strathspey Archive: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

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What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59697 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Oct 2010 01:18:16 · Top

We (Atlanta) do the turns as taught at Thistle School by Jimmie Hill, who was involved with the original devisers in creating the RSCDS version. I believe he advised the Aberdeen Branch team, that looks like him on the right hand side of the video closest to the band.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:27:26 -0400 (EDT)

Exactly my understanding, which makes me wonder why in the RSCDS Aberdeen demo video, the dancers were doing the "two women" version even when it was a man and woman doing the turn...

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Charlton <briangcharlton@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 6:11 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Hello,
>
>The RSCDS Manual, page 21, describes the forms of Tulloch turns. In summary,
>it says: Tto men take elbow grip with the other hand raised, two women take
>the hold described with the 'free' hand behind the back, a man an woman take
>the first hold, the man raising his free hand while the lady holds her
>skirt.
>
>I am sure 'local practice' varies a bit from this!
>
>Brian Charlton,
>Sydney, Australia
>
>On 30 October 2010 08:12, Lara Friedman-Shedlov
><lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Yes, I've been wondering about this. As I learned them, Tulloch turns are
>> turns are propelled pivot turns done by cupping one's hand around one's
>> partner's elbow with one hand and raising the other hand up in a
>> highland-style manner (or possibly holding a skirt, but either way it's a
>> one-handed turn). I've also done the two-handed turns where you take take
>> one hand behind your back (as described below) but I didn't know they were
>> called Tulloch turns. Can anyone shed any light on this terminology?
>>
>> Lara Friedman-Shedlov
>> Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
>>
>>
>> *****************************
>> Lara Friedman~Shedlov
>> lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com
>>
>> *****************************
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Pia <pia@intamail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm sticking my neck way out here - mostly because I don't do the tulloch
>> > turn very often - but is it not left arm resting on your own back
>> grasping
>> > your partners outstretched right hand and right arm outstretched to rest
>> on
>> > your partners back while holding their left hand?
>> >
>>
>>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59698 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 03:37:39 · Top

Well, that wouldn't be the first time an RSCDS certificated teacher taught something that contradicted the RSCDS manual...

It's particularly a problem with long-standing teachers who don't pay attention to updates to the standards. Not saying Jimmie did this, just saying it's a not-uncommon problem.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 7:18 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>We (Atlanta) do the turns as taught at Thistle School by Jimmie Hill, who was involved with the original devisers in creating the RSCDS version. I believe he advised the Aberdeen Branch team, that looks like him on the right hand side of the video closest to the band.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:27:26 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Exactly my understanding, which makes me wonder why in the RSCDS Aberdeen demo video, the dancers were doing the "two women" version even when it was a man and woman doing the turn...
>
>Lee
>
>Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Brian Charlton <briangcharlton@gmail.com>
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 6:11 PM
>>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>The RSCDS Manual, page 21, describes the forms of Tulloch turns. In summary,
>>it says: Tto men take elbow grip with the other hand raised, two women take
>>the hold described with the 'free' hand behind the back, a man an woman take
>>the first hold, the man raising his free hand while the lady holds her
>>skirt.
>>
>>I am sure 'local practice' varies a bit from this!
>>
>>Brian Charlton,
>>Sydney, Australia
>>
>>On 30 October 2010 08:12, Lara Friedman-Shedlov
>><lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I've been wondering about this. As I learned them, Tulloch turns are
>>> turns are propelled pivot turns done by cupping one's hand around one's
>>> partner's elbow with one hand and raising the other hand up in a
>>> highland-style manner (or possibly holding a skirt, but either way it's a
>>> one-handed turn). I've also done the two-handed turns where you take take
>>> one hand behind your back (as described below) but I didn't know they were
>>> called Tulloch turns. Can anyone shed any light on this terminology?
>>>
>>> Lara Friedman-Shedlov
>>> Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
>>>
>>>
>>> *****************************
>>> Lara Friedman~Shedlov
>>> lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com
>>>
>>> *****************************
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Pia <pia@intamail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I'm sticking my neck way out here - mostly because I don't do the tulloch
>>> > turn very often - but is it not left arm resting on your own back
>>> grasping
>>> > your partners outstretched right hand and right arm outstretched to rest
>>> on
>>> > your partners back while holding their left hand?
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59699 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Oct 2010 05:18:22 · Top

Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org, strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:37:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

Well, that wouldn't be the first time an RSCDS certificated teacher taught something that contradicted the RSCDS manual...

