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Scottish Country Dancing VS Scottish Folk Dancing

James Leonard Rooke

James Leonard Rooke

Jan. 28, 2006, 11:09 p.m. (Message 43917)

For 14 months I was a participant in a local Scottish Dance group. The 
advertising for this group billed it as "Scottish Folk Dancing". The girls 
of the group billed it as "Scottish Country Dancing". Is there a difference 
n the two names o was that just a fluke? I find lots of references to 
Sottish Country Dancing but hardly any to Scottish Folk Dance. I'm just 
trying to learn.


James Leonard Rooke
http://users.chartertn.net/jleonard
Jim
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 29, 2006, 1:36 a.m. (Message 43918, in reply to message 43917)

Very old issue.
  Miss M used to stress that SCD was not folk dancing but ballroom dancing.
  Obviously she had her own difinitions that allowed her to think that
  these terms as generally understood are not necessarily exclusive.
   
  While she would probably never admit to my reasoning, but she was
  correct in saying that they are not the same as SCD does not meet
  the normal criteria for folk dancing.
   
  She had another reason that I have deduced from conversations with
  her in addition to her lectures. In her mind, "folk dancing" was
  peasant dancing, again not necessarily according to most
  definitions, and Scotland did not have peasants. My suggestion to
  this is to come up with a good word for all of those highlanders who
  were cleared into the cities and the colonies.
   
  Using the local terms here in Spain, under the general heading of
  dance we have "ball de bot" (folk dancing), "ball de saló" (ball
  room dancing), and sevillanas (dancing from Spain, but not the ball
  de bot that are the regional folk dances).
   
  Ballroom dancing does not apply as a criteria here as all dancing of
  all three types is done outside, though the only dancing I have not
  seen inside is folk dancing (ball de bot). Under the classification
  of ball de bot, there are 4 types, all of which share music and
  steps, but not necessarily style with Spain. These are the jota and
  bolero, which are considered peasant dances, and fandangos, which
  are in the style of the "senyoria", the last, the mateixa, is
  freestyle couple dancing, without ever having a formation, but using
  both steps from the other three, but also shading off into the type
  of dancing done at rock concerts.
   
  Even if we pretend that SCD was ever folk dancing, once the Society
  got a hold of it, it would cease to be since the very nature of a
  controling organization tends to put a stop to the traditional folk
  process.
Ron Mackey

Ron Mackey

Jan. 29, 2006, 2:05 a.m. (Message 43923, in reply to message 43917)

> For 14 months I was a participant in a local Scottish Dance group. The 
> advertising for this group billed it as "Scottish Folk Dancing". The girls 
> of the group billed it as "Scottish Country Dancing". Is there a difference 
> n the two names o was that just a fluke? I find lots of references to 
> Sottish Country Dancing but hardly any to Scottish Folk Dance. I'm just 
> trying to learn.
> 
> 
> James Leonard Rooke


	Careful James
		Certain people might get offended if you refer to 
Scottish Folk Dance!     That's why we call it Scottish Country Dancing.  
It has the connotation of 'Balls' and 'smart' to many.
	Regards, Ron
James Leonard Rooke

James Leonard Rooke

Jan. 29, 2006, 4:09 a.m. (Message 43925, in reply to message 43923)

At 01:05 AM 1/29/2006 +0000, you wrote:

>         Careful James
>                 Certain people might get offended if you refer to
>Scottish Folk Dance!     That's why we call it Scottish Country Dancing.
>It has the connotation of 'Balls' and 'smart' to many.
>         Regards, Ron

Thanks for your warning to be careful using Scottish Folk dance.  The 
person that was responsible for the clubs advertising wasn't a member  and 
the girls (ladies) who were the main members made up badges calling it SCD 
which even I considered more appropriate.

James Leonard Rooke
http://users.chartertn.net/jleonard
Jim
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 29, 2006, 4:14 p.m. (Message 43928, in reply to message 43925)

Isn't the word 'Folk' more a european continent derivative?  'Folkedans' etc
which to me at least means 'traditional' - and isn't Scottish Country
Dancing just a style of Scottish Traditional Dancing?   Highland, Step,
Orkney etc being some of the others?

And when I say traditional, I don't necessarily mean that it is old and
unchanged - I am a firm believer that 'traditional' evolves.

Pia
Gary Lindsey

Gary Lindsey

Jan. 29, 2006, 3:33 p.m. (Message 43927, in reply to message 43923)

Are we not splitting hairs again?  What is the definition of a "folk dance"?
A quick reference check and from Encarta Dictionary:  a dance that is
traditional to a culture, community, or country.

I think SCD meets that definition.


Gary Lindsey
Flying Ghillies SCD
Dayton, Ohio, USA
www.rscdscincinnati.org
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 29, 2006, 4:14 p.m. (Message 43929, in reply to message 43927)

Gary - you just ruined a good hair splitting session !!!!! :>)

Pia
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 29, 2006, 4:47 p.m. (Message 43932, in reply to message 43927)

Your theory breaks down when it comes to the word "tradition" in
conjunction with the other words.
  Country dancing was and is traditional to the U.K. community, but
  Scottish country dancing never existed before the Society, which
  made up the term and created something called "scottish country
  dancing" which is different from the traditional country dances in
  Scotland.
  Second problem is that it is a tradition only within the SCD
  community, which does not qualify as "folk" in the usual sense of
  the word, since it excludes the other  Scottish folk who don´t want
  to go to classes taught by its teachers, or dance according to their
  traditions that do not agree with the RSCDS.
   
  On the other hand, much of the dancing promoted by the EFDSS does
  qualify as folk, since their actions have been to record and
  publish, but not legislate a new non preexisting style.
   
