Oct. 8, 2001, 10:39 p.m. (Message 27791)
Lee, Have you been in a Grand March that ended in either a Waltz or Gay Gordons? I personally think that's a nice variation. Honestly, I think everyone expects significant others to dance first and last and a special one, also. I have to say my experience with solidly pre-booking says it is a cross-generational disease...... Anonymous Insouthcarolinasomewhere....
Oct. 8, 2001, 10:56 p.m. (Message 27792, in reply to message 27791)
I agree that pre-booking is not always appropriate but consider this situation: The hall is large, there are 200 dancers. You have a friend you very much want to dance with but said friend always seems to be so far away at the end of a dance, or is sitting on the opposite side of the hall, that if you don't pre-book something, you may never get that nice dance. By the time you have made your way over to the friend he/she has probably found another dance partner. Cheers, Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
Oct. 9, 2001, 2:59 a.m. (Message 27803, in reply to message 27792)
I think the objection that was raised was towards excessive, not occasional, pre-booking. Especially in situations where most of the dancers pre-book most of the dances. Personally, I have never objected to the practice of pre-booking a small number of dances, but I do object to the practice of pre-booking almost every dance. -Don At 4:56 PM -0400 10/8/01, xxxxxxx@xxx.xxx wrote: >I agree that pre-booking is not always appropriate but consider this >situation: >The hall is large, there are 200 dancers. You have a friend you very much >want to dance with but said friend always seems to be so far away at the end >of a dance, or is sitting on the opposite side of the hall, that if you don't >pre-book something, you may never get that nice dance. By the time you have >made your way over to the friend he/she has probably found another dance >partner. >Cheers, >Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA -- ------------------------- Don MacQueen xxxx@xxxx.xxx California, USA -------------------------
Oct. 9, 2001, 12:18 a.m. (Message 27794, in reply to message 27791)
Yes to the Gay Gordons variation, no to the waltz. Any variation that doesn't end formed into sets for the first set dance is fine with me, although the Gay Gordons does seem to go on interminably ("4-by" is plenty). Lee Send reply to: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx From: Marilynn Knight <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> To: "'xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> Subject: Pre-Booking Date sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:39:49 -0400
Oct. 11, 2001, 3:43 a.m. (Message 27847, in reply to message 27791)
Anyone interested there is an interesting collection of "Dance Cards" on :- <A HREF="http://www.drawrm.com/dance.htm">http://www.drawrm.com/dance.htm</A> Traditionally Yours, Colin (Colin Robertson) { http://www.colinrobertson.org.uk }
Oct. 12, 2001, 9:13 p.m. (Message 27865, in reply to message 27791)
>Honestly, I think everyone >expects significant others to dance first and last and a special one, also. >I have to say my experience with solidly pre-booking says it is a >cross-generational disease...... Hot button!!! Characterizing pre-booking as a disease or a form of anti-social behavior as some of the messages in this thread are suggesting is unkind and judgmental. It is truly nobody's business but my own whether or not I pre-book and why. In fact, it is nobody else's business (except perhaps my SO) who I partner in a dance and why. I firmly reject any notion that who I dance with and when and why should be any part of SCD etiquette. I would suggest that those busy-bodies who feel qualified to judge my behavior in this regard have too much time on their hands. Relying on "rules of etiquette" is a substitute for applying good sense and courtesy. Such rules are good for children and for those who are unsure of how to be courteous. Considering the thousands of situations in which one could find oneself, having some guidelines can be very helpful. The problem with relying "rules" rather than your own sense of the best action in a particular situation is that rules cannot cover every situation. Moreover, blind application of what you think to be the rules of etiquette is a sure way to hurt somebody's feelings. For example: "Women don't ask men to dance" is most certainly in somebody's etiquette book. Someone suggested a practice of "conditional booking". That is a minefield I will not touch. While some conditional bookees might actually think it a good approach, others might not like it at all, but out of politeness, they will not tell you so. Personally, I would not accept a conditional booking. A booking is a commitment. A conditional commitment? Give me a break! If it is not a commitment, then it isn't a commitment, is it? If I have booked a dance with someone (which I do infrequently), I will honor that booking. The real problem has nothing to do with pre-booking--it is how to include everyone in the dancing who wants to be included. There is no single solution, but as other messages in this thread have indicated, pre-booking can be used as a tool to be sure some people are included who would otherwise not be. Also, I find the attitude that I would be doing someone a favor by dancing with them to be distasteful. When I dance with someone, it is because I want to and because I expect that we will have fun dancing together. And, interestingly, regardless of who I dance with, it is hardly ever otherwise. Cheers, Oberdan. 