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Dancing to pipes - or not!
Ron.Mackey
April 16, 1998, 2:40 a.m. (Message 11659)
Hi, Coletta wrote, > At first blush the > good piper might not sound as "good" as the gawdawful piper, but trying to > keep to a beat that changes is a lot harder to put up with than a sour > note here and there. > Sometimes a drummer could be worth his weight in whisky, if he gives > the piper and dancers a good beat. > > Coletta Busse > Bielefeld > The comment about a good drummer brought to mind some of the old recordings (& a few not so old) especially of strathspeys where a lovely tune or great band was drowned out by a beserk drummer hammering away. Sometimes it was bad recording technique but it seemed that there were some military drummers looking for a job! In our group, especially if a lovely strathspey tune was being ruined the cry would go up, " Someone shoot that ~*# drummer." Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey, 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l>
In article <xxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xx@xxxxxxxxx>, xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.x
om writes
Ron wrote
>>
>The comment about a good drummer brought to mind some of the old
>recordings (& a few not so old) especially of strathspeys where a
>lovely tune or great band was drowned out by a beserk drummer
>hammering away.
>Sometimes it was bad recording technique but it seemed that there
>were some military drummers looking for a job!
>In our group, especially if a lovely strathspey tune was being ruined
>the cry would go up, " Someone shoot that ~*# drummer."
>Cheers, Ron :)
>
> < 0 Ron Mackey,
> 'O> Mottingham,
> /#\ London. UK.
> l>
Good point. Ive often wondered what the H--- drummers thought they were
contributing by playing endless rolls which have little relation to the
pulse of the music. You hear them all over the place.
Maybe its something that should be highlighted to Recording Producers.
>
>--
>xxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
>
Bryan McAlister B. Arch RIBA ARIAS MaPS, Linlithgow,Scotland
Web page http://www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
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Bryan wrote:
> Good point. Ive often wondered what the H--- drummers thought they were
> contributing by playing endless rolls which have little relation to the
> pulse of the music. You hear them all over the place.
> Maybe its something that should be highlighted to Recording Producers.
The point about playing endless rolls which bear little relation to the
music is well made. One thing that would help the drumming to
fit the music would be to make sure that the drummer knew the tune they
were accompanying. Something that pipe band judges are looking for when
adjudicating, is a drum score that is both technically demanding and highly
complimentary to the melody. This is something that I have always
tried to bring to my dance band drumming.
On endless rolls however, please remember we drummers can only play two
fundamental sounds; the tap and the buzz, and just playing on the beat will
send not only the drummer, but also the dancers to sleep! Would you really
like to dance to the tick of a metronome? IMHO a crescendo roll for a few
bars just before a tune change can be most effective.
Duncan
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> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 19:07:17 GMT > From: x.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xx (Malcolm & Helen Brown (York UK)) > The point about playing endless rolls which bear little relation to the > music is well made. One thing that would help the drumming to > > On endless rolls however, please remember we drummers can only play two > fundamental sounds; the tap and the buzz, and just playing on the beat will > send not only the drummer, but also the dancers to sleep! Would you really > like to dance to the tick of a metronome? IMHO a crescendo roll for a few > bars just before a tune change can be most effective. > > Duncan Hi, Duncan Is Dad letting you play with his toys? He's getting very trusting! On the drumming, I'm not technically equipped to make any suggestions as to how or what drummers can contribute but many of them do enhance a band and give a solid rythm, which I understand, and can hear, is a main function of the rythm section. (I'm quite bright on my day!) The main quibble is that instead of being a backing and support, sometimes on tapes and live, bands allow the drums to overpower the tune, especially strathspeys. Many Strathspeys are so beautiful and well played that they can dispense with the drums altogether (heresy?) and allow the dancers to float on the melody. See you at StA? All the best Duncan, nice to hear from you. Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey, 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l>
Greetings Ron - Dad replying as Duncan was only home for the weekend!
I suspect that when we hear recordings with overpowering drums it
is caused by the recording engineer more than the musicians.
I remember one evening when Peter and Pat Clark came round to make
a recording with Alasdair and Duncan for use with Boughs of Holly -
i.e. a 32 bar set of Christmas Carols/Songs - we finished up with
Duncan in the hall, with the others in the lounge just to reduce
the drum level, and he was only using the normal dance band type
side drum on a stand (& not his pipe band snare drum!).
We were all strongly influenced by the Border Reivers dance band
nearly 20 years ago (we went to France with them), and at the
time they had a young drummer called Gordon Smith - he is on several
recordings with other more recent bands. He had learnt his drumming
in a pipe band, and had sufficient control to play along with the
tune. As a consequence this is how Duncan likes to play - you need
to have skill, and to know the tunes, but then you have an additional
instrument in the band, instead of a metronome.