  Miss M, and quite rightly so, did not like were folk dancing, as
  tradition, was headed in Scotland. As a result, she created her own
  form of dance by selectively sampling and interpreting pre-existing
  traditional dancing in Scotland. This fits neither the terms "folk"
  nor "traditional".
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 29, 2006, 5:51 p.m. (Message 43934, in reply to message 43932)

It is a bit chicken and egg - when 'traditional dancing' started - way back
whenever, it was probably not called 'traditional' dancing, but 'some
new-fangled ideas that those young whipper snappers brought in' or words to
that effect.  Traditional is in itself a development of something - just
because we have documented it better than people did hundreds of years ago,
and because we can remember the person starting it, doesn't in my opinion
mean that it is not a tradition.

Tradition in my opinon does not equate with dead and gone and unchanging
within a set time-frame, but is a living, developing form of expressive arts
with roots in the country/culture/community it started from.

Pia
SMiskoe

SMiskoe

Jan. 29, 2006, 5:54 p.m. (Message 43935, in reply to message 43917)

In a message dated 1/29/2006 11:52:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
xxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx writes:

Tradition in my opinon does not equate with dead and gone and  unchanging
within a set time-frame, but is a living, developing form of  expressive arts
with roots in the country/culture/community it started  from.




I have heard that 'tradition' is what everyone did 15 years ago.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
Chris1Ronald

Chris1Ronald

Jan. 30, 2006, 6:21 a.m. (Message 43946, in reply to message 43917)

The debate about whether RSCDS style dancing is folk dancing has  always 
bothered me a bit.  I grew up doing "country dancing" in  England.   I don't think 
I ever doubted that this was folk  dancing.  A little later in life, living 
far from the UK, I was happy  to discover that I could continue doing this kind 
of dancing by joining a  Scottish country dancing group.  The dancing was 
similar in the sense that  I knew many of the basic figures (hays/reels, 
stars/hands across, circles,  promenade, etc.) and the music (which I also loved) was 
similar too.   
 
So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the  overall 
British folk dance scene.  One difference is this: it was easy  to do "English" 
country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do  SCD on grass! 
 
Chris, New York.
Thomas G. Mungall, III

Thomas G. Mungall, III

Jan. 30, 2006, 3:27 p.m. (Message 43951, in reply to message 43946)

I think the answer may be that in Scotland there are balls where SCD is the
main form of dancing and that SCD remains an active, living form of dance.
In a sense it is analogous to Scottish Highland attire which is living
attire not folk costume. (Where else is this true?)

Actually much depends on how one defines "folk" dancing. One could argue
that the untutored dancing created by teens (especially that of the late
1960s) is really folk dancing. The same arguments could be made for Country
& Western, Cajun, Swing, Waltz, Fox Trot, Latin styles, etc. These were all
created in particular localities and spread and underwent refinements and
stylization. For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century,
went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong
Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be
resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz
is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is
living dance in the same sense as SCD.

If your definition requires a form of dance to be in the "popular culture"
then maybe SCD is "folk" dancing in a limited sense (especially in the USA
where it is associated with the Scottish Heritage movement). Today, the
popular culture is largely governed by the media, especially the American
media. One would suspect that in Scotland this would not be true and SCD may
remain in the popular culture(?).

Yours aye,
Tom Mungall
Baton Rouge, La, USA
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 30, 2006, 10:15 p.m. (Message 43963, in reply to message 43951)

"In a sense it is analogous to Scottish Highland attire which is living
attire not folk costume. (Where else is this true?)"
   
  Pure RSCDS and twee propaganda, where else, by the same criteria,
  almost everywhere in Europe.
   
  During my extended stays in Scotland, outside SCD balls, I could go
  months without ever seeing a kilt (staying in St Andrews, in
  Edinburgh 3 times a week, once a week in Perth, occasional visits to
  Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling. About the same odds as seeing a
  kilt in London.
   
  Here in Spain, my village, other neighboring villages, in Palma 3
  times per week, I see "national dress" at least twice a week. And
  interesting enough very seldom at folk dance events, where the dem
  teams only wear these clothes while actually doing a dem, quickly
  changing into civies for social dancing. National dress is regularly
  seen in church, and worn by musicians about half the time. It is
  also the uniform, or at least part of the uniform for many local,
  non international sports. Another difference is that I know of only
  one shop that sells a cheap version of it for tourists, most worn by
  locals are hand made and handed down within families. OK, I live in
  one of Spain´s 18 regions, but from experience, the same seems to be
  true in Aragó, Catalunya, and Asturias, and across the border in
  Portugal.
Thomas G. Mungall, III

Thomas G. Mungall, III

Jan. 30, 2006, 10:38 p.m. (Message 43965, in reply to message 43963)

Richard, It's good to know about Spain. One would hope to see this true
throughout the world.

However, I've seen Scottish attire from the Borders (Melrose at weddings) on
through to the Highlands. However, I'll warrent it is usually for special
occasions like weddings, etc.

Tom
Ozorak

Ozorak

Jan. 30, 2006, 11:14 p.m. (Message 43968, in reply to message 43965)

And then ther'e the boy in the US who was kicked out from his prom because 
he was wearing a kilt (this was on national news a few weeks ago).

Etienne
Mike Briggs

Mike Briggs

Jan. 30, 2006, 11:17 p.m. (Message 43969, in reply to message 43968)

Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh
violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy?

Mike 



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Ozorak

Ozorak

Jan. 31, 2006, 3:10 a.m. (Message 43973, in reply to message 43969)

Nope.  The principal didn't want no guy in a skirt, period, even though
the vice principal had given the OK.  I think it happened in Texas, but
that's the jist of what happened.

