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What do you think about this?
Marilynn Knight
Oct. 1, 2001, 5:41 p.m. (Message 27615)
It hit me in the wee hours of this morning. What is the principle difference between Contra Dance Groups and Scottish Country Dance Groups, both ostensibly social: one puts people ahead of perfection, the other puts perfection ahead of people......??? Marilynn Latta Knight Now, why don't I just keep quiet!!!!
Ironically, in our area, the Scottish Country Dance groups are more open socially and more social on the floor - we're always glad to welcome a prospective new partner, and dances always begin and end with bows and courtseys (sp?). At the last contra dances I attended, eye contact was often at a minimum, and the moment the dance ended my partner was gone to look for someone for the next dance. It may have to do with my grey hair, but at least at Scottish there's the illusion, in that final salute, that they wanted to dance with me. Miriam Mueller, San Francisco On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:41:50 -0400 Marilynn Knight <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes:
Marilynn Knight <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes: > What is the principle > difference between Contra Dance Groups and Scottish Country Dance Groups, > both ostensibly social: one puts people ahead of perfection, the other puts > perfection ahead of people......??? Whoa there, controversy alert! This reminds me of one of the entries in my signature file: What is the difference between Jurassic Park and Microsoft? One is a high-tech theme park dominated by dinosaurs, and the other is a Steven Spielberg movie. -- Mike Hammond In fact I happen to believe that both genres do put people first, mostly (and, speaking for SCD groups I have known, in many instances they do!). They may differ in the degree of perfection that is desired by individual dancers, but I shall go out on a limb and claim that there will be contra dancers who strive for perfection just as there will be Scottish country dancers who don't appear to mind scraping by with the barest minimum necessary. Both these species must rely on the indulgence of their fellow dancers :^) Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .......................................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Books don't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. -- A. Whitney Griswold
To me the difference, other than you get much dizzier Contra dancing, is like the difference between Checkers and Chess. Where Both can be learned fairly quickly, one adds another level of complexity and you can spend a lifetime trying to get better. Neither is better than the other, it all depends on your temperament. Jerry
No need to worry, Pia!!! You make me laugh. I intentionally, and naturally, wake early to catch the best of both, the night and the day, when I have rested. I write every morning when my thoughts are unimpeded by anything else. Maybe it comes from childhood when, if I was up by 3:30, I could walk out with my grandfather to get the cows.... Now, how does this relate to SCD? Because I think Breakfast dances would be a lovely custom with breakfast served in courses between dances. Does anyone else agree?
Maybe it comes from childhood when, if I was up by 3:30, I > could walk out with my grandfather to get the cows.... Now, how does this > relate to SCD? Because I think Breakfast dances would be a lovely custom > with breakfast served in courses between dances. Does anyone else agree? > Hi, Marilynn I'm with Pia on this. By you rising habits I would be restricted to 1 1/2 hours of sleep when I need at least 6 to feel even remotely human !! Now I get a few remarks from my 'friends' ! Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces) 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l> xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Greetings,
Marilynn said
> ... Now, how does this relate to SCD? Because I think Breakfast dances
> would be a lovely custom with breakfast served in courses between dances.
> Does anyone else agree?
I think this is an interesting idea. Many years ago, Malcolm had an
idea that he would like to hold a ball in a grand country house and
instead of finishing at midnight or just before as usual, finish with
breakfast. (This never materialised.)
I also had to smile at Marilynn's idea of a Breakfast dance as one of
our sons often tells us "I don't do mornings"! Maybe only the morning
people would be there.
