March 6, 2006, 2:44 a.m. (Message 44502)
In response to Susi Mayr question about the difference between briefing a dance and recapping a dance: Briefing a dance would be the emcee giving instructions as you would find them in a dance book: "On bars 1 - 8, first and second couples dance rights and lefts. On bars 9 -16, first couple dances down the middle and up to second place, with second couple stepping up on bars 11 and 12." Recapping a dance would just give little jogs to the memory: "Rights and lefts followed by down the middle and up". DOUG SCHNEIDER Highland Mist Scottish Country Dancers St. Louis Missouri/Illinois USA
March 6, 2006, 11:07 a.m. (Message 44508, in reply to message 44502)
Thanks for the explanation. It makes me wonder, however, why you feel the need to have both breifing and recap. I would consider a recap sufficient at a social event/ball, especially if the programme is published in advance of the event itself. As Jim Healy says, why waste valuable dancing time? Susi >-- Original Message -- >From: xxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx >Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 20:44:24 EST >To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx >Subject: Difference Between Briefing a dance and Recapping a Dance >Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> > > >In response to Susi Mayr question about the difference between briefing a > >dance and recapping a dance: Briefing a dance would be the emcee giving
March 7, 2006, 5:49 p.m. (Message 44526, in reply to message 44508)
>The answer is: Because presumably not everyone is local thus hasn't had the luxury of practicing those dances exclusively for weeks ahead of time. If Branches want non-locals to attend events, they must take them into consideration. If they don't want to 'waste valuable time' briefing or walking dances for the benefit of non-locals, then they shouldn't promote the event via flyers mailed to other branches, on their websites, handouts on tables at other balls, etc. You can't have it both ways: You either earn your Branch some income off out-of-towners--in which case you must consider them--or you don't. Margaret Sarna Michigan Thanks for the explanation. It makes me wonder, however, why you feel the
March 7, 2006, 6:26 p.m. (Message 44528, in reply to message 44526)
Here in Sussex, there is a dance happening somewhere almost every Saturday. We can't possibly practise in class every dance on every programme even once (despite quite a lot of overlap between programmes) and someone wanting to go to one of those may well be unable to attend the particular class when it's practised. So I don't think it's fair to expect that people going to events will be fully confident of every dance. We've discussed the difficulty for visitors of getting partners (and a place in a set) for each dance. If you have to check Pilling or a printed briefing in the gap between dances there's even less chance of getting in. If you know there's going to be a briefing you can have more confidence in asking someone. Andrew Buxton Brighton, UK Don & Margaret Sarna <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: >The answer is: Because presumably not everyone is local thus hasn't had the luxury of practicing those dances exclusively for weeks ahead of time. If Branches want non-locals to attend events, they must take them into consideration. --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.
March 8, 2006, 11:17 a.m. (Message 44561, in reply to message 44528)
Andrew Buxton wrote: > Here in Sussex, there is a dance happening somewhere almost > every Saturday. We can't possibly practise in class every > dance on every programme even once (despite quite a lot of > overlap between programmes) and someone wanting to go to one > of those may well be unable to attend the particular class > when it's practised. So I don't think it's fair to expect > that people going to events will be fully confident of every dance. > > We've discussed the difficulty for visitors of getting > partners (and a place in a set) for each dance. If you have > to check Pilling or a printed briefing in the gap between > dances there's even less chance of getting in. If you know > there's going to be a briefing you can have more confidence > in asking someone. That's an argument for a recap. It's not an argument for reading out the full text of the instructions. If they can't get it from a brief recap, they won't get it from the full text. I don't know if we're arguing different things here. The original posting had the instructions given twice before the dance started, and the subsequent explanation implied the first set of instructions was a full teach of the dance. To me that's overkill. It's too much to take in all at once, and it won't stop me going wrong. A quick recap should be enough for people to go "oh yes". If they need more then I really doubt that any amount of talking will do, and they'll have to rely on the rest of the set. If instructions can be sent out in advance, that would allow people to do some swotting (if the information goes in that way for them). Of course there may be one or two more complicated or less well known dances on the programme which do merit a bit more. But these should be the exception. (If they're the rule, then the group needs to rethink its programmes...) Ian Brockbank Edinburgh, Scotland xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx http://www.scottishdance.net/
