strathspey Archive: General Stuart redux redux

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General Stuart redux redux

Message 60390 · Mike Briggs · 16 Feb 2011 15:14:40 · Top

Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General Stuart's
Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.

Mike Briggs

High of 10C today. Low of -30C last week. Spring in Wisconsin. Whoopee.


Briggs Law Office
1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
+1 608 835 0914 (voice)
+1 608 237 2379 (fax)

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60392 · Anselm Lingnau · 16 Feb 2011 16:07:16 · Top

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.

Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:

9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face second corners.

13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face first corners.

The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:

9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face 1cnr

Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness ;^)
I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
round«.

In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online version
of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on (after
vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure any
bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany ................. anselm@strathspey.org
Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
-- Raymond Kennington

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60393 · Angela Bulteel · 16 Feb 2011 17:39:57 · Top

Well blow me down, I have always (some 40 years at least) danced Rt hand to
1st cnr, pass ptnr rt shdr, then left hand to 2nd cnr and pass ptnr left
shdr, which I have to admit sounds a more tidy pattern, but have also to
admit I haven't looked at the original instructions in nearly as long, as
I'm too old to climb the attic ladder!!! So perhaps I will console myself
that at my age, I've earned the right to believe I'm right!!! (even though I
may be wrong, perish the thought!!) Great dance though, Angela

.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.

Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:

9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face second corners.

13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face first corners.

The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:

9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
1cnr

Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness
;^)
I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
round«.

In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
version
of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
(after
vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure
any
bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
anselm@strathspey.org
Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
-- Raymond
Kennington

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60394 · Mike Briggs · 16 Feb 2011 20:36:02 · Top

That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
wildly): for bars 9-16:

9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH

No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at least
not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.

Mike Briggs

1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
+1 608 835 0914 (voice)
+1 608 237 2379 (fax)

________________________________
From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.

Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:

9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face second corners.

13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face first corners.

The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:

9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
1cnr

Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness ;^)
I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
round«.

In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online version
of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on (after
vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure any
bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany ................. anselm@strathspey.org
Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
-- Raymond Kennington

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60395 · Lmae · 16 Feb 2011 21:00:55 · Top

Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes
says they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
Linda Mae

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norma or Mike Briggs" <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
wildly): for bars 9-16:

9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH

No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at
least
not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.

Mike Briggs

1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
+1 608 835 0914 (voice)
+1 608 237 2379 (fax)

________________________________
From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.

Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:

9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face second corners.

13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
other by the right shoulder face first corners.

The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:

9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
1cnr

Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness
;^)
I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
round«.

In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
version
of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
(after
vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure
any
bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
anselm@strathspey.org
Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
-- Raymond
Kennington

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60396 · Rod Downey · 16 Feb 2011 21:11:29 · Top

Hmm,

actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)

9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
down the set.

this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

regards

rod

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes says
> they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> Linda Mae
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
> That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> wildly): for bars 9-16:
>
> 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
>
> No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at
> least
> not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
>> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
>
> Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
>
> 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face second corners.
>
> 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face first corners.
>
> The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
>
> 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
> 1cnr
>
> Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness ;^)
> I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
> round«.
>
> In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> version
> of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
> sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> (after
> vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
> Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure any
> bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> -- Raymond Kennington
>
>

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60398 · Anselm Lingnau · 16 Feb 2011 21:50:34 · Top

Rod Downey wrote:

> this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
> was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
> manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

I did the dance for my Teacher's Certificate and there was never any doubt in
our collective minds that you passed your partner by the right shoulder prior
to the hello-goodbye setting.

We also agreed that if there had to be two-bar turns for the corners we would
prefer them to be on bars 10-11 and 14-15.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany ................. anselm@strathspey.org
When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers.
-- Oscar Wilde, *An Ideal Husband*

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60399 · Rosemary Coupe · 16 Feb 2011 22:17:15 · Top

It's still an exam dance. Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a bit more flexibility for the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing couple are starting them from the sidelines. Now corners dance only for 2 bars, and 1st corners must dance in very strongly on bar 9 as 1st couple surge across to meet them.
The newly revised edition of Book 10 says 1st C "pass each other by the right" on 15-16, but people often find that confusing as they aren't really passing, just slipping into place back to back. So the whole phrase is "turn RH, pass the long way, turn LH, slip into place."
Rosemary Coupe
Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Downey
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Hmm,

actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)

9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
down the set.

this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

regards

rod

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes says
> they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> Linda Mae
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
> That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> wildly): for bars 9-16:
>
> 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
>
> No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at
> least
> not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
>> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
>
> Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
>
> 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face second corners.
>
> 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face first corners.
>
> The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
>
> 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
> 1cnr
>
> Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness ;^)
> I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
> round«.
>
> In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> version
> of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
> sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> (after
> vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
> Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure any
> bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> -- Raymond Kennington
>
>

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60401 · Mike Briggs · 17 Feb 2011 00:02:37 · Top

Thank you, Rosemary. As a former librarian I am fascinated by the RSCDS's
(apparent) practice of silent emendation (making changes in later editions
without explaining why). I promise to say no more about General Stuart. No GS
redux redux redux.

