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Cribs (was Re: Square dancing.)

Adam Hughes

Adam Hughes

Oct. 3, 2001, 7:44 p.m. (Message 27704)

Norah Link wrote:

>>If I had a penny for each person I had to individually 
>>persuade at the 
>>club I dance in that a crib was not an instrument of torture, 
>>but was in 
>>fact "succinct and easy to understand", I'd have more than 20 
>>pence... 
>>Some of them still don't think that.  Most of them are 
>>educated people. 
>>  Most of them are young (under 30).
>>
> 
> 
> P.S. Have you considered that it may also be necessary to redesign your
> cribs so they are easier to understand quickly?


I hadn't given it much thought, mostly because cribs are usually 
provided to all attendees by the organiser, not by our club for our 
members.  Home dances are not a problem since we can ensure we've done 
all the dances in class.

I could try preparing my own cribs for dances I attend, and distributing 
them in our club... but writing cribs isn't something I have much 
experience of.  Any tips on producing good clear cribs would be 
appreciated. (Peter?)

I tend to assume that some care has gone into the production of cribs 
provide for a ball.  I'd feel a bit rude pulling out my own crib when 
one is provided, as rude as taking a my own plate and cutlery to a 
restaurant.

What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling...

Adam
Cambridge, UK
seonaid.gent

seonaid.gent

Oct. 3, 2001, 7 p.m. (Message 27705, in reply to message 27704)

Hi Adam,

I would suggest that you try to compile a standard vocabulary which
you then use in cribs and teaching - if you don't want to write one
yourself, then probably the most accessible is the RSCDS list of
standard terminology which can be found in the RSCDS manual.

I think someone on the list (Anselm?) also produced a list of standard
terminology for figures which had not, as yet, made it into the
manual.

HTH,

Seonaid
PS I've seen plenty of American's step-hopping, although I will
concede that it might not have been in a contra dance!
Malcolm and Helen Brown

Malcolm and Helen Brown

Oct. 3, 2001, 11:08 p.m. (Message 27708, in reply to message 27704)

Greetings

Adam wrote:
 
> What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling...

A few years ago, there was an article in TACTalk about the different
perceptions of dance instructions.   I can't remember the specific
types, but there were basically three.   One group who could 
understand the Pilling diagrams easily, one group who preferred the
written word (i.e. cribs) and the third group who assimilated 
information best through speech (i.e. recaps).   All types are on 
the dance floor and we all think our individual type is best! :-)

Helen
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Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Oct. 3, 2001, 10:41 p.m. (Message 27710, in reply to message 27708)

Ah! we have just found dance perfection:
A person who can look, see, talk and dance all at the same time :>) :>) :>)

Pia
Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov

Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov

Oct. 3, 2001, 10:30 p.m. (Message 27712, in reply to message 27704)

Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>:

> What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling...
>

It's ironic that you cite Pilling as (presumably) an example of clear 
and "unmystical" cribs.  Many feel they are cryptic indeed, and as you 
probably know, they are notorious for their inaccuracies and 
limitations.  Don't get me wrong -- I love 'em and was able to read 
them with no problems within weeks of learning to dance, but from what 
I've observed and been told, my experience was not the norm . . .

Most dances I go to do not rely soley on cribs, anyway.  In these 
parts, 99.9% of the time, dances are always briefed at a social event.  
If the crib wasn't crystal clear, the briefing often helps to clarify.

--Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, MN  USA


*******************************
Lara Friedman-Shedlov     
xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx
*******************************
Adam Hughes

Adam Hughes

Oct. 4, 2001, 1:38 p.m. (Message 27735, in reply to message 27712)

Hi

Lara Friedman-Shedlov wrote:

> Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>:
>>What I'd really like is for everyone to understand Pilling...
> 
> It's ironic that you cite Pilling as (presumably) an example of clear 
> and "unmystical" cribs.  


No, I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people 
could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere 
words...

Like you, I took to Pilling instantly.  It is the way my head works. 
But I am surrounded by dancers who find translating dances from the 
written word to movement very difficult.


