March 31, 2006, 10:09 p.m. (Message 44938)
Proposal for inclusion on Strathspey Server... Over 700 schoolchildren dance in Glasgow There has been some media coverage of the remarkable Children’s Festival of Dance held in the Kelvin Hall, Glasgow on 14th March 2006, and the beacon lit there has been quickly spotted, as far afield as New Zealand. Over 700 primary schoolchildren excitedly dancing to the Scottish beat was a sight which I feel privileged to have witnessed. There has also been deserved praise for the people involved in its organisation – particularly, the Education Dept. PE people, the schoolteachers, and the band. Most of these contributors were being paid for their efforts. I feel the point has been missed that the whole event would undoubtedly have fallen flat, had it not been for the unstinting involvement of several other people. The Glasgow Branch teachers who made regular visits to teach the dances to included schools [Some to four schools], were in fact the hinge pins on whom the entire event succeeded. As each school’s team entered the venue a clear empathy bond between these individuals and the children was made obvious by the excited waves and calls. That introduced an air of familiarity to what could otherwise have developed into tense nervousness. Then there were other Glasgow Branch members who liaised so effectively with all the “officials” over many weeks, to bring everything together. Lastly, and by no means least, were the Glasgow Branch [and other] members who freely gave their time and efforts on the day. Without these people, many of the children would not have succeeded in completing their dances. Without these people, the organisation on the dance floor would have been chaotic on many occasions. The best example of this was the Dashing White Sergeant, where every child present was on the floor and keen to dance. The eventual result was an unprecedented [in my experience] FOUR concentric circles of dancers – an unrehearsed and unexpected formation, since it had been envisaged that two rings would accommodate all dancers. This was all sorted out in a very short time and diligently policed during the dance, to ensure children progressed within their circles. Without that input, the whole dance would probably have dissolved into chaos after one or two iterations. As it was, the children completed all, virtually without a single hitch and were avid to repeat it. Even on the occasions where a group of three found there was no other trio for them to join for the next iteration, they responded well to the suggestion that they should just dance on their own [a common solution in ceilidh dancing], and were fed into a correct progression for the next round, spawning another un-matched trio, who merely did the same under instruction. Result – all of the children danced all of the time – an unsung accolade to the helpers. The other tremendous thing worthy of note, was the fact that these were not “Elite Demonstration Teams” and this was not a competition or examination of excellence. These were very ordinary kids. In many cases, their footwork was appalling [by RSCDS standards]. Their figures were inspirational and inventive, rather than prescribed. Their timing left a lot to be desired. But their vibrant enthusiasm to be involved was forcefully evident. The schools were separated into two groups [Red and Yellow], because even this massive floor could not accommodate all of the dancers at one time and give sufficient space to dance effectively. Despite the slight degree of rivalry this inspired, kids from the red team excitedly volunteered to complete sets for the yellows and vice versa. They [Both GIRLS and BOYS] wanted to dance, because they truly enjoyed every second of it. So why is RSCDS crumbling towards oblivion and unable to attract young people? There is no doubt in my mind. Modern children [and young adults], of many nationalities, find dancing to good Scottish music, totally irresistable. These same modern children [and young adults] generally refuse to submit to the severe regimentational standards imposed by RSCDS. Standards, which were excellent for the era in which they were introduced as ground breaking procedures and policies, are now seen as irrelevant, “kill – joy” and “stuffy”, by current generations. As the youngsters would put it --- “RSCDS needs to LOOSEN UP”. Filling our nice new glossy [expensive?] headquarters magazine with pictures of the youngest people they can find [40-something, going on teenage] may convince you that all is well, but I have seen that monstrous chilling iceberg on our current horizon. The ship will undoubtedly founder unless action is taken to CHANGE COURSE. No amount of chanting “We are unsinkable” will have any impact on the inevitable outcome. No doubt many first class passengers and officers will survive, but the society will perish. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the band also [voluntarily] went down with the ship on that previous occasion. Unfortunately, I am only a common steward and the “Gold Braid” on the bridge are obviously applying their “Nelson’s Eyes” to their telescopes, while holding their hands over their ears and chanting “Laa laa laa” – [or should that be “Laa Diddley a laa” per “The Simpsons”?]. Not by any means an easy feat. Meanwhile, the Ball continues in the Grand Stateroom. Discussions on the necessity to return a lady partner to her seat [et alia] are no more than a Scotch Mist smoke screen. It is time to bring the Scottish People’s Dancing back to the People and leave stringent competitive dancing styles to those who wish to dance in competitions. Please note that I am not suggesting extinction of competitive styles, but there is a time and a place. First nurture that enthusiasm of youth, then introduce style to those sufficiently interested, but maintain a tolerant attitude to those who merely want to dance in a CIVILISED manner – exactly as we actually do at all dances [and ceilidhs] I have ever attended. I would not wish to see a return to pre-RSCDS rowdiness reportedly exhibited by some individuals in the past. There is a middle ground Any teenage volunteers for forming a Scottish Gavotte Society? I think NOT. Dick Daniel
March 31, 2006, 10:46 p.m. (Message 44939, in reply to message 44938)
Well said..... There are many of us who feel the same. I take a class of adult beginners which was started from a weight watchers class and were told to 'get more exercise' the Health visitor was proactive and asked me to take the class. They have great fun, and such an enormous sense of achievement when they complete a dance successfully. Through the class, some people who had previously been isolated have made new friends, last week 12 of them went to their first 'proper dance' where a neighbouring group (an RSCDS Branch with an understanding teacher) had gone to the trouble of including some easy dances they could do (consulting with me on what we had covered in class). Now they want to organise their own dance - their enthusiasm is boundless. It is making a big difference to these people's lives. They will never have good footwork, but they are learning the figures, and the timing - their Allemande is already better than many I see on the dance floor, because they are now telling me they want to do it correctly. I also support the view that excelling at dancing is not wrong. We admire our sporting heroes. People from all over the world support Manchester United because they are the best, they don't support the lower division teams. So I do not see why it is wrong to want to dance well. I do however think there is a time and place for both and that all levels are to be encouraged. Enthusiasm and fun are the key. Happy Dancing Sue Petyt www.suepetyt.me.uk Skype Sue Petyt
April 1, 2006, 2:06 a.m. (Message 44941, in reply to message 44938)
Dick Daniel wrote: > So why is RSCDS crumbling towards oblivion and unable to attract young > people? There is no doubt in my mind. Modern children [and young adults], > of many nationalities, find dancing to good Scottish music, totally > irresistable. These same modern children [and young adults] generally > refuse to submit to the severe regimentational standards imposed by RSCDS. > Standards, which were excellent for the era in which they were introduced > as ground breaking procedures and policies, are now seen as irrelevant, > kill joy and stuffy, by current generations. As the youngsters would > put it --- RSCDS needs to LOOSEN UP. Consider the following: Everybody can have fun kicking a rusty can around the street, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with having fun that way even if »proper« footballs are round and made from leather. However, playing organised football does take some practice and dedication, but since people are actually trying hard to be accepted by the better teams when they could just as well keep kicking rusty cans around the street, doing it »properly« must obviously be more fun than can-kicking. And incidentally, football DOES have rules, and some rather more complicated ones than SCD at that. Even so, nobody suggests »loosening up« the rules of football to make the game more accessible to the can-kicking public. Dancing (any kind, not just SCD) is just the same. It is absolutely true that one can have lots of fun in SCD as a new dancer, especially if one's teacher does not confuse the dance floor with a military parade ground. But the sort of fun that one derives from, say, doing a sequence of the more intricate