Mike Briggs


1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
+1 608 835 0914 (voice)
+1 608 237 2379 (fax)

________________________________
From: Rosemary Coupe <rcoupe@shaw.ca>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 3:17:15 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

It's still an exam dance. Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a
bit more flexibility for the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing
couple are starting them from the sidelines. Now corners dance only for 2 bars,
and 1st corners must dance in very strongly on bar 9 as 1st couple surge across
to meet them.

The newly revised edition of Book 10 says 1st C "pass each other by the right"
on 15-16, but people often find that confusing as they aren't really passing,
just slipping into place back to back. So the whole phrase is "turn RH, pass the
long way, turn LH, slip into place."
Rosemary Coupe
Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Downey
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Hmm,

actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)

9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
down the set.

this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

regards

rod

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes
says

> they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> Linda Mae
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
> That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> wildly): for bars 9-16:
>
> 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
>
> No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at
> least
> not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
>> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
>
> Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
>
> 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face second corners.
>
> 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face first corners.
>
> The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
>
> 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
> 1cnr
>
> Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness
;^)
> I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
> round«.
>
> In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> version
> of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
> sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> (after
> vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
> Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure
any
> bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> -- Raymond Kennington
>
>

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60402 · Brian Charlton · 17 Feb 2011 02:36:18 · Top

Hello All,

When I was doing my teaching Certificate in the early '90s, we had a lot of
discussion about bars 9-16 of this dance.

My book 10, which was dated 1935, had the bars broken up into 9-10 for the
right hand turn, 11-12 for passing shoulders and 13-16 which just said
"First man turns secod woman by left hand while First woman turns third man
by the left hand. I have a copy of a later version stuck into the book,
which is similarly unhelpful as far as how the turns with corners should be
done; i.e. "9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing
each other by the right shoulder face second corners. 13-16 1st couple turn
second corners with left hands then passing each other by the right shoulder
face second corners." Our debate was about for how many bars the corners
should dance, but we were finally instructed that the Examiners would expect
the turns to be completed in two bars.

The current revision breaks it up into 2 bar phrases and is specific about
shoulder passing..

It is interesting that I have a tape prepared by Mrs Florence Lesslie for
the benefit of Teaching Certificate candidates in the 1970s, where she
specifically recommends that the corners use four bars as they "would have
to come to a sudden stop". (Florence Lesslie was an Examiner in Scotland
before she migrated to New Zealand in the late '60's and carried out
examinations in Australasia thereafter - she was in Sydney in 1969 as well
as later.) I must say that, personally, I agree with her and also, to me, it
is more satisfying to balance the movement by making both corner turns 4
bars (release hands at the end of bar 3) and passing by the left shoulder to
face corners for the setting to corners and partner.

Brian Charlton,
Sydney, Australia

On 17 February 2011 10:02, Norma or Mike Briggs <briggslaw@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thank you, Rosemary. As a former librarian I am fascinated by the RSCDS's
> (apparent) practice of silent emendation (making changes in later editions
> without explaining why). I promise to say no more about General Stuart.
> No GS
> redux redux redux.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rosemary Coupe <rcoupe@shaw.ca>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 3:17:15 PM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> It's still an exam dance. Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing
> a
> bit more flexibility for the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that
> dancing
> couple are starting them from the sidelines. Now corners dance only for 2
> bars,
> and 1st corners must dance in very strongly on bar 9 as 1st couple surge
> across
> to meet them.
>
> The newly revised edition of Book 10 says 1st C "pass each other by the
> right"
> on 15-16, but people often find that confusing as they aren't really
> passing,
> just slipping into place back to back. So the whole phrase is "turn RH,
> pass the
> long way, turn LH, slip into place."
> Rosemary Coupe
> Vancouver
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rod Downey
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
>
>
>
> Hmm,
>
> actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
> They say (2008)
>
> 9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
> 1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
> bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
> down the set.
>
> this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
> was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
> manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.
>
>
> regards
>
> rod
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> > From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> > Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
> >
> > Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes
> says
>
> > they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> > Linda Mae
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> > <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> > To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
> >
> >
> > That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> > wildly): for bars 9-16:
> >
> > 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> > 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> > 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
> >
> > No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye,
> at
> > least
> > not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
> >
> > Mike Briggs
> >
> > 1519 Storytown Road
> > Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> > +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> > +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> > To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
> >
> > Mike Briggs wrote:
> >
> >> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
> >> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
> >
> > Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
> >
> > 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> > other by the right shoulder face second corners.
> >
> > 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing
> each
> > other by the right shoulder face first corners.
> >
> > The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
> >
> > 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to
> face
> > 1cnr
> >
> > Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib
> blindness
> ;^)
> > I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short
> way
> > round«.
> >
> > In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> > version
> > of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib.
> This
> > sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> > (after
> > vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the
> cribs.
> > Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm
> sure
> any
> > bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
> >
> > Anselm
> > --
> > Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> > anselm@strathspey.org
> > Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> > -- Raymond
> Kennington
> >
> >
>

