strathspey Archive: RSCDS AGM motions

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RSCDS AGM motions

Message 53887 · Peter McClure · 20 Oct 2008 23:10:27 · Top

A few weeks ago, one of the list members - I think it was Helen Brown
- posted a note drawing attention to the draft agenda for the RSCDS
AGM, to be held next month, and in particular, to one of the motions
listed in the agenda. I've been rather surprised that there has been
no response on the list. Anyhow, the motion in question, proposed by
the New Zealand Branch, and which would allow branches to have
members who are not RSCDS members, is now on the final agenda for the
meeting, accompanied by what is called an "amendment", which proposes
that the motion be "remitted" to the Management Board for study and
report.

My question is, does anyone else find this to be very odd, from the
point of view of procedure? As I understand such things, an
amendment to a motion is considered by the meeting, and passed, or
not; then, the original motion, amended or not, goes to the meeting
for a vote. However, if the "amendment" means what it seems to say,
its intention is to forestall voting on the original motion.

Am I missing something? I'm not a fan of meetings, but I think I
might like to be a fly on the wall at this one.

Peter McClure
Winnipeg, MB, Canada

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53889 · Mike Briggs · 21 Oct 2008 00:04:53 · Top

I would imagine that most RSCDS branches (local associations) have one
or more dance clubs within their geographic area, and that typically the
clubs have their own distinct history and traditions, officers,and finances.

Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
person is not also a Society member?

Mike Briggs
Oregon WI USAR

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53891 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 00:24:50 · Top

Er, I can't quite see your point Mike... the motion in question is about
RSCDS branches/local associations, which are required to comply with the
RSCDS constitution, including membership requirements (ie. all branch
members are RSCDS members). Said constitution obviously does not concern
itself with the membership of any other clubs/associations who are not
related to the RSCDS, even if they happen to be geographically close to
a branch.

Sophie

Norma and Mike Briggs wrote:
> I would imagine that most RSCDS branches (local associations) have one
> or more dance clubs within their geographic area, and that typically
> the clubs have their own distinct history and traditions, officers,and
> finances.
>
> Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
> constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
> person is not also a Society member?
>
> Mike Briggs
> Oregon WI USAR
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53892 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 00:44:12 · Top

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
> constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
> person is not also a Society member?

The Society is not in a position to prevent people from joining random *other*
dance clubs. We're not a religion or a nation state.

What we *can* do is stipulate who gets to be a member of a Local Association
(commonly called a »branch«), as LAs need to enter into a »license agreement«
with the Society as a prerequisite to actually becoming an LA, and we don't
license groups of people if they don't agree to play by the Rules. The Rules,
section VI.2, decree that

»A proposed Local Association/Branch may be licensed by the Society
provided that the following conditions are fulfilled.

(a) All members of the Local Association/Branch must be members of the
Society.

...«

thus unless the prospective LA exhibits a constitution that makes Society
membership mandatory for their members they will not be licensed. End of
story.

The motion put forward by New Zealand Branch is looking to get this changed
(among other things), although the actual proposed change in Appendix D of
the 2008 AGM agenda does not, in fact, seem get rid of clause (a), which I'd
assume would be necessary for the change to work -- it does insert a new
clause (b) stipulating that all branch *office bearers* must be members of
the Society, but if one presumes that one needs to be a member of the branch
to be an office bearer, what the new (b) does would automatically follow from
clause (a), anyway. But then again I don't even play a lawyer on TV, so what
do I know?

The constitution is available as
http://www.rscds.org/uploads-work-in-progress/Constitution%20-%20Rules%20Nov%2006.pdf
and the 2008 AGM agenda can be found at
http://www.rscds.org/agm-2007-public-material/02AGM2008FinalAgendaV2.pdf/at_download/file .
(It beats me why one would need to be logged in as a member to be able to
access the agenda, which is in a folder called »public material« alongside
all sorts of other items that are, in fact, accessible to non-members, and
pertains to a meeting that is, by law, open to the general public. The caveat
at the end of the previous paragraph applies.)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
After all, all he did was string together a lot of old, well-known quotations.
-- Henry Louis Mencken, on Shakespeare

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53893 · Mike Briggs · 21 Oct 2008 01:56:25 · Top

Sorry to keep you guys up late.  Sophie, my point was that dancers belong to clubs and pay whatever club dues may be necessary -- but they don't necessarily have to join their local RSCDS branch, or pay RSCDS dues, to enjoy their hobby.