Anyway, to get to the more important part, Helen, Duncan and I are
planning to spend weeks 3 & 4 in St Andrews, but we will have to wait &
see whether your room will be big enough or whether we need to book the
party room! (I wonder why the others are going weeks 1 & 2 - are
we missing something?)
Malcolm
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This talk about pipes and drums raises very deep questions: How do we as dancers (or listeners) discern `the beat' and just as importantly, the end of the phrase? With the pipes this is very difficult for the untrained ear and especially if one does not know the tune. The rhythm is propagated entirely by the timing of each note (on account of the interspersed grace notes, doublings, grips etc.) whereas on every other instrument one has the ability to use emphasis as well as dynamics. As a fiddler and accordionist I try to convey phrasing by the style of playing; and of course the added harmony helps (cadences!). I rarely use drums, though when you get a good dance band drummer it not only helps, it can be a dream come true. Pipe drumming is entirely different: the snare work is really a solo act which is interesting to listen to for its own sake (though not for too long!). Norman Mr Norman Bett Cambridge UK Tel: 01223-248988
On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:48:36 GMT Norman BETT <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> writes: >This talk about pipes and drums raises very deep questions: >How do we as dancers (or listeners) discern `the beat' and just as >importantly, the end of the phrase? I myself am lucky enough to have a good instinctive ear for rhythm; I can't understand how anyone can fail to hear it in most cases, and arhythmic music is almost literally painful to me. As for bagpipes, I was first introduced to SCD in a Renaissance Faire guild, and all we had for music most days was a piper. At first I had a hard time hearing the rhythm because I wasn't accustomed to piping, but I learned to watch her feet for the first few bars. Then I would get the rhythm of the song and I only lost it during particularly complex figures - I'd have to look for her feet again. Now, however, I can just listen for it. But I'm not sure I can explain just what I am listening for; it just happens. By what mechanism *do* we sort out which sounds in a stream of music we are listening for? In the case of music with strong a strong drumbeat or bass line, it's obvious. With piping, all I can say is I listen for a moment; when my foot starts tapping, that's the beat. Cheers, Michelle C. Nogales Dunsmuir Scottish Dancers San Francisco Bay Area
>On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:48:36 GMT Norman BETT <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> writes:
>>This talk about pipes and drums raises very deep questions:
>>How do we as dancers (or listeners) discern `the beat' and just as
>>importantly, the end of the phrase?
Something that struck me when I first started dancing was that,
without trying, I always knew where I was in a given 8 or 16 bar phrase.
It had to do with the pattern of the tune and the way it varies in the last
half of the musical phrase. Once I'd heard the tune, I always knew where I
was in the phrase and which foot I _should_ be on :).
The thing which struck me even more was that there were fellow
beginners in the class who didn't have this understanding. Once I had a
chance to think about it of course, I realised that not everyone has the
same level of exposure to music. I took piano and flute lessons from an
early age, but I had not had much exposure to Scottish traditional music
before starting SCD classes in my early 20's. Yet no matter which "style"
of music one prefers, a long period of careful listening (and perhaps
playing on a musical instrument) will probably give you at least some
understanding of the way various kinds of music is structured. Scottish
traditional tunes are usually structured in a particular way that can be
very helpful to dancers if they know what to listen for.
As for the beat, well like Michelle, to me it's just there, it's
instinctive. Or at least it seems instinctive. I have a feeling that the
experts would tell us that being able to feel rythym is a learned
behaviour. Some of us are just given more opportunity to learn rythmic
movement at a young age than others, so it seems more natural to us. I
once read a fascinating book called "A Soprano on Her Head" that talked
about a music teacher's experiences with her students and their various
problems with learning music, including rythym. I know Bruce and Jo have a
copy somewhere, I've lost mine.
Monica
> >On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:48:36 GMT Norman BETT <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> writes: > >>This talk about pipes and drums raises very deep questions: > >>How do we as dancers (or listeners) discern `the beat' and just as > >>importantly, the end of the phrase? Although most dancers probably do listen for the beat and the end of the phrase this is not always the case. A few years ago we had some children from Donaldson's (the school for the deaf in Edinburgh) who came and joined our class. They were unable to hear the music but were able to pick up the beat from vibrations in the floor. They were then able to work out that there were so many beats per phrase etc. They were super dancers. Seonaid.
Monica wrote;
> As for the beat, well like Michelle, to me it's just there, it's
> instinctive. Or at least it seems instinctive. I have a feeling that the
> experts would tell us that being able to feel rythym is a learned
> behaviour. Some of us are just given more opportunity to learn rythmic
> movement at a young age than others, so it seems more natural to us.
1) I am always slightly amused by the statement (excuse?)of people who do not
dance that they "have no sense of rythm" - I have this vision of them
walking down the street taking steps of randomly differing duration.