Book archeology

Message 60408 · e.ferguson · 17 Feb 2011 12:23:40 · Top

On 16 Feb 2011 at 15:02, Norma or Mike Briggs wrote:

> Thank you, Rosemary. As a former librarian I am fascinated by the
> RSCDS's (apparent) practice of silent emendation (making changes
> in later editions without explaining why).

It's worse than that. The RSCDS not only did and does "surreptitious
emendation" [thanks for that beautiful word], but does not even say
anywhere whether changes have been made. The only way to find out is
to compare printings character by character. And as editions and
printings used to carry no identification, it is often hard to tell
if two apparently identical copies of any book(let) are from the same
printing or not.

I have still not given up hope that some librarian or archivist with
archaeological leanings will one day sort all this out. Any
volunteers?

Happy dancing (to the most recent text, please (;>) )

Eric


--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3, 3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: +31 30-2673638

Book archeology

Message 60409 · Jim Healy · 17 Feb 2011 12:54:51 · Top

Greetings!

Eric acknowledges and then glosses over the biggest single obstacle to his archeology proposal. We have no idea how many printings or publishings or corrections of Books there may have been. In the brief period that I was Archivist, I started a collection of every variant and edition of each book that I could find and the present Archivist has continued with that. But, 'new' printings, particularly of Books 1-12 keep being sent in. In the case of the earlier books, the placing within the series can usually be fixed as there is a listing of the then current Executive Council in the back of the book. However, it is rare for these variations to be dated, other than the original date, and the minutes of the relevant committees never refer to reprints or even corrections and only, occasionally, to revisions.

But to me the more important question is why does it matter? The underlying premiss is that the Society 'changed' the dance. That entails a belief that dancers danced exactly what was written. That is, in my opinion, a fallacy. Dance descriptions have always been there as indications within a framework of standards but whether you turned in General Stuart in 2 bars or 4 bars was very proabably a matter of where you learned the dance, the people you regularly danced with and probably, the mood you were in. The obsession, and I use that word advisedly, with absolutes is a function of attempting to turn a social activity into a performing art. All agree that if the dance is for performance, then the team has to dance it consistently. I would suggest that is the problem with General Stuart. It became an exam dance and had to be made 'consistent' so the words became ever more perscriptive. The only time I have ever turned in two bars as a corner was when I did my certificate. On the social dance floor I contine to turn in four bars which meets my principal criterion for SCD - elegance above all.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

_________________________________________________________________________

When we come to be instructed by philosophers, we must bring the old light of common sense along with us, and by it judge of the new light which the philosopher communicates. Thomas Reid, 1710-1796

> From: e.ferguson@antenna.nl
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:23:40 +0100
> Subject: Book archeology (was: General Stuart redux redux)
>
> On 16 Feb 2011 at 15:02, Norma or Mike Briggs wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Rosemary. As a former librarian I am fascinated by the
> > RSCDS's (apparent) practice of silent emendation (making changes
> > in later editions without explaining why).
>
> It's worse than that. The RSCDS not only did and does "surreptitious
> emendation" [thanks for that beautiful word], but does not even say
> anywhere whether changes have been made. The only way to find out is
> to compare printings character by character. And as editions and
> printings used to carry no identification, it is often hard to tell
> if two apparently identical copies of any book(let) are from the same
> printing or not.
>
> I have still not given up hope that some librarian or archivist with
> archaeological leanings will one day sort all this out. Any
> volunteers?
>
> Happy dancing (to the most recent text, please (;>) )
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> --
> Eric T. Ferguson,
> van Reenenweg 3, 3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
> tel: +31 30-2673638
>
>

