology which can be found in the RSCDS manual. I think someone on the list (Anselm?) also produced a list of standard terminology for figures which had not, as yet, made it into the manual. HTH, Seonaid PS I've seen plenty of American's step-hopping, although I will concede that it might not have been in a contra dance!
Oct. 3, 2001, 11:08 p.m. (Message 27708, in reply to message 27704)
Greetings Adam wrote: > What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling... A few years ago, there was an article in TACTalk about the different perceptions of dance instructions. I can't remember the specific types, but there were basically three. One group who could understand the Pilling diagrams easily, one group who preferred the written word (i.e. cribs) and the third group who assimilated information best through speech (i.e. recaps). All types are on the dance floor and we all think our individual type is best! :-) Helen -- _ _ |_|_ |_| Malcolm & Helen Brown - York (UK) - x.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xx (Tir-Nan-Og) _ |_|_ |_| _|_| Connecting via NETCOM Internet Ltd |_|
Oct. 3, 2001, 10:41 p.m. (Message 27710, in reply to message 27708)
Ah! we have just found dance perfection: A person who can look, see, talk and dance all at the same time :>) :>) :>) Pia
Oct. 3, 2001, 10:30 p.m. (Message 27712, in reply to message 27704)
Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>: > What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling... > It's ironic that you cite Pilling as (presumably) an example of clear and "unmystical" cribs. Many feel they are cryptic indeed, and as you probably know, they are notorious for their inaccuracies and limitations. Don't get me wrong -- I love 'em and was able to read them with no problems within weeks of learning to dance, but from what I've observed and been told, my experience was not the norm . . . Most dances I go to do not rely soley on cribs, anyway. In these parts, 99.9% of the time, dances are always briefed at a social event. If the crib wasn't crystal clear, the briefing often helps to clarify. --Lara Friedman-Shedlov Minneapolis, MN USA ******************************* Lara Friedman-Shedlov xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx *******************************
Oct. 4, 2001, 1:38 p.m. (Message 27735, in reply to message 27712)
Hi Lara Friedman-Shedlov wrote: > Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>: >>What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling... > > It's ironic that you cite Pilling as (presumably) an example of clear > and "unmystical" cribs. No, I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere words... Like you, I took to Pilling instantly. It is the way my head works. But I am surrounded by dancers who find translating dances from the written word to movement very difficult. > Most dances I go to do not rely soley on cribs, anyway. In these > parts, 99.9% of the time, dances are always briefed at a social event. > If the crib wasn't crystal clear, the briefing often helps to clarify. I have been to only four social events (balls) since I started dancing a few years ago which had briefs for all dances. I organised three of the four, and while I have received no hate mail, I certainly am looked down on by the local RSCDS Branch for dumbing down SCD. The fourth was a wonderful surprise at last year's SUSCDF at St Andrews, which also had a written crib and a page of dances not in the 7th edition supplied in Pilling Notation, so all three media were covered. Is it the norm outside the UK (or even in the UK) for dances to be briefed? Adam
Oct. 4, 2001, 3:28 p.m. (Message 27740, in reply to message 27735)
Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>: > Is it the norm outside the UK (or even in the UK) for dances to be > briefed? Yes, I'd say it is the norm for dances to be briefed in the United States and Canada, from my experience anyway (I've been SCD dancing in California, Washington state, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ontario). However, I found that in Scotland, where I learned to SCD in the 1980s and early 1990s, it was not the usual practice to brief dances at social events (at least not at that time). When I first started dancing here in the U.S. I thought that giving briefings was kind of wimpy, but now I believe they are a very good idea. For one thing, they make a dance far more welcoming to people who are newer to SCD or who have a different learning style (who take things in better by hearing them rather than reading). It also makes the dance more welcoming to people from out of town, who may not be as familiar with the dances on the program as the local folks. --Lara Friedman-Shedlov Minneapolis, MN USA ******************************* Lara Friedman-Shedlov xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx *******************************
Oct. 5, 2001, 8:37 a.m. (Message 27755, in reply to message 27740)
G'Day, Briefing is usually done in Australia, too, particularly at Socials. When in Scotland for the Summer School a few years ago, we went to the dance at Carnoustie and were amazed when, not only were the dances called, but even the name of the dance was not given - the band played 8 bars, the MC said 'All sets complete?' and away we went!! They even had the hide to thank the MC!!! Brian Charlton, Sydney, Australia
Oct. 4, 2001, 5:29 p.m. (Message 27744, in reply to message 27704)
Adam Hughes wrote: . . . I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere words... Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the other. And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings without my glasses, but cannot read the printed words. Attended a beginners' class once where the teacher displayed a large chart of the pillings for the dances she was teaching. As she taught a figure, or walked through a dance, she would point to the pillings representation. Classic teaching technique: visual as well as auditory and kinetic presentation. Great class. Miriam Mueller, San Francisco