figures of The Celtic Brooch with five good dancing friends is something that only comes with a certain amount of practice and dedication, and no amount of »loosening up« will change that. The point is that the fun is already there to be had at all levels of dancing. It is up to the more experienced dancers to make new dancers feel welcome enough so they can grow up to be experienced dancers themselves. The Glasgow school kids affair only goes to prove that SCD can be fun even if the correct pointing of feet is not the first priority, and the fact that Glasgow Branch teachers did the teaching only goes to show that the RSCDS *is* actually »loosening up« already. Apparently the RSCDS were down there in the thick of it rather than outside wrinkling their noses at the outrage, and that is what counts. Sure, not every single one of those 700 school children will go on to become a life-long member of the RSCDS. But the main problem in Scotland seems to be that people tend to *view* the Society as a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys who are intent on taking all the fun out of dancing with their strict rules and standards, obvious evidence to the contrary like the Glasgow schools event notwithstanding. Over here in Germany, where the general public is not thus conditioned, we have no trouble whatsoever attracting *and* keeping young adults in our SCD groups, especially those groups that do attempt to teach RSCDS-style technique and standards. (There are a few children's groups and from what I hear most of those are also going strong.) What the RSCDS needs in Scotland is not »loosening up«. It just needs a PR campaign to educate people. From that point of view the Glasgow event is a Good Thing. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Things are only impossible until they're not. -- Cpt. Jean-Luc Picard (ST:TNG)
April 2, 2006, 6:01 p.m. (Message 44952, in reply to message 44941)
Anselm wrote “Everybody can have fun kicking a rusty can around the Street...... However, playing organised football does take some practice and dedication.... And incidentally, football DOES have rules, and some rather more complicated ones than SCD at that...... no amount of »loosening up« will change that....... Apparently the RSCDS were down there in the thick of it rather than outside wrinkling their noses at the outrage, and that is what counts....... the main problem in Scotland seems to be that people tend to *view* the Society as a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys who are intent on taking all the fun out of dancing....... What the RSCDS needs in Scotland is not »loosening up«. It just needs a PR campaign to educate people. From that point of view the Glasgow event is a Good Thing." In response... I fail to see the comparison between COMPETITIVE football and Scottish Country Dancing – excepting the COMPETITIVE variety. Most dancers in my experience, are of the non-competitive variety. I repeat “Please note that I am not suggesting extinction of competitive styles”. As for the football analogy, I am certain that a rule which stated that the goalkeeper must stand in "First Position" when not defending his goal would be laughed out of play, or totally ignored. Incidentally, I WAS one of the RSCDS people in the thick of it, and my nose remains unwrinkled. Further, I do not see the RSCDS in Scotland [or anywhere else] as "a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys, who are intent on taking all the fun out of dancing". No amount of PR will eliminate that iceberg. The “Glasgow event” demonstrated my point well, and was undoubtedly an EXTREMELY good thing. Dick Daniel.
April 2, 2006, 7:04 p.m. (Message 44953, in reply to message 44952)
On 4/2/06, Dick Daniel <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Anselm wrote > > What the RSCDS needs in Scotland is not »loosening up«. It just needs a PR > campaign to educate people. From that point of view the Glasgow event is a > Good Thing." > > In response... > > Incidentally, I WAS one of the RSCDS people in the thick of it, and my nose > remains unwrinkled. Further, I do not see the RSCDS in Scotland [or > anywhere else] as "a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys, who are intent on > taking all the fun out of dancing". I agree with both parties here, but neither seems to be talking concrete actions. So, let's bring this discussion into the realm of what is actually possible and doable: 1) Has anybody done a survey why young people do not enjoy RSCDS dancing? Yes! I believe I have seen the mentions of that. What about the surveys of young people who do enjoy RSCDS? I have seen less of them. And while the negative ones gets passed around and discussed, the positive ones are not. The result is that it is much easier to find negative surveys. What to do? Find the good surveys and push them out. Via RSCDS web site if required, other ways are possible. 2) Are the events like described above great publicity? Yes! But how do people find out about them unless they were there, or members of this mailing list. Where are the pictures from the event, where are the interviews with organisers, where are the follow-up actions? And not in the members' magazines or school board meetings, because that is preaching to the converted. Where are they in public sources and/or on the web? 3) If you having troubles convincing scotish youth to dance, fine. Get the international community to participate. Germany has lots of youth dancing? Get them to tell everybody in the world why it is great. Knowing that somebody else gets excited by what is yours, can do wonders. 4) Do you know where the youth hang out? Does RSCDS check if they appear there? Let me run a small list: 1) Photograph sharing: www.flickr.com - where are the pictures of the young people dancing and enjoying themselves? The best I found is this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/scottishcountrydancing/ What to do? Upload your ball photos, especially with young people on them. If you have a digital camera, you can do it. 2) www.myspace.com - a website where more than 4 million (that's 4000000) predominantly young people hang out and talk about things they like and don't like. How many people mention RSCDS there? One: http://www.myspace.com/bloodyangel89. What to do? Next time you have a young person in your class (<20 y.o.), ask them if they have a myspace profile. Ask them if they mention RSCDS on it? Get them to be the embassadors and write about RSCDS. Anything will do: dances they liked/disliked most, preparation for teachers exams, etc. 3)Blogs, where people say what they really think? I think there might be 3. Mine is one of them at (http://alwayslearning.wordpress.com/tag/rscds/). Where are others? They are free to setup, they are very easy to start with and you can talk about anything (favourite dance, music, problems with the steps, etc) What to do? Make one yourself or convince another RSCDS dancer to make one. Free blog space is available at http://www.blogger.com, http://wordpress.com, http://www.livejournal.com/ . I will help anybody willing to really try and having troubles. 4) Wikipedia - only a community built encyclopedia that Nature magazine compared to Encyclopædia Britannica . Does it have an article on SCD/RSCDS? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSCDS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_country_dance Can it be expanded? Yes. I know Anselm contributed, but more is possible. 5) Podcasts - Ten minutes of Scottish music, dance descriptions and talks with famous RSCDS people will reach the audience that is too busy to visit a class, but will be happy to listen to things in the car or while exercising. What to do? Early January Sue Petyt talked about podcasting about RSCDS. Did anybody get excited and offered to help or contribute? No. Let Sue know that you like the idea and/or happy to contribute your voice to the segment. 6) RSCDS has people from all walks of life. And some of them would be happy to contribute their skills to make RSCDS better. Does RSCDS know who those people are and what skills they could bring to the table? No. One way or another, people do contribute, but usually in very local ways that go unnoticed by a large community. With a push by the society behind them, a much greater reach and impact could be made. What to do? Make a competition and publish the results in the magazine on the web. For example, a best drawing related to RSCDS. I have seen some amazing drawings with pencil and paper of confused couples. It is hilarious, but has only been seen by members of a particular branch and guests. And it is not enough to just ask for stuff to be sent in. Somebody should be actively looking for interesting stuff. Again, find embassadors, get behind them and push. Maybe integrate that into teaching examination. The examiners are travelling all over the world already, maybe they can look out for interesting things specifically as part of the visit. I am sure local teachers would be happy to highlight interesting materials. These are just low-hanging fruits. There are other ways and avenues, that are possible. Some of them (like organising the event described) are even being done. But the more complex/important an event is, the more chances it will fail and/or will be too late. Start with low-hanging fruits and see if that will generate enough momentum to get people behind other efforts as well. Now, who is in? Private as well as public replies are very welcome. Regards, Alex.