Book archeology

Message 60410 · Jim Healy · 17 Feb 2011 12:59:11 · Top

ps. I have just spoken to the archivist at HQ. As an example, the Archive currently holds 16 different 'variant in some degree' copies of Book 2

_________________________________________________________________________

When we come to be instructed by philosophers, we must bring the old light of common sense along with us, and by it judge of the new light which the philosopher communicates. Thomas Reid, 1710-1796

> From: jimhealy@hotmail.com
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: RE: Book archeology (was: General Stuart redux redux)
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:54:51 +0000
>
>
> Greetings!
>
> Eric acknowledges and then glosses over the biggest single obstacle to his archeology proposal. We have no idea how many printings or publishings or corrections of Books there may have been. In the brief period that I was Archivist, I started a collection of every variant and edition of each book that I could find and the present Archivist has continued with that. But, 'new' printings, particularly of Books 1-12 keep being sent in. In the case of the earlier books, the placing within the series can usually be fixed as there is a listing of the then current Executive Council in the back of the book. However, it is rare for these variations to be dated, other than the original date, and the minutes of the relevant committees never refer to reprints or even corrections and only, occasionally, to revisions.
>
> But to me the more important question is why does it matter? The underlying premiss is that the Society 'changed' the dance. That entails a belief that dancers danced exactly what was written. That is, in my opinion, a fallacy. Dance descriptions have always been there as indications within a framework of standards but whether you turned in General Stuart in 2 bars or 4 bars was very proabably a matter of where you learned the dance, the people you regularly danced with and probably, the mood you were in. The obsession, and I use that word advisedly, with absolutes is a function of attempting to turn a social activity into a performing art. All agree that if the dance is for performance, then the team has to dance it consistently. I would suggest that is the problem with General Stuart. It became an exam dance and had to be made 'consistent' so the words became ever more perscriptive. The only time I have ever turned in two bars as a corner was when I did my certificate. On the social dance floor I contine to turn in four bars which meets my principal criterion for SCD - elegance above all.
>
> Jim Healy
> Perth, Scotland
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
> When we come to be instructed by philosophers, we must bring the old light of common sense along with us, and by it judge of the new light which the philosopher communicates. Thomas Reid, 1710-1796
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: e.ferguson@antenna.nl
> > To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:23:40 +0100
> > Subject: Book archeology (was: General Stuart redux redux)
> >
> > On 16 Feb 2011 at 15:02, Norma or Mike Briggs wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you, Rosemary. As a former librarian I am fascinated by the
> > > RSCDS's (apparent) practice of silent emendation (making changes
> > > in later editions without explaining why).
> >
> > It's worse than that. The RSCDS not only did and does "surreptitious
> > emendation" [thanks for that beautiful word], but does not even say
> > anywhere whether changes have been made. The only way to find out is
> > to compare printings character by character. And as editions and
> > printings used to carry no identification, it is often hard to tell
> > if two apparently identical copies of any book(let) are from the same
> > printing or not.
> >
> > I have still not given up hope that some librarian or archivist with
> > archaeological leanings will one day sort all this out. Any
> > volunteers?
> >
> > Happy dancing (to the most recent text, please (;>) )
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Eric T. Ferguson,
> > van Reenenweg 3, 3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
> > tel: +31 30-2673638
> >
> >
>

Book archeology

Message 60411 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Feb 2011 14:40:02 · Top

Jim Healy wrote:

> Dance descriptions have always been there as indications within a
> framework of standards but whether you turned in General Stuart in 2 bars
> or 4 bars was very proabably a matter of where you learned the dance, the
> people you regularly danced with and probably, the mood you were in. The
> obsession, and I use that word advisedly, with absolutes is a function of
> attempting to turn a social activity into a performing art.

This of course prompts the question of why the books got tweaked that often to
begin with. 16 versions of Book 2!?

I think you can't have your cake and eat it. Either the Society is the
»governing body of SCD« and its descriptions are normative documents that
indicate that dances are supposed to be performed exactly however they are set
down in there. This is the underlying assumption behind the idea that SCD is
standardised world-wide, everybody does everything the same way¹, we are all a
big happy family, etc., etc. (which is generally considered a Good Thing). Or
else the Society's dance descriptions are just mere suggestions, and everyone
is free to do whatever they want after all. In that case, why have teaching
exams where we insist on candidates doing every little thing (including 2-bar
turns in General Stuart, even if nobody out there actually dances them
socially) by the book, and grade them down or even fail them outright if they
too obviously don't adhere to these »suggestions«?