Etienne
Carl Spain

Carl Spain

Jan. 31, 2006, 4:01 a.m. (Message 43974, in reply to message 43973)

It was in Jackson, Missouri.  According to the student, when the
principal's told him he was violating the school dress code he told him
"he didn't want anybody looking like a clown," although the principal
later stated that he did not recall saying that.  Earlier this month the
student received a letter of apology from the district superintendent
which stated that the district would train staff on proper application
of the dress code.

The great irony is that the principal's name is McClard.

Carl Spain
Waco TX USA
Mike Mudrey

Mike Mudrey

Jan. 31, 2006, 5:36 a.m. (Message 43975, in reply to message 43974)

>
>
>The great irony is that the principal's name is McClard.


Sure it wasn't McClod
Anselm Lingnau

Anselm Lingnau

Jan. 31, 2006, 10:40 a.m. (Message 43985, in reply to message 43974)

Carl Spain wrote:

> [...] that the district would train staff on proper application
> of the dress code.

Right. About ten compulsory viewings of »Braveheart« should do the trick.

Incidentally, anyone who thinks the common or garden-variety sgian dubh is a 
weapon should try stabbing or cutting something with one, like a piece of 
fruit. I know that the only type of injury you could inflict on somebody 
using *my* sgian dubh would be a contusion. (Then again, I wouldn't want to 
have to discuss the finer points of Scottish attire with anyone who thinks a 
nail file or crotcheting needle is a lethal weapon, so if I'm flying the sg. 
d. goes into the checked suitcase.)

Now, on the other hand, those bagpipes ...

Anselm
-- 
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
The sublime and the ridiculous are often so nearly related, that it is
difficult to class them separately. One step above the sublime makes the
ridiculous, and one step above the ridiculous makes the sublime again.
                                                               -- Thomas Paine
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:10 p.m. (Message 44001, in reply to message 43985)

Since Anselm brought up pipes, I have an OT to make on the subject.
   
  While most SCD types I know seem to be aware that the pipes are not
  unique to Scotland, most non SCD types, seem to think that the
  entire Scottish nation spends half their time marching up and down
  the brae playing pipes and wearing a kilt.
   
  But their is a flip side to this problem, that I have noticed.
  Outside of Spain, Scottish pipers seem to have two very bad habits.
  1. they tend not to play the more challenging pipe music, preferring
  military marches and Scottish tunes.
  2. they seem to have a need to explain their instrument all the
  time, as if to justify it, and their existance. This suggests to me
  that these pipers have left the "Scottish" folk and joined the "folk
  of Scottish pipers" (similar to RSCDS folk dancers, leaving the folk
  dancing of Scotland for the dancing of the RSCDS folk). Here, where
  live piping is an element the the cultural life, not requiring a
  specific costume, or performing unit, it retains more of its folk
  elements. While we have pipes for weddings in the same context as in
  Scotland, for our "morris" dancing, along with the pipe and tabor,
  they are the only instrument used for performances, the offertory
  during mass, processionals, etc. (public dances are use more
  eclectic musical instruments). Since none of the Scots I have met
  here do not speak Mallorquí, they always have a translator, the
  reaction to which is "duh, why is this guy talking down to us,
  everyone knows how pipes work - and this Scottish guy does not even
 know how to remove the changer and play it with his mouth, when tonguing is required".
   
  This fits into the same type of selfconscious humor that some people
  wearing kilts have to use when speaking to the uninitiated.
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 31, 2006, 10:04 p.m. (Message 44007, in reply to message 44001)

Of course they walk up and down when they play, Richard - they are trying to
get away from the sound.

Pia
Mary Pankonen

Mary Pankonen

Jan. 31, 2006, 1:58 p.m. (Message 43989, in reply to message 43973)

The kid wanted to wear shorts to school but was told he could not because it 
was not the time of year for shorts wearing.  He noted girls were allowed to 
wear skirts anytime of year, so he decided to wear skirts instead of shorts 
as a protest.  The kilt came out at this point.

Mary,
Chicago, IL


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Etienne Ozorak" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "SCD news and discussion" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: Scottish Country Dancing VS Scottish Folk Dancing
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:10:08 -0500 (EST)

Nope.  The principal didn't want no guy in a skirt, period, even though
the vice principal had given the OK.  I think it happened in Texas, but
that's the jist of what happened.

Etienne

 > Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh
 > violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy?
 >
 > Mike
 >
 >
 >
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 > +                1519 Storytown Road              +
 > +            Oregon WI  53711-1925  USA           +
 > +  +1 608 835 0914 (voice)  +1 608 835 0924 (fax) +
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 > _______________________________________________
 > http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey
 >
Anselm Lingnau

Anselm Lingnau

Jan. 31, 2006, 3:45 p.m. (Message 43991, in reply to message 43989)

Mary Pankonen wrote:

> The kid wanted to wear shorts to school but was told he could not because
> it was not the time of year for shorts wearing.

He should move to Scotland. When I was living there, the school kids seemed to 
be wearing shorts in mid-December.

Anselm
-- 
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Great warmth is not limited to a dancer's legs.            -- Keith Eric Grant
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 31, 2006, 4:34 p.m. (Message 43992, in reply to message 43991)

Of course Anselm - you can't possible wan't your son to wear long trousers
until he is 11 :>)

Pia
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:42 p.m. (Message 44005, in reply to message 43992)

At my old high school, there was a Samoan community that owned an
entire street near their church. They were the ones who ultimately
broke the dress code. In protest about the girls being forbidden to
wear pants, which was some how bad, when it was OK for some of them to
wear skirts no wider than a "hell´s angels belt", the Samoan started
comming to school in sarongs, when the administration complained they
forced them to back down as this was ethnic discrimination against
their national dress, during the process a lot of wannabe scots
started wearing their sister´s plaid skirts.
S. K. Graham

S. K. Graham

Jan. 31, 2006, 10:16 p.m. (Message 44008, in reply to message 44005)

On my latest dance trip to Little Rock, AK my bag was searched.