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611 USA Voice: (805) 389-0063, FAX: (805) 484-2775, email: xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx
Oct. 13, 2001, 12:57 p.m. (Message 27873, in reply to message 27865)
Whilst at a dance anyone has the right to dance with whoever they like, mass pre-booking does seem to me to cause more problems than it solves. It does ensure that the keen dancers get to dance those dances that they want to dance (they have already got their partners booked) - but it can mean that the other people who do not pre-book but who would also like to do the dance get left on the sidelines because everyone else is paired off! As a non-booker (I don't write things down at a dance because I lose the piece of paper, and I cannot remember which dance I have pre-booked / who I have pre-booked it with - last Saturday I actually pre-booked the following dance because someone already had a partner for the next one, and I really struggled to remember who I had made this arrangement with), I usually look around for someone who looks as if they would like to dance. People standing together chatting on a on-to-one basis are assumed to have paired off for the next dance, which can cause problems if they are left over from the last dance! One of the things which appealed to me about Scottish dancing when I started was that the ladies one asked always accepted (in those days only a broken leg or "sorry, I already have a partner" were the only acceptable excuses); this was a definite improvement on the normal ballroom dance where the men asked, the ladies looked you up and down, and then made a real choice depending on whether or not they fancied you. Nowadays at Scottish dances a few more excuses seem to be acceptable, such as exhaustion, but I'm not too happy with the "I don't know the dance" - if I didn't think I could get them through the dance I wouldn't have asked them! (Of course in this case I assume that the rest of the set are competent - if they aren't then all bets are off!) Why can't we spend a bit more time at dances when we are standing as supporting couples to look around, see who is sitting out, and then make an effort to ensure that they have a partner for the next dance, (by asking them)? Malcolm PS I have a vision of men lining up down one side of the room in single file, with women on the other side. When the next dance is announced the bottom man takes the bottom lady up to the top of the room and so on, so that it is only when they meet that they find out who their partner is! Providing their are slightly different numbers of men and women you should always get a different partner - if there were more people present than could fit on the dance floor then those not dancing would be next in line for the next dance - as well as ensuring different partners it would mean people dancing in different parts of the room; With multiple lines the first couple would go to the top of one line / the next couple to the top of the next and so on. If people wanted a rest they would just not join the line. I'm not too clear whether we would a) let women join the men's line or b) let them change sex during the evening if we did? I can see problems in making it work, but I wonder if they are insurmountable.
Oct. 13, 2001, 8:05 p.m. (Message 27874, in reply to message 27873)
Malcolm's PS brought back memories of about 45 years ago when the family was on holiday in a remoteish spot in the Western Highlands. Despite the remoteness there was Scottish Country Dancing, and a good live band, but I never worked out how partners were selected, as all the men were down the one side of the hall, and all the women were down the other. I was obviously not aware of eye contact then, and was amazed at how the sets formed up in a sort of shimmering movement, with no word spoken other than the MC announcing the dance. To someone then only recently introduced to a dance floor where people sat in mixed groups round the room and would even cross the floor to find a partner this was fascinating. Whether it still happens that way I have no idea. Incidentally, I find the current trend of women asking men to dance very refreshing. Andrew.