April 2, 2006, 8:02 p.m. (Message 44955, in reply to message 44953)
Lets start with a little. For the pictures and another report see the Glasgow Branch Website http://www.rscdsglasgow.org/index.htm and click on LATEST NEWS then follow the links for the pictures and report. As for official RSCDS action don't hold your breath. You only have to look at the HQ link for the Perth & Perthshire Branch website under UK Branches, Scotland. The information here is 18 months out of date. The listed Chairman, Linda Gaul, completed her term fully 18 months ago and was succeeded by Jane Rattray. The Treasurer is still listed as Jim Healy!!!! Perhaps Members should check their own Branch Information to see if it is current. Alasdair Graham, Dumbarton, Scotland.
April 2, 2006, 8:52 p.m. (Message 44956, in reply to message 44955)
On 4/2/06, Alasdair Graham <xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xx> wrote: > Lets start with a little. > For the pictures and another report see the Glasgow Branch Website > http://www.rscdsglasgow.org/index.htm and click on LATEST NEWS then follow > the links for the pictures and report. Blogged: http://alwayslearning.wordpress.com/2006/04/02/who-said- children-dont-like-scottish-country-dancing/ Technical comment: If the pages and links were not Flash and Frames, Google (and other people) would find them much easier. Also, if the owner of the pictures would upload even one or two of these to Flickr.com, it would be a great start. The first 100 photos per user are totally free to host. > As for official RSCDS action don't hold your breath. You only have to look > at the HQ link for the Perth & Perthshire Branch website under UK Branches, > Scotland. The information here is 18 months out of date. The listed > Chairman, Linda Gaul, completed her term fully 18 months ago and was > succeeded by Jane Rattray. The Treasurer is still listed as Jim Healy!!!! Well, maybe that is a problem that needs to be acknowledged and dealt with. I know a fancy new website is in the plans, but (even being a techie) I think it is more important to have information correct rather than flashy. Even to have a small link at the bottom of each page saying 'report problem with this page' might do wonders. Regards, Alex.
April 2, 2006, 7:56 p.m. (Message 44954, in reply to message 44952)
I fail to see the comparison between COMPETITIVE football and Scottish Country Dancing - excepting the COMPETITIVE variety. I read Anselm's comment as referring more to ability and the desire for skill than towards being competitive. The "Glasgow event" demonstrated my point well, and was undoubtedly an EXTREMELY good thing. I'm very sure it was, and I'm equally sure that we all applaud, thank and admire you, and everyone involved in all aspects of the event. Well done!! Simon Vancouver
April 3, 2006, 11:06 a.m. (Message 44958, in reply to message 44952)
Actually this is a great analogy. One of the reasons that Scottish Football is "not very good" these days is that kids nowadays dont kick cans around on the street. Often they are not allowed to. The result is our football teams are half filled (or more) with the "nearly retired" from other countries and we have the spectacle of a non league team (Gretna) winning trough to a Cup final. Scottish football is now not shown live on network TV and as a result seems to be having difficulty in retaining the commercial sponsorships that are increasingly relied on these days. In message <xxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, Dick Daniel <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> writes >Anselm wrote > >“Everybody can have fun kicking a rusty can around the Street...... >However, playing organised football does take some practice and >dedication.... >And incidentally, football DOES have rules, and some rather more >complicated ones than SCD at that...... >no amount of ›loosening up‹ will change that....... >Apparently the RSCDS were down there in the thick of it rather than >outside wrinkling their noses at the outrage, and that is what >counts....... >the main problem in Scotland seems to be that people tend to *view* the >Society as a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys who are intent on taking >all the fun out of dancing....... >What the RSCDS needs in Scotland is not ›loosening up‹. It just >needs a PR campaign to educate people. From that point of view the >Glasgow event is a Good Thing." > >In response... > >I fail to see the comparison between COMPETITIVE football and Scottish >Country Dancing – excepting the COMPETITIVE variety. Most dancers in >my experience, are of the non-competitive variety. I repeat “Please >note that I am not suggesting extinction of competitive styles”. As >for the football analogy, I am certain that a rule which stated that >the goalkeeper must stand in "First Position" when not defending his >goal would be laughed out of play, or totally ignored. > >Incidentally, I WAS one of the RSCDS people in the thick of it, and my >nose remains unwrinkled. Further, I do not see the RSCDS in Scotland >[or anywhere else] as "a stuffy assemblage of old fogeys, who are >intent on taking all the fun out of dancing". > >No amount of PR will eliminate that iceberg. > >The “Glasgow event” demonstrated my point well, and was undoubtedly >an EXTREMELY good thing. > >Dick Daniel. > > -- Bryan McAlister
April 3, 2006, 12:39 p.m. (Message 44960, in reply to message 44958)
Bryan McAlister schrieb: > Actually this is a great analogy. One of the reasons that Scottish > Football is "not very good" these days is that kids nowadays dont kick > cans around on the street. Right. And you can't really expect a fresh kid to come into their first (RSCDS-style) dance class and join the branch demonstration team the next week any more than you can expect some kid who hasn't kicked *anything* in their lives to score three goals in the World Cup finals. In order to become a first-rate professional football player you have to *start* with kicking cans around the street and then actively *want* more and do something about it. In dancing, young people come to ceilidhs and get told by many that »this is the *real*, *fun* Scottish dancing, and RSCDS is just for arthritic killjoys who make you point your toes«, so I think it's likely that even if some of them (only some) hear a private little voice in their heads asking »is this really all there is?«, peer pressure ensures that they'd rather be seen dead than donning the soft ghillies. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx And whatever you do, never, ever, play Trivial Pursuit against a reference librarian. -- Jim Frost
April 3, 2006, 1:04 p.m. (Message 44961, in reply to message 44938)
So you reckon that more rules [like the goalie standing in First position] might solve Scottish Football's problems? I know little about football, but I somehow doubt that is the answer. As I understand it, Scottish football has achieved OUTSTANDING international achievements in the past, despite all the odds against them succeeding. Conversely, perhaps you are agreeing with me that dispensing with the absolute letter of the rules, unless you want to play real COMPETITIVE football, would increase the fun element, to the overall benefit of the game. Maybe someone should form a committee and organise an international survey to find out why Scottish Football has such a bad image with youngsters, then introduce a PR exercise to sort it all out. That's what the politicians would advise. Should only take a few years and a few millions, to arrive at an indecisive conclusion and an ineffectual campaign. Or maybe it's just that Scotland is a small country with a small population from which to draw talent, and insufficient funding to encourage youngsters to develop their kicking technique, rather than just instructing them that pointing their toes is the supreme immutable priority for all levels of the game. Dick Daniel From: Bryan McAlister <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx> Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Subject: Re: Over 700 schoolchildren dance in Glasgow Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:06:33 +0100