It's particularly a problem with long-standing teachers who don't pay attention to updates to the standards. Not saying Jimmie did this, just saying it's a not-uncommon problem.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 7:18 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>We (Atlanta) do the turns as taught at Thistle School by Jimmie Hill, who was involved with the original devisers in creating the RSCDS version. I believe he advised the Aberdeen Branch team, that looks like him on the right hand side of the video closest to the band.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:27:26 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Exactly my understanding, which makes me wonder why in the RSCDS Aberdeen demo video, the dancers were doing the "two women" version even when it was a man and woman doing the turn...
>
>Lee
>
>Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Brian Charlton <briangcharlton@gmail.com>
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 6:11 PM
>>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right-hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>The RSCDS Manual, page 21, describes the forms of Tulloch turns. In summary,
>>it says: Tto men take elbow grip with the other hand raised, two women take
>>the hold described with the 'free' hand behind the back, a man an woman take
>>the first hold, the man raising his free hand while the lady holds her
>>skirt.
>>
>>I am sure 'local practice' varies a bit from this!
>>
>>Brian Charlton,
>>Sydney, Australia
>>
>>On 30 October 2010 08:12, Lara Friedman-Shedlov
>><lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I've been wondering about this. As I learned them, Tulloch turns are
>>> turns are propelled pivot turns done by cupping one's hand around one's
>>> partner's elbow with one hand and raising the other hand up in a
>>> highland-style manner (or possibly holding a skirt, but either way it's a
>>> one-handed turn). I've also done the two-handed turns where you take take
>>> one hand behind your back (as described below) but I didn't know they were
>>> called Tulloch turns. Can anyone shed any light on this terminology?
>>>
>>> Lara Friedman-Shedlov
>>> Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
>>>
>>>
>>> *****************************
>>> Lara Friedman~Shedlov
>>> lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com
>>>
>>> *****************************
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Pia <pia@intamail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I'm sticking my neck way out here - mostly because I don't do the tulloch
>>> > turn very often - but is it not left arm resting on your own back
>>> grasping
>>> > your partners outstretched right hand and right arm outstretched to rest
>>> on
>>> > your partners back while holding their left hand?
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59700 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 05:38:00 · Top

Becky,

How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.

If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
>the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59703 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Oct 2010 05:53:12 · Top

"adapted by RSCDS" version:
12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in their left.
13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...

"original" version:
As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

Becky,

How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.

If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
>the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59708 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 13:59:01 · Top

Thanks! The RSCDS has made it clear that this is an adaptation of the standard tulloch turn by specifically describing the hold. However, I'm having a hard time comprehending how my partner's right hand is in my left, if we have linked left arms and our right hands are behind our backs. Wouldn't I have my partner's right hind in my right?

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:53 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>"adapted by RSCDS" version:
>12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in their left.
>13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...
>
>"original" version:
>As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>
>Becky,
>
>How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.
>
>If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.
>
>Lee
>
>Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
>>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>>
>>Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
>>the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
>>
>>Becky
>>
>>Becky Sager
>>Marietta GA USA
>> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>>
>>
>>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59709 · campbell · 30 Oct 2010 14:02:12 · Top

Lee, I certainly hope you WONT have your partner's right hind in your right
hand!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Fuell [mailto:fuell@mindspring.com]
Sent: 30 October 2010 01:59 PM
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Thanks! The RSCDS has made it clear that this is an adaptation of the
standard tulloch turn by specifically describing the hold. However, I'm
having a hard time comprehending how my partner's right hand is in my left,
if we have linked left arms and our right hands are behind our backs.
Wouldn't I have my partner's right hind in my right?

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59711 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 14:13:03 · Top

Oops! You're right - should've looked back at the figure on page 21 of the manual. Thanks for the catch.