Because I had a "replica weapon".

It was a kilt pin with the sword/shield/clan crest so common here in
America.  (I don't know if the Scots actually use those style pins.)  It is
made of pewter, and the pin to attach it to the kilt is significantly more
dangerous than the sword part.

And the person doing the search had to ask two different supervisors if they
would have to confiscate it.  (They decided not to.)

Simply amazing.  (Good thing I didn't have my Sign Dubh with me.)

Keith Graham
Atlanta, GA
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Feb. 1, 2006, 12:30 a.m. (Message 44010, in reply to message 44008)

Speaking of a "sgean dubh". At one time I was a writer for the St
Andrews Citizen doing music reviews. In one of my reviews, I reported
on a group that called itself, "Skiin´ Doo", which is how I spelled
it, but on Thursday when the paper came out they had changed the
spelling to "Sgean Dubh". Unfortunately they did not look at the
accompanying photo, where the lads all had matching t-sirts, showing a
pigeon on skiis.
Ron Mackey

Ron Mackey

Feb. 2, 2006, 1:07 a.m. (Message 44033, in reply to message 44010)

Goss wrote:-

Speaking of a "sgean dubh". At one time I was a writer for the St
Andrews Citizen doing music reviews. In one of my reviews, I reported
on a group that called itself, "Skiin´ Doo", which is how I spelled it, but
on Thursday when the paper came out they had changed the spelling to
"Sgean Dubh". Unfortunately they did not look at the accompanying
photo, where the lads all had matching t-sirts, showing a pigeon on
skiis. >


Oh, yes.  I like that!  :))
Regards, Ron
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:36 p.m. (Message 44003, in reply to message 43991)

This story reminds me of a TV show back when women were starting to
wear trousers in the work place where a dress code had required that
they wear dresses in the past.
   
  The protagonist was meeting her boyfriend (both lawyers) for lunch
  in an upscale restaurant (where the waiters wore the tux costume).
  She was wearing dress pants over which was a long shirt tied at the
  waist.
   
  The waiter said, sorry we can not serve women wearing pants here. So
  she stood up and took them off, leaving only the shirt that was
  longer than most minis at the time.
Gary Lindsey

Gary Lindsey

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:39 p.m. (Message 44004, in reply to message 43989)

Actually, the "skirt" thing is a different one and in New Jersey. 


Gary Lindsey
Flying Ghillies SCD
Dayton, Ohio, USA
www.rscdscincinnati.org
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 7:41 a.m. (Message 43978, in reply to message 43969)

"Not the same kid who was barred from the prom because his sgian dubh
violated the school's zero-tolerance no-weapons policy?"
   
  Mike,
   
  I Am assuming that this is a joke. In most cases such as this barred
  from the prom would be the least of his problems. A long time ago,
  before all this concern about terrorists and air travel, an L.A.
  girl won some competition in Scotland for which the prize was a
  broadsword. The cabin attendant simply took it up to the cockpit for
  safe keeping during the flight.
Mike Briggs

Mike Briggs

Jan. 31, 2006, 11:03 a.m. (Message 43988, in reply to message 43978)

The high school in Jackson, MO, by the way, is McIntosh High School.

Apparently that was not the only incident of kiltophobia in the US
last year:  "Eric Schulzentenberg was stunned when school chiefs in
Alexandria, Minnesota, ruled his Highland dress did not comply with
their dress code."  Guardian, April 27 2005.

This is the one that I was thinking of:  "A schoolboy who dressed up
for his high school prom in full Scottish highland regalia, including
the skean-dhu - a small dagger kept in the sock - has been banned from
attending his school for carrying a weapon. The 16-year-old was unable
to persuade staff at his school in Holt, Michigan,that the item was as
accepted a part of his costume as the kilt and sporran, which he also
wore."  Guardian, July 26 2001.

Perhaps they manage these affairs better in England:

http://www.promdress.co.uk/suits/mainpage.htm

Mike



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Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:31 p.m. (Message 44002, in reply to message 43988)

"16-year-old was unable to persuade staff at his school in Holt,
Michigan,that the item was as accepted a part of his costume as the
kilt and sporran"
   
  I am not surprised, having been in Holt, Michigan were many of the
  pickup trucks have gun racks as a part of the local tradition.
   
  I would say, OK accepted, but only as an accessory, not a
  requirement. It would be pretty dumb to believe that this kid was so
  unconscious of where he was and the rules as to wear a knife in his
  sock by accident. Where I live, it is common to carry a knife, and
  most males do. The comon knife is either a generic one similar to a
  old straight edge razor, or one specific to one´s needs, or
  profession. The one I carry has about a 3.4 inch blade curved into
  an arc of about 60º. Its original purpose was for cutting grapes of
  the vine, but is good for pealing fruit, cutting bread, etc. (unless
  one eats in a restaurant with a table cloth here, you have to ask
  for a knife when eating out, or at a friend´s house, as the only
  tool provided is a fork, and maybe a spoon if needed. Knowing the
  possibility of not getting where I want to go, I make a habit of
  leaving it home when I fly.
   