2) I have always been convinced that not only can I hear the beat, but
that I always dance on it - only somebody recently said that I dance
behind it. The trouble I have is partly of knowing when the beat starts,
partly of knowing when does it finish, and partly of knowing what should be
happening at these times.
It all seems to start very easily - clap the rythm - so one's hands come
together as the note starts to sound - but to make a second
clap one has to separate one's hands. Similarly to land on the beat
one has to leave the floor, so to execute 4 hops (as in the Fling) one
has to leave the floor 4 times to land 4 times - but to leave the floor
to land the second time first of all the foot touches the floor, then
the body decelerates until it comes to a stop. So should ones foot
hit the floor at the start of the beat, and the head stop moving down at
the end of the beat? In a pas de basque in reel time, does the head
stop moving down at the end of the first crotchet? (And does it stop
moving up again at the end of the second?)
Does this mean we have different interpretations of landing on the
beat in highland and country dancing? (To execute 4 hops in highland
the body must stop moving down early enough to allow for the second
hop.)
(Or perhaps in a pas de basque one is really hopping twice in a bar
whilst in highland one is hopping 4 times?)
And then what happens in jigtime? Does the up movement take a different
length of time from the down movement? (In a p.d.b.)
Maybe it needs a physicist to sort things out.
Malcolm
PS Helen thinks analysis of this sort will not help her dancing, or mine!
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> different interpretations of landing on the > beat in highland and country dancing? (To execute 4 hops in highland > the body must stop moving down early enough to allow for the second > hop.) > > (Or perhaps in a pas de basque one is really hopping twice in a bar > whilst in highland one is hopping 4 times?) > > And then what happens in jigtime? Does the up movement take a different > length of time from the down movement? (In a p.d.b.) > > Maybe it needs a physicist to sort things out. > > Malcolm > > PS Helen thinks analysis of this sort will not help her dancing, or mine! Hi Malcolm, :) :) :) ------- Helen, don't be a spoilsport. Just get him to give us an illustrated - or do I mean - demonstrated lecture in the party room! Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey, 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l>
on 24 Apr 98, xxxxxxxxxx@xx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxx-xxxxxxxxx.xx wrote... > >> >On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:48:36 GMT Norman BETT <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> writes: >> >>This talk about pipes and drums raises very deep questions: >> >>How do we as dancers (or listeners) discern `the beat' and just as >> >>importantly, the end of the phrase? > >Although most dancers probably do listen for the beat and the end of the >phrase this is not always the case. A few years ago we had some children >from Donaldson's (the school for the deaf in Edinburgh) who came and >joined our class. They were unable to hear the music but were able to >pick up the beat from vibrations in the floor. They were then able to >work out that there were so many beats per phrase etc. > >They were super dancers. > >Seonaid. > >-- >"S.M. Gent" <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xx.xx> > I was quite touched by your letter. It reminded me of our own (Cambridge) John Sturrock, a well known teacher and dancer in UK who has very little hearing. Most of the time he works visually, following the rhythmic movements of his fellow dancers but probably also hearing the low frequencies if such there be. He manages wonderfully well too when acting as a stooge for teachers who are learning in that he is lip-reading the instructions. When I play for his Sword Dance or Highland Fling, however, I follow him ! Norman Mr Norman Bett Cambridge UK Tel: 01223-248988
Malcolm & Helen Brown (York UK) wrote: > > Monica wrote; > > > As for the beat, well like Michelle, to me it's just there, it's > > instinctive. Or at least it seems instinctive. I have a feeling that the > > experts would tell us that being able to feel rythym is a learned > > behaviour. Some of us are just given more opportunity to learn rythmic > > movement at a young age than others, so it seems more natural to us. > > 1) I am always slightly amused by the statement (excuse?)of people who do not > dance that they "have no sense of rythm" - I have this vision of them > walking down the street taking steps of randomly differing duration. > > 2) I have always been convinced that not only can I hear the beat, but > that I always dance on it - only somebody recently said that I dance > behind it. The trouble I have is partly of knowing when the beat starts, > partly of knowing when does it finish, and partly of knowing what should be > happening at these times. > > It all seems to start very easily - clap the rythm - so one's hands come > together as the note starts to sound - but to make a second > clap one has to separate one's hands. Similarly to land on the beat > one has to leave the floor, so to execute 4 hops (as in the Fling) one > has to leave the floor 4 times to land 4 times - but to leave the floor > to land the second time first of all the foot touches the floor, then > the body decelerates until it comes to a stop. So should ones foot > hit the floor at the start of the beat, and the head stop moving down at > the end of the beat? In a pas de basque in reel time, does the head > stop moving down at the end of the first crotchet? (And does it stop > moving up again at the end of the second?) > > Does this mean we have different interpretations of landing on the > beat in highland and country dancing? (To execute 4 hops in highland > the body must stop moving down early enough to allow for the second > hop.) > > (Or perhaps in a pas de basque one is really hopping twice in a bar > whilst in highland one is hopping 4 times?) > > And then what happens in jigtime? Does the up movement take a different > length of time from the down movement? (In a p.d.b.) > > Maybe it needs a physicist to sort things out. > > Malcolm > > PS Helen thinks analysis of this sort will not help her dancing, or mine! > > > > -- > _ _ > |_|_ |_| Malcolm & Helen Brown (York UK) - x.