Our branch (the John Muir (Wisconsin) Branch) exists as an umbrella organization through which those of our members who so desire can support the Society and its activities.  Others, who just want to come to class, can (if they wish) join and pay dues to the local club (here, the Madison Scottish Country Dancers), which runs the classes.

Any reason this might not work elsewhere in the world?

Mike

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

+ Mike and Norma Briggs +

+ 1519 Storytown Road +

+ Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA +

+ +1 608 835 0914 (voice) +1 608 835 0924 (fax) +

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

--- On Mon, 10/20/08, Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:
From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 5:44 PM

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
> constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
> person is not also a Society member?

The Society is not in a position to prevent people from joining random *other*
dance clubs. We're not a religion or a nation state.

What we *can* do is stipulate who gets to be a member of a Local Association
(commonly called a »branch«), as LAs need to enter into a »license
agreement«
with the Society as a prerequisite to actually becoming an LA, and we don't

license groups of people if they don't agree to play by the Rules. The
Rules,
section VI.2, decree that

»A proposed Local Association/Branch may be licensed by the Society
provided that the following conditions are fulfilled.

(a) All members of the Local Association/Branch must be members of the
Society.

...«

thus unless the prospective LA exhibits a constitution that makes Society
membership mandatory for their members they will not be licensed. End of
story.

The motion put forward by New Zealand Branch is looking to get this changed
(among other things), although the actual proposed change in Appendix D of
the 2008 AGM agenda does not, in fact, seem get rid of clause (a), which
I'd
assume would be necessary for the change to work -- it does insert a new
clause (b) stipulating that all branch *office bearers* must be members of
the Society, but if one presumes that one needs to be a member of the branch
to be an office bearer, what the new (b) does would automatically follow from
clause (a), anyway. But then again I don't even play a lawyer on TV, so
what
do I know?

The constitution is available as
http://www.rscds.org/uploads-work-in-progress/Constitution%20-%20Rules%20Nov%2006.pdf
and the 2008 AGM agenda can be found at
http://www.rscds.org/agm-2007-public-material/02AGM2008FinalAgendaV2.pdf/at_download/file
.
(It beats me why one would need to be logged in as a member to be able to
access the agenda, which is in a folder called »public material« alongside
all sorts of other items that are, in fact, accessible to non-members, and
pertains to a meeting that is, by law, open to the general public. The caveat
at the end of the previous paragraph applies.)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
After all, all he did was string together a lot of old, well-known quotations.
-- Henry Louis Mencken, on Shakespeare

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53894 · Lara Friedman-Shedlov · 21 Oct 2008 04:08:21 · Top

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Norma or Mike Briggs
<briggslaw@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> Our branch (the John Muir (Wisconsin) Branch) exists as an umbrella
> organization through which those of our members who so desire can support
> the Society and its activities. Others, who just want to come to class, can
> (if they wish) join and pay dues to the local club (here, the Madison
> Scottish Country Dancers), which runs the classes.
>
> Any reason this might not work elsewhere in the world?
>
>
It might well work, but it necessitates having two committees/leadership
groups -- one to run the branch and another to run the club. In smaller
branches, finding that many people willing to run things is a drain on human
resources. The whole thing strikes me as a work-around that could be easily
avoided if the branches could be left to make their own policy on membership
in the Society.

In our branch, a proposal was made to establish a "non-member participation
fee," which would allow people many of the same benefits of branch
membership (e.g. weekly classes, socials, receiving the branch newsletter,
and performing with the group). The proposal became very controversial, as
some members felt it was a back-handed way of getting around the rules and
depriving the Society of support. Another concern was whether these
non-member participants, since they are not members of the branch, would be
covered by the branch's liability insurance. Both objections could be put
to rest if the Society dropped the requirement that all branch/local
association members are members of the Society.