Oct. 13, 2001, 8:47 p.m. (Message 27875, in reply to message 27873)
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Malcolm Brown wrote: > Whilst at a dance anyone has the right to dance with whoever they like, mass > pre-booking does seem to me to cause more problems than it solves. I have often felt that mass pre-booking is done by insecure dancers or those married to insecure dancers. > As a non-booker I book one dance with my hisband, but if he came dancing more often, I probably wouldn't. . . I also book a dance with a disabled dancer, on crutches or with a cane. (I pick the dance.) So often these wounded dancers are there just to remember and listen to the music. Having someone to say a few words to or smile at adds to their limited pleasure. This year at the boston Ball, I booked one dance. I had walked diagonally across the hall to where Maurice Whitby was sitting, and, knowing he NEVER booked, asked him if he had any strathspeys free. He replied that he was seriously debating doing one fast dance and would I consider Australian Ladies. so a few dances later, we did AL. I'm so glad. A lasst dance with an old friend now deceased and that dance was one written by another old friend also deceased. > Why can't we spend a bit more time at dances when we are standing as > supporting couples to look around, see who is sitting out, and then make an > effort to ensure that they have a partner for the next dance, (by asking > them)? Back when women never asked men to dance with them, I found that the dance "down the middle and up" was ideal for finding a partner for the next dance. On the way down, smile at your partner while dancing in to take hands; next as you are both going down the center, look past him to the third man with a broad smile; ditto man number four. On the way back up, you can usually manage to smile at the third man again, and at the second man. I found this system quite reliable. And I feel sure that my partner ws using the same figure to assess his possibilities for the next dance. . . Getting back to the point made by Malcom, we can not only ask the dancers sitting out, but we can continue to dance with them -- and in a few years, find ourselves married to them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx.xxx)
Oct. 13, 2001, 9:22 p.m. (Message 27876, in reply to message 27873)
On 13 Oct 2001, at 11:57, Malcolm Brown wrote: > <...> pre-booking <...> does ensure that the keen dancers get to > dance those dances that they want to dance <...> but <..> other > people <...> get left on the sidelines because everyone else is > paired off! As all Women are free to choose any partner, at the most one woman could be left "unpaired" against her will. But can any Men divulge their strategy on how to avoid being left isolated as the available ladies pair off in twos? I have yet to see any men joining a set as a two-man couple ! Eric Eric T. Ferguson, van Dormaalstraat 15, NL-5624 KH EINDHOVEN, Netherlands tel: (+31)(0)40-243 2878 fax:40-246 7036 e-mail: x.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx
Oct. 13, 2001, 9:51 p.m. (Message 27877, in reply to message 27876)
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Eric Ferguson wrote: > ladies pair off in twos? I have yet to see any men joining a set as > a two-man couple ! This seems to be socially questionable, at least in the United States. It happens to me most often if I've gone off to get a drink of water and returned after the mass partner-choosing. At any rate, I've always gotten strange looks (and usually some disapproving ones) for doing this, which strikes me as a little bit sad. I don't think there's any method for avoiding it, though--dancers will disapprove according to their own values, and I have _no_ idea how to get that to stop :). Maybe they just don't like it because it messes up their internal dance patterning to see a 180-lb 5'11" gentleman dancing as a lady. Cheers, Hollis
Oct. 14, 2001, 10:54 a.m. (Message 27884, in reply to message 27876)