Lee

-----Original Message-----
>From: Campbell Personal <campbell@tyler.co.za>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2010 8:02 AM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: RE: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Lee, I certainly hope you WONT have your partner's right hind in your right
>hand!!!!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lee Fuell [mailto:fuell@mindspring.com]
>Sent: 30 October 2010 01:59 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
>again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Thanks! The RSCDS has made it clear that this is an adaptation of the
>standard tulloch turn by specifically describing the hold. However, I'm
>having a hard time comprehending how my partner's right hand is in my left,
>if we have linked left arms and our right hands are behind our backs.
>Wouldn't I have my partner's right hind in my right?
>
>Lee
>
>Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59713 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Oct 2010 16:21:56 · Top

Lee - Personally I think the word linking is confusing as that is not what happens. (Incidentally - why set and link???) You slide the left arm between your partner's back and their right arm, and grasp their RH with your LH. I seem to recollect that with the partner I had at Thistle School I was grasping her RH from below, but with the partner I had in Atlanta, I took hers from above. Try it out at home - you have a dancing wife. All I have is a cat.
Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:59:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

Thanks! The RSCDS has made it clear that this is an adaptation of the standard tulloch turn by specifically describing the hold. However, I'm having a hard time comprehending how my partner's right hand is in my left, if we have linked left arms and our right hands are behind our backs. Wouldn't I have my partner's right hind in my right?

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:53 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>"adapted by RSCDS" version:
>12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in their left.
>13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...
>
>"original" version:
>As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.
>
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>
>Becky,
>
>How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.
>
>If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.
>
>Lee
>
>Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
>>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>>
>>Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
>>the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
>>
>>Becky
>>
>>Becky Sager
>>Marietta GA USA
>> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>>
>>
>>
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59716 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 19:04:42 · Top

Yes, indeed, Becky, which is why I was confused about the left hand in right thing this morning (before finishing my first cup of coffee, FWIW...). The word "linking" caused me to assume they meant the elbow grip as used in the men's and man + woman versions of the tulloch turn, which is why I was confused about the right hand in left grip.

Unfortunately, we are limited by the language - multiple meanings of the word "set" and "reel" just withing the SCD context, for example.

Cheers,

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2010 10:21 AM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Lee - Personally I think the word linking is confusing as that is not what happens. (Incidentally - why set and link???) You slide the left arm between your partner's back and their right arm, and grasp their RH with your LH. I seem to recollect that with the partner I had at Thistle School I was grasping her RH from below, but with the partner I had in Atlanta, I took hers from above. Try it out at home - you have a dancing wife. All I have is a cat.
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59717 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Oct 2010 20:04:51 · Top

Oh no, let's not even go there!
Buh bye for now, off to drive 4 and ahalf hours to dance, turn around and drive 4 and a half hours home
. Thought we'd have an extra hour tonight but that apparently doesn't happen here this year until next week.
Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:04:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

Yes, indeed, Becky, which is why I was confused about the left hand in right thing this morning (before finishing my first cup of coffee, FWIW...). The word "linking" caused me to assume they meant the elbow grip as used in the men's and man + woman versions of the tulloch turn, which is why I was confused about the right hand in left grip.

Unfortunately, we are limited by the language - multiple meanings of the word "set" and "reel" just withing the SCD context, for example.

Cheers,

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2010 10:21 AM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>Lee - Personally I think the word linking is confusing as that is not what happens. (Incidentally - why set and link???) You slide the left arm between your partner's back and their right arm, and grasp their RH with your LH. I seem to recollect that with the partner I had at Thistle School I was grasping her RH from below, but with the partner I had in Atlanta, I took hers from above. Try it out at home - you have a dancing wife. All I have is a cat.
>Becky
>
>Becky Sager
>Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
>learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59730 · elizabeth mchardy · 31 Oct 2010 17:30:03 · Top

What you seem to be forgetting is what you are watching in this video i.e. a group of Army officers and guests, probably after a rather good Mess dinner letting their hair down and dancing in the manner to which they are accustomed.

Elizabeth McHardy
Ayr

> From: bsager3@juno.com
> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:53:12 +0000
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
> "adapted by RSCDS" version:
> 12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in their left.
> 13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...
>
> "original" version:
> As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.
>
> Becky
>
> Becky Sager
> Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>
> Becky,
>
> How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.
>
> If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.
>
> Lee
>
> Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
> >To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> >Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> >
> >Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be inspiring us. Take another look at
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
> >the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
> >
> >Becky
> >
> >Becky Sager
> >Marietta GA USA
> > "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> >learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
> >
> >
> >
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59731 · simon scott · 31 Oct 2010 17:53:06 · Top

Elizabeth

I agree with you "one hundred" percent.