I think what our forebears in the Society really wanted was the first but
without the drudge work of actually having to document all the changes and
tweaks that went down during the decades. Nobody will take issue with a change
that fixes an obvious typo, but I would suggest that a change in the text from
»turn second corner left hand« to »turn second corner left hand in two bars
and then pass to first corner giving right shoulders« deserves a little more
explanation (if only to say that this is the way the dance used to be taught
when the book was new and most everyone has been teaching it like that ever
since, so it makes sense to write it into the description).

Anyway, as Jim suggests it is probably not worth the trouble (except possibly
to PhD students looking for a thesis topic) to try and track all the changes
to RSCDS dance books through 80+ years of sloppy publication practice. We
should really be looking to the future. The Society is right now going over
all its older books to bring the descriptions into line with »standard
terminology«, doubtlessly applying more little tweaks all over the place once
again. In my opinion, the people in charge of that work should deliberately
try to break with tradition for once and actually *document* these tweaks if
they transcend an obvious rephrasing of the descriptions. It would make things
that much easier for teachers and other people in the field who need to work
with these dance descriptions, and who may be puzzled if they compare the new
books with older editions of the books that they happen to own.

Anselm

¹ We do allow certain pesky aberrations like the »Edinburgh style« of turning
with both hands in skip-change-of-step, but only because we haven't managed
to exterminate them during the last 80 years or so.
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany ................. anselm@strathspey.org
The world is full of people who said you only had to change a few strings.
-- Norman Ramsey

Book archeology

Message 60412 · Steve Wyrick · 17 Feb 2011 16:50:46 · Top

Agree with most of this, however it would be nice if TAC in particular would
add a footnote when they changed something, like "*Until 1994 our guidance
was for corners to turn in 4 bars. We now recommend 2-bar turns but if you
teach it this way there'll be somebody in your class that points out that
they've always done 4-bar turns." That would be beneficial for new teachers
in particular, as well as their long-suffering students! -Steve

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>wrote:

> Jim Healy wrote:
>
> > Dance descriptions have always been there as indications within a
> > framework of standards but whether you turned in General Stuart in 2 bars
> > or 4 bars was very proabably a matter of where you learned the dance, the
> > people you regularly danced with and probably, the mood you were in. The
> > obsession, and I use that word advisedly, with absolutes is a function of
> > attempting to turn a social activity into a performing art.
>
> This of course prompts the question of why the books got tweaked that often
> to
> begin with. 16 versions of Book 2!?
>
> I think you can't have your cake and eat it. Either the Society is the
> »governing body of SCD« and its descriptions are normative documents that
> indicate that dances are supposed to be performed exactly however they are
> set
> down in there. This is the underlying assumption behind the idea that SCD
> is
> standardised world-wide, everybody does everything the same way¹, we are
> all a
> big happy family, etc., etc. (which is generally considered a Good Thing).
> Or
> else the Society's dance descriptions are just mere suggestions, and
> everyone
> is free to do whatever they want after all. In that case, why have teaching
> exams where we insist on candidates doing every little thing (including
> 2-bar
> turns in General Stuart, even if nobody out there actually dances them
> socially) by the book, and grade them down or even fail them outright if
> they
> too obviously don't adhere to these »suggestions«?
>
> I think what our forebears in the Society really wanted was the first but
> without the drudge work of actually having to document all the changes and
> tweaks that went down during the decades. Nobody will take issue with a
> change
> that fixes an obvious typo, but I would suggest that a change in the text
> from
> »turn second corner left hand« to »turn second corner left hand in two bars
> and then pass to first corner giving right shoulders« deserves a little
> more
> explanation (if only to say that this is the way the dance used to be
> taught
> when the book was new and most everyone has been teaching it like that ever
> since, so it makes sense to write it into the description).
>
> Anyway, as Jim suggests it is probably not worth the trouble (except
> possibly
> to PhD students looking for a thesis topic) to try and track all the
> changes
> to RSCDS dance books through 80+ years of sloppy publication practice. We
> should really be looking to the future. The Society is right now going over
> all its older books to bring the descriptions into line with »standard
> terminology«, doubtlessly applying more little tweaks all over the place
> once
> again. In my opinion, the people in charge of that work should deliberately
> try to break with tradition for once and actually *document* these tweaks
> if
> they transcend an obvious rephrasing of the descriptions. It would make
> things
> that much easier for teachers and other people in the field who need to
> work
> with these dance descriptions, and who may be puzzled if they compare the
> new
> books with older editions of the books that they happen to own.
>
> Anselm
>
> ¹ We do allow certain pesky aberrations like the »Edinburgh style« of
> turning
> with both hands in skip-change-of-step, but only because we haven't
> managed
> to exterminate them during the last 80 years or so.
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> The world is full of people who said you only had to change a few strings.
> -- Norman
> Ramsey
>