Oct. 5, 2001, 10:53 a.m. (Message 27759, in reply to message 27744)
In article <xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx.-xxxxxx.x.xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>, Miriam L. Mueller <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx> writes >Adam Hughes wrote: >. . . I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people > >could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere >words... > >Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols >differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the >other. And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings >without my glasses, but cannot read the printed words. > >Attended a beginners' class once where the teacher displayed a large >chart of the pillings for the dances she was teaching. As she taught a >figure, or walked through a dance, she would point to the pillings >representation. Classic teaching technique: visual as well as auditory >and kinetic presentation. Great class. > >Miriam Mueller, San Francisco Excellent. I find Pillings symbols generally to be clear and understandable and to date have not come across the many errors that are always raised by those who don't like Pillings. I do agree that there are instances where P. doesn't completely explain the transition from one figure to another but I am annotate my copy as I resolve such points. When I first went to classes I was rebuked by the teacher for reviewing the Pillings notes for each dance after we had danced it. I don't have any respect for a teacher with that attitude. As a musician I am accustomed to symbols and would never start to play the Dashing White Sergeant by referring to a text which went - longish D, repeat, short D, short E short Fsharp etc. Pillings actually contains the solution to a lot of dancers problems with the instructions for dances but teachers MUST try to teach them how to use the symbols. Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk Email xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx Mobile phone 07801 793849 FAX number - 0870 052 7625
Oct. 4, 2001, 6:38 p.m. (Message 27747, in reply to message 27704)
>From: "Miriam L. Mueller" <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx> >Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols >differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the >other. I think it's great to enable both sets of abilities. I have the opposite need from Mimi: I easily understand English-based language words, but Pillings eascapes me. They might as well print Pillings in Egyptian hieroglyphs, for all the good it does me. What I find very troubling is when I show up at a Ball or Dance Party where a Branch has only printed Pillings. It's as if the right handers are discriminating against the left handers, perhaps unintentionally, but possibly thoughtlessly... Ken McFarland And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings
Oct. 4, 2001, 10:38 p.m. (Message 27749, in reply to message 27704)
Hi, As a newbie to SCD, it has taken vast amounts of determination and fortitude to overcome the RSCDS's elitist (sorry guys) attitude w.r.t. cribs and/or briefings. I find this somewhat confusing: the RSCDS rolls aren't in great shape and yet making life easier for us newcomers doesn't seem a high priority! It is definitely the case that some of our group (Beginners) fight shy of attending balls/dances due directly to this lack (although our wonderful teacher does help). Adam Hughes wrote: > I certainly am looked down on by the local > RSCDS Branch for dumbing down SCD Well Adam, I am a member of that local group, and I can tell you that this is *not* the attitude of the "students". So keep up the good work and the devil take the hindmost. I might add that every single dance at St Andrew's Summer School this year was briefed just beforehand irrespective of difficulty level, and cribs for all the dances were handed out at the beginning of the week. Perhaps change is on the way ... Donna Cambridge, UK
Oct. 5, 2001, 3:08 p.m. (Message 27761, in reply to message 27704)
As has been said by many addressing this thread , different people learn and remember in different ways. I like Bryan's analogy to musical notation.To expand on that a bit, I have met skilled and talented musicians who were excellant with tablature and almost unable to deal with anything in standard notation and others who could play anything that they had heard but nearly nothing from any written source. I too find that I am better able to understand a dance from graphical representation but I have met and have had students in class who could read a dance in text and dance it perfectly and others who absolutely needed a "walk through" neither group was more nor less intelligent , talented or dedicated than the other!!! One must remember that theRSCDS "bigbooks" contain diagrams when the publishers felt that there was a benefit from them. Even the best and most careful writer/devisor/editor may at times be unsuccessful at communicating with others in some medium though he/she may understand the directions perfectly.Yet I have met a small subset of RSCDS people who seem to equate the use of "Pillings" or other graphical representations as something between axe-murder and pedophilia. I think that I can say safely that I have never taught a class directly from Pillings or cribs without reconciling it the official dance publication when I had ANY alternative .Usually one reinforces the other. I do think that we must use all available resources to understand and execute the dances as well as possible and not allow our personal prejudices or our own preferences to hinder ourselves or other dancers!!! To be sure a class or ballroom of people with their noses buried in notes can be distracting so of course common courtesy and attentiveness are appropriate but so is intellectual flexibility.In my youth I ordered a pair of winter boots -ONE SIZE FITS ALL-by mail: indeed size 17 boots will accomodate most feet but are they less than desireable in many situations ;-]! Kirk Bachler Twin Cities Branch,Minnesota,USA,RSCDS