strathspey Archive: The Shepherd's Crook

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The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60233 · Andrew Smith · 20 Jan 2011 13:29:36 · Top

Reading the 'MacNab' book, 2007, the inference that I draw from the diagrams and the text is that the dance is performed facing the top of the room.

If this is so, do the dancers normally start somewhere in the middle of the room? This would be OK in a large ballroom, I suppose, but even then I would not feel comfortable. If one is performing in a limited space which does not have the room to dance down and up from the middle, but must perforce be at the top, surely one does not perform with one's back to the bulk of the audience?

Help, please.

Andrew Smith,

Bristol, UK.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60234 · Malcolm Austen · 20 Jan 2011 13:52:22 · Top

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:29:36 -0000, Andrew Smith <afsmith@talktalk.net>
wrote:

> Reading the 'MacNab' book, 2007, the inference that I draw from the
> diagrams and the text is that the dance is performed facing the top of
> the room.
>
> If this is so, do the dancers normally start somewhere in the middle of
> the room? This would be OK in a large ballroom, I suppose, but even then
> I would not feel comfortable. If one is performing in a limited space
> which does not have the room to dance down and up from the middle, but
> must perforce be at the top, surely one does not perform with one's back
> to the bulk of the audience?

It's a show dance, be flexible!

I've certainly danced it starting at the top, backs tight to the stage,
and then doing 4 down, 3 up, 1 down so as to end in a sensible position
for the show.

Malcolm.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60235 · elizabeth mchardy · 20 Jan 2011 15:53:25 · Top

Andrew

You can alter the travelling to finish where you want to be dancing as long you dance the correct no of steps

Elizabeth
Ayr

> From: afsmith@talktalk.net
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: The Shepherd's Crook
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:29:36 +0000
>
> Reading the 'MacNab' book, 2007, the inference that I draw from the diagrams and the text is that the dance is performed facing the top of the room.
>
> If this is so, do the dancers normally start somewhere in the middle of the room? This would be OK in a large ballroom, I suppose, but even then I would not feel comfortable. If one is performing in a limited space which does not have the room to dance down and up from the middle, but must perforce be at the top, surely one does not perform with one's back to the bulk of the audience?
>
> Help, please.
>
> Andrew Smith,
>
> Bristol, UK.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60238 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 20 Jan 2011 17:36:42 · Top

The McNab dances are demonstration dances and not meant for the ballroom or social dancing.
There is some question as to their authenticity, since no one as ever seen any source material on them
or evidence that they had ever been performed prior to Mary Isdale´s use in demos. C Stewart Smith
told me that he felt that she simply made them of of bits and pieces, including dances from other
countries she had observed as a judge at international folk dance festivals.

As a demo, Sheperd´s Crook, is meant to be performed facing an audience, not the music. In the early 70´s,
when I was country dance director of the Scottish Dance Ensemble (Los Angeles, an afiliated group at the
time), on the stage, we had a treesome facing the audience, if in a ball room, we had three threesomes, facing
front, and sides, with our backs to the music.

The concept of the "top" being the music, is an RSCDS invention, as is evidenced by several ball rooms
where the musicians had a box or gallery at the back or at the side (Blair Atoll and the Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh).
As in English counry dancing, the "top" was the presence, a raised platform upon which the relivant VIP and associates sat.
Illustrations, such as are found in Playford, Rutherford, etc. often indicate the musicians as playing in a corner of the room.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60239 · Mike Mudrey · 20 Jan 2011 17:45:22 · Top

-----Original Message-----
From: GOSS9@telefonica.net [mailto:GOSS9@telefonica.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:37 AM
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: The Shepherd's Crook

The McNab dances are demonstration dances and not meant for the ballroom or social dancing.
There is some question as to their authenticity, since no one as ever seen any source material on them or evidence that they had ever been performed prior to Mary Isdale´s use in demos. C Stewart Smith told me that he felt that she simply made them of of bits and pieces, including dances from other countries she had observed as a judge at international folk dance festivals.

As a demo, Sheperd´s Crook, is meant to be performed facing an audience, not the music. In the early 70´s, when I was country dance director of the Scottish Dance Ensemble (Los Angeles, an afiliated group at the time), on the stage, we had a treesome facing the audience, if in a ball room, we had three threesomes, facing front, and sides, with our backs to the music.