--
Steve Wyrick -- Walnut Creek, California

Book archeology

Message 60419 · e.ferguson · 18 Feb 2011 02:50:59 · Top

On 17 Feb 2011 at 11:54, Jim Healy wrote:

> Eric acknowledges and then glosses over the biggest single
> obstacle to his archeology proposal. We have no idea how many
> printings or publishings or corrections of Books there may have
> been. In the brief period that I was Archivist, I started a
> collection of every variant and edition of each book that I could
> find and the present Archivist has continued with that. But, 'new'
> printings, particularly of Books 1-12 keep being sent in. In the
> case of the earlier books, the placing within the series can
> usually be fixed as there is a listing of the then current
> Executive Council in the back of the book. However, it is rare for
> these variations to be dated, other than the original date, and
> the minutes of the relevant committees never refer to reprints or
> even corrections and only, occasionally, to revisions.

I expect we are all aware of these facts. That is why I do not call
the job "a librarian's task" but speak of "archaeology" (where nobody
can know beforehand how many inscriptions will turn up).

Is collating these texts important? Not really, for current dancing;
who cares about small variatiojs? But the Society (vide exams and
Summer School classes) attaches importance to precision in executing
dances according to the descriptions. So it IS important for any
teacher (and crib-writer) to know if the book they have in hand
carries the most authoritative text. The RSCDS should ensure
everyone has easy access to the "current" version. The obvious
answer: make all "current descriptions" accessible online.

Any group remains free of course to dance differently from the
"authorised version"; that is quite a separate issue. If a variant
becomes more loved than the original, the Society might one day even
think of changing the description to follow the dancers' choice..

Happy dancing,

Eric

--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3, 3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: +31 30-2673638

Book archeology

Message 60421 · Martin Campoveja · 18 Feb 2011 10:02:51 · Top

Is it not about time to introduce wording such as :
The corner dancers may then use the next two bars to dance into place
(fitting their movement to the musical phrasing).
This would avoid the possible discomfort of coming to a dead stop in Gen
Stuart, but also in all those dances where the last figure is a "six-bar"
reel that leaves the corners in mid air.
It could apply to other figures where it makes no difference to anyone else
in the set, but where you would get the pleasure of dancing to the music,
not just to the book.
Martin

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60403 · Iain Boyd · 17 Feb 2011 06:12:02 · Top

Rosemary Coupe wrote -

Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a bit more flexibility for
the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing couple are starting them
from the sidelines.

We here in New Zealand always (at least from the 1960s until relatively
recently) danced the turns in four bars. I continue to do so.

Someone (in the old hierarchy) at sometime obviously decided that the
instructions were ambiguous and needed clarification. Thus, taking the four bar
instruction to mean 'turn for two bars and pass for two bars'. Okay for first
couple, but, not very nice for corners!

Regards,

Iain Boyd

Postal Address -
P O Box 11-404

Wellington 6142
New Zealand

________________________________
From: Rosemary Coupe <rcoupe@shaw.ca>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Thu, 17 February, 2011 10:17:15 AM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

It's still an exam dance. Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a
bit more flexibility for the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing
couple are starting them from the sidelines. Now corners dance only for 2 bars,
and 1st corners must dance in very strongly on bar 9 as 1st couple surge across
to meet them.

The newly revised edition of Book 10 says 1st C "pass each other by the right"
on 15-16, but people often find that confusing as they aren't really passing,
just slipping into place back to back. So the whole phrase is "turn RH, pass the
long way, turn LH, slip into place."
Rosemary Coupe
Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Downey
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Hmm,

actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)

9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
down the set.

this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

regards

rod

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes
says

> they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> Linda Mae
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
> That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> wildly): for bars 9-16:
>
> 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
>
> No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye, at
> least
> not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
>> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
>
> Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
>
> 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face second corners.
>
> 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face first corners.
>
> The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
>
> 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to face
> 1cnr
>
> Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib blindness
;^)
> I usually try to remember this as »right, long way round, left, short way
> round«.
>
> In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> version
> of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib. This
> sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> (after
> vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the cribs.
> Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm sure
any
> bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> -- Raymond Kennington
>
>


General Stuart redux redux

Message 60404 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Feb 2011 10:14:22 · Top

Iain Boyd wrote:

> Someone (in the old hierarchy) at sometime obviously decided that the
> instructions were ambiguous and needed clarification. Thus, taking the four
> bar instruction to mean 'turn for two bars and pass for two bars'. Okay
> for first couple, but, not very nice for corners!