  I have only once gotten into trouble. With the terrorist thing,
  local government has become more security conscious. In Palma, I
  needed a booklet with the schedule of a week long fiesta. The
  tourist offices were out, so I went to the city hall.
  1. Asked the guard if he had any - he pointed to the empty rack.
  2. Suggested that the local branch of the public library (off the
  ground floor lobby), had one - he said probably.
  3. Asked if I could just run in a get it - he said no, I would have
  to park my bicycle across the street instead of leaning it against
  the lamp post in my plane site (went to chain bike).
  4. Entered building and told to run back pack through scanner (about
  30 feet from the rack outside the library where I could see the
  programs I wanted).
  5. My back pack had a pair of scisors - so he inspected the bag and
  said that I would have to leave them with him.
  6. Asked if I could simply leave the pack as I walked across the
  lobby and back - no the scisors had to be put in a plastic bag, for
  which I was given a chit.
  7. Crossed the lobby picked up the program and returned with my chit
  - questioned, what did my scisors look like (?????). Got my scisors
  and left.
  Irony was that there was only a metal detector for backpacks and
  purses, and I had my knife in my pocket.
   
  On the subject of security, my last German trip was worse. In the
  Stutgart airport (coming home from the Rechsberg weekend). The
  scanner was at the rope entrance to the Iberia line for checking in.
  I ran my bag through and passed. About 4 people ahead of me, was one
  of those people for whom life is never simple, and who seemed not to
  understand that the airline personnel would be unable to help him at
  that location and suggested that he might want to go to the counter
  where one purchases tickets. After about 10 minutes of this, I
  unzipped the top flap, and leaving it open, pulled out a book and
  started to read. 15 minutes later, when I was now second in line, I
  got a tap on the shoulder by the security guard who told me that my
  carryon was unzipped. I thanked him and said that I knew and would
  be putting my book back when I got to the window. He said that I
  could not do that because then I would have to get back in line and
  have my luggage rescanned. When I suggested that he simply
 scan the book, since he had already scanned the bag from which it had
 come, he looked confused.
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 7:36 a.m. (Message 43976, in reply to message 43965)

Special occasions. I have seen tuxes at weddings, but no one would
equate them with a folk costume or national dress. I was married in
scotland, and, besides me, only the best man and father-of-the-bride
wore kilts, both rented (though the father liked his so much that he
later bought one). I suspect that the majority of kilts seen at
weddings do not belong to the wearer.
Martin

Martin

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:11 a.m. (Message 43979, in reply to message 43976)


	    
	  
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 8:52 p.m. (Message 43999, in reply to message 43979)

There is an element missing from your tux example, in that the tux
represents no particular folk - so I would not consider them national
dress, nor would I things such as levis.
   
  You seem to be adding an element to the concept of folk costume,
  that only seems to exist in traveling dem teams. Recently, I have
  been to some folk festivals here, and then been to the countries of
  origin. Yes, many of the traveling teams, have a costume within a
  narrow range of variation, in every case where I have been to their
  base, the range gets much wider. On the local scene, two women with
  the same costume at the same event gets about the same reaction as
  the mother of the bride and the mother of the groom showing up at a
  wedding in the same dress. The range for men´s costumes in each case
  here is much smaller than that of the women.
   
  Last year, there was a Serbian group performing around the island
  (this is how groups attending festivals pay for their trip). When
  they were dancing serbian dances of their area, each costume was
  different, however when they were doing Bosnian, Macedonian,
  Bulgarian, or Hungarian dances from Serbia, the costumes were pretty
  much alike.
  
"essence of traditional costumes is that everyone be dressed 
identically." Not so, in the villages I have visited, and like
variation in SCD, the norm is always evolving, which is a part of the
folk process, unless it has been standardized by the Royal [name]
[type] Socitey.
   
"men think themselves as above hoi polloi"
  Exactly, the tux is a symbol of a class, not a folk. In the same way
  that the kilt, used to be a symbol of low class (hard to ride a
  horse wearing one), and has become one of middle or upper class,
  more so depending on the grandiosity of the jacket, less so
  depending on the amount of hardwear.
  .
  Blue-jeans, yes a uniform, but not of a folk, but an attitude, class, and or age group.
   
  "Why are kilt becoming popular again for special events?"
  Lots of reasons, including ...
  1. lack of understanding by young fascists who think that being
  Celtic, white, and unemployed is some how related to race in an
  unhistoric way.
  2. outsiders who feel a need to identify.
  3. foreign nobility who like to pretend they belong,
  4. SCD dancers who can´t dance and compensate by purchasing an expensive outfit.
  5. And those of us who enjoy SCD and were indoctrinated in wearing it to dances.
  Of course there are too many positive reasons to mention. 
   
  BTW, pardon my chauvinism, one of the Scottish pipers at our local
  piping festival was a woman, wearing the complete outfit. I am sorry
  but it takes a very good tailor to make a man´s kilt fit a woman´s
  body.
  
'cause they let you thumb your nose at uniformity and still look formal 
and 
correct (not to mention, dashing, handsome, sexy, distinguished ...)

Martin,
in Grenoble, France.
Martin

Martin

Feb. 1, 2006, 9:58 a.m. (Message 44013, in reply to message 43999)

I hesitated before writing : " the essence of traditional costumes is that 
everyone be dressed
identically"
as I have obviously not been all round the world, but my limited experience 
is just that. They are a uniform,  evolving, but leveling. Unlike the 
costumes of traveling dem groups that need to add variety and colour to 
please their audiences. Richard's expeerience is different from mine.

I would also add that those "Scots" that wear the kilt have also turned the 
national garment into something like a folk costume by insisting that it 
must be worn with certain standardized jackets and accessories. At least the 
rugby fans wear their kilts with everyday sweaters & t-shirts, just as they 
would if wearing two-legged garments.

(If you are wondering what is the difference between Scots and "Scots", let 
me say Richard would probably have used the word "wannabe".  I have a 
feeling that, across the Atlantic, they are fussier about detail than we are 
on the eastern side)

Martin,
in Grenoble, France.
Bryan McAlister

Bryan McAlister

Jan. 31, 2006, 9:57 a.m. (Message 43981, in reply to message 43976)

In message <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>, 
Richard Goss <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> writes
>I suspect that the majority of kilts seen at weddings do not belong to 
>the wearer.