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xx (Tir-Nan-Og) > _ |_|_ > |_| _|_| Connecting via NETCOM Internet Ltd > |_| Is this a little like the centipede who got so confused trying to figure out which foot moved when that he finally couldn't move at all? Donna
On Sun, 26 Apr 98 13:00:06 GMT x.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xx (Malcolm & Helen Brown (York UK)) writes: >1) I am always slightly amused by the statement (excuse?)of people who >do not >dance that they "have no sense of rythm" - I have this vision of them >walking down the street taking steps of randomly differing duration. One may not be able to consciously reproduce an effect that is normally taken care of by involuntary processes. A person who has no sense of rhythm might normally walk rhythmically, but if you ask him to deliberately walk to a particular rhythm, whether internal or from an external source, they won't be able to do it. It seems to be a matter of a) hearing or imagining a particular rhythm, and b) translating that rhythm to consistent, matching physical action. Just because you have no problem sneezing when your nose is full of dust doesn't mean you can decide to sneeze whenever you like. (Go ahead, try!) In most cases, it's either completely unconscious and automatic or else it doesn't happen at all. I think those who say they can't sense rhythm mostly really can't, on a conscious level. Cheers, Michelle C. Nogales Dunsmuir Scottish Dancers San Francisco Bay Area dancing to pipes
Hi, Michelle writes > > One may not be able to consciously reproduce an effect that is > normally taken care of by involuntary processes. A person who has no > sense of rhythm might normally walk rhythmically, but if you ask him to > deliberately walk to a particular rhythm, whether internal or from an > external source, they won't be able to do it. It seems to be a matter of > a) hearing or imagining a particular rhythm, and b) translating that > rhythm to consistent, matching physical action. It must be the same in singing. We (when very young -- 20's?) used to go Carol singing before Christmas and one night we were out in the snow - it used to snow before Christmasin those days. One of our number was a charming Irish lad called Tommy Caffrey (now why should I remember that so easily?!) who couldn't sing two notes in tune. One night, walking home as a group, we stopped chatting because Tommy was singing, to himself, in perfect tune. There was silence until he had finished and then we all burst into incredulous laughter because what he had sung in tune were the words of a completely different carol! He never managed to sing in tune again! Cheers, Ron :) < 0 Ron Mackey, 'O> Mottingham, /#\ London. UK. l>
Michelle C. Nogales wrote: > > A person who has no > sense of rhythm might normally walk rhythmically, but if you ask him to > deliberately walk to a particular rhythm, whether internal or from an > external source, they won't be able to do it. This is a very interesting point, Michelle. I think that you are correct. I also think that a sense of rhythm can be taught. I did not have much of a natural sense of rhythm, and so learning to be a percussionist was a long hard struggle for me. And, at least in the classical world, I will never be more than a competant percussionst. However, I did persevere to that degree. (I became a percussionist because a fourth grade teacher decided -- for reasons that I am sure my friends will find as hard to understand as I! -- that I might be hyperactive. She thought drumming would be a way to use up the excess energy.) I'm not even sure there is a "natural sense of rhythm." Some people find it easier than others, but I suspect that most people have to learn it, in the same sense that most people have to learn to match a note, or intervals, or harmony. Finally, I don't see why people should expect it to be any easier for a dancer to learn to precisely execute complex rhythms than it is for a musician. -- Donald
Hi UCP On Apr 27 at 02:02, Donna Ferguson wrote > Is this a little like the centipede who got so confused trying to > figure out which foot moved when that he finally couldn't move at all? > Donna Is that the Wee Kirkcudbright centipede? Regards, Malcolm Gillespie (Zimbabwe) (Internet address: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx)
Malcolm Gillespie wrote: > > Hi > UCP > On Apr 27 at 02:02, Donna Ferguson wrote > > > Is this a little like the centipede who got so confused trying to > > figure out which foot moved when that he finally couldn't move at all? > > Donna > > Is that the Wee Kirkcudbright centipede? > > Regards, > > Malcolm Gillespie (Zimbabwe) > > (Internet address: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx) I think it's the one that got eaten by the Frog in the Middle! Donna