Eric Ferguson wrote: > > On 13 Oct 2001, at 11:57, Malcolm Brown wrote: > > > <...> pre-booking <...> does ensure that the keen dancers get to > > dance those dances that they want to dance <...> but <..> other > > people <...> get left on the sidelines because everyone else is > > paired off! > > As all Women are free to choose any partner, at the most one woman > could be left "unpaired" against her will. But can any Men divulge > their strategy on how to avoid being left isolated as the available > ladies pair off in twos? I have yet to see any men joining a set as > a two-man couple ! I have found myself doing that. Most often in class, where, as teacher, I am always last to be partnered, but it has happened at balls as well. Alan
Oct. 13, 2001, 10:14 p.m. (Message 27878, in reply to message 27791)
I completely support your open minded opinion Oberdan. If we expect dancers to behave responsibly and courteously, and give them the information that they need to make their own decisions, we should then keep out of their personal business. Also, a real difference can be made by an MC. A pleasant reminder/s by the MC to bring dancers in is usually honored by the dancers on the floor. As a community, we could do better at training our MC's in how to present inclusiveness. And to me, a reminder is just a reminder, not a wagging finger. Ken McFarland
Oct. 13, 2001, 10:30 p.m. (Message 27879, in reply to message 27791)
>I have yet to see any men joining a set as a two-man couple ! >Hollis wrote: >This seems to be socially questionable, at least in the United States. At >any rate, I've always gotten strange looks (and usually some >disapproving ones) for doing this, which strikes me as a little bit sad. I disagree Hollis. I've danced in many communities in the US where it is common (or at least not unheard of) for men to pair up. And I've rarely ever seen any critical looks from the members. Ken McFarland
Oct. 14, 2001, 5:28 a.m. (Message 27882, in reply to message 27791)
Hi In Minnesota SCD (and also in most local folk-dance circles ) it is not considered either unreasonable or unmanly for a male to dance on the "women's" side especially to fill out a set. The first time Idid so the only problem was with the allemand-Iam 6'2'' tall and my partner (a very much less experienced dancer) was about 5'4'' tall-slight adjustments in the beginning made it work out well enough ;-}. The only disapproval seems to come from the G***'s Aunties ( of either sex). The biggest problem seems to be that males don't dance on the complementary side often enough so in complicated figures or "set melt downs"(not that we EVER have those!!!!!) we tend to head for the men's side to sort things out .This leads to attempts to break fundamental laws of physics!!! Kirk Bachler Twin Cities Branch,Minnesota,USA,RSCDS We have met the enemy and he is us.
Oct. 14, 2001, 6:59 a.m. (Message 27883, in reply to message 27791)
In a message dated 10/13/2001 7:22:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx writes: > Whilst at a dance anyone has the right to dance with whoever they like, mass > pre-booking does seem to me to cause more problems than it solves. > I've finally decided to plunge into this thread. I've danced quite a bit in the eastern US and Canada, as well as in a few parts of southern England, continental Europe and even in Africa (Botswana and Zimbabwe) and India, and I'm happy to say that I've never encountered the pre-booking phenomenon (malaise) except in its mildest forms. And I hope I never will. (For example, I have never seen dancers filling out their ball programmes with names against each dance.) I would welcome advice (privately perhaps) about any black spots in the world so far as pre-booking is concerned. And, as for men dancing on the ladies side, this happens quite often at Pinewoods (as you, Hollis, may recall) since there are often more men than women doing SCD while the step classes are taking place. And I certainly learned something dancing the allemande as a woman with a partner several inches shorter than myself. Chris.