April 3, 2006, 1:17 p.m. (Message 44962, in reply to message 44961)
Actually I was suggesting the informal FUN kickabouts in the street made a great contribution to the quality of play in the past - look at Brazil etc. which so far, in recent past more structured coaching methods have failed to replicate. In message <xxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, Dick Daniel <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> writes >So you reckon that more rules [like the goalie standing in First >position] might solve Scottish Football's problems? I know little >about football, but I somehow doubt that is the answer. As I >understand it, Scottish football has achieved OUTSTANDING international >achievements in the past, despite all the odds against them succeeding. > >Conversely, perhaps you are agreeing with me that dispensing with the >absolute letter of the rules, unless you want to play real COMPETITIVE >football, would increase the fun element, to the overall benefit of the >game. > >Maybe someone should form a committee and organise an international >survey to find out why Scottish Football has such a bad image with >youngsters, then introduce a PR exercise to sort it all out. That's >what the politicians would advise. Should only take a few years and a >few millions, to arrive at an indecisive conclusion and an ineffectual >campaign. > >Or maybe it's just that Scotland is a small country with a small >population from which to draw talent, and insufficient funding to >encourage youngsters to develop their kicking technique, rather than >just instructing them that pointing their toes is the supreme immutable >priority for all levels of the game. > >Dick Daniel > > > >From: Bryan McAlister <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx> >Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> >To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx >Subject: Re: Over 700 schoolchildren dance in Glasgow >Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:06:33 +0100 >>Actually this is a great analogy. One of the reasons that Scottish >>Football is "not very good" these days is that kids nowadays dont kick >>cans around on the street. Often they are not allowed to. The result >>is our football teams are half filled (or more) with the "nearly >>retired" from other countries and we have the spectacle of a non >>league team (Gretna) winning trough to a Cup final. >> >>Scottish football is now not shown live on network TV and as a result >>seems to be having difficulty in retaining the commercial sponsorships >>that are increasingly relied on these days. >> > > -- Bryan McAlister
April 3, 2006, 3:37 p.m. (Message 44965, in reply to message 44961)
Dick Daniel wrote: > So you reckon that more rules [like the goalie standing in First position] > might solve Scottish Football's problems? I know little about football, > but I somehow doubt that is the answer. As I understand it, Scottish > football has achieved OUTSTANDING international achievements in the past, > despite all the odds against them succeeding. > > Conversely, perhaps you are agreeing with me that dispensing with the > absolute letter of the rules, unless you want to play real COMPETITIVE > football, would increase the fun element, to the overall benefit of the > game. The analogy breaks down there because in football you have competing teams and in SCD as a rule you don't. There is no such thing as »competitive SCD« (except for some places like, I gather, Scotland -- which may contribute to the problem at hand). If you need it spelled out: Playing football for fun in the street with no off-side rule et cetera is one thing, and playing football in an organised club, taking part in a formal football league, is quite another. Similarly, dancing for fun at ceilidhs is one thing, and RSCDS-style country dancing is quite another. In both cases, many participants may delight in the sheer unbridled joy of the one (and there is definitely nothing in the least wrong with that) while others enjoy the more structured and demanding other form. If the state of Scottish football is as appalling as it seems (I wouldn't know, not being a sports buff), a solution proposing to abolish all rules in organised football to improve the general quality of the game appears to me as absurd as a solution requiring the RSCDS to »loosen up« about standards in order to make dancing more popular, which is the one often put forward when the lack of interest in RSCDS-style dancing *in Scotland* is being discussed. This operation may well succeed to a certain degree but it will probably kill the patient in the process. The other problem is that, contrary to widely-held beliefs, there are few if any »absolute rules« in SCD (the possible exception being the Golden Rule). . Even the revered Dr Milligan is on record as having said »We do not dot every i and cross every t«. I, for one, would be happy if the insistence on »rules« for everything that one encounters in places (as in, whose hand is on top in a 4 hands across, and where is the left big toe of 3rd man on bar 14 3/4 of dance such-and-such) were replaced by liberal helpings of common sense, teaching dancers to think for themselves and doing the thing that makes sense in a given situation, rather than relying on arbitrary rules for the micro-management of SCD. If this is what you mean by »loosening up«, Dick, then I'm all in favour. However I would hate to see changes that would, say, (as an extreme example) abolish pas-de-basque because it is too difficult to master and may scare people off SCD. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money. -- Samuel Johnson, after Boswell
April 3, 2006, 5:01 p.m. (Message 44967, in reply to message 44965)
I think the football analogy is very good - First we had a game that was played in a variety of places, including British public schools Then they came together at university and tried to play according to an agreed set of rules, and the boys from Rugby school didn't like the "no hands" part of it, so we had Association Football (soccer) where you couldn't use your hands, and Rugby, where you could - then Rugby became split into Rugby League (13 players) and Rugby Union (15 players) and of course the overseas versions - American Football and Australian Rules Football. Now of course the best Rugby players usually have no connection with Rugby school, and the school has nothing to do with setting the rules. There was a remark about size of population correlating with sporting prowess - Australia, population 20 million, number of gold medals at Commonwealth Games 84 United Kingdom (England + Scotland + Wales +Isle of Man + N Ireland), population 60 million Number of gold medals 36 + 11 + 3 + 1 + 0 = 51 The difference being that sport is big in Australia, whereas it isn't in the UK. The worrying thing about the children dancing in Scotland is that despite the fact these large groups of children have been dancing at festivals for years, the average age of the dancer seen at a Scottish dance in Scotland is increasing. And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that the year end school Christmas dance was the place where Scots were turned off SCD for life. It might be something to do with growing up, fitting in with the crowd, and the many more pleasurable things available to try, but I always find it sad that young competitive highland dancers rarely transform into the next generation of Scottish Country dancer. Malcolm Malcolm L Brown York
April 4, 2006, 1:16 p.m. (Message 44976, in reply to message 44965)