If anything, this is an argument against letting people make arbitrary changes
to the dance books without proper documentation and public review.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany ................. anselm@strathspey.org
There are only two kinds of languages: the kind everybody bitches about, and
the kind nobody uses. -- Bjarne Stroustrup, inventor of C++

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60414 · simon scott · 17 Feb 2011 17:20:49 · Top

I agree with both Rosemary and Iain, and presumably other. I've always
dances General Stuart, turn first corner right hand pass right shoulder,
second corner left hand, pass right shoulder to finish back to back with
partner. Corners dancing four bars. (since before the 1960s Iain)

For me, in cases like this, meaning 2 or 4 bars, where a variation will not
affect other dancers on the floor or significantly alter the dance itself, I
prefer to be guided by flow, graceful movement, enjoyment, and I must say,
what I have become used to.

Simon Scott
Vancouver

Rosemary Coupe wrote -

Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a bit more flexibility
for
the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing couple are starting
them
from the sidelines.

We here in New Zealand always (at least from the 1960s until relatively
recently) danced the turns in four bars. I continue to do so.

Someone (in the old hierarchy) at sometime obviously decided that the
instructions were ambiguous and needed clarification. Thus, taking the four
bar
instruction to mean 'turn for two bars and pass for two bars'. Okay for
first
couple, but, not very nice for corners!

Regards,

Iain Boyd

Postal Address -
P O Box 11-404

Wellington 6142
New Zealand

________________________________
From: Rosemary Coupe <rcoupe@shaw.ca>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Thu, 17 February, 2011 10:17:15 AM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

It's still an exam dance. Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing
a
bit more flexibility for the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that
dancing
couple are starting them from the sidelines. Now corners dance only for 2
bars,
and 1st corners must dance in very strongly on bar 9 as 1st couple surge
across
to meet them.

The newly revised edition of Book 10 says 1st C "pass each other by the
right"
on 15-16, but people often find that confusing as they aren't really
passing,
just slipping into place back to back. So the whole phrase is "turn RH, pass
the
long way, turn LH, slip into place."
Rosemary Coupe
Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Downey
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux

Hmm,

actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)

9-16 corners must dance in to the middle to meet the
1st couple on bars 9 and 13 the out to plces on
bars 10 and 14 releasing first couple to face up and
down the set.

this would indicate 2 bar turns to me. I seem to recall this
was once an exam dance, and I seem to recall, as per the
manual RR,LL. Certainly that's how it is done in NZ.

regards

rod

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, Lmae wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:00:55 -0800
> From: Lmae <lmae@imaginationprocessing.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Hmmm. Well, the RSCDS Manual says corners turn for 2 bars, and TAC Notes

says

> they turn for 4 bars, but no mention of which shoulder there either.
> Linda Mae
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norma or Mike Briggs"
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
>
> That's interesting. My copy of Book 10 (c. USA 1935) says (abbreviating
> wildly): for bars 9-16:
>
> 9-10 1st C turn 2nd corners RH
> 11-12 1st C pass RSh to face 1st corners
> 13-16 1st C turn 1st corners LH
>
> No mention of which shoulder 1st C pass to get ready for hello-goodbye,
at
> least
> not in my edition. RSh makes perfect sense to me, though.
>
> Mike Briggs
>
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA
> +1 608 835 0914 (voice)
> +1 608 237 2379 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:07:16 AM
> Subject: Re: General Stuart redux redux
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>> Not sure who(m) to tell about this, but the DanceData crib for General
>> Stuart's Reel has turn R, pass R, turn L, pass R at bars 9-16.
>
> Here's what my issue of RSCDS Book 10 has to say:
>
> 9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each
> other by the right shoulder face second corners.
>
> 13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing
each
> other by the right shoulder face first corners.
>
> The crib on the page for General Stuart's Reel says:
>
> 9-16 1C turn 1cnr RH and pass RSh ; turn 2cnr LH and pass RSh to
face
> 1cnr
>
> Looks OK to me, unless I'm afflicted with a severe case of crib
blindness
;^)
> I usually try to remember this as >right, long way round, left, short
way
> round<.
>
> In general, if you have any issues with any of the cribs in the online
> version
> of DanceData, submit a comment using the button near the actual crib.
This
> sends the comment to me in a format that makes it convenient to pass on
> (after
> vetting) to Eric Ferguson, who we have to thank for the bulk of the
cribs.
> Eric is absolutely religious about getting his cribs correct, so I'm
sure
any
> bona-fide errors will be cleared up ASAP after he hears about them.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Mainz/Mayence, Germany .................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Act in haste and repent at leisure: Code too soon and debug forever.
> -- Raymond
Kennington
>
>