A good rule is green kilt + white socks - may be hired.
-- 
Bryan McAlister
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 8:56 p.m. (Message 44000, in reply to message 43981)

Another clue, is whether or how the man crosses his legs when he sits,
or how he is always careful to keep his knees togather.
   
  The real test, is how he gets into a car. For example, one of the
  primary reasons the steering in Scotland is on the right side is
  because one need not get one´s knickers in a twist if he is the
  driver, but passengers have to be careful or they end up riding on a
  wad of twisted tartan.
Pia Walker

Pia Walker

Jan. 31, 2006, 10:08 a.m. (Message 43983, in reply to message 43976)

You would be surprised how many young people now own a kilt - in stead of
renting it - although renting is still the norm - mostly because if your son
is growing like a week and has grown out of all the family hand me downs, it
is the only thing to do until he has stopped growing.

At the World-cup in football some years ago, it was announced that the
kilt-makers could not keep up with demand.

You see people wear kilts at Rugby matches, football matches, high-school
dances, weddings, ceilidhs, New-Year parties.

Pia


  Special occasions. I have seen tuxes at weddings, but no one would equate
them with a folk costume or national dress. I was married in scotland, and,
besides me, only the best man and father-of-the-bride wore kilts, both
rented (though the father liked his so much that he later bought one). I
suspect that the majority of kilts seen at weddings do not belong to the
wearer.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/242 - Release Date: 26/01/2006
Maureen Vallis

Maureen Vallis

Jan. 30, 2006, 3:52 p.m. (Message 43952, in reply to message 43946)

Is there an SCE group in the Bonita Springs/Fort Myers/Naples area of Florida? 

xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx wrote:  The debate about whether RSCDS style
dancing is folk dancing has always
bothered me a bit. I grew up doing "country dancing" in England. I don't think 
I ever doubted that this was folk dancing. A little later in life, living 
far from the UK, I was happy to discover that I could continue doing this kind 
of dancing by joining a Scottish country dancing group. The dancing was 
similar in the sense that I knew many of the basic figures (hays/reels, 
stars/hands across, circles, promenade, etc.) and the music (which I also loved) was 
similar too. 

So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD to be part of the overall 
British folk dance scene. One difference is this: it was easy to do "English" 
country dances on grass, but it's really hard to do SCD on grass! 

Chris, New York.
JimGaitley@aol.com

JimGaitley@aol.com

Jan. 30, 2006, 1:23 p.m. (Message 43949, in reply to message 43917)

In a message dated 1/30/2006 12:24:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes:

...........................So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD  to 
be part of the  overall British folk dance scene.  One difference is this: it 
was easy  to do "English" country  dances on grass, but it's really hard to do  
SCD on grass!  

Chris, New York. 
 
 
I've often suspected that English Country dancers were  dancing while on 
Grass,  probably best for Scottish Country Dancers  to stick to Whiskey!  
 
: )  Gaitley
Rebecca Sager

Rebecca Sager

Jan. 30, 2006, 4:50 p.m. (Message 43953, in reply to message 43917)

Well, thank you for a laughing-out-loud-at-work moment!
Becky
 
Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- xxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx wrote:
In a message dated 1/30/2006 12:24:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes:

...........................So, for me, it seems natural to consider SCD  to 
be part of the  overall British folk dance scene.  One difference is this: it 
was easy  to do "English" country  dances on grass, but it's really hard to do  
SCD on grass!  

Chris, New York. 
 
 
I've often suspected that English Country dancers were  dancing while on 
Grass,  probably best for Scottish Country Dancers  to stick to Whiskey!  
 
: )  Gaitley
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 30, 2006, 10:20 p.m. (Message 43964, in reply to message 43953)

LOL on the grass vs grass pun.
   
  However this quote suggests another point ""English" country  dances
  on grass, but it's really hard to do in SCD".
   
  The fact that SCD style requires a certain type of floor, whereas
  Scottish folk dancing does not, does point out a difference caused
  by the removal of country dancing from the folk and into the area of
  a practiced art form. I know of no other national dance form that
  requires a special place to be performed, or for that matter the
  complaints about the floor not being sprung, too slippery, too hard,
  too bumpy, not level etc.
Ron Mackey

Ron Mackey

Feb. 2, 2006, 1:07 a.m. (Message 44031, in reply to message 43964)

On 30 Jan 2006 at 13:20, Richard Goss wrote:


> LOL on the grass vs grass pun. However this quote suggests another
> point ""English" country  dances on grass, but it's really hard to do
> in SCD". The fact that SCD style requires a certain type of floor,
> whereas Scottish folk dancing does not, does point out a difference
> caused by the removal of country dancing from the folk and into the
> area of a practiced art form. I know of no other national dance form
> that requires a special place to be performed, or for that matter the
> complaints about the floor not being sprung, too slippery, too hard,
> too bumpy, not level etc.   

	After all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used 
to be called) and various other events I have attended over the years I 
have only rarely seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot.  A 
bit damp sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to 
hinder the dancing.
	We had a teacher long ago who regularly used to tell us that if 
we couldn't do a Strathspey on grass, then we couldn't dance a 
strathspey!  'Pick up your feet and put them downagain' was another 
saying.  He started in me the dislike I still posess of dancers sliding 
their feet round the floor.   It's like squeaky chalk on a blackboard!
Steven Epstein

Steven Epstein

Jan. 30, 2006, 7:42 p.m. (Message 43959, in reply to message 43917)

Thomas Mungal III wrote:

*For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century,
went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong
Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be
resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz
is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is
living dance in the same sense as SCD.*

Waltz is really both, and at the same time. Go to any contradance,
English country dance, or SCD event (at least around the Delaware
Valley) and there is at least one *free* waltz, usually two, done
throughout the evening, usually at the end and at the halftime break.