Anselm wrote. >The analogy breaks down there because in football you have competing teams >and >in SCD as a rule you don't. There is no such thing as »competitive SCD« >(except for some places like, I gather, Scotland -- which may contribute to >the problem at hand). > >If you need it spelled out: Playing football for fun in the street with no >off-side rule et cetera is one thing, and playing football in an organised >club, taking part in a formal football league, is quite another. Similarly, >dancing for fun at ceilidhs is one thing, and RSCDS-style country dancing >is >quite another.> I, for one, would be happy if the insistence on »rules« >for everything that one encounters in places (as in, whose hand is on top >in >a 4 hands across, and where is the left big toe of 3rd man on bar 14 3/4 of >dance such-and-such) were replaced by liberal helpings of common sense, >teaching dancers to think for themselves and doing the thing that makes >sense >in a given situation, rather than relying on arbitrary rules for the >micro-management of SCD. If this is what you mean by »loosening up«, Dick, >then I'm all in favour. However I would hate to see changes that would, >say, >(as an extreme example) abolish pas-de-basque because it is too difficult >to >master and may scare people off SCD. > >Anselm Good to have you on board Anselm. It is precisely the extreme empasis on the purely stylistic rules, to which I am opposed . That is the whole message I have been trying to convey. My pas-de-basque is far from perfect but I like to see ladies [in particular] perform the step well and I generally try to get it right. On reflection, the root cause of the problem may well be that applicants to become RSCDS Teachers are required to be so precise in all aspects of steps and posture [otherwise they are failed] that they are led to believe this is essential fodder for novice dancers. [as I noticed from an American contributor's comments] This is undoubtedly an area where RSCDS falls short. I have met many people in Ceilidh dancing circles who say they have tried SCD with RSCDS classes, but were put off by the strict application of rules of posture, step and etiquette. I do not consider scrapping all is a sensible route to take, but perhaps we should have a new catchphrase in RSCDS. "Horses for courses" Incidentally, I suspect you don't need it spelled out, but Scottish Ceilidh is a generic term covering all forms of entertainment with a group of Scottish people [not necessarily in Scotland]. Ceilidhs can include no dancing whatsoever, with people presenting their party-piece songs, poems, readings, playing instruments etc. Ceilidhs can be all couples dances, including a smattering of old-tyme and non-Scottish dances. Ceilidhs may be half set dances and half couples dances. Ceilidhs may include Highland dancing and/or Step dancing. Ceilidhs may be held in a tiny farmhouse kitchen or a massive public hall. Ceilidhs may be a mixture of all or any of the above. I have produced a "Noddy" website in an attempt to advertise that Ceilidh does not deserve its rough-house image, and to provide an easy introduction to Ceilidh/SCD. for total novices. http://ceilidhbasics.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk Feel free to have a look if you are so inclined. It's not earth-shattering stuff, merely a small attempt to transmit the message about SCD/Ceilidh. Dick Daniel
April 4, 2006, 1:48 p.m. (Message 44977, in reply to message 44976)
Dick Daniel wrote: > [...] and I > generally try to get it right. I think this is all that can reasonably be required of a dancer. It is good if people strive for perfection but if we insist on perfection then the dance floors will be empty indeed. > On reflection, the root cause of the problem may well be that applicants to > become RSCDS Teachers are required to be so precise in all aspects of steps > and posture [otherwise they are failed] that they are led to believe this > is essential fodder for novice dancers. I believe that a teacher should be able to serve as an example. This is not to say that teachers must be perfect dancers as far as posture and steps are concerned, only that they should at least try to be reasonably good -- because the class will emulate the teacher. There are lots of reasonable exemptions e.g., for teachers who have been getting on in years (and whose experience makes up for any loss in agility), but if a young(ish) teacher is visibly sloppy and not making an effort, then how can anyone expect his class to do so? One of the big caveats of becoming a teacher is that people will (possibly subconsciously) watch your dancing even when you're not actively teaching your class. Whatever you do carries weight merely because it is a well-known fact that you are an SCD teacher, so what you do must be correct. Concerning »essential fodder for novice dancers«: It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to confront novice dancers with all the fine points of technique etc. at the very beginning, but neither should these be completely disregarded. In my class I tend to get beginners to get the geometry right first and the fine points of steps etc. later, as I would much rather they be able to join in at least the easier dances. I also must admit that I try to get people to join workshops for proper training about steps etc.; there is only so much you can do in a weekly general class if you want to keep the session moving and »fun«. >From the point of view of the Society, I think it is good to insist that there *are* certain standards. However, as far as I know, »standards everywhere, all the time« is not current RSCDS policy, anyway, so claiming the contrary and dissing the Society for it would be a straw-man argument. > Incidentally, I suspect you don't need it spelled out, but Scottish Ceilidh > is a generic term covering all forms of entertainment with a group of > Scottish people [not necessarily in Scotland]. Ceilidhs can include no > dancing whatsoever, with people presenting their party-piece songs, poems, > readings, playing instruments etc. Yep. I was using »ceilidh« in the urban sense (dance event) rather than the rural sense (mixed entertainment). Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx You see things, and you say `Why?' But I dream things that never were, and say `Why not?' -- G. B. Shaw
April 4, 2006, 3:22 p.m. (Message 44978, in reply to message 44977)
Anselm wrote... >One of the big caveats of becoming a teacher is that people will (possibly >subconsciously) watch your dancing even when you're not actively teaching >your class. Whatever you do carries weight merely because it is a >well-known >fact that you are an SCD teacher, so what you do must be correct. Accepted - Though I'm sure you are aware I am not a teacher, I speak as "people". > >Concerning »essential fodder for novice dancers«: It doesn't make a whole >lot >of sense to confront novice dancers with all the fine points of technique >etc. at the very beginning, but neither should these be completely >disregarded.> Agreed. >From the point of view of the Society, I think it is good to insist that >there >*are* certain standards. However, as far as I know, »standards everywhere, >all the time« is not current RSCDS policy, anyway........ I think part of the problem is that newcomers to RSCDS classes often seem to get the impression that tequniqu is all, and don't hang around long enough to discover otherwise. On the other hand, I know of people who have not returned to ceilidh classes because they aren't structured. We appear to have more in common than things to take up cudgels about. I'm pleasantly surprised. Dick Daniel
April 5, 2006, 1:10 a.m. (Message 44983, in reply to message 44976)
I do have the feeling that Dick ls preaching to the (mostly) converted. I make refernce to Bill Clement's Speech at Summer School on the occasion of the 75th Anniversary in 1998!! It is all in there and was put to us in a message from Jim Healy which, no doubt, may be conjured up from the Archives?