Lara Friedman-Shedlov
RSCDS Twin Cities Branch
Minneapolis/St. Paull, Minnesota

*****************************
Lara Friedman~Shedlov
lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com

*****************************

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53900 · Andrew Smith · 21 Oct 2008 09:54:31 · Top

Of course the Society cannot be, and is not, prescriptive with regard to
membership of other dancing groups, to answer the original enquiry.

There is no problem that I can see with the John Muir (Wisconsin) solution
if there is amity in the area and everyone is comfortable. The issue of the
numbers of committees is an issue for the dancing community in relation to
its geography and numbers, and presumably market forces would apply - in one
smallish town in the UK there are four separate groups. Presumably they
co-exist to serve slightly different expectations, and/or are in a position
to go off in different directions for dances elsewhere. I cannot comment on
their viability.

Here in Bristol we charge non-members more than members for the weekly
classes, and furthermore there is a class discount to students(whether
members or not) and an additional discount to members paying the term fees
at the beginning of term. Non-Society, non-Bristol members are of course
welcome to our dances, and the ticket price is the same for all, except that
we generally offer a discount to students. So the non-members know that they
are helping support the activities of the Local Association - whether or not
they become members of the Society is their personal choice. We do not see
the involvement of non-members as a problem, but more of a benefit.

The issue of insurance is not new.

Nor is the principal purpose of the Society, in its Constitution, "to
advance the education of the public in traditional Scottish country dancing
... ." This is reinforced in the Model Constitution to which all Local
Associations subscribe on being awarded a licence, where the principal
object is : "to advance the education of the public in traditional Scottish
country dancing in the area of .......... and its neighbourhood in
traditional Scottish country dancing ... ."

I think that I have commented before that if a branch operates a 'closed'
policy it cannot possibly, IMHO, be fulfilling that principal object. I do
not believe that it is at all reasonable to expect "the public" to join our
Society before having at least tried us out for a reasonable period to see
if we meet their expectations. If we do let them try us out and they enjoy
themselves and understand and appreciate what the Society is trying to do
and get welcoming encouragement from the Branch Committee and existing
members (and in our case the incentives of the Branch Weekend and priority
booking for the Burns' Supper and Dance) they may well become members. There
is every likelihood that a 'closed' group will eventually wither and die, as
we have in fact seen.

So, we come back to insurance: our insurance policies must recognise our
constitutional obligations to the public and provide the appropriate cover.
There should then surely be no problem in non-Society members attending
functions.

There is a further consideration, that goes back some way to the
establishment of Local Associations as opposed to the Branches as they were
then constituted. I was not directly involved at the time but believe that
the principal reason for the separation was that it was seen that if,
particularly a major, Branch got in to financial difficulties for whatever
reason or was bankrupt by adverse litigation, for example, then the Society
in turn would be exposed to those liabilities, which could be severly
damaging to the Society, without it having any control over the
circumstances leading to that damage. Hence a legal separation was created
by which the Society allows the establishment of a Local Association of
Members of the Society by members in a given area, using the Society logo
etc etc under licence.

I therefore suggest that Lara's comment that "Both objections could be put
to rest if the Society dropped the requirement that all branch/local
association members are members of the Society." has been answered and that
the Society does not necessarily need to change the status quo. However, the
proposed amendment to the NZ motion shows that it is prepared to consider
changes, as there will be, as is already apparent, a whole range of
differing local requirements/perceptions around the world that need to be
taken in to account, rather than one view, before a constitutional change is
tabled.

Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lara Friedman-Shedlov" <lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Norma or Mike Briggs
> <briggslaw@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> Our branch (the John Muir (Wisconsin) Branch) exists as an umbrella
>> organization through which those of our members who so desire can support
>> the Society and its activities. Others, who just want to come to class,
>> can
>> (if they wish) join and pay dues to the local club (here, the Madison
>> Scottish Country Dancers), which runs the classes.
>>
>> Any reason this might not work elsewhere in the world?
>>
>>
> It might well work, but it necessitates having two committees/leadership
> groups -- one to run the branch and another to run the club. In smaller
> branches, finding that many people willing to run things is a drain on
> human
> resources. The whole thing strikes me as a work-around that could be
> easily
> avoided if the branches could be left to make their own policy on
> membership
> in the Society.
>
> In our branch, a proposal was made to establish a "non-member
> participation
> fee," which would allow people many of the same benefits of branch
> membership (e.g. weekly classes, socials, receiving the branch newsletter,
> and performing with the group). The proposal became very controversial,
> as
> some members felt it was a back-handed way of getting around the rules and
> depriving the Society of support. Another concern was whether these
> non-member participants, since they are not members of the branch, would
> be
> covered by the branch's liability insurance. Both objections could be put
> to rest if the Society dropped the requirement that all branch/local
> association members are members of the Society.
>
> Lara Friedman-Shedlov
> RSCDS Twin Cities Branch
> Minneapolis/St. Paull, Minnesota
>
>
> *****************************
> Lara Friedman~Shedlov
> lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com
>
> *****************************
>
>

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53904 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 10:15:22 · Top

Actually, that seems like the best way around it and doesn't seem to
contravene the RSCDS constitution. Maybe it would be possible, even
under the current constitution (or with far less change), to allow
branches to have an "associate member" status (akin to what I believe
some currently have for under-16s), with benefits such as those you
mention, but without voting rights (neither at branch nor at RSCDS level)?

Sophie

Lara Friedman-Shedlov wrote:
> In our branch, a proposal was made to establish a "non-member participation
> fee," which would allow people many of the same benefits of branch
> membership (e.g. weekly classes, socials, receiving the branch newsletter,
> and performing with the group). The proposal became very controversial, as
> some members felt it was a back-handed way of getting around the rules and
> depriving the Society of support. Another concern was whether these
> non-member participants, since they are not members of the branch, would be
> covered by the branch's liability insurance. Both objections could be put
> to rest if the Society dropped the requirement that all branch/local
> association members are members of the Society.
>
--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53902 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 10:05:39 · Top

Mike,

But then these people are not members of the branch at all, just members
of some other, non-RSCDS-related group, so the motion doesn't relate to
them. The point of the motion is about people who want to become branch
members (with e.g. reduced fees for branch classes, voting rights at the
branch AGM, etc.) but not RSCDS members. Here in Edinburgh people can
join branch classes without being members, but they pay considerably
more per 10-week term so it's worth becoming a member (branch + society)
if you do at least 2 terms in the year.

Sophie

Norma or Mike Briggs wrote:
> Sorry to keep you guys up late. Sophie, my point was that dancers belong to clubs and pay whatever club dues may be necessary -- but they don't necessarily have to join their local RSCDS branch, or pay RSCDS dues, to enjoy their hobby.
>
> Our branch (the John Muir (Wisconsin) Branch) exists as an umbrella organization through which those of our members who so desire can support the Society and its activities. Others, who just want to come to class, can (if they wish) join and pay dues to the local club (here, the Madison Scottish Country Dancers), which runs the classes.
>
> Any reason this might not work elsewhere in the world?
>
> Mike
>
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>
> + Mike and Norma Briggs +
>
> + 1519 Storytown Road +
>
> + Oregon WI 53711-1925 USA +
>
> + +1 608 835 0914 (voice) +1 608 835 0924 (fax) +
>
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>
> --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:
> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 5:44 PM
>
> Mike Briggs wrote:
>
>
>> Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
>> constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
>> person is not also a Society member?
>>
>
> The Society is not in a position to prevent people from joining random *other*
> dance clubs. We're not a religion or a nation state.
>
> What we *can* do is stipulate who gets to be a member of a Local Association
> (commonly called a »branch«), as LAs need to enter into a »license
> agreement«
> with the Society as a prerequisite to actually becoming an LA, and we don't
>
> license groups of people if they don't agree to play by the Rules. The
> Rules,
> section VI.2, decree that
>
> »A proposed Local Association/Branch may be licensed by the Society
> provided that the following conditions are fulfilled.
>
> (a) All members of the Local Association/Branch must be members of the
> Society.
>
> ...«
>
> thus unless the prospective LA exhibits a constitution that makes Society
> membership mandatory for their members they will not be licensed. End of
> story.
>
> The motion put forward by New Zealand Branch is looking to get this changed
> (among other things), although the actual proposed change in Appendix D of
> the 2008 AGM agenda does not, in fact, seem get rid of clause (a), which
> I'd
> assume would be necessary for the change to work -- it does insert a new
> clause (b) stipulating that all branch *office bearers* must be members of
> the Society, but if one presumes that one needs to be a member of the branch
> to be an office bearer, what the new (b) does would automatically follow from
> clause (a), anyway. But then again I don't even play a lawyer on TV, so
> what
> do I know?
>
> The constitution is available as
> http://www.rscds.org/uploads-work-in-progress/Constitution%20-%20Rules%20Nov%2006.pdf
> and the 2008 AGM agenda can be found at
> http://www.rscds.org/agm-2007-public-material/02AGM2008FinalAgendaV2.pdf/at_download/file
> .
> (It beats me why one would need to be logged in as a member to be able to
> access the agenda, which is in a folder called »public material« alongside
> all sorts of other items that are, in fact, accessible to non-members, and
> pertains to a meeting that is, by law, open to the general public. The caveat
> at the end of the previous paragraph applies.)
>
> Anselm
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53906 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 10:51:34 · Top