The concept of the "top" being the music, is an RSCDS invention, as is evidenced by several ball rooms where the musicians had a box or gallery at the back or at the side (Blair Atoll and the Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh).
As in English counry dancing, the "top" was the presence, a raised platform upon which the relivant VIP and associates sat.
Illustrations, such as are found in Playford, Rutherford, etc. often indicate the musicians as playing in a corner of the room.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60245 · Rosemary Coupe · 20 Jan 2011 22:21:31 · Top

Richard Goss writes,
"The McNab dances are demonstration dances and not meant for the ballroom or social dancing.
There is some question as to their authenticity, since no one as ever seen any source material on them
or evidence that they had ever been performed prior to Mary Isdale´s use in demos. C Stewart Smith
told me that he felt that she simply made them of of bits and pieces, including dances from other
countries she had observed as a judge at international folk dance festivals."


Yes, Mrs MacNab had a flair for the theatrical. She did indeed develop her dances for performance through a kind of workshop process; people who danced with her groups in Vancouver confirm this. In doing so, she followed the tradition of 19th and early 20th century dance teachers in Scotland who worked with traditional material and shaped it for public performance. D.G. MacLennan comes especially to mind; these people were running businesses, as their ads in The Scotsman make clear. Step dance groups who perform still do this kind of thing--ours certainly does!


However, that doesn’t mean that all the MacNab dances lack a basis in traditional Scottish dance forms. I’ll just give one example to illustrate the way in which she combined her instinct for effective display with her interest in transmitting traditional dance forms, in this case the dramatic dances of the western isles. When she visited Barra, Mrs MacNab learned a dance from L McNeil of Castlebay which she published as “McNeil of Barra.” Here 6 women stand in two lines facing each other. A single man in the centre dances Fling steps while the women dance figures around him. The dance ends with 16 high cuts performed by the man, presumably to the awed wonder of the women. Of course, this was a superb opportunity to exhibit the talents of a star male pupil, and Mrs MacNab just happened to have one; his name was Billy Kerr.


When the Fletts visited Barra in 1953, they found an 88-year-old piper, also named McNeil (there were plenty of McNeils on Barra!). He remembered some details of a dance called “An long Bharrach” or “The Barra Ship” in which 6 dancers form the outline of a ship and the 7th, who represents the mast, dances with each in turn. Of course Mrs. MacNab changed the meaning of the dance (and the way she dressed up her dance descriptions with romantic mythology is embarrassing) but the physical basis is there.


Sorry, but I also have to take issue with the comments about Emmerson and Thurston. Emmerson actually makes derogatory comments about Mary Isdale MacNab. Hugh Thurston was as far as it’s possible to be from “using the current party line.” At the cost of making this posting far too long, I’m going to quote an account written by Marianne Taylor about a story told by Stewart Smith (yes, I know, secondhand evidence…). It concerns Miss Milligan’s visit to Vancouver in 1963 when she stayed with the Thurstons. Hugh had great personal respect for Miss M but also, I believe, great intellectual honesty:

"Miss Milligan and Stewart Smith are flying to Vancouver, where she intends to give Dr. Thurston a piece of her mind about his recently published comments on the RSCDS research techniques and their way of figuring out Scottish dances. They get to Vancouver; Hugh meets them; his wife Nina gives them a lovely meal and then Hugh and Miss M. go into his study, while Stewart sits outside, chewing his nails and listening for sounds of conflict. After about an hour, Hugh and Miss M. emerge, all smiles, and Miss M. trumpets, 'Dr. Thurston and I have agreed to disagree!' "

Hugh Thurston’s book Scotland’s Dances, published in 1954, is dated now--manuscript sources like David Young and McGill have come to light since he wrote--but it’s the first modern book to take an analytical approach to the subject.

Finally, much as I hate arguments from authority, I’m going to finish with one and point out the respect which Tom and Joan Flett show to Mrs. MacNab. She deserves it.

Rosemary Coupe

Vancouver

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60243 · Jan Rudge · 20 Jan 2011 19:48:46 · Top

> Reading the 'MacNab' book, 2007, the inference that I draw from the diagrams and the text is that the dance is performed facing the top of the room.

