Thread
Index
Cribs
Peter Hastings
Oct. 4, 2001, 10:53 a.m. (Message 27729)
As one of a small group of Strathspeyers looking at the vexed question of cribs I would like to make a few observations. As Malcolm noted, different people have different ways of remembering what they need to to dance a particular dance. Some work with patterns and for them a visual aide-memoire like Pillings may be the most useful. Others work with sequential series of instructions and for them either a written or spoken re-cap is more suitable. Cribs are provided at dances for those whom they suit. They may well not be written in a way which suits you, even if you are one of those who prefers a written re-cap. The terminology may be different, or particular points in the dance may be emphasised when the difficult point in the dance, for you, is not highlighted. In such a case it is not only polite, but better for you and those with whom you dance for you to use your own notes. The use of the supplied cribs is not mandatory - they are simply offered for the assistance of those who have nothing else. The obvious solution to unintelligible cribs is, as some have suggested, to produce a standard crib terminology in the same way that Pilling has a standard lexicon of symbols. Such a solution has the same drawback as has Pillings - if the 'standard' doesn't suit you then you won't use it. The next section needs to be in capitals. Cribs are personal aides-memoires. They should be written, after having danced the dance in question, by the person who will have to use the crib. Other people may find them useful or not. End capitals. A spoken briefing will cater for those who best take in information aurally. All three forms are needed if the largest number of folk are going to do the dance succesfully. If all three are used, certain consequences result: Those who brief can't get snotty with those who appear to be reading while they are re-capping. You may think they're not paying attention to the dance but really they're just not paying attention to you. People who are reading (words or pictures) during the re-cap need to shut up so that the briefing can be heard. Simple, isn't it ? Peter Hastings Royal Observatory Edinburgh :)
> What I find very troubling is when I show up at a Ball or Dance Party where > a Branch has only printed Pillings. It's as if the right handers are > discriminating against the left handers, perhaps unintentionally, but > possibly thoughtlessly... Pillings (the company) discourage this practice. If you pass on the names of the organisers who do this, then lawyers' letters will be sent promptly... Diagrams, cribs and verbal re-caps are provided at the organisers' discretion. If they're not there, live with it, suggest that they might be supplied in future and consider whether you want to go to such an event again. If you decide not to, don't just not attend - let the organisers know why. All forms of re-capping detract from the time available to dance. As do socialising, eating and other associated activities... Peter Hastings Royal Observatory Edinburgh :)
At 09:10 05/10/2001 +0100, Peter Hastings wrote: > > What I find very troubling is when I show up at a Ball or Dance Party >where > > a Branch has only printed Pillings. It's as if the right handers are > > discriminating against the left handers, perhaps unintentionally, but > > possibly thoughtlessly... > >Pillings (the company) discourage this practice. If you pass on the names of >the organisers who do this, then lawyers' letters will be sent promptly... But then, at least in US law, you cannot patent symbolic notation or language (that's been pretty well tested in various computer language cases). And copyright applies to the description of a dance, not to the symbology or language used. So I doubt it they'd be successful in US courts. Actually, there is a strong argument that the fact that the Pillings (company) publishes and sells translations of copyrighted dances (without acknowledgement to the copyright holders, and I suspect without permission in some cases), constitutes a greater breach of copyright law. But then I'm not a lawyer, so my opinions are irrelevant :-) -- Alex Tweedly, San Francisco Branch and ex-Dance Translator.
In the pre-computer days when "cut and paste" meant cut and paste, I
was doing program books for my branch. We used both word cues and
Pillings.
The process was to dismantle two of Pillings's books coating
alternative pages with adhesives and mounting them on plastic 3x5
index cards, doing the same for our word cues on the other side of the
same card.
Using a "map", all we had to do was stick the Pillings' and word cues
onto 2 sheets of paper and xerox a reduced copy of of these back to
back, fold a certain way and staple, producing a 16 page program [2x3
inches] which included:
1: Title Page.
2- 7: Dances 1-10.