Oct. 15, 2001, 3:12 p.m. (Message 27887, in reply to message 27791)
Has anyone in this debate defined what counts as "pre-booking"? Does it mean before the end of the previous dance, or else at what stage of the "gap" between dances? When a club is sitting together (as usually seems to happen) it is a bit embarassing to intrude in their huddle at the beginning of the "gap" to ask and then have to hang around with no seat - or do you go back to your own seat until the dance is called? Perhaps a better time is when people are walking back after the previous dance, but this conflicts with thanking one's partner and escorting her back to her seat. I also like to make sure I've checked Pilling or the crib sheet before asking anyone for a dance I don't know well. If one waits until the next dance is announced and is then refused (e.g. because "I'm sitting this one out" or "I'm only doing Strathspeys") it is often too late to ask anyone else. I wonder if seeing men dance together would discourage some women from arranging to dance together? I've never seen it (men dancing together) done outside of classes. Andrew Buxton Brighton, UK Eric Ferguson wrote: > > On 13 Oct 2001, at 11:57, Malcolm Brown wrote: > > > <...> pre-booking <...> does ensure that the keen dancers get to > > dance those dances that they want to dance <...> but <..> other > > people <...> get left on the sidelines because everyone else is > > paired off! > > As all Women are free to choose any partner, at the most one woman > could be left "unpaired" against her will. But can any Men divulge > their strategy on how to avoid being left isolated as the available > ladies pair off in twos? I have yet to see any men joining a set as > a two-man couple ! I have found myself doing that. Most often in class, where, as teacher, I am always last to be partnered, but it has happened at balls as well. Alan --- Andrew Buxton Information Systems Manager Institute of Development Studies University of Sussex BRIGHTON BN1 9RE Tel. (0)1273 678762 Fax. (0)1273 621202 IDS is a charitable company no. 877338
Oct. 15, 2001, 9:41 p.m. (Message 27893, in reply to message 27791)
Two days ago I was at the Houston, Texas ball and experienced the annoyance that pre-booking causes. After each dance I would thank my partner, return to my seat, write her name down, and then go find a partner for the next dance. Frequently I would have a difficult time finding a partner due to so many people finding partners right after the dance ended and even before looking at the dance listing to find out what was next. So what I did was memorize the name of the dance preceding the one I intended to take a restroom break for and left after it ended. That way I knew that I didn't need to look at the dance roster to make sure that I knew the dance well becuase I had arranged to be conveniently absent during the dance which I was not prepared for. This way I could stay in the middle of the dance floor the whole time and be sure to get the partner I wanted for the next dance. It worked rather well and I got to dance with several of the excellent dancers who were always taken previously. Jonathan Elder
Oct. 15, 2001, 9:41 p.m. (Message 27894, in reply to message 27791)
Two days ago I was at the Houston, Texas ball and experienced the annoyance that pre-booking causes. After each dance I would thank my partner, return to my seat, write her name down, and then go find a partner for the next dance. Frequently I would have a difficult time finding a partner due to so many people finding partners right after the dance ended and even before looking at the dance listing to find out what was next. So what I did was memorize the name of the dance preceding the one I intended to take a restroom break for and left after it ended. That way I knew that I didn't need to look at the dance roster to make sure that I knew the dance well becuase I had arranged to be conveniently absent during the dance which I was not prepared for. This way I could stay in the middle of the dance floor the whole time and be sure to get the partner I wanted for the next dance. It worked rather well and I got to dance with several of the excellent dancers who were always taken previously. Jonathan Elder
Oct. 16, 2001, 3:52 a.m. (Message 27898, in reply to message 27894)
xx.xxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx wrote: > This way I could stay in > the > middle of the dance floor the whole time and be sure to get the partner I > wanted > for the next dance. It worked rather well and I got to dance with > several of the > excellent dancers who were always taken previously. Your strategy wouldn't have worked at our last monthly party because the announcers insisted on dancers clearing the floor between dances. In our branch they do usually make a point of reminding dancers to escort their partners to the sidelines after each dance, which IMO is not only a courtesy but helps keep people from monopolizing partners and/or the prime dancing areas in the hall. -Steve -- Steve Wyrick <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> -- Concord, CA
Oct. 16, 2001, 5:50 a.m. (Message 27900, in reply to message 27791)
Well, that which works for some, is a big problem for others. I dislike the "clearing of the floor" we have at our dances because I am not very tall (O.K., I'm really short) and when everyone gathers at the bottom of the hall, it becomes a big mob, one in which I become almost invisible. I've seen what I thought of as prospective partners looking right over my head to find some one to dance with. This can be very frustrating. Paula Jacobson Aptos, California