April 7, 2006, 11:16 p.m. (Message 44989, in reply to message 44983)
I have no doubt there are many "converted " people in RSCDS. The problem from my viewpoint is that no-one [in Scotland] is doing anything about that monstrous iceberg, other than making mouth-music. Meantime, we are on "Full Speed Ahead". Even when action is taken to "turn the wheel a wee" - rather than just talk at length and in depth about whether the wheel needs turning - a ship this big takes a long time to respond. The sooner we change course, the less the wheel will need to be yanked to avoid the collision. Elementary physics. The action needed is to DEMONSTRATE forcibly to all comers, that RSCDS dancers are NOT FIXATED on "proper" footwork and decorum. That is definitely not the signal being generally transmitted at this point in time, in Scotland, as far as I and many non-RSCDS dancers/aspiring dancers I know and/or have met, are concerned. I think it may also be the main reason that many non-RSCDS dancing clubs in Scotland go no further than affilliating with RSCDS and many don't even go that far. People who come to Scottish RSCDS classes or public events [especially young people] have to be shown EXTREME levels of tolerance. Call it ACTIVE Positive Discrimination to use current buzz words. I don't think we are trying hard enough. We think that if we can honestly say we had a good time at an event, that makes it self-evident that nothing is basically wrong with the RSCDS way, and we are right. Unfortunately, the real young folk don't agree, and vote with their feet. If you have never been to the Riverside Club in Glasgow [or similar venue], you can never begin to understand why their form of dancing is so generally attractive to young people, and the RSCDS version is generally NOT. ......................... NB ALL age groups are made very welcome there and ALL age groups dance together. I have never seen, or heard of, any brawling. It's all good simple fun dancing to good Scottish music - but with much more vigour than is normal at RSCDS events. I am not suggesting Scottish RSCDS adopt Riverside Club format, only that we should move a bit towards that format - particularly when dealing with young people. Dick Daniel
April 3, 2006, 5:28 p.m. (Message 44968, in reply to message 44961)
Hi Dick, > So you reckon that more rules [like the goalie standing in First position] > might solve Scottish Football's problems? I know little about football, but > I somehow doubt that is the answer. As I understand it, Scottish football > has achieved OUTSTANDING international achievements in the past, despite all > the odds against them succeeding. No-one's advocating more rules. Just don't be too quick to completely throw out the technique which makes our dancing what it is. > Conversely, perhaps you are agreeing with me that dispensing with the > absolute letter of the rules, unless you want to play real COMPETITIVE > football, would increase the fun element, to the overall benefit of the > game. It depends who you are. For beginners, of course you shouldn't concentrate on niceities until the basics are there. However, please don't ask me to turn my toes in and start doing a 2-beat pas-de-basque just because the way I dance has been honed over years of practice and won't be achieved by your typical beginner on their first class. I ENJOY the fact that there is an ideal to strive for, and I like to get as close as possible most of the time. But that doesn't mean I expect other dancers in my set to do the same (except when performing, of course). But a more important, more general point: YOU ARE PART OF THE RSCDS. Your achievements in Glasgow are a shining example of what _the_RSCDS_ can offer and achieve. Remember, the RSCDS is a collection of volunteers, each with their own agenda, with a few organising committees of volunteers doing their best as they see it. There is no official "accuracy police force" which lurks at social events and will strike you off forever for being fractionally out of place on bar 6.239 of the tournee (though there are a *few* sad individuals who unfortunately seem to see that as their role), and this runs counter to the attitude of the members of the executive committees who I know. Have you danced with Stewart? I keep seeing people complaining that "the RSCDS" is hide-bound and a stickler for rules being obeyed all the time. In my experience, in attending events run by RSCDS branches this is not generally the case - as your example shows. Sure, there are some teachers who do still teach this way. That doesn't mean "the RSCDS" in general (whoever that is) thinks this way. Yet for some reason, every time someone is inappropriately strict, it is taken as because they are RSCDS members. Every time someone is appropriately lax, it is taken as despite being RSCDS members - even if that is the more common occurrence. And this is the marketing battle we need to fight - to convince everyone that "the RSCDS is strict and stuffy" is an out-of-date image, and to convince members (an in particular teachers) that behaviours that give this impression are now inappropriate. On the other hand, we do need to recognise that the structure which the RSCDS style provides is a major asset. It's certainly the reason dancing is _my_ main hobby. I enjoy dancing well, and I enjoy the mental and physical challenges that offers. If I was just ceilidh dancing, it wouldn't be such an obsession - there's just not enough to it for me. As has been said before, no-one complains about David Beckham being a good footballer. So why do so many people complain about people who want to dance well? Cheers, Ian Brockbank Edinburgh, Scotland xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx http://www.scottishdance.net/
April 4, 2006, 3:42 p.m. (Message 44979, in reply to message 44968)
Ian Brockbank wrote.... > >It depends who you are. For beginners, of course you shouldn't concentrate >on niceities until the basics are there. I ENJOY the fact that there is an >ideal to strive for, and I like to get as close as possible most of the >time. But that doesn't mean I expect other dancers in my set to do the >same >(except when performing, of course). Great. > There is no official "accuracy police force" which >lurks at social events and will strike you off forever for being >fractionally out of place on bar 6.239 of the tournee (though there are a >*few* sad individuals who unfortunately seem to see that as their role), >and >this runs counter to the attitude of the members of the executive >committees >who I know. Have you danced with Stewart? Agreed, fortunately the sad individuals are very much in the minority and easily dismissed. Have not danced with Stewart knowingly... Most of my activity is in the West of Scotland. > Sure, there are some teachers who do still teach this >way. That doesn't mean "the RSCDS" in general (whoever that is) thinks >this >way. Yet for some reason, every time someone is inappropriately strict, it >is taken as because they are RSCDS members. Every time someone is >appropriately lax, it is taken as despite being RSCDS members - even if >that >is the more common occurrence. I'm becoming convinced that the main problem may stem from teaching too tight too soon. > >And this is the marketing battle we need to fight - to convince everyone >that "the RSCDS is strict and stuffy" is an out-of-date image, and to >convince members (an in particular teachers) that behaviours that give this >impression are now inappropriate. I've had unsolicited feedback from several indivicuals who attended a class, formed the instant "strict and stuffy" conclusion, and didn't hang around long enough to find out otherwise. > >On the other hand, we do need to recognise that the structure which the >RSCDS style provides is a major asset. It's certainly the reason dancing >is >_my_ main hobby. I enjoy dancing well, and I enjoy the mental and physical >challenges that offers. If I was just ceilidh dancing, it wouldn't be such >an obsession - there's just not enough to it for me. Couldn't agree more. The RSCDS must survive at all costs, in the interests of SCD. We mustn't lose sight of the fact however that Ceilidh is a generic term covering many different formats and venue types. Even RSCDS version of SCD is a form of Ceilidh where only set dances are performed. Check out my Noddy web site http://ceilidhbasics.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ for an insight into my attempts to bring SCD/Ceilidh to the notice of the general public. > >As has been said before, no-one complains about David Beckham being a good >footballer. So why do so many people complain about people who want to >dance well? > I have never heard anyone criticise another for dancing well - only for being expected to dance perfectly. >Cheers, > Dick Daniel.