I have, on the odd occasion, seen The Shepherd's Crook on dance programmes in London - always seems a bit weird to me but it's similar to having, say, a Foursome on the programme, only less strenuous! On those occasions, as there's no "audience" and it's not a performance as such, it's done with all the sets facing the band/the top of the room, with the front sets up near the top, roughly where the 1st couple of the top set would normally be. The sets are unlikely to fill the room so there is always enough room to turn round and dance towards the back of the hall per the instructions.

However it's also a regular part of our dem team's repertoire, and we tweak it as required for any given room/occasion. Obviously we would position ourselves to face as much of the audience for as much of the time as possible, so it all depends where your audience is, and in particular whether you have a "back" where there is no audience at all. We often miss out the first 8 bars altogether, especially if the floorspace is restricted. Otherwise, we might use the 8 bars to dance into position, or else dance forwards and back instead. If space allows and we have two sets, we would usually place them back-to-back or in an inverted V shape.

Regards,

Jan
Beaconsfield, UK
RSCDS London Branch

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60244 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 20 Jan 2011 20:51:25 · Top

Your foursome analogy does not work since there is no top, bottom, or progression in this dance. If there is a top, as in music, this means only that of the four dancers only two have the music to their right shoulder, and two to ther left, at the same time, this is also true of the bottom of the room. As a highland dance, the music is usually in the corner, or side, by this analoty. The focus of the dance is the judges, who are usualy on the same side as the audience, e.g. away from the music. I learned McNab dances from C Stewart Smith, as a member of the dem team he was teachingt. Some were popular on local country dance programs, as sort of a one-up-man-ship advanced item to separate the sheep from the goats - Bonnie Anne, comes to mind in that the majority of the choreography matches no pre McNab or pre MissM dancing in Scotland. Hugh Thurston, was one of the early McNab supporters, and even acted as her interpreter while she was teaching in Vancouver. As a part of my reaearch, I had long, and sometimes documented, discussions with both he and Emmerson, both academics in other fields. Both admitted, based on what they knew at the time I spoke to them, there is much in their publications (specificly Emmerson´s "Scotland Through Countrydances"), that they would no longer support, as they were writing through a McNab and MissM filter, instead of going to original sources, namely thay were simply writing interesting books for the market, using the current party line.

A bit of history here. The McNab dances ave a rather unusual history. When they came out, Miss M made a big deal about them, by the time I was dancing, but before my teacher´s training, they, along with those of Jamieson were strictly non RSCDS approved, though for different reasions, McNabb for reasons of authenticity, and Jamieson because of internal Glasgow-Edinburgh RSCDS politics. After the death of Miss M, the Jamieson dances were allowed back into the canon, and for good reason, e.g. they were more authentic then the majority of RSCDS dances, since they were living dances collected as performed, and not dead dances found in some book. In the case of the McNabb dances, these are simply the choreographies made up by a single person, and have no historical claim to any authenticity as in the aims of the society "country dances as danced in Scotland" since there is no record of them having existed in Scotland, or even Canada, before McNabb produced them. At her death, rumor has it that her "documentation" ended up with her niece, Setorius, I seem to recall, then living in San Diego. Those of us doing research at the time, hoped that some light would be shed on the subject, but this did not happen. I presented, one of these at the St Andrews Summer School in the early 70´s, "Caller Herrin´". My source was a woman, who danced them on the stage as sort of an entract of films before there were talkies. Her source was McNabb, but the trail ended there. As far as the dance itself goes, it seems to be a 2/4 paraphrase of Scottish Lilt, set to the Gow tune, with a few steps, that, other then this dance, exist no were in any English, Irish, or Scottish choreographies or repertoire. Nice show piece, since the Gow tune has geographical references to Edinburgh New Town, where fishwives would have been peddling their goods in Gow´s time. But in conjunction with the dance, simple a piece of ersatz folk lore appealing to the gullable.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60246 · Jan Rudge · 20 Jan 2011 22:49:41 · Top

>> Your foursome analogy does not work since there is no top, bottom, or progression in this dance. If there is a top, as in music, this means only that of the four dancers only two have the music to their right shoulder, and two to ther left, at the same time, this is also true of the bottom of the room.