Helen
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|_|_ |_| Malcolm & Helen Brown - York (UK) - x.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xx (Tir-Nan-Og)
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> It hit me in the wee hours of this morning. What is the principle > difference between Contra Dance Groups and Scottish Country Dance Groups, > both ostensibly social: one puts people ahead of perfection, the other puts > perfection ahead of people......??? > > Marilynn Latta Knight > Now, why don't I just keep quiet!!!! It's a compulsion, Marilynn !! :) I suggest it completely depends on the people who make up the clubs, no? Hands up those who go for people _and_ perfection. Well as near as one can get !! :~) Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces) 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l> xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Related question, Does contra dancing have as rigorous a teacher certification process as SCD, with the significant emphasis our process places on at least seeking perfection in technique? Personally, I enjoy the challenge of seeking (but failing to obtain...) perfection, but as my branch well knows, I fear over-emphasis on technique at the expense of just having fun is a major deterrent to mass participation (and perhaps a contributor to declining numbers in SCD groups). Every group has its own personality, of course, but I think our teacher certification process inherently selects for an emphasis on technique. It's a bit of a conundrum, actually - it's the technique that makes SCD Scottish; but it's the technique that makes it hard. Without the technique, it's not SCD, but with too much emphasis on technique, no one does SCD... Thoughts? Counter-points? Lee Send reply to: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx From: Marilynn Knight <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> To: "'xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Subject: What do you think about this? Date sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:41:50 -0400
In a message dated 10/1/01 8:43:22 AM, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx writes:
<< It hit me in the wee hours of this morning. What is the principle
difference between Contra Dance Groups and Scottish Country Dance Groups,
both ostensibly social: one puts people ahead of perfection, the other puts
perfection ahead of people......???
>>
I think the difference is, in what people are willing to do for
recreation. The person who played football is considered a sportman. But the
person who watches it on the TV faithfully is also considered a sportman. I
don't believe anyone puts the dance before the people. It's just a matter of
willingness to extend ones personal abilities in their chosen form of
entertainement.
Contra is a fine form of entertainment but SCD is a more challenging form
to me.
Bob Mc Murtry
Felton, CA
In a message dated 10/1/01 1:06:30 PM, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx writes:
<< Now, how does this
relate to SCD? Because I think Breakfast dances would be a lovely custom
with breakfast served in courses between dances. Does anyone else agree? >>
Marilyn,
Eating is my other hobby. Love the breakfast dance idea. I may have to
devise a few for such occasions.
Bob Mc Murtry
Felton, CA
Well... I don't know about eating between dances (urp, excuse me!)... but several of us from the San Francisco used to (maybe still do) get together for Sunday brunch periodically, as a way of devising dances, trying out dances we had devised, socializing and eating. We even published a book of dances called, surprisingly "Sunday Brunch". Cecilia Stolzer-Grote RSCDS San Francisco Branch Message text written by INTERNET:xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx >Greetings, Marilynn said > ... Now, how does this relate to SCD? Because I think Breakfast dances > would be a lovely custom with breakfast served in courses between dances. > Does anyone else agree? I think this is an interesting idea. Many years ago, Malcolm had an idea that he would like to hold a ball in a grand country house and instead of finishing at midnight or just before as usual, finish with breakfast. (This never materialised.) I also had to smile at Marilynn's idea of a Breakfast dance as one of our sons often tells us "I don't do mornings"! Maybe only the morning people would be there. Helen <
Message text written by INTERNET:xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx > In a message dated 10/1/01 8:43:22 AM, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx writes: << It hit me in the wee hours of this morning. What is the principle difference between Contra Dance Groups and Scottish Country Dance Groups, both ostensibly social: one puts people ahead of perfection, the other puts perfection ahead of people......??? >> < Not necessarily, I've been to many, many Contra Dances where half my partners never looked me in the eye, they were staring off into space... and I'm really not THAT ugly. As with anything, it's usually dangerous to make broad generalizations. Cecilia Stolzer-Grote RSCDS San Francisco Branch