The style of waltz that predominated about ten years ago when I
started contradancing was referred to as *country* waltz. That's
country as in the rural sense. Poor dance posture, no
leading/following, no giving weight, spaghetti arms. In other words,
untutored. In other words, folk. :-)

Since then, most people have learned to dance a ballroom style of
waltz, owing to the many workshops held over the years. But this more
ballroom style still has a *natural* feel, as opposed to the dance
studio variety.

Steve Epstein
Steven Epstein

Steven Epstein

Jan. 30, 2006, 7:51 p.m. (Message 43960, in reply to message 43917)

Steve Epstein wrote:

*Thomas Mungal III wrote:

**For example, the waltz after the beginning of the 20th Century,
went out of style when the fox trot became popular. The waltz had strong
Germanic associations so after WWI it fell into disfavor. It had to be
resurrected in the UK and was standardized, etc. So, one could say the waltz
is folk dancing. However, we know it is not considered folk dancing. It is
living dance in the same sense as SCD.**


Oh, I re-read your post and realized we are probably saying the same
thing in a different way. The difference between SCD and waltz,
however, is that no organized waltz society in the manner of the RSCDS
came along to *standardize* waltz. Thank God :-)

Steve Epstein
Thomas G. Mungall, III

Thomas G. Mungall, III

Jan. 30, 2006, 10:54 p.m. (Message 43966, in reply to message 43960)

Steve, Actually in 1921, "The Dancing Times" called a conference of dance
teachers together to discuss the demise of the popularity of the Waltz and
from this conference the standard walk-side-close technique. So, that isn't
too far from what the goals of the SCDS & later the RSCDS. BTW the waltz is
an outgrowth of the Landler an Austro-German folk dance.

Tom
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Jan. 31, 2006, 7:38 a.m. (Message 43977, in reply to message 43966)

In Spanish country dances, "valse" is the translation for pousette.
mlamontbrown

mlamontbrown

Feb. 1, 2006, 4:43 p.m. (Message 44022, in reply to message 43960)

> Sent: 30 January 2006 18:51
> Oh, I re-read your post and realized we are probably saying the same thing in a
different way.
> The difference between SCD and waltz, however, is that no organized waltz society
in the
> manner of the RSCDS came along to *standardize* waltz. Thank God :-)
> 
> Steve Epstein

There may not have been a "Waltz Society", but there were many books written about
the correct way to waltz, and people being judged in competitions - the most recent,
widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a professional
cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles, and got
some pretty severe criticism. 

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York
Sophie Rickebusch

Sophie Rickebusch

Feb. 1, 2006, 5:38 p.m. (Message 44023, in reply to message 43917)

Quoting mlamontbrown <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>:

> widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a
> professional
> cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles,

Oh dear, I'll have to try and forget who won before they show it here - we're 
about 2 years behind, the last series we had was won by a soap opera star.

While we're on the subject, how about an SCD version? One could have the 
celebrities dancing with dem teams from different branches, doing a different 
dance each week (as first couple, twice through, like for the teacher's certificate). 
They could start with a ceilidh dance the first week, then a reel or jig with no pdb 
and simple figures, then gradually increase the difficulty: strathspey, more 
complicated figures, pdb, etc. All that with 4 RSCDS examiners to do the judging 
and presented by Robbie Shepard, maybe? And of course, extra brownie point to 
any celebrity who manages to smile and look as though they're enjoying 
themselves while they're dancing!

:-)

Sophie
-- 
Sophie Rickebusch
CH - Wettswil a. A.
seonaid.gent

seonaid.gent

Feb. 2, 2006, 11:45 p.m. (Message 44061, in reply to message 44023)

Hi Sophie,
   
  They did try a similar thing with Highland Dancing for the scottish
  bit of BBC Children in Need (Charity Television event) in November.
  They had three celebs (journalist, sports reporter and soap actress)
  and three competitive highland dancers and they had a week to learn
  two dances ( Highland Fling and the Lilt).  There was one judge from
  Strictly Come Dancing, a Highland Dance examiner and another panel
  member who escapes me at the moment.
   
  The result was absolutely hilarious.  The sports reporter won - purely on comedy value!
   
  Seonaid
  Markinch, Fife

Sophie Rickebusch <xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
  Quoting mlamontbrown :

> widely publicised competition being on TV, where the winner was a
> professional
> cricketer, - during the competition they danced a variety of ballroom styles,

Oh dear, I'll have to try and forget who won before they show it here - we're 
about 2 years behind, the last series we had was won by a soap opera star.

While we're on the subject, how about an SCD version? One could have the 
celebrities dancing with dem teams from different branches, doing a different 
dance each week (as first couple, twice through, like for the teacher's certificate). 
They could start with a ceilidh dance the first week, then a reel or jig with no pdb 
and simple figures, then gradually increase the difficulty: strathspey, more 
complicated figures, pdb, etc. All that with 4 RSCDS examiners to do the judging 
and presented by Robbie Shepard, maybe? And of course, extra brownie point to 
any celebrity who manages to smile and look as though they're enjoying 
themselves while they're dancing!

:-)

Sophie
-- 
Sophie Rickebusch
CH - Wettswil a. A.
John Chambers

John Chambers

Feb. 1, 2006, 10:03 p.m. (Message 44028, in reply to message 43917)

Pia wrote:
| Of course they walk up and down when they play, Richard -
| they are trying to get away from the sound.