March 8, 2006, 12:18 p.m. (Message 44563, in reply to message 44561)
Ian Brockbank wrote: > I don't know if we're arguing different things here. The original > posting had the instructions given twice before the dance started, > and the subsequent explanation implied the first set of instructions > was a full teach of the dance. To me that's overkill. It's too > much to take in all at once, and it won't stop me going wrong. I also think this is strange. IMHO, the full written instructions for a dance should never be read aloud -- not in class and definitely not in a social situation. They're much too tedious for that! Their place is on the teacher's desk when he or she prepares their lesson, and their purpose is to communicate to the teacher how the dance is meant to go, so they can figure out how to explain it to the class -- often preferably by way of demonstration rather than reading out chapter and verse, and not necessarily from the beginning of the dance straight through to the end. If you're a computer person, think of full dance descriptions as assembly code. They are necessary to communicate to others exactly what is going on, but they are not usually what one wants to think »in« during the creative process. When I make up a dance, I usually think in terms of movements of imaginary people in my head (or squares and circles on a piece of paper), like »the dancing couple goes down the middle and up and the 2s move up«. Only when I have arrived at something that appears workable as a dance I try to translate that to formal SCD-speak, as in »9-16: 1st couple lead down the middle and up (2nd couple move up on 11-12)«. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx In the arithmetic of love, one plus one equals everything, and two minus one equals nothing. -- Ninon de L'Enclos
March 7, 2006, 6:21 p.m. (Message 44527, in reply to message 44502)
There are 6+ dance parties all within driving distance in the space of about 4 months. 16 dances per party, that's 96 dances to be learned by heart. Not possible. Perhaps there are some repeats but not many. This is why we need briefings and recaps. Sylvia Miskoe, Concord NH USA
March 7, 2006, 6:56 p.m. (Message 44529, in reply to message 44527)
>Thankyouthankyouthankyou. Our sentiments exactly. Margaret There are 6+ dance parties all within driving distance in the space of about 4 months. 16 dances per party, that's 96 dances to be learned by heart. Not possible. Perhaps there are some repeats but not many. This is why we need briefings and recaps.
March 7, 2006, 7:17 p.m. (Message 44531, in reply to message 44527)
While I have no objection to a brief re-cap, I really cannot see the justification for anything more. Presumably it is possible to get hold of the programme, and the instructions, before going to the dance - what is wrong in putting in a little homework, or even learning the dances while travelling to the dance? How many teachers and MCs have given in to a request to walk a dance, and thought "that was a complete waste of time" as people still go wrong? (give right hand instead of left, cast up instead of down, etc.) Yes the out-of-towners need to be looked after, but if that's because there are a lot of home-grown dances on the programme then perhaps that is the fault of the programme compiler. Making everyone stand through a detailed description of a dance they already know is as bad as making people dance an unknown dance without any help. Malcolm Malcolm L Brown York > -----Original Message----- > From: strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx > [mailto:strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx] On Behalf Of
March 9, 2006, 3:13 a.m. (Message 44595, in reply to message 44527)
>Thankyouthankyouthankyou. Our sentiments exactly. Margaret Sarna Michigan There are 6+ dance parties all within driving distance in the space of about 4 months. 16 dances per party, that's 96 dances to be learned by heart. Not possible. Perhaps there are some repeats but not many. This is why we need briefings and recaps.