Lee Fuell <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes: > It's a bit of a conundrum, actually - it's the technique that makes > SCD Scottish; but it's the technique that makes it hard. Without > the technique, it's not SCD, but with too much emphasis on > technique, no one does SCD... I think we need to accept the fact that SCD, like most other sports/ performance arts/social pastimes requires a minimal commitment from participants to learn. This is not to say that everybody should make it their most important goal in life to be on the Younger Hall demo team, but as a teacher I like to think that a Scottish country dancer should at least be prepared to make an honest effort to, say, mentally associate `rights and lefts' with a certain floor pattern and use of hands, so they do not have to rely on their fellow dancers to shunt them around the set merely because they themselves can't be bothered to think along. These are the places where `technique' counts most, not steps and foot pointing (which, make no mistake, are nice when they work right, and which many dancers still find important enough to try and master). However the basic formations, phrasing and similar properties of being a dancer _in_a_set_of_other_dancers_ are the technical prerequisites for making SCD social and fun for all -- not just for oneself. I don't feel it is asking too much of dancers to at least try and get a handle on these. Everything else that comes on top of that is, at the end of the day, a luxury that is up to personal ambition, of which some dancers seem to have much more than their fair share and others none at all; it's usually the former who you're going to find at workshops and other venues of self-improvement but the latter can be just as sociable, fun to be with, and important for their groups/clubs/... In other words, we're not all Michael Schumacher but that doesn't make us second-class drivers; we can still go places in our cars and get there without bumping into objects on the way (mostly!). Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .......................................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx While I dance I cannot judge, I cannot hate, I cannot separate myself from life. I can only be joyful and whole. That is why I dance. -- Hans Bos
Anselm, Re: Date sent: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:32:05 +0200 From: Anselm Lingnau <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> > Everything else that comes on top of that is, at the end of > the day, a luxury that is up to personal ambition, of which some > dancers seem to have much more than their fair share and others none > at all; it's usually the former who you're going to find at workshops > and other venues of self-improvement but the latter can be just as > sociable, fun to be with, and important for their groups/clubs/... Excellent points all, especially the above. My concern lies with the potential for "disconnects in perception" between teachers and social dancers, leading to diminishing participation due to classes with too much footwork & other technique practice, not enough dancing (it's happened here). I think the very nature and rigor of our teacher certification process causes our teachers to come from the "more than their fair share of personal ambition" end of the the spectrum (not a criticism, just an observation - it has to take more than middlin' ambition to go through the process). (Note to readers: please don't interpret "ambition" used in this context as a perjorative; it's not.) The potential result is that teachers, given this predisposition for personal improvement, may have a different perception of what constitutes a fun, balanced class than do the socially-oriented class members. So the challenge remains - how do teachers balance the need to maintain the fundamental character of SCD (i.e., proper technique) with the need to develop (or keep) lots of dancers on the floor dancing SCD? Striking the right balance is, I expect, far from easy. Happy dancing, Lee
At 06:43 02/10/01 -0400, you wrote: >So the challenge remains - how do teachers balance the need to >maintain the fundamental character of SCD (i.e., proper technique) >with the need to develop (or keep) lots of dancers on the floor? > Striking the right balance is, I expect, far from >easy. Yes, indeed. (I might even say impossible, since every class and every dancer is different) My way of looking at the problem is to *try* and give people what they seem to be looking for, even if it does jot follow what is prescribed in teacher training. You can usually feel when the class/club members want more of this and less of that, but you'll be lucky if they are unanimous in wanting, for example, more pre-dance exercises, or more new dances, or less "let's just dance", or less "let's just make tea and have a chat." I have also done a lot of foreign language teaching. It is very similar to dance teaching, in that you have to keep people happy as well as getting something into their heads: if the students don't feel relaxed, they won't be ready to join in participatory exercises, question & answer drills, etc. Similarly, if the dancers don't feel they are getting the relaxation/footwork practise, or whatever they happen to wish for, they may well drop out. However much the teacehr may dispporiove of his students' ungrammatical utterances, he has to encourage them and keep a happy smile on everyone's faces. In the same way, whatever we think of our fellow dancers' footwork, we have to show them how glad we are to have them in our classes. Striking a balance means giving a littel bit of everything, not forcing anyone to do more than they want to (and fingers crossed taht the "little bit" will be suffciient to get at least some of the class to imporve their style little by little. If you have read all this before, then I have been on the Strathspey list for too long ! Perhaps I'd better take up contra dancing and see how it compares. Martin, in Grenoble, where summer has returned, skies are incredibly blue, the dancing season has begun ,and all is well.