April 3, 2006, 5:33 p.m. (Message 44969, in reply to message 44938)
Malcolm wrote: > The worrying thing about the children dancing in Scotland is > that despite the fact > these large groups of children have been dancing at festivals > for years, the average > age of the dancer seen at a Scottish dance in Scotland is > increasing. > > It might be something to do with growing up, fitting in with > the crowd, and the many > more pleasurable things available to try, but I always find > it sad that young > competitive highland dancers rarely transform into the next > generation of Scottish > Country dancer. Why do we concentrate efforts on getting children dancing? They're far too fickle. It's the adults we need to hook. If we can get the students and newly free parents (whose children are now old enough they can start to have a life again) they're much more likely to keep it up long-term. > And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that the > year end school Christmas > dance was the place where Scots were turned off SCD for life. In my experience, (both personal and from talking to other people who grew up in Scotland) no-one liked the lessons, but everyone enjoys doing it once they start going to real ceilidhs, and are glad then that they had the lessons. Cheers, Ian Brockbank Edinburgh, Scotland xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx http://www.scottishdance.net/
April 3, 2006, 6:50 p.m. (Message 44970, in reply to message 44938)
As an 18-year-old dancer from the Chicago area, I just wanted to contribute to the discussion on the lack of young people in the RSCDS and the Scottish Country Dance community. A lot of emphasis has been placed on the RSCDS' emphasis on proper dance technique, but I haven't found that resistance to learning proper technique is what causes many of my peers to be less interested in Scottish dance than other dance forms. Generally, I've found that younger people are eager to learn to dance "correctly," often more so than some older beginners are. Rather, I've found that there is a perception among younger dancers that Scottish dancing is less social than other types of set dancing, such as English Country Dance or New England Contra dance. I find Scottish dancing to be a very social activity, and enjoy it in large part because of the social opportunities it offers (especially communication within your set), although I also enjoy the challenge of "doing it correctly." I think, though, that if the RSCDS is interested in attracting younger dancers, the solution is not to lower the standards of the dance, but to emphasize other aspects of it, such as its social aspect, which younger people find appealing. Hannah Chicago, IL and Ithaca, NY > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:28:13 +0100 > From: "Ian Brockbank" <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> > Subject: RE: Over 700 schoolchildren dance in Glasgow > To: "'SCD news and discussion'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> > Message-ID: <009301c65733$3a1d86c0$xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx> > Keywords: Mailing list > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Hi Dick, > > > So you reckon that more rules [like the goalie standing in First > position] > > might solve Scottish Football's problems? I know little about football, > but > > I somehow doubt that is the answer. As I understand it, Scottish > football > > has achieved OUTSTANDING international achievements in the past, despite > all > > the odds against them succeeding. > > No-one's advocating more rules. Just don't be too quick to completely > throw > out the technique which makes our dancing what it is. > > > Conversely, perhaps you are agreeing with me that dispensing with the > > absolute letter of the rules, unless you want to play real COMPETITIVE > > football, would increase the fun element, to the overall benefit of the > > game. > > It depends who you are. For beginners, of course you shouldn't > concentrate > on niceities until the basics are there. However, please don't ask me to > turn my toes in and start doing a 2-beat pas-de-basque just because the > way > I dance has been honed over years of practice and won't be achieved by > your > typical beginner on their first class. I ENJOY the fact that there is an > ideal to strive for, and I like to get as close as possible most of the > time. But that doesn't mean I expect other dancers in my set to do the > same > (except when performing, of course). > > But a more important, more general point: YOU ARE PART OF THE > RSCDS. Your > achievements in Glasgow are a shining example of what _the_RSCDS_ can > offer > and achieve. Remember, the RSCDS is a collection of volunteers, each with > their own agenda, with a few organising committees of volunteers doing > their > best as they see it. There is no official "accuracy police force" which > lurks at social events and will strike you off forever for being > fractionally out of place on bar 6.239 of the tournee (though there are a > *few* sad individuals who unfortunately seem to see that as their role), > and > this runs counter to the attitude of the members of the executive > committees > who I know. Have you danced with Stewart? > > I keep seeing people complaining that "the RSCDS" is hide-bound and a > stickler for rules being obeyed all the time. In my experience, in > attending events run by RSCDS branches this is not generally the case - as > your example shows. Sure, there are some teachers who do still teach this > way. That doesn't mean "the RSCDS" in general (whoever that is) thinks > this > way. Yet for some reason, every time someone is inappropriately strict, > it > is taken as because they are RSCDS members. Every time someone is > appropriately lax, it is taken as despite being RSCDS members - even if > that > is the more common occurrence. > > And this is the marketing battle we need to fight - to convince everyone > that "the RSCDS is strict and stuffy" is an out-of-date image, and to > convince members (an in particular teachers) that behaviours that give > this > impression are now inappropriate. > > On the other hand, we do need to recognise that the structure which the > RSCDS style provides is a major asset. It's certainly the reason dancing > is > _my_ main hobby. I enjoy dancing well, and I enjoy the mental and > physical > challenges that offers. If I was just ceilidh dancing, it wouldn't be > such > an obsession - there's just not enough to it for me. > > As has been said before, no-one complains about David Beckham being a good > footballer. So why do so many people complain about people who want to > dance well? > > Cheers, > > Ian Brockbank > Edinburgh, Scotland > xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx > http://www.scottishdance.net/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey > > End of Strathspey Digest, Vol 17, Issue 5 > ***************************************** > -- Hannah Newfield-Plunkett "If you can talk, you can sing. If you can walk, you can dance." -African proverb
April 3, 2006, 7:04 p.m. (Message 44971, in reply to message 44970)