Many people seem to be pushing this dance into RSCDS form, which is not its
origin.

RSCDS is fantastic, in itself, but other styles must have their place.
They are just as valid and often more original.

Simon Scott
Vancouver

-----Original Message-----
From: elizabeth mchardy [mailto:e1mch@hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: October-31-10 9:30 AM
To: SCD news and discussion
Subject: RE: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

What you seem to be forgetting is what you are watching in this video i.e.
a group of Army officers and guests, probably after a rather good Mess
dinner letting their hair down and dancing in the manner to which they are
accustomed.

Elizabeth McHardy
Ayr

> From: bsager3@juno.com
> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:53:12 +0000
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
> "adapted by RSCDS" version:
> 12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left
arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in
their left.
> 13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...
>
> "original" version:
> As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip
immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.
>
> Becky
>
> Becky Sager
> Marietta GA USA
> "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>
> Becky,
>
> How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have
a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified
tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's
being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn
as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then
the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.
>
> If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their
prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the
RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial
mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other
specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.
>
> Lee
>
> Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
> >To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> >Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> >
> >Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is
not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be
inspiring us. Take another look at
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
> >the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first
couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
> >
> >Becky
> >
> >Becky Sager
> >Marietta GA USA
> > "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> >learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
> >
> >
> >
>
>

What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)

Message 59732 · elizabeth mchardy · 31 Oct 2010 19:00:11 · Top

I did not mean that the RSCDS form of the dance is not valid it is but people seem to be trying to say that the people in the video are dancing "wrongly" when all they are doing is their own dance form.

Elizabeth McHardy
Ayr

> From: simon.scott@telus.net
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: RE: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:53:06 -0700
>
> Elizabeth
>
> I agree with you "one hundred" percent.
>
> Many people seem to be pushing this dance into RSCDS form, which is not its
> origin.
>
> RSCDS is fantastic, in itself, but other styles must have their place.
> They are just as valid and often more original.
>
> Simon Scott
> Vancouver
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elizabeth mchardy [mailto:e1mch@hotmail.co.uk]
> Sent: October-31-10 9:30 AM
> To: SCD news and discussion
> Subject: RE: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
> again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
>
>
> What you seem to be forgetting is what you are watching in this video i.e.
> a group of Army officers and guests, probably after a rather good Mess
> dinner letting their hair down and dancing in the manner to which they are
> accustomed.
>
> Elizabeth McHardy
> Ayr
>
> > From: bsager3@juno.com
> > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:53:12 +0000
> > To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
> again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> >
> > "adapted by RSCDS" version:
> > 12 1st and 2nd couples dance in and take Tulloch hold by linking left
> arms, right hands behind their backs, and their partner's right hand in
> their left.
> > 13-16 1st and 2nd couples turn...
> >
> > "original" version:
> > As the 1st and 2nd couples give left hands to each other they slip
> immediately into a left-handed Tulloch Hold, turning twice.
> >
> > Becky
> >
> > Becky Sager
> > Marietta GA USA
> > "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> > learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------
> > From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
> > To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
> again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> > Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:38:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> >
> > Becky,
> >
> > How is the turn described in the RSCDS version of the dance (I don't have
> a copy yet)? If the text of the dance specifically says its a modified
> tulloch turn done as for two ladies or something like that, the way it's
> being done in the videos is fine. But if the RSCDS version just says "turn
> as in Reel of Tulloch" or "tulloch turn" (terminology as per page 20), then
> the men's hands should be in the air as per the bottom figure on page 21.
> >
> > If the devisors want the turn done as for two ladies, that's their
> prerogative, but it should be so specified in the dance description of the
> RSCDS version as a deviation from the standard. If not, it's an editorial
> mistake by the Society in the published leaflet. There certainly are other
> specified deviations from the standard in the repertoire.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > Beavercreek, OH, USA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com>
> > >Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM
> > >To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> > >Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet)
> again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
> > >
> > >Is what is written in the Manual what we are aiming for in this dance? Is
> not the original, non-RSCDS, version possibly what is supposed to be
> inspiring us. Take another look at
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYfsT45FDs
> > >the first two rounds before it evolves into a wild rumpus. The first
> couple are definitely doing the turn Jimmie taught us.
> > >
> > >Becky
> > >
> > >Becky Sager
> > >Marietta GA USA
> > > "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
> > >learning how to dance in the rain." Marcy Shirley
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59701 · Iain Boyd · 30 Oct 2010 05:40:27 · Top