Anselm & List, Jeez, I'm really in need of that "Oops-Mailaholics Anonymous" 12- step program. At least the last time I did this, the note was more or less on topic. This one isn't even close, and to make matters worse, it regards the specifically-banned WTC issue. I throw myself on the mercy of the court! Lee Donald Lee Fuell, Jr." <<xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx Date sent: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:42:23 -0400 Ruth, One thing Patty pointed out that I missed - the tourist in the picture is wearing a winter coat and stocking cap. September 11 was a pretty warm day; even at the top of the World Trade Center, I doubt it was cold enough for that attire. Although the photo has a "09 11 01" date stamp, that's probably easier to fake than putting in the airplane. Also, I'm skeptical that a camera could survive a fall of over 1,000 ft and the fire and not bust open and overexpose the film. Even with a digital camera, survival of the disk would be questionable. I'm glad Meagan is going. If I hear of anything that causes me concern, I'll let you know. Take care, Lee
Lee Fuell <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes: > So the challenge remains - how do teachers balance the need to > maintain the fundamental character of SCD (i.e., proper technique) > with the need to develop (or keep) lots of dancers on the floor > dancing SCD? Striking the right balance is, I expect, far from > easy. It also depends on the type of class. I have met teachers who are really excellent given a group of people who are keen to learn, in a workshop setting where there is essentially nothing to do but dance, eat, sleep and socialize -- but who I would not be convinced I would ask to have as my weekly teacher in a `general' class. It is always more difficult for a teacher to inspire enthusiasm and the will to excel in people who have a full day's worth of their daily job behind them, especially when these people are the kind of mixture of the ambitious and not-quite-so-ambitious that one tends to have in a `general' class. I agree that this is something which is touched upon very lightly in RSCDS certification classes -- it would be exaggerating unduly to claim that the subject was completely ignored, which at least in my class wasn't the case -- but it must also be appreciated that the ability to do this is not something which is (a) straightforward to teach (or learn) in a 2-week course of instruction, or (b) easy to examine fairly at the end of said course. It must also be reiterated, at the peril of preaching to the choir in this forum, that having passed the RSCDS certificate does not of itself make you a great teacher. If anything it is a vote of encouragement that the certificate holder may one day become one; it's part of the foundations rather than the cap-stone. I'd say that there is much more to a great teacher -- having been fortunate enough to meet a few individuals that, to me, deserve the title -- than can be learned in a certificate class. Which is not to say that certificate classes are useless, only that there are some aspects to SCD teaching that can't really be taught during 80 hours of formal instruction. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .......................................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
In a message dated 10/2/01 6:51:13 AM, xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx writes:
<<
It must also be reiterated, at the peril of preaching to the choir in
this forum, that having passed the RSCDS certificate does not of itself
make you a great teacher. If anything it is a vote of encouragement that
the certificate holder may one day become one; it's part of the
foundations rather than the cap-stone. I'd say that there is much more
to a great teacher -- having been fortunate enough to meet a few
individuals that, to me, deserve the title -- than can be learned in a
certificate class. Which is not to say that certificate classes are
useless, only that there are some aspects to SCD teaching that can't
really be taught during 80 hours of formal instruction. >>
Anselm,
Well said! The enthusiasm of becoming a teacher does not always spill out
into being a good teacher. You do not become an expert when you hang that
certificate on the wall. You become a student again. Teaching is learning and
humility. I continue to learn after many years of teaching and get a good
dose of humility from time to time. The love of teaching does not diminish in
time but gets more challenging.
Bob Mc Murtry
Felton, Calif
My perspective is that a major difference between SCD and Contra is the commitment to learning. Almost all people who want to do SCD well have to go to classes; as a result, most SCDing ends up being in a classroom setting. This produces many effects: 1) dancers will travel far and wide looking for a great teacher 2) teachers have great need to combine sociability, fun, and education 3) dancers who love lessons and learning will feel at home in SCD 4) dancers who don't yearn for perpetual lessons and self-improvement sometimes get fed up. I think the focus on classes is what builds strong SCD communities. I LOVE an evening of dancing; but I think that my strongest social connections have been built in class settings over time. (why?) The extreme example of a classroom relationship is that between student and teacher, and (while I am not a Contra dancer very often) it is hard for me to imagine that kind of relationship building between a caller and dancer. Terry
In a message dated 10/3/01 8:38:39 AM, xxxxxx@xxxx.xxxxx.xxxx.xxx writes:
<<
I think the focus on classes is what builds strong SCD communities. I
LOVE an evening of dancing; but I think that my strongest social
connections have been built in class settings over time. (why?)
>>
Terry,
I think you may have hit upon an important factor. Social connection is
one of the main reasons for a strong SCD group. The reason is, as SCD we need
to dance as a team and not as an individual. If the team fails we all fail.
My experience with Contra is that individuals like to "Grand stand" a bit
more with their twirls and extra turns with little regard to the phrasing and
beauty of the dance. On more than one occasion I have had to catch up in a
dance because others thought it more important to do, just one more twirl.
In SCD we have learned to cooperate and that brings us closer together.
The few times I did Contra, I really felt like an outsider and surely not
part of the group. It may have been just my experience with Contra but SCD
has me in it's grips and I am lost to it until such time the legs and feet no
longer move. Happy dancing.
Bob Mc Murtry
Felton, Calif