March 9, 2006, 10:21 a.m. (Message 44599, in reply to message 44595)
And if we are to bring in much younger people, who presumably work during the week and therefore do not have the time or the inclination to memorize said dances, then briefing and recaps are necessary too. Here a lot of dances are on Fridays and I certainly can not be bothered going to dances where I have to think after a week which start at 8 and goes on until sometimes 6 or 7 o'clock every day. Pia
March 7, 2006, 9:44 p.m. (Message 44537, in reply to message 44502)
I agree with Malcom that a succint re-cap is fine (I'm not arguing in favour of no recaps at all - at the moment). A more detailed briefing would be OK if a dance is new, perhaps written for a special occasion, and is being taught to everyone in the room for the first time (this happened with Napier's Index at the Sydney Branch 50th Anniversary Ball a few years ago). Or perhaps for a very "local" dance when the organising Branch or group is aware of a large number of out-of-towners wanting to join in. I would certainly want to know the programme and ideally have instructions or source references for any unusual or local dances in advance. I would also be prepared to put some effort into learning some, though not necessarily all, of the dances unknown to me, and also to sit out anything I didn't know or didn't feel confident about. However, I fail to see why one would need both a briefing and a recap of the same dance, one more or less immediately after the other, all the way through an evening's programme. Perhaps this is a reflection of an underlying cultural /educational difference between the UK/Europe and North America? Susi Susi Mayr Vienna, Austria xxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx >-- Original Message -- >From: "mlamontbrown" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> >To: "'SCD news and discussion'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> >Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 18:17:03 -0000 >Subject: RE: Difference Between Briefing a dance and Recapping a Dance >Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> > > >While I have no objection to a brief re-cap, I really cannot see the justification >for anything more. Presumably it is possible to get hold of the programme, >and the >instructions, before going to the dance - what is wrong in putting in a little >homework, or even learning the dances while travelling to the dance? > >How many teachers and MCs have given in to a request to walk a dance, and >thought >"that was a complete waste of time" as people still go wrong? (give right >hand >instead of left, cast up instead of down, etc.) > >Yes the out-of-towners need to be looked after, but if that's because there >are a lot >of home-grown dances on the programme then perhaps that is the fault of the >programme >compiler. >Making everyone stand through a detailed description of a dance they already >know is >as bad as making people dance an unknown dance without any help. > >Malcolm > >Malcolm L Brown >York >> -----Original Message----- >> From: strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx >> [mailto:strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx] >On Behalf >Of >> xxxxxxx@xxx.xxx >> Sent: 07 March 2006 17:22 >> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx >> Subject: Re: Difference Between Briefing a dance and Recapping a Dance >> >> There are 6+ dance parties all within driving distance in the space of > about >> 4 months. 16 dances per party, that's 96 dances to be learned by heart. > Not >> possible. Perhaps there are some repeats but not many. This is why we
March 7, 2006, 10:36 p.m. (Message 44538, in reply to message 44537)
Summer dancing in Alva (near Stirling, Scotland) is held for 12 weeks during each summer with a different programme each week and 20 dances on the programme. There are no recaps. Similarly the twice monthly Castle Club Dances in Stirling during the winter months have no recaps. In both cases a booklet is issued in advance containing the names of the dances, and source for each, for every evening's dancing. These venues are generally full (nine sets or more in the smaller winter venue) and the dancers attending are able to complete the dances without any problem. What you find is the more confident dancers are usually in the top sets with the less confident towards the bottom of the rows. At these venues dancers form up immediately after the preceding dance. At dances in the Helensburgh, Glasgow and Ayr Branch areas a brief recap is given for each dance. Dancers do not form sets before the dance is called at these events, as a general rule. However, again the more confident dancers form up nearer the top of the rows and therefore the bands will see the same people most of the time. I have noticed one or two sets which prefer to dance within their own group, one set comprises 'birlers' and another a 'self help' group who manage better when dancing together. The vast majority dance with different partners each dance. There is a saying here "he who pays the piper calls the tune" and if bands are accepting money to play at venues where they do not like the customs then perhaps they should refuse the bookings. Alasdair Graham Dumbarton, Scotland. For those who indulge in pedantic corrections see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedantic
March 7, 2006, 11:11 p.m. (Message 44539, in reply to message 44502)
So, I am a tourist with 15 years' dance experience. I arrive in a town, ask at the desk where I can find dancing, am told of a dance and rush off after dinner. It won't be a very good experience if there is no briefing because I have been expected to look at the program in advance, or purchase a crib book in advance. And I will be a tourist hunting for some dancing in June. I also remember an evening in Hopetoun House, one of my first experiences of a Scottish evening (but I had lots of experience dancing). I was 4th couple for Kingussie Flower. I had a nodding acquaintance with the dance and I felt that as 4th woman, with an experienced partner, I would be ok. I remember everyone in the set reading their cribs, almost continuously, and not one couple was able to complete the dance without a mistake. Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