Dear Lee,

It is not the first time and it will not be the last time - certainly, if the Society insists on changing perfectly good movements because someone at the top likes/prefers them done differently and has the clout to have them changed.

Fortunately, I am not an examiner and need not 'toe the party line'. As one of the 'long-standing teachers' referred to below you will find that I teach what I was original taught and, hence, prefer and think is right!

Regards,

Iain Boyd

Postal Address -

P O Box 11-404

Wellington

New Zealand

--- On Sat, 30/10/10, Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: What Are Tulloch Turns (was Re: Kandahar Reel (yet) again...right- hand-hold in Tulloch turns?)
To: strathspey@strathspey.org, strathspey@strathspey.org
Received: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 2:37 PM

Well, that wouldn't be the first time an RSCDS certificated teacher taught something that contradicted the RSCDS manual...

It's particularly a problem with long-standing teachers who don't pay attention to updates to the standards.  Not saying Jimmie did this, just saying it's a not-uncommon problem.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA.


The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59702 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 05:47:25 · Top

Iain,

That kind of "I know better than the Society" pretty much undermines the concept of a common set of standards that allow Scottish country dancers to go anywhere in the world and be able to dance, doesn't it? As RSCDS teachers, I believe it is our duty to stay current on standards and teach to them.

And if you tutor teacher candidates, please don't substitute your preference for the standard specified in the manual as, unfortunately, I have seen done. That would be a horrible disservice to the candidates.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Iain Boyd <iain_boyd_scd@yahoo.co.nz>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:40 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns
>
>Dear Lee,
>
>It is not the first time and it will not be the last time - certainly, if the Society insists on changing perfectly good movements because someone at the top likes/prefers them done differently and has the clout to have them changed.
>
>Fortunately, I am not an examiner and need not 'toe the party line'. As one of the 'long-standing teachers' referred to below you will find that I teach what I was original taught and, hence, prefer and think is right!
>
>Regards,
>
>Iain Boyd
>
>Postal Address -

The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59704 · Rod Downey · 30 Oct 2010 06:32:29 · Top

Hi Lee,

surely it depends on who and where we are teaching. Only a fool would
teach candidates or beginners non-rscds ways of doing things, and who
would put them into that (of teaching candidates if they are
clueless) position anyway?

(Mind candidates classes sometimes look very micromanaged and
formulaic in that this (``the rscds way'') is now interpreted as you must
do this and that in a
circle when for lots of formations they are better taught in e.g. sets as
the geometry is the important thing. Perhaps this is just fashions.)

If you are teaching some advanced class then surely you can certain
formations for example, as saying this is how I think it should be done
and was done (maybe) so long as you also tell them how it is specified by
the society. We all know several examples, ladies chain, all round
poussette etc; in the spirit of why not try things this way. For example
if I was teaching Loch Leven Castle I would teach the ladies chain for
that dance as it was originally done as it enables the formation to
follow. Similarly New Park for the poussette. The people we teach in such
classes should have lots to call on. We teach *dancing* after all.

Sometimes it is nice to teach dances as they *might* have been done, like
Triumph with the waltz, or corner-partner with elbow grip (how sad that
was not used). Often understanding the differences can enable ones dancing
anyway.

With recreational groups such as my weekly groups
I try to make them happy
while working on enabling their dancing. And showing them the ``right''
way for any formation, but not necessarily advocating it all the time.

Sometimes I tell them how to cheat it they are physically challenged.
Here is how to get to that point easily without looking like you are
cheating etc.