The explanation I've heard is that it's  harder  to  hit  a
moving target.
Chris1Ronald

Chris1Ronald

Feb. 2, 2006, 5:31 a.m. (Message 44035, in reply to message 43917)

Ron wrote: 

"After  all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used 
to be called) and  various other events I have attended over the years I 
have only rarely  seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot.  A 
bit damp  sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to 
hinder the  dancing."
Fair enough.  I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as  well as (or better 
than) many of the really hard floors that one often has  to dance on.  When I 
made my original comment I was actually thinking  of the farmers' fields I used 
to dance on.  
 
I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS  style on a rough 
field or even a rough lawn really tiring.  Not  that I do it often.  But from 
what I remember, it's probably skip  change that I find the most challenging 
step to do on a rough surface.  
 
FWIW,
 
Chris, New York.
Bryan McAlister

Bryan McAlister

Feb. 2, 2006, 10:26 a.m. (Message 44040, in reply to message 44035)

I think it depends on the quality of the grass - a flat firm lawn is 
fine, but tiring, a stretch of grass of dubious flatness, long grass, 
rabbit holes, snakes, midges, spiders, slugs, crunchy snails etc. needs 
wells.

In message <xx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes
>Ron wrote:
>
>"After  all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used
>to be called) and  various other events I have attended over the years I
>have only rarely  seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot.  A
>bit damp  sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to
>hinder the  dancing."
>Fair enough.  I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as  well as (or better
>than) many of the really hard floors that one often has  to dance on.  When I
>made my original comment I was actually thinking  of the farmers' 
>fields I used
>to dance on.
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS  style on a rough
>field or even a rough lawn really tiring.  Not  that I do it often.  But from
>what I remember, it's probably skip  change that I find the most challenging
>step to do on a rough surface.
>
>FWIW,
>
>Chris, New York.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey

-- 
Bryan McAlister
Bryan McAlister

Bryan McAlister

Feb. 2, 2006, 10:34 a.m. (Message 44041, in reply to message 44040)

D___, spellchecker was over officious - for "Wells" read "Wellies"


In message <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>, Bryan McAlister 
<xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx> writes
>I think it depends on the quality of the grass - a flat firm lawn is 
>fine, but tiring, a stretch of grass of dubious flatness, long grass, 
>rabbit holes, snakes, midges, spiders, slugs, crunchy snails etc. needs 
>wells.
>
>In message <xx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>, xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx writes
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>>"After  all the Fetes, Garden Partys, Lawn Dances (as some used
>>to be called) and  various other events I have attended over the years I
>>have only rarely  seen dancers in trouble over the surface underfoot.  A
>>bit damp  sometimes, worms to slip on, a bit bumpy - but nothing to
>>hinder the  dancing."
>>Fair enough.  I suppose a nicely mown lawn would do as  well as (or better
>>than) many of the really hard floors that one often has  to dance on.  When I
>>made my original comment I was actually thinking  of the farmers' 
>>fields I used
>>to dance on.
>>
>>I don't know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS  style on a rough
>>field or even a rough lawn really tiring.  Not  that I do it often.  But from
>>what I remember, it's probably skip  change that I find the most challenging
>>step to do on a rough surface.
>>
>>FWIW,
>>
>>Chris, New York.
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey
>

-- 
Bryan McAlister
Ron Mackey

Ron Mackey

Feb. 2, 2006, 10:09 p.m. (Message 44057, in reply to message 44041)

On 2 Feb 2006 at 9:34, Bryan McAlister wrote:


> D___, spellchecker was over officious - for "Wells" read "Wellies"
> 

	Only ever used wellies in a Dem for The Weaving Lilt. 
We once did an afternoon Dem for a Fete held in a horse paddock.  
Forty minutes of dancing including Schiehallion (which was more or 
less de rigeur in those days) finishing with a double Foursome + 1/2 RT.
	Forgathered afterwards at a friends house for tea and then went 
up to town for a Branch Summer Dance at Porchester Hall.
	Slept well that night!  :))

	Of course, I was taller in those days!  :~)
 Ahh, yes!
Richard Goss

Richard Goss

Feb. 2, 2006, 1:23 p.m. (Message 44045, in reply to message 44040)

Also a problem keeping the formation and the steps going when
performed at agricultural affairs right after the shire horses.
Andrew Smith

Andrew Smith

Feb. 2, 2006, 1:37 p.m. (Message 44046, in reply to message 44045)

I note that on 12/1/06 Richard asked us to use his new e-mail address
xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx, but I see that the return address against this mail is
still his old one, that will soon self-destruct.
Andrew,
Bristol, UK
Thomas G. Mungall, III

Thomas G. Mungall, III

Feb. 2, 2006, 4:18 p.m. (Message 44049, in reply to message 44040)

Dancing in the street on asphalt or concrete is a bear. Dancing on tile over
concrete is also hard on the joints. When dancing on these surfaces one
realizes that there is a reason that most professional dance studios and
basketball courts have sprung hardwood floors. :-)

Tom Mungall
Baton Rouge, La, USA
Nachteule7

Nachteule7

Feb. 2, 2006, 8:10 a.m. (Message 44038, in reply to message 43917)

In einer eMail vom 02.02.2006 05:32:27 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt  
xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx:

I don't  know about anyone else, but I find dancing RSCDS  style on a rough  
field or even a rough lawn really tiring.  Not  that I do it  often.  But 
from 
what I remember, it's probably skip  change  that I find the most challenging 
step to do on a rough surface.   



I agree with you, Chris. 
Especially for people with knee problems (like me) it's terrible +  
dangerous, and I always try avoid to dance on such terrain. I find to dance on  
carpeted floor also very tiring
 
Martina
Langenfeld/Germany

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