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> Here in Edinburgh people can
> join branch classes without being members, but they pay considerably
> more per 10-week term so it's worth becoming a member (branch + society)
> if you do at least 2 terms in the year.

But that makes joining the branch an economic proposition rather than one
where one decides that one identifies with the branch's (or the Society's)
aims. It is of course up to any individual to figure out for themselves,
based on their own reasons, whether to join the branch or not.

However we do have a bit of a problem with people weighing Society membership
strictly based on »do I get out at least as much as I put in?«. This may be
great for an active branch like the one in Edinburgh, which actually has
economic benefits to offer, but for many people out in the boonies (like
Germany), Society membership amounts to a measly two copies of a glossy
magazine at £17 per year; it is a nice magazine, to be sure, but the price
does look, kinda sorta, steep for a magazine subscription.

So, for people to consider Society membership, we should work on making it so
that they want to contribute to the Society not for their own personal
benefit but for the benefit of the SCD community as a whole (as mediated by
the Society). Of course this presupposes that the Society actually *is*
widely perceived as doing things for the benefit of the SCD community as a
whole, rather than RSCDS members, or RSCDS members in Scotland, or Scottish
country dancers in Scotland, or people who get to attend Summer School, or
RSCDS-certified teachers, or people who are happy being told to point their
feet, or whatever other »elite« one cares to imagine. It presupposes that the
Society is widely perceived as listening to the SCD community (rather than
just its membership), its needs and possible contributions, and perceived as
trying to accommodate these needs and contributions while still upholding its
mission of serving as the »unifying force« for Scottish country dancers
world-wide. It presupposes that the Society is perceived as something one can
be proud, rather than ashamed, to be a member of.

In my opinion, the Society's dwindling membership numbers (15,712 in 2008,
down from 17,649 in 2005) force the conclusion that these perceptions do not
exist in the way that we want them to exist, and this existential problem is
not solved by thinking, or encouraging people -- by action or omission -- to
think, about Society membership purely in economic terms. The best way to
solve the perceptions problem is by actually *doing*, to the fullest extent
that we can, the things we want to be seen doing. And incidentally, that does
not mean the Chairman, or the Management Board, or the standing committees,
or the full-time employees, or the teachers, or the branch office bearers. It
means you and me.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
There are two kinds of men who never amount to very much: Those who cannot do
what they are told, and those who can do nothing else. -- Cyrus H. K. Curtis

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53907 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 11:23:03 · Top

I think you are being a bit optimistic about mankind's altruistic
tendencies! At the end of the day, for most people it boils down to
"what do I get out of being a member" - whether it is in terms of money
(e.g. reduced class fees) or other perceived benefits (e.g.
standardisation of teaching).