On 4/3/06, Hannah Newfield-Plunkett <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote: > I think, though, that if the RSCDS is interested in attracting > younger dancers, the solution is not to lower the standards of the dance, > but to emphasize other aspects of it, such as its social aspect, which > younger people find appealing. I second that. We just had a young lady start at New York branch. She moved from another USA city to go to the college here and after a month of trying to establish new connections decided to try again SCD. 2 weeks after she showed up at the branch, she got invited to some big parties and is now being begged to go to the long weekend dancing event (Pauling) (those who are coming, watch out for her keily (sp) number). She said to us (happily) that suddenly her problem is _finding_ the free time to do all the exciting things now on her plate. Regards, Alex
April 3, 2006, 11:21 p.m. (Message 44975, in reply to message 44971)
I agree totally with both Hannah and Alex about the social aspect of SCD being very important. I had 2 of my group, who had only taken up dancing about 3/4 years ago and had retired down to the south of France, told me that dancing had been their entree into a social life with both ex-pats and locals and were very grateful for it. It doesn't matter what age you are, SCD is very social and gives you a great social life enabling you to meet and become friends with many you would never have met otherwise. It certainly gave me a great point of contact when I moved to the Netherlands over 20 years ago, not knowing anyone and unable to speak Dutch. Margaret
April 3, 2006, 7:28 p.m. (Message 44972, in reply to message 44938)
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, mlamontbrown wrote: > I always find it sad that young competitive highland dancers rarely > transform into the next generation of Scottish Country dancer. I'd be surprised if they did. If they can't compete at the level they used to, SCD is going to seem like a big step down that just reminds them how far the have retreated. I'd expect them to teach highland or take up something completely different.
April 4, 2006, 7:58 p.m. (Message 44981, in reply to message 44972)
One of the best Scottish Country Dancers I know was a former competitive Highland Dancer in her youth. In fact, I've known several so it does happen, admittedly it is rare. For some young folk, Highland Dance is a competitive sport rather than an art. The same is true for Irish solo dance. Likewise, how often does one see a former Irish solo dancer dancing Irish Ceilli Dance? However, for some, the joy of dance carries over into SCD. Tom Mungall Baton Rouge, La, USA
April 4, 2006, 8:24 p.m. (Message 44982, in reply to message 44981)
On 4/4/06, Thomas G. Mungall, III <xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote: > One of the best Scottish Country Dancers I know was a former competitive > Highland Dancer in her youth. In fact, I've known several so it does happen, > admittedly it is rare. While Highland dancing does have some overlap with SCD, it is very different in feel and character. The overlap includes, to some degree, the music as well as a ballet influence. But for the most part, Highland is all about the footwork and essentially does not have "figures" as we understand them. Highland is also a competitive solo dance with very little interaction (with only one or two exceptions) with other dancers. So while the footwork will be nearly trivial for a former highland dancer, the figures won't be. And the social aspects of SCD may or may not appeal to a highland dancer as it is more of a solo competitive sport (ala gymnastics.) In fact, we have a former gymnist as a beginner in our class, and she is doing extremely well as a beginner. And two of the best students in our last beginner class were former college (American) football players. People with a background in dance or athletics will probably learn SCD more quickly than your "average" person but if they aren't interested in the social and interactive aspects, I don't think they'll continue. Keith Graham xxx@xxxx.xxx
April 7, 2006, 10:31 p.m. (Message 44988, in reply to message 44982)
On 4/4/06, Thomas G. Mungall, III <xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote: > One of the best Scottish Country Dancers I know was a former competitive > Highland Dancer in her youth. In fact, I've known several so it does happen, > admittedly it is rare. Another comment from one of our converted Highland dancers last night: "Many highland dancers in the US don't know anything about SCD. When they go to a games to compete, they go directly to the competition, warm up, compete, change costumes, compete again, collect medals, and go home. I had no idea what else happened at the games." Unless there's some overlap between the highland dance community and the country dance community in a particuliar locale, it is possible they have no idea SCD even exists. (In Atlanta, there's no overlap between the two. In parts of North Carolina, there's considerable overlap.) So perhaps there is a recruiting opportunity here for Highland Dancers (both younger and older) and perhaps for their parents as well. An article in a Highland Dance magazine? A demo on the Highland Platform during a break to get their attention? Keith Graham Atlanta, GA, USA xxx@xxxx.xxx
April 3, 2006, 7:36 p.m. (Message 44973, in reply to message 44938)
Ian wrote: "And this is the marketing battle we need to fight - to convince everyone that "the RSCDS is strict and stuffy" is an out-of-date image, and to convince members (an in particular teachers) that behaviours that give this impression are now inappropriate." The leads me to reflect on the impression that is given to new teachers (and others) at the teaching examinations. For those of us who dance in North America and go to Summer School in Canada, the examiners serve in many ways as Ambassadors of the Society. I have met a number of the "Ambassadors"over the years, and what I've seen suggests that mostly they do reflect the "new" RSCDS. That is, they are looking for potential to be good, enthusiastic teachers, and are not overly "strict" about pointy toes, turn-out, third positions, etc. And in general I believe the examiners do a superb job, with little recognition or reward. But - sadly - one still sees cases where promising teacher candidates are failed, and some get badly alienated. To say the least, this is unhelpful in terms of projecting a more 'user-friendly' image. Do others have similar experiences, or have we just been unlucky in this part of the world? Chris, New York.
April 3, 2006, 8:24 p.m. (Message 44974, in reply to message 44938)
I think I must agree with you, and I am sure that the 100+ dancers that attended the RSCDS Spring Fling in Newcastle-upon-Tyne on Saturday evening would agree too. Especially as at least 70% were under 35 years with the majority of those in their teens and twenties. My only regret was being on the wrong side of the music all evening when I could have been dancing with my own age group for a change. Some of those who attended the whole weekend will be able to testify that even I was enthused to attend a full morning of dance classes for the first time in almost a decade! So they must be doing something right. And, of course, just because the attendees are being taught to dance 'properly' does not mean that they can not add their own extra little flourishes to the dancing. As Malcolm Brown and Deb Lees can no doubt testify :-) Kind regards, Phill Jones (who, as I am sure several more are too, is still recovering from very little sleep this weekend...)