March 7, 2006, 11:22 p.m. (Message 44541, in reply to message 44502)
Malcolm Brown wrote: > While I have no objection to a brief re-cap, I really cannot see the > justification for anything more. Presumably it is possible to get hold of > the programme, and the instructions, before going to the dance - what is > wrong in putting in a little homework, or even learning the dances while > travelling to the dance? I'm absolutely on Malcolm's side here. I'd also say that if the dances on a program require extensive explanations and walk-throughs then perhaps they should not have been on the program to start with. The other thing is that for a re-cap to be worth the time it needs to be helpful. I have had occasion to listen to many re-caps that were a complete and utter waste of breath simply because they left everyone in more of a muddle than before. If it is all right to require dancers to do their homework in advance, this must apply even more so to those who are supposed to give the re-caps -- yet many re-cappers either appear to be seeing the dance description in question for the first time in their lives when they're up on the stage to give the re-cap, or else seem to harbour the delusion that the full original dance description from the book, read out verbatim, forms a suitable re-cap for that dance (to name but two phenomena commonly encountered). On a different tack: I may have said this before, but the SCD group in Münster (in Westphalia) operates an interesting system at their annual ball: Obviously one cannot ask whether walk-throughs are desired on a dance-by-dance basis, as there will be people who will absolutely insist on walking through the »Linton Ploughman«. So at the entrance everyone is given a number of little sticky dots (like 3), which they can then put beside the dances on a huge copy of the ball programme (stuck on a nearby wall) that they are most desperate to walk through. The top few dances (like 3) with most dots nearby are the ones that will be walked through. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx Never believe anything until it's officially denied. -- Margaret Atwood
March 8, 2006, 4:50 p.m. (Message 44570, in reply to message 44502)
Malcolm Brown wrote: > While I have no objection to a brief re-cap, I really cannot see the > justification for anything more. Presumably it is possible to get hold of > the programme, and the instructions, before going to the dance - what is > wrong in putting in a little homework, or even learning the dances while > travelling to the dance? Anselm (in Germany) and others (in the UK, Austria, Monaco,....) endorsed this comment, while some comments from the US seem to be going the other way. Someone said that there could be a cultural difference, related to the way children are educated. Maybe. But I wouldn't want the impression to get around that, over this side of the pond, dancers aren't willing or able to study a briefing booklet, or look up a dance in Pilling, or google it up on the internet. When I began dancing SCD in earnest (in New York) I would spend hours before a dance studying the briefing booklet, using red and white dice to help me figure out what the instructions meant. (I have five red dice for the women, and five white dice for the men, so I can cope with any dance up to five couples.) Plus I could talk to other dancers and discuss any queries I had, and maybe walk through some tricky bits, plus sometimes there were official walk-throughs in the afternoon beforehand, plus sometimes the weekend teachers would teach a dance in class. I need these props less now, but I do always study the booklet - or look up the dances in the various ways that are open to all of us. In short, by the time a ball or dance finally arrives, all I want and all I expect is a crisp and accurate reminder of how the dance goes. A short briefing or recap, in other words. (These terms, along with that of 'talk-through' are synonymous to me.) Frankly, I feel I owe it to my fellow dancers to study the dances as well as I can before a dance. And I can confirm that there are many dancers on this side of the Atlantic, including renowned teachers (native American born as well as UK-born), who lament the trend towards long and repetitive "briefs" and in fact are quite militant about it. They feel it discourages self-reliance, and helps perpetuate a vicious circle of dancers not being well prepared and MCs providing longer and longer "briefs". By the way, Anselm, that sticky dots idea seems rather neat. I might try it sometime. Chris (New York) Anselm wrote "everyone is given a number of little sticky dots (like 3), which they can then put beside the dances on a huge copy of the ball programme (stuck on a nearby wall) that they are most desperate to walk through. The top few dances (like 3) with most dots nearby are the ones that will be walked through."
March 8, 2006, 5:05 p.m. (Message 44571, in reply to message 44570)
Chris wrote: > In short, by the time a ball or dance finally arrives, all I > want and all I > expect is a crisp and accurate reminder of how the dance > goes. A short > briefing or recap, in other words. > > Frankly, I feel I owe it to my fellow dancers to study the > dances as well as > I can before a dance. Well said, Chris. I'll add that it's my experience that if one doesn't know a complicated dance before the briefing, one is not likely to learn it from same; therefore, long and detailed briefings (a contradiction in terms) are not of benefit to those who don't know the dance, while being an irritant to those who do. Pat Charlottesville, Virginia USA
March 9, 2006, 10:50 a.m. (Message 44600, in reply to message 44502)
Pia and All, I agree a recap is very welcomed after a weeks hard work and all you want to do is relax. Christina