8- 9: Program listing and spaces for partner's names
10-17: Dances 11-20.
16: Announcements of future events.
Where a copyright might be broken was the actual reproduction of the
Pillings' pages. Had we simply copied the system, we would be no more
guilty than the Boy Scouts signaling in Morris's code. Imaging the
navy getting permission for sending SOS as "...---...".
Since we were performing an educational service not for profit the
original owners of copyrighted dances would have no complaints as we
were promoting their product, as opposed to making a profit on the
sale of their dances as one might consider Pillings doing. Seriously,
though, I considered Pillings providing a service at cost as opposed
to making a profit. Anything Pillings made over cost could be
justified as payment for his labor out of the value he added to the
original product.
R Goss
xxxxxxx.x.xxxx@xxx.xxx
>Seriously, though, I considered Pillings providing a service at cost >as opposed to making a profit. Anything Pillings made over cost >could be justified as payment for his labor out of the value he >added to the original product. I most wholeheartedly agree. The Wee Green Book is a wonderful product at a most reasonable price. However stories about Pillings heirs taking hard positions on copyright infringement of the contents of their book are a bit much to bear, considering that neither they nor the original Mr. Pillings sought permission from the creators of all those dances to include them in the book. I thank them for that wonderful little publication. I thank Mr. Pillings for devising a great symbolic system which has been IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN since the day it was published (i.e. anyone can use it as they wish, although they should not claim credit for creating it). The system Goss used many years ago for creating cribs could strictly be considered a copyright infringement since it involved direct duplication of the original graphics in the book. It is likely that that infringement actually resulted in MORE sales of Pillings books as a wider audience became familiar with the system. It is doubtful that any reconstruction of a dance description with the symbolic system could be upheld as copyright infringement as long as it was clearly not a photocopy of any artwork in the book. Furthermore, given the laxity of Pillings and heirs in obtaining permissions for the contents of their book, there is no ethical basis for obtaining permission from them to use the symbolic system for any regenerated descriptions or generations of dance descriptions that never appeared in the book. Since they have been so ungenerous and so shortsighted as to deny any such permission in the past to people who were either legally unsophisticated or just trying to be courteous, I would simply ignore their feelings on the subject and use the system when and where I pleased. Furthermore, if any SCD person or organization were the victim of an actual legal challenge by the Pillings heirs, I would happily contribute to their legal defense fund. It would be very satisfying to see the Pillings heirs lose a legal challenge on the use of the symbolic system or to be slapped down for making a frivolous suit. My guess is that the worldwide sales of Pillings is woefully insufficient to support a legal challenge that did not actually succeed. Chances of their following up on a threat to sue with a legal foundation as shakey as theirs are tiny. Something the Pillings heirs should consider is marketing a computer program to generate diagrams from computer-encoded descriptions. It could be sold as "shareware" for $15 to $25, with periodic database upgrades for $5. Furthermore, as the size and price of PDA's come down it is only a matter of time before a clever computer-savvy SCDer learns how to host these diagrams on PDAs and every other person on the dance floor is carrying one in their pockets/sporrans instead of a WGB. That is the legal/ethical/futurist opinion of someone who is not a legal/ethical/future expert. Cheers, Oberdan. 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611 USA Voice: (805) 389-0063, FAX: (805) 484-2775, email: xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx
Richard Goss wrote: > 8- 9: Program listing and spaces for partner's names <strangling noise> Please tell me that the most archaic and elitist custom of booking dances ahead is dying out elsewhere too. A 19 year old friend of mine arrived 15 minutes late for her home club's ball last year, which resulted in her dancing 4 dances of 20 in the evening, all with her mother. But they all want more young people in their club... I'll be hearing next that women aren't allowed to ask men to dance... Adam
Adam Hughes wrote: >Richard Goss wrote: > >> 8- 9: Program listing and spaces for partner's names > ><strangling noise> Please tell me that the most archaic and elitist custom of booking dances ahead is dying out elsewhere too. A 19 year old friend of mine arrived 15 minutes late for her home club's ball last year, which resulted in her dancing 4 dances of 20 in the evening, all with her mother. But they all want more young people in their club... Please say which club it was, I want to make sure I never go there! David