It all depends. These people are consenting adults after all.

rod

PS Iain was around long ago when I did my certificate, and in the
period he helped us enormously. Clearly he did not advocate anything but
the ``party line'' for us.

PPS Of course this brings us back to ``How and why do these formations
change anyway? Are we not trusted to be told? Are we ever asked? One
would think that instead of getting information about the shoulder for
the sash, you could say we are thinking of changing formation X as
follows. The reason is Y. Do any of the members have any thoughts on
this before we do it? Please make submissions via the web
site/e-mailaddress/address Z by the date P''

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010, Lee Fuell wrote:

> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:47:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
> Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org, strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch
> Turns
>
> Iain,
>
> That kind of "I know better than the Society" pretty much undermines the concept of a common set of standards that allow Scottish country dancers to go anywhere in the world and be able to dance, doesn't it? As RSCDS teachers, I believe it is our duty to stay current on standards and teach to them.
>
> And if you tutor teacher candidates, please don't substitute your preference for the standard specified in the manual as, unfortunately, I have seen done. That would be a horrible disservice to the candidates.
>
> Lee
>
> Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Iain Boyd <iain_boyd_scd@yahoo.co.nz>
>> Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:40 PM
>> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>> Subject: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns
>>
>> Dear Lee,
>>
>> It is not the first time and it will not be the last time - certainly, if the Society insists on changing perfectly good movements because someone at the top likes/prefers them done differently and has the clout to have them changed.
>>
>> Fortunately, I am not an examiner and need not 'toe the party line'. As one of the 'long-standing teachers' referred to below you will find that I teach what I was original taught and, hence, prefer and think is right!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Iain Boyd
>>
>> Postal Address -
>

The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59707 · Iain Boyd · 30 Oct 2010 11:39:13 · Top

Dear Lee,

I am unable to agree with you that as RSCDS teachers, it is our duty to stay current on standards and teach to them.

The Society, by changing perfectly acceptable movements, is the reason that we can no longer have a common set of standards.

I still teach to the RSCDS standards, but, they are, in the main, the standards I was original taught!

As far as teaching teacher candidates is concerned, there is no problem as I have never been asked nor ever will be asked to teach them - simply because it is well known that I refuse to kowtow to another group of teachers who themselves thought they were better than the rest of us when they pushed through the changes I refer to.

Regards,

Iain Boyd

Postal Address -

P O Box 11-404

Wellington

New Zealand

--- On Sat, 30/10/10, Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Lee Fuell <fuell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns
To: strathspey@strathspey.org, strathspey@strathspey.org
Received: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 4:47 PM

Iain,

That kind of "I know better than the Society" pretty much undermines the concept of a common set of standards that allow Scottish country dancers to go anywhere in the world and be able to dance, doesn't it?  As RSCDS teachers, I believe it is our duty to stay current on standards and teach to them.

And if you tutor teacher candidates, please don't substitute your preference for the standard specified in the manual as, unfortunately, I have seen done.  That would be a horrible disservice to the candidates.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Iain Boyd <iain_boyd_scd@yahoo.co.nz>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2010 11:40 PM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns
>
>Dear Lee,
>
>It is not the first time and it will not be the last time - certainly, if the Society insists on changing perfectly good movements because someone at the top likes/prefers them done differently and has the clout to have them changed.
>
>Fortunately, I am not an examiner and need not 'toe the party line'. As one of the 'long-standing teachers' referred to below you will find that I teach what I was original taught and, hence, prefer and think is right!
>
>Regards,
>
>Iain Boyd
>
>Postal Address -


The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59710 · Lee Fuell · 30 Oct 2010 14:07:02 · Top

Rod,

I've done quite a lot of what you suggest below myself, especially when there is a "common practice" that deviates from the standard that the class may encounter on the dance floor (ex: "twiddles in the middle" on set to and turn corners). But I try to always teach this way:

- Here's the standard
- Now here's a common variation

What I object to is teachers who don't bother to stay current and aware of revisions and those who are aware but do not bother to teach the standard because they don't agree with it.

Re tutors, my Unit 3 tutor (no names) actually said in class, "I don't care what the manual says, here's what I'd do." Fortunately, I had the sense to ignore such things and teach my exam to the standards in the manual. Good to know Iain tutored by the book.