Actually, I wouldn't say that Germany is out in the sticks - the Germans
are usually the largest non-UK group at summer school, so a lot of
members obviously get more out of their subscription than the magazine.
It is more understandable for branches on the other side of the world,
like New Zealand. Having said that, they seem to have structures in
place of which most of continental Europe can only dream, e.g. their own
examiners, who are presumably trained and supported by the RSCDS (and
are not ignored by the Society once they have trained either, one of
them assessed my unit 4 report).

Sophie

Anselm Lingnau wrote:
> Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
>
>
>> Here in Edinburgh people can
>> join branch classes without being members, but they pay considerably
>> more per 10-week term so it's worth becoming a member (branch + society)
>> if you do at least 2 terms in the year.
>>
>
> But that makes joining the branch an economic proposition rather than one
> where one decides that one identifies with the branch's (or the Society's)
> aims. It is of course up to any individual to figure out for themselves,
> based on their own reasons, whether to join the branch or not.
>
> However we do have a bit of a problem with people weighing Society membership
> strictly based on »do I get out at least as much as I put in?«. This may be
> great for an active branch like the one in Edinburgh, which actually has
> economic benefits to offer, but for many people out in the boonies (like
> Germany), Society membership amounts to a measly two copies of a glossy
> magazine at £17 per year; it is a nice magazine, to be sure, but the price
> does look, kinda sorta, steep for a magazine subscription.
>
> So, for people to consider Society membership, we should work on making it so
> that they want to contribute to the Society not for their own personal
> benefit but for the benefit of the SCD community as a whole (as mediated by
> the Society). Of course this presupposes that the Society actually *is*
> widely perceived as doing things for the benefit of the SCD community as a
> whole, rather than RSCDS members, or RSCDS members in Scotland, or Scottish
> country dancers in Scotland, or people who get to attend Summer School, or
> RSCDS-certified teachers, or people who are happy being told to point their
> feet, or whatever other »elite« one cares to imagine. It presupposes that the
> Society is widely perceived as listening to the SCD community (rather than
> just its membership), its needs and possible contributions, and perceived as
> trying to accommodate these needs and contributions while still upholding its
> mission of serving as the »unifying force« for Scottish country dancers
> world-wide. It presupposes that the Society is perceived as something one can
> be proud, rather than ashamed, to be a member of.
>
> In my opinion, the Society's dwindling membership numbers (15,712 in 2008,
> down from 17,649 in 2005) force the conclusion that these perceptions do not
> exist in the way that we want them to exist, and this existential problem is
> not solved by thinking, or encouraging people -- by action or omission -- to
> think, about Society membership purely in economic terms. The best way to
> solve the perceptions problem is by actually *doing*, to the fullest extent
> that we can, the things we want to be seen doing. And incidentally, that does
> not mean the Chairman, or the Management Board, or the standing committees,
> or the full-time employees, or the teachers, or the branch office bearers. It
> means you and me.
>
> Anselm
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53910 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 12:24:56 · Top

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> I think you are being a bit optimistic about mankind's altruistic
> tendencies! At the end of the day, for most people it boils down to
> "what do I get out of being a member" - whether it is in terms of money
> (e.g. reduced class fees) or other perceived benefits (e.g.
> standardisation of teaching).

*Some* people in the Society must be altruistic, or we would have folded long
ago. I don't really count »standardisation of teaching« as a personal benefit
since its main benefit is on the community as a whole. People can dance in
the same group with the same teacher for a very long time without bothering
about standardisation; it only comes in when you want to go elsewhere or
attend a different teacher's class.

> Actually, I wouldn't say that Germany is out in the sticks - the Germans
> are usually the largest non-UK group at summer school, so a lot of
> members obviously get more out of their subscription than the magazine.

These days you no longer need to be an RSCDS member to be able to go to Summer
School. It just turns out that members pay a little less than non-members --
the equivalent of a one-year HQ subscription, to be exact :^)

As I explained earlier, to an individual in Germany it makes no difference
whether they are Society members or not as far as their dancing is concerned,
since joining the branch does not give one any benefits that impact the dance
floor, compared to not joining the branch. So the branch, I think, tends to
attract people who believe in the Society rather than people who just want to
read the magazine or go to Summer School. This is why there are at least ten
non-members to each member in Germany.