Yes, I was only comparing it with The Shepherd's Crook in that it's mainly seen as a demonstration dance (especially as it needs a some knowledge of highland steps) but it does pop up on a social dance programme now and again.

(And there's no progression in The Shepherd's Crook either as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't say there's a top and a bottom to it either - just a "front" and a "back" - top and bottom would refer to the hall, surely?)

Regards,

Jan
Beaconsfield, UK

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60248 · Andrew Smith · 21 Jan 2011 09:40:16 · Top

Thank you, Jan.

That was reassuring.

The discussion seemed to wander down some esoteric by-ways which while of
some interest were little help, other than to cause me to remember hearing
adult conversations along the lines of "They must have found another
tea-chest in Canada!" when yet another 'new' dance, probably more complex
than usual, was published. I think the 'origin myth' was that someone in
Canada had inherited/acquired a tea-chest full of papers from a Scots family
who had emigrated to Canada in the 19th century, and found that amongst them
were dance descriptions which were then being published.

Andrew Smith,

Bristol, UK.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Rudge" <jan.rudge@hotmail.co.uk>
To: "SCD news and discussion" <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: The Shepherd's Crook

> Reading the 'MacNab' book, 2007, the inference that I draw from the
> diagrams and the text is that the dance is performed facing the top of the
> room.

I have, on the odd occasion, seen The Shepherd's Crook on dance programmes
in London - always seems a bit weird to me but it's similar to having, say,
a Foursome on the programme, only less strenuous! On those occasions, as
there's no "audience" and it's not a performance as such, it's done with all
the sets facing the band/the top of the room, with the front sets up near
the top, roughly where the 1st couple of the top set would normally be. The
sets are unlikely to fill the room so there is always enough room to turn
round and dance towards the back of the hall per the instructions.

However it's also a regular part of our dem team's repertoire, and we tweak
it as required for any given room/occasion. Obviously we would position
ourselves to face as much of the audience for as much of the time as
possible, so it all depends where your audience is, and in particular
whether you have a "back" where there is no audience at all. We often miss
out the first 8 bars altogether, especially if the floorspace is restricted.
Otherwise, we might use the 8 bars to dance into position, or else dance
forwards and back instead. If space allows and we have two sets, we would
usually place them back-to-back or in an inverted V shape.

Regards,

Jan
Beaconsfield, UK
RSCDS London Branch

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60253 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 22 Jan 2011 15:59:34 · Top

Responding to …
Rosemary Coupe [2011/01/20 22:21:31]
Jan Rudge [2011/01/20 22:49:41]
Andrew Smith 2011/01/21 09:40:16]

I think these responders have missed my point, that by “Shepherd´s Crook”, not being a country dance it has no reason to follow current country dance conventions, e.g. having the music at the top.

Dance, besides being an art form is essentially a form of communication. So the question should be with whom are the dancers attempting to communicate. Certainly not each other in this case because a large part of the dance, involves no interaction between the dancers. Certainly not the musicians, who are simply providing the motivation through their music, so that leaves the spectators, who are either 90º opposite the musicians, or in a 270º arc not including the musicians. Therefore the dance should face the spectators.

Issues, such as this come up because of the nature of the Scottish country dance movement. Please note that I am not against the movement, I have enjoyed teaching, and still enjoy dancing Scottish country dances, and consider myself a loyal member of the Society.

Dance forms are an expression of the culture which gives rise to them. The problem comes when myths, such as the genesis ones associated with the founding of the RSCDS are believed to be true when they are not. Country dancing evolved to a point, and then died as a common social expression in dancing when couple dancing replaced set dancing.

Points to Miss Stewart for attempting to revive a lost cultural activity. Of course the task was impossible unless one considers the revival a new art form, which country dancing is today, divorced from its roots, and culture, and not performed by the majority of the population from which it evolved.

Like many religions based on myth, there is a priesthood, those whose identity is partially defined by the movement which they preach. The problem arises when this becomes a power trip, giving the some the right to define true doctrine from heresy.