Lee

Beavercreek, OH, USA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rod Downey <Rod.Downey@msor.vuw.ac.nz>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2010 12:32 AM
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns
>
>
>
>Hi Lee,
>
>surely it depends on who and where we are teaching. Only a fool would
>teach candidates or beginners non-rscds ways of doing things, and who
>would put them into that (of teaching candidates if they are
>clueless) position anyway?
>
>(Mind candidates classes sometimes look very micromanaged and
>formulaic in that this (``the rscds way'') is now interpreted as you must
>do this and that in a
>circle when for lots of formations they are better taught in e.g. sets as
>the geometry is the important thing. Perhaps this is just fashions.)
>
>
>If you are teaching some advanced class then surely you can certain
>formations for example, as saying this is how I think it should be done
>and was done (maybe) so long as you also tell them how it is specified by
>the society. We all know several examples, ladies chain, all round
>poussette etc; in the spirit of why not try things this way. For example
>if I was teaching Loch Leven Castle I would teach the ladies chain for
>that dance as it was originally done as it enables the formation to
>follow. Similarly New Park for the poussette. The people we teach in such
>classes should have lots to call on. We teach *dancing* after all.
>
>Sometimes it is nice to teach dances as they *might* have been done, like
>Triumph with the waltz, or corner-partner with elbow grip (how sad that
>was not used). Often understanding the differences can enable ones dancing
>anyway.
>
>With recreational groups such as my weekly groups
>I try to make them happy
>while working on enabling their dancing. And showing them the ``right''
>way for any formation, but not necessarily advocating it all the time.
>
>
>Sometimes I tell them how to cheat it they are physically challenged.
>Here is how to get to that point easily without looking like you are
>cheating etc.
>
>
>It all depends. These people are consenting adults after all.
>
>rod
>
>PS Iain was around long ago when I did my certificate, and in the
>period he helped us enormously. Clearly he did not advocate anything but
>the ``party line'' for us.
>
>PPS Of course this brings us back to ``How and why do these formations
>change anyway? Are we not trusted to be told? Are we ever asked? One
>would think that instead of getting information about the shoulder for
>the sash, you could say we are thinking of changing formation X as
>follows. The reason is Y. Do any of the members have any thoughts on
>this before we do it? Please make submissions via the web
>site/e-mailaddress/address Z by the date P''
>
>
>
>

The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59714 · Anselm Lingnau · 30 Oct 2010 16:26:08 · Top

Lee Fuell wrote:

> What I object to is teachers who don't bother to stay current and aware of
> revisions and those who are aware but do not bother to teach the standard
> because they don't agree with it.

I think our standards set us apart from many other forms of dancing, and they
are a major advantage of SCD. We teachers should not disregard this lightly,
but on the other hand the people behind those standards shouldn't either. It
is a social contract.

The problem with Lee's point is that »the standards« tend to get changed by
stealth – you pretty much need to put the old and the new manual on a table
side by side and compare every page, when the proper thing to do on the part
of the Society would be to publish a specific list of updates.

The other problem with Lee's point is that it is often difficult to tell
exactly why some changes to »the standards« have been made, other than that,
as Iain suggests, somebody with the necessary clout was apparently in a
position to push through some personal hobby horse. Iain says that he teaches
to the RSCDS standards that were current when he took up teaching because they
make sense to him, and the new standards don't (as much, anyway). This dilemma
cannot be solved by dogmatism of the form »You WILL teach to the new standards
because they are the new standards«, but must be addressed by explaining
exactly how the new standards are better than the old ones – and by corollary,
if such an explanation is not made in a way that will convince the Iains of
this world, to not introduce the new standards in the first place.

What the Society should do is what every other self-respecting standards body
in this world does, namely publish draft versions of a new edition of the
Manual for public comment, and then address any comments that are submitted by
the community at large. (Note that this does not mean »blindly follow any
comments« – it just means that if a change seems gratuitious there ought to be
some rationale as to why it is really a good idea.)