Although I have heard horror stories about this, I (thankfully) have never encountered it to any serious degree in any of the places I've danced. Many of the balls I've attended offered booklets that had space where you could write in your dance partner's name, but they were not necessarily used to book ahead (except maybe one or two dances with the spouse or significant other). Many people, myself included, just like to write in their partner's name after the fact and keep the booklet as a souvenir of the dance. --Lara Friedman-Shedlov Minneapolis, MN USa Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>: > Richard Goss wrote: > > > 8- 9: Program listing and spaces for partner's names > > <strangling noise> Please tell me that the most archaic and elitist > custom of booking dances ahead is dying out elsewhere too. A 19 year > > old friend of mine arrived 15 minutes late for her home club's ball > last > year, which resulted in her dancing 4 dances of 20 in the evening, > all > with her mother. But they all want more young people in their > club... > > I'll be hearing next that women aren't allowed to ask men to dance... > > Adam > > ******************************* Lara Friedman-Shedlov xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx *******************************
Responding to further up the thread. I have always felt that it takes an elitiest to call a practice elitist. The provided space will be used or not whether provided or not by those who wish to pre-book dance partners. It has always happened in one way or another from elitist balls that are really dances to someone saying ... Hey, Mary save me a dance. Sure, how about .... See you then. Strange that it is often an elitist who uses the term elitist refering to a different elete. The way I see it (and the practice has never bothered me one way or another), if you do not like the practice, the next time someone says, save dance number 16 for me, respond with, "Sorry, I don't pre-book, but if you ask me after dance 15, I'll dance with you if I am free." If you do not like the practice because you come late and get left out, come earlier with your pencil sharpened. I do agree that some get a little carried away with the practice. I have been to out of town weekends where there are "mini-mixers" between dinner and ball, and if one is not careful, ones evening is planned before it begins. At the same time, I do like to dance with special people, and the program is a good place to remind myself that I have reserved some dances for them. In my experience, I have always kept my booked dances to less than half the program. Goss xxxxxxx.x.xxxx@xxx.xxx
>>> xxxxxx@xx.xxxxx.xxx 04/10/01 15:28 >>> Quoting Adam Hughes <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>: > Is it the norm outside the UK (or even in the UK) for dances to be briefed? Hi All, Our practice here for balls and socials (like our Summer Social this coming Friday) is to provide crib sheets before the time. Our teachers try to go through the dances on the programme during classes in the weeks before the event. At the event itself, the dances are called. At our Club, we have an social evening of dancing in lieu of classes once a month. Cribs aren't provided for that. The idea is that the dances are called, but not walked through, to give especially new folk the chance to get used to this. This year, however, we've had a number of enthusiastic new folk and for a few of the more complicated dances we've actually walked them through rather than just calling them, although the easier and more well-known ones are just called. We would rather do that and have our new and less experienced dancers join in, than stick to the practice of only calling the dance and having the new people feel too intimidated or nervous to join in. For the more advanced dances, the more experienced dancers also try to partner the less-experienced to help them along. Terry Lynne Harris Pretoria, South Africa
>>> xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx 08/10/01 15:29 >>> Richard Goss wrote: > 8- 9: Program listing and spaces for partner's names <strangling noise> Please tell me that the most archaic and elitist custom of booking dances ahead is dying out elsewhere too. Hi All, When I started SCD 5 years ago, I was told of the practice of booking dances at balls. As a newcomer, I felt somewhat intimidated by the idea. In those 5 years, however, I haven't been to a ball or social where booking was the norm, thank goodness. I do indulge in a very limited amount of booking now and again, usually for sentimental reasons. Others in the Club do so as well, for certain special dances. But it's certainly not the norm. Terry Lynne Harris Pretoria, South Africa