There was a time when the West considered the earth the center of the uniform. This can be made to work when it comes to clocks, calendars, seasons, etc. But because the basic primise is false, the math gets complicated, and a lot of stress is created is in one of Gulliveer´s travels where there are two parties based on which end of a hard boilded eg should be cracked, when the fact is that it does not matter.

The same is true of Scottish country dancing, which as a 20c invention, enjoyed by thousands around the world, has the right to make its own rules, and evolve as it chooses. The problem with rules, when based on a false premise, is that like an earth centered universe, life gets complicated when various priesthoods compete for power based on a supposed truth that is essentially false. So discussions are often not based on logic, intelligence, but on questionable appeals to authority.

Miss M, was a dynamic leader who took over and put her stamp on a movement that many of us enjoy. However she was a person of her time, and neither a scholar or dance expert. So starting with what she thought she knew to be fact, she created the original dances of the RSCDS by recycling the work of the EFDSS or resurrecting dead dances from the notes available to her.

For those of us, trained by her, and her disciples, it is very difficult to step back, and look at the historical reality when we have been brainwashed in a context which she provided.

A quick example, from my research. As a certificated RSCDS dance teacher, I “knew” what an allemande was. So when I saw the word, I had a certain image in my mine when reading dance notes. Nevermind that the notes predated Miss M, who had invented the figure that existed in my mind. It was only when I evolved a computer analysis that applied various rules for music, progression, etc. that I realized that prior to Miss M, the only use of the term was a movement, that only used up only 2 bars of an 8 bar phrase. Once I realized this, returning to the original dance descriptions, that the punctuation of the description indicated that the allemande was never meant to be any more then that. So, all of a sudden all the RSCDS “down and back” + “allemande” was not 4+4+8 but 4+2+2, which fit with the 24 bar music, in the source, that we have edited to 32 bars to accommodate our myth.
[The same can be proven for other myths such as: left shoulder reels, pousettes, double triangles, strathspeys, etc. Repeating, there is nothing wrong with acting out a myth, as long as one realizes that it is a myth, and one enjoyes the action, and nothing wrong with evolving from a mythical beginning.

The problem comes when people do not accept that a myth is such, and then feel a need to defend the jmyth makers wile disregarding the evidence. In the Case of the MacNab dances, I enjoy some, to dance, others to teach, and the majority of others I avoid. These are merely composed exhibition dances invented by a dance teacher in her time and place. There is no documentation that they existed before here creation of them. However she was not following in 19 dance tradition because the tradition does not indicate dances designed to be watched, but as a social activity involving interaction between the dancers only, not an audience.

The problem with citing authorities such as Thurston and the Fletts, is that one is simply citing something that they wrote at a particular point in time. Unfortunately for the citation´s validity, is that time moves on and people gain more knowledge and change. High Thurston was both a disciple and and an interpreter of Mrs MacMab when she was alive, it was only later, free of her influence, and a little more sceptical of the RSCDS, that he began to question his earlier publication. The same goes for the Fletts, as one can see in their later publications under the EFDSS auspices. In fact, Mrs Flett was at a conference in the 70s where pretty much everything I posted here was presented by me in a paper, and she agreed with me in a discussion afterwards.

Noone is disrespecting Miss M or Mrs MacNab,, what is being disrespected is the myths of others based on their interpretation of them. Yes, Thurston and Emnmerson had intellectual honesty, because when they saw through the myth, they changed their interpretation. They were academics in their own fields, and respected their dance teachers for theirs. However, like children who grow up, they stopped believing in Santa and the tooth fairy, admitted their earlier mistakes and moved on. Unfortunately, some of the myths still exist, and people are still acting as if they were true.