> Most dances I go to do not rely soley on cribs, anyway.  In these 
> parts, 99.9% of the time, dances are always briefed at a social event.  
> If the crib wasn't crystal clear, the briefing often helps to clarify.

I have been to only four social events (balls) since I started dancing a 
few years ago which had briefs for all dances.  I organised three of the 
four, and while I have received no hate mail, I certainly am looked down 
on by the local RSCDS Branch for dumbing down SCD.  The fourth was a 
wonderful surprise at last year's SUSCDF at St Andrews, which also had a 
written crib and a page of dances not in the 7th edition supplied in 
Pilling Notation, so all three media were covered.

Is it the norm outside the UK (or even in the UK) for dances to be briefed?

Adam
Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov

Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov

Oct. 4, 2001, 3:28 p.m. (Message 27740, in reply to message 27735)

Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>:
> Is it the norm outside the UK (or even in the UK) for dances to be
> briefed?

Yes, I'd say it is the norm for dances to be briefed in the United 
States and Canada, from my experience anyway (I've been SCD dancing in 
California, Washington state, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, 
Minnesota, and Ontario).  

However, I found that in Scotland, where I learned to SCD in the 1980s 
and early 1990s, it was not the usual practice to brief dances at 
social events (at least not at that time).  When I first started 
dancing here in the U.S.  I thought that giving briefings was kind of 
wimpy, but now I believe they are a very good idea.  For one thing, 
they make a dance far more welcoming to people who are newer to SCD or 
who have a different learning style (who take things in better by 
hearing them rather than reading).  It also makes the dance more 
welcoming to people from out of town, who may not be as familiar with 
the dances on the program as the local folks.

--Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, MN  USA



*******************************
Lara Friedman-Shedlov     
xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx
*******************************
Brian Charlton

Brian Charlton

Oct. 5, 2001, 8:37 a.m. (Message 27755, in reply to message 27740)

G'Day,

Briefing is usually done in Australia, too, particularly at Socials.

When in Scotland for the Summer School a few years ago, we went to the dance
at Carnoustie and were amazed when, not only were the dances called, but
even the name of the dance was not given - the band played 8 bars, the MC
said 'All sets complete?' and away we went!! They even had the hide to thank
the MC!!!

Brian Charlton,
Sydney, Australia
Miriam L. Mueller

Miriam L. Mueller

Oct. 4, 2001, 5:29 p.m. (Message 27744, in reply to message 27704)

Adam Hughes wrote:
. . . I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people

could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere 
words...

Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols
differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the
other. And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings
without my glasses, but cannot read the printed words.

Attended a beginners' class once where the teacher displayed a large
chart of the pillings for the dances she was teaching. As she taught a
figure, or walked through a dance, she would point to the pillings
representation. Classic teaching technique: visual as well as auditory
and kinetic presentation. Great class.

Miriam Mueller, San Francisco
Bryan McAlister

Bryan McAlister

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:53 a.m. (Message 27759, in reply to message 27744)

In article <xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx.-xxxxxx.x.xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>, Miriam L.
Mueller <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx> writes
>Adam Hughes wrote:
>. . . I mentioned Pilling as an example of the worst case since if people
>
>could understand that, surely they'd have no trouble at all with mere 
>words...
>
>Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols
>differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the
>other. And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings
>without my glasses, but cannot read the printed words.
>
>Attended a beginners' class once where the teacher displayed a large
>chart of the pillings for the dances she was teaching. As she taught a
>figure, or walked through a dance, she would point to the pillings
>representation. Classic teaching technique: visual as well as auditory
>and kinetic presentation. Great class.
>
>Miriam Mueller, San Francisco

Excellent.  I find Pillings symbols generally to be clear and
understandable and to date have not come across the many errors that are
always raised by those who don't like Pillings.  
I do agree that there are instances where P. doesn't completely explain
the transition from one figure to another but I am annotate my copy as I
resolve such points.

When I first went to classes I was rebuked by the teacher for reviewing
the Pillings  notes for each dance after we had danced it.  I don't have
any respect for a teacher with that attitude.  As a musician I am
accustomed to symbols and would never start to play the Dashing White
Sergeant by referring to a text which went - longish D, repeat, short D,
short E short Fsharp etc.