General Stuart redux redux

Message 60415 · Volleyballjerry · 17 Feb 2011 17:21:40 · Top

In a message dated 2/16/2011 9:12:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
iain_boyd_scd@yahoo.co.nz writes:

Rosemary Coupe wrote -

Years ago the corners danced for 4 bars, allowing a bit more flexibility
for
the phrasing of the turns, given the fact that dancing couple are
starting them
from the sidelines.

We here in New Zealand always (at least from the 1960s until relatively
recently) danced the turns in four bars. I continue to do so.

Someone (in the old hierarchy) at sometime obviously decided that the
instructions were ambiguous and needed clarification. Thus, taking the
four bar
instruction to mean 'turn for two bars and pass for two bars'. Okay for
first
couple, but, not very nice for corners!

Regards,

Iain Boyd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have to agree with both Iain and Rosemary in a sense. I started dancing
in the late seventies and teaching not too long thereafter, and though I
have to admit, perhaps unlike these two, to having, as best I can recall,
always thought of a two-bar turn for corners in this circumstance as the
RSCDS default unless a four-bar turn was prescribed in the instructions, I have
nonetheless always found the four-bar turn to make more sense and to be
more danceable. The two-bar turn makes the corner feel like he/she is being
rather flung around with limited opportunity to do proper steps (on the
dance floor it sometimes alas degenerates into not much more than a corner
pivot). If it is doable when prescribed, as in the Earl of Mansfield, I have
often wondered why it could not be done this more satisfying and graceful
way by default, rather than the reverse. John Drewry's dance The Hazel Tree
comes also to mind, in which the same corners turn one of the dancing
couple RH and then immediately turn the other LH, and it is apparent that it so
much better having corners turn RH 4 bars and then turn LH back four bars
than having them turn 2, wait two, and turn 2 again.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60428 · mlamontbrown · 20 Feb 2011 16:14:21 · Top

I realise that this subject has been done to death, but as it gradually drifted into
a discussion on 2 bar versus 4 bar turns I thought I would point out the Technique
Section of the RSCDS website, which sometime proves useful in answering this and
similar queries.

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60429 · Pia Walker · 20 Feb 2011 17:00:07 · Top

Could we call this: General Stuart's reflux?

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: mlamontbrown [mailto:mlamontbrown@btopenworld.com]
Sent: 20 February 2011 15:14
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: General Stuart redux redux

I realise that this subject has been done to death, but as it gradually
drifted into a discussion on 2 bar versus 4 bar turns I thought I would
point out the Technique Section of the RSCDS website, which sometime proves
useful in answering this and similar queries.

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60400 · Chris Ronald · 16 Feb 2011 22:58:01 · Top

Rod wrote:

"actually this is not what the TAC notes say.
They say (2008)... [snip] ...this would indicate 2 bar turns to me."

Correct. But until 2008 TAC Notes were unambiguous. They said 4-bar turns.

I don't have the sources to hand but I also had to do the dance for my exam
and I still remember the discussion about this.

Obviously if you do the dance for an exam, you have to agree on what to do.
Otherwise, just go with the flow!

Chris, New York.

General Stuart redux redux

Message 60397 · Paula · 16 Feb 2011 21:45:30 · Top

I have Book 10, reprinted in 1994 which reads:

"9-12 1st couple turn first corners with right hands then passing each other by the right shoulder face second corners.

13-16 1st couple turn second corners with left hands then passing each other by the right shoulder face first corners."

My TAC Notes, fifth edition, 2008, say the following:

"9-16 Corners must dance into middle to meet 1st couple on bars 9 & 13, then out to places on bars 10 & 14 releasing 1st couple to face up and down the set."

This was a exam dance when I was working on my certificate in 1999 at Summer School in St.Andrews I was taught: turn right, pass right, turn left, pass right, two bars for the turns, corners come in for the turns so they occur inside the set.

Paula Jacobson
Aptos CA.
SF Branch

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