Evidence suggests, that the top or head of the set, was orientted towards the “presence”, and not historicly towards the music. By the time the RSCDS arrived, the social aspect had also canged so that there was no longer a presence by which to align the dance, so the “music” took that place. Simple cultural evolution. If one looks at all the documentqation illustrating dances, I doubt if they will find that the music is the point of reference for the sets. I gave two examples, Blair Castle, and the Edinburgh Assembly rooms, where the musicians position was half way down one side of the long access of the room. By accepting the RSCDS myth, this presented a problem at the Assembly rooms since by alliging with the “music” the organization of the sets became more complicated the last time I attended. If we think of the “top” of the set as in the direction of Charlotte or St Andrew´s Squares, the room would comfortably be 3-4 sets wide by 6-8 sets long. However by changing the orientation to the “music” this means more lines of about 3 sets crosswise, so assuming the 18 sets, instead of three to round off at the bottom, there are now six, remembering that the sets were longer in those days. The same holds for Blair Castle. In ballrooms without a musicians platform, these performers are usually placed in a corner, or a balcony similar to a church choir loft, wich would place them at the bottom of the set, opposite to top of the set.

To Jan Rudge, “Sheperd´s Crook” is not just mainly seen as a demo, it is a demo, in that it lacks the elements necessary to make it a community social dance since the focus is outside the set. This does not apply to foursome, because, the focus remains between the 4 dancers, who at no time are found setting to empty space. The Crook, as a threesome would be the same, except in its choreographed version.

It is interesting that a fairly typical example of passive-aggressive expression has slipped into this post. I am referring to the use of the word “surely” in the quotation, “I wouldn´t say there´s a top and a bottom to it either … top and bottom would refer to the hall, <<surely>>?”. The writer is making the assumption that all right thinking orthodox membess of the faith would agree with her, when evidence suggests that this is not the case. Has no one ever heard of MissM´s famous, “dance to the bottom and fall apart”. Top and bottom are, or at least were in my day, pretty standard terms for positions within the set, not just the room. As a part of my archives are handy, I checked this out, keeping in mind that, as evidence of the Society´s lack of academic style, it is a bit tricky to determine order and authenticity when it comes to their publications.. At random, I pulled two copies of SCD Book 5.

I consider the older for the following reasons: copyright 1928, price 3/´ advertises books 1 to 14 at the back, suggesting that the copyright is invalid.
I consider the newer because although it has a 1924 copyright, it is listed as the 1964 revised edition, sold at 5/ ´but is over stamped as 25p, suggesting that it was sold in the 1970´s. It advertises books 1 to 17.
In 1, there is a foreward which states SCD “are usually danced in lines (Fig. A) the women having their right side to the dais (or the orchestra) …..” Note that the dais (e.g. presence as in England) is the norm, with “music” only an alternative. BTW the set has 5 couples. All of the 12 dances are each given one opening with the music on the right, and on the left, title, floor plan putting the “top” of the set to the left, dance description, then any notes. However in example 2, there is no foreward, but of the 12 dances, the illustration indicates the top of the set (not the room) with the word “top” printed just to the left of the first couple´s place. In other words, “top” was an accepted term as opposed to “bottom” by sometime between the publication of book 14 and book 17. So the use of the word “surely” is simply a vague way of saying that in the writer´s opinion, this is true, without actually taking responsibility for that opinion.

Richard Goss.

The Shepherd's Crook

Message 60256 · Jan Rudge · 22 Jan 2011 23:02:19 · Top

> To Jan Rudge, “Sheperd´s Crook” is not just mainly seen as a demo,
> it is a demo, in that it lacks the elements necessary to make it a
> community social dance since the focus is outside the set.

And yet it does appear (if only rarely) on social dance programmes.

On those occasions, in my experience, the placing of the many sets within the dancing space is different to when a single set is performing it for an audience. That is the issue I've been addressing, as it's what I understood Andrew to be asking about.

> It is interesting that a fairly typical example of passive-aggressive
> expression has slipped into this post. I am referring to the use of
> the word “surely” in the quotation, “I wouldn´t say there´s a top
> and a bottom to it either … top and bottom would refer to the hall,
> <<surely>>?”. The writer is making the assumption that all right thinking
> orthodox membess of the faith would agree with her, when evidence
> suggests that this is not the case. Has no one ever heard of MissM´s
> famous, “dance to the bottom and fall apart”. Top and bottom are,
> or at least were in my day, pretty standard terms for positions within
> the set, not just the room.

I hope it was clear that my comment was specifically about The Shepherd's Crook rather than about standard terms for positions within sets in general. Would you consider there to be top and bottom positions within a Shepherd's Crook set, and if so, please could you explain further?

Regards,

Jan
Beaconsfield, UK


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