One must admit that, for an organisation that has for nearly a century been
accustomed to publishing pronouncements on stone tablets to be carried down
from the holy mountain with the full force of dogma behind them, this is not
an easy change to go through. However, it may yet be too early to declare the
patient dead.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
These writers had every incentive to make Jesus look miraculous to compete
with the other Messiahs and gods. It’s playing a game of telephone with people
who think burning animals make gods happy and demons make people sick. After a
week, the stories would be inflated. After 40 years, people are rising from
the dead and walking on water. -- Daniel Florien, on the Gospels

The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are Tulloch Turns

Message 59715 · Martin Campoveja · 30 Oct 2010 16:53:27 · Top

> - Here's the standard
> - Now here's a common variation
>

It is amazing that such a discussion should take place.
Do they really expect us to respect a set of rules that change from time to
time, apparently on the whim of some self-appointed authority.
I have never come across any justification such as "it would be better to
xxx like this, rather than the way we always used to do it (or even than the
way it is commonly danced in Scotland) ... BECAUSE ..."
(eg: If the R-shoulder reels in 1_16 of Cadgers were danced as mirror reels,
it would be more comfortable for 1st lady BECAUSE she would then be facing
the right way to set to 2nd lady -- and BECAUSE the book 10 instructions
were probably and erronous reconstruction.)

If anyone wants world-wide standardization, the rules cannot be changed
without a very good reason.

Martin

It is unfortunate that "standard" can mean either "usual" or "best"

> What I object to is teachers who don't bother to stay current and aware of
> revisions and those who are aware but do not bother to teach the standard
> because they don't agree with it.
>
> Re tutors, my Unit 3 tutor (no names) actually said in class, "I don't care
> what the manual says, here's what I'd do." Fortunately, I had the sense to
> ignore such things and teach my exam to the standards in the manual. Good
> to know Iain tutored by the book.
>
> Lee
>
> Beavercreek, OH, USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rod Downey <Rod.Downey@msor.vuw.ac.nz>
> >Sent: Oct 30, 2010 12:32 AM
> >To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> >Subject: Re: The teaching of 'long-standing teachers' - was What Are
> Tulloch Turns
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Lee,
> >
> >surely it depends on who and where we are teaching. Only a fool would
> >teach candidates or beginners non-rscds ways of doing things, and who
> >would put them into that (of teaching candidates if they are
> >clueless) position anyway?
> >
> >(Mind candidates classes sometimes look very micromanaged and
> >formulaic in that this (``the rscds way'') is now interpreted as you must
> >do this and that in a
> >circle when for lots of formations they are better taught in e.g. sets as
> >the geometry is the important thing. Perhaps this is just fashions.)
> >
> >
> >If you are teaching some advanced class then surely you can certain
> >formations for example, as saying this is how I think it should be done
> >and was done (maybe) so long as you also tell them how it is specified by
> >the society. We all know several examples, ladies chain, all round
> >poussette etc; in the spirit of why not try things this way. For example
> >if I was teaching Loch Leven Castle I would teach the ladies chain for
> >that dance as it was originally done as it enables the formation to
> >follow. Similarly New Park for the poussette. The people we teach in such
> >classes should have lots to call on. We teach *dancing* after all.
> >
> >Sometimes it is nice to teach dances as they *might* have been done, like
> >Triumph with the waltz, or corner-partner with elbow grip (how sad that
> >was not used). Often understanding the differences can enable ones dancing
> >anyway.
> >
> >With recreational groups such as my weekly groups
> >I try to make them happy
> >while working on enabling their dancing. And showing them the ``right''
> >way for any formation, but not necessarily advocating it all the time.
> >
> >
> >Sometimes I tell them how to cheat it they are physically challenged.
> >Here is how to get to that point easily without looking like you are
> >cheating etc.
> >
> >
> >It all depends. These people are consenting adults after all.
> >
> >rod
> >
> >PS Iain was around long ago when I did my certificate, and in the
> >period he helped us enormously. Clearly he did not advocate anything but
> >the ``party line'' for us.
> >
> >PPS Of course this brings us back to ``How and why do these formations
> >change anyway? Are we not trusted to be told? Are we ever asked? One
> >would think that instead of getting information about the shoulder for
> >the sash, you could say we are thinking of changing formation X as
> >follows. The reason is Y. Do any of the members have any thoughts on
> >this before we do it? Please make submissions via the web
> >site/e-mailaddress/address Z by the date P''
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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