Pillings actually contains the solution to a lot of dancers problems
with the instructions for dances but teachers MUST try to teach them how
to use the symbols.
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Email xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx
Mobile phone 07801 793849
FAX number - 0870 052 7625
Ken McFarland

Ken McFarland

Oct. 4, 2001, 6:38 p.m. (Message 27747, in reply to message 27704)

>From: "Miriam L. Mueller" <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
>Ah, no, Adam. Pillings are symbols, and my mind wraps around such symbols 
>differently from words. Many dancers are comfortable with one but not the 
>other.

I think it's great to enable both sets of abilities. I have the opposite 
need from Mimi: I easily understand English-based language words, but 
Pillings eascapes me. They might as well print Pillings in Egyptian 
hieroglyphs, for all the good it does me.

What I find very troubling is when I show up at a Ball or Dance Party where 
a Branch has only printed Pillings. It's as if the right handers are 
discriminating against the left handers, perhaps unintentionally, but 
possibly thoughtlessly...

Ken McFarland


And then there's the eyeglass factor: I can distinguish pillings
Donna Robinson

Donna Robinson

Oct. 4, 2001, 10:38 p.m. (Message 27749, in reply to message 27704)

Hi,

As a newbie to SCD, it has taken vast amounts of determination and fortitude 
to overcome the RSCDS's elitist (sorry guys) attitude w.r.t. cribs and/or 
briefings. I find this somewhat confusing: the RSCDS rolls aren't in great 
shape and yet making life easier for us newcomers doesn't seem a high 
priority!  It is definitely the case that some of our group (Beginners) fight 
shy of attending balls/dances due directly to this lack (although our 
wonderful teacher does help).

Adam Hughes wrote:
> I certainly am looked down on by the local 
> RSCDS Branch for dumbing down SCD
Well Adam, I am a member of that local group, and I can tell you that this is 
*not* the attitude of the "students".  So keep up the good work and the devil 
take the hindmost.

I might add that every single dance at St Andrew's Summer School this year 
was briefed just beforehand irrespective of difficulty level, and cribs for 
all the dances were handed out at the beginning of the week.  Perhaps change 
is on the way ...

Donna
Cambridge, UK
SnowshoeTS

SnowshoeTS

Oct. 5, 2001, 3:08 p.m. (Message 27761, in reply to message 27704)

As has been said by many addressing this thread , different people learn and 
remember in different  ways. I like Bryan's analogy to musical notation.To  
expand on that a bit, I have met skilled and talented musicians who were 
excellant with tablature and almost unable to deal with  anything in standard 
notation  and others who could play anything that they had heard but nearly 
nothing from any written source.
 I too find that I am better able to understand a dance from graphical 
representation but I have met and have had students in class who could read a 
dance in text and dance it perfectly and others who absolutely needed a "walk 
through" neither group was  more nor less intelligent , talented or dedicated 
than the other!!! One must remember that theRSCDS "bigbooks"  contain 
diagrams when the publishers felt that there was a benefit from  them. Even 
the best and most careful  writer/devisor/editor may at times be unsuccessful 
at communicating  with others in some medium though  he/she may understand 
the directions perfectly.Yet I have met a small subset of RSCDS people who 
seem to equate the use of "Pillings" or other graphical representations as  
something between axe-murder and pedophilia. I think that I can say safely 
that I have never taught a class directly from Pillings or cribs without 
reconciling it   the official  dance publication when I had ANY alternative 
.Usually one reinforces the other. I do think that we must use all available 
resources to understand  and execute the dances as well as possible and not 
allow our personal prejudices or  our own preferences to hinder ourselves or 
other dancers!!! To be sure a class or ballroom of people with their noses 
buried in notes can be distracting  so of course common  courtesy  and 
attentiveness are appropriate but so is intellectual flexibility.In my youth 
I ordered a pair of winter boots -ONE SIZE FITS ALL-by mail: indeed size 17 
boots will accomodate most feet but are they less than desireable in many 
situations  ;-]!

Kirk Bachler
Twin Cities Branch,Minnesota,USA,RSCDS

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