> It is more understandable for branches on the other side of the world,
> like New Zealand. Having said that, they seem to have structures in
> place of which most of continental Europe can only dream, e.g. their own
> examiners, who are presumably trained and supported by the RSCDS (and
> are not ignored by the Society once they have trained either, one of
> them assessed my unit 4 report).

Yep, but I understand that getting to that point wasn't exactly a picnic :^)
Do we still insist that, for any exam, at least one of the examiners *must*
be brought in from the UK?

In many ways it is easier for places like New Zealand to evolve their own
infrastructure than it is for continental Europe, as in continental Europe it
is still reasonable to fall back on the UK for things like SCD teachers,
dance bands, Summer School, or examiners. I suspect if New Zealand was only a
90-minute £70 flight away from Scotland they wouldn't bother putting on their
own examinations or 4-week residential school. Given this, the Society is
pretty much forced to accommodate them in the Southern Hemisphere if they
want SCD to stay globally standardised. If you look at the Highland dance
world, I understand that there the New Zealanders essentially seceded to do
their own thing, so nowadays Highland dancing in NZ is quite different from
Highland dancing in Scotland, to the extent that NZ dancers are no longer
welcome at competitions in Scotland because their dancing is so much more
impressive that it messes up the field :^)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist
until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse out
of the public treasury. -- Alexander Tytler

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53908 · Andrew Smith · 21 Oct 2008 11:26:21 · Top

Are you including a Branch membership of £2 in your £17, Anselm?
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> Here in Edinburgh people can
> join branch classes without being members, but they pay considerably
> more per 10-week term so it's worth becoming a member (branch + society)
> if you do at least 2 terms in the year.

But that makes joining the branch an economic proposition rather than one
where one decides that one identifies with the branch's (or the Society's)
aims. It is of course up to any individual to figure out for themselves,
based on their own reasons, whether to join the branch or not.

However we do have a bit of a problem with people weighing Society
membership
strictly based on »do I get out at least as much as I put in?«. This may be
great for an active branch like the one in Edinburgh, which actually has
economic benefits to offer, but for many people out in the boonies (like
Germany), Society membership amounts to a measly two copies of a glossy
magazine at £17 per year; it is a nice magazine, to be sure, but the price
does look, kinda sorta, steep for a magazine subscription.

So, for people to consider Society membership, we should work on making it
so
that they want to contribute to the Society not for their own personal
benefit but for the benefit of the SCD community as a whole (as mediated by
the Society). Of course this presupposes that the Society actually *is*
widely perceived as doing things for the benefit of the SCD community as a
whole, rather than RSCDS members, or RSCDS members in Scotland, or Scottish
country dancers in Scotland, or people who get to attend Summer School, or
RSCDS-certified teachers, or people who are happy being told to point their
feet, or whatever other »elite« one cares to imagine. It presupposes that
the
Society is widely perceived as listening to the SCD community (rather than
just its membership), its needs and possible contributions, and perceived as
trying to accommodate these needs and contributions while still upholding
its
mission of serving as the »unifying force« for Scottish country dancers
world-wide. It presupposes that the Society is perceived as something one
can
be proud, rather than ashamed, to be a member of.

In my opinion, the Society's dwindling membership numbers (15,712 in 2008,
down from 17,649 in 2005) force the conclusion that these perceptions do not
exist in the way that we want them to exist, and this existential problem is
not solved by thinking, or encouraging people -- by action or omission -- to
think, about Society membership purely in economic terms. The best way to
solve the perceptions problem is by actually *doing*, to the fullest extent
that we can, the things we want to be seen doing. And incidentally, that
does
not mean the Chairman, or the Management Board, or the standing committees,
or the full-time employees, or the teachers, or the branch office bearers.
It
means you and me.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
There are two kinds of men who never amount to very much: Those who cannot
do
what they are told, and those who can do nothing else. -- Cyrus H. K.
Curtis

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53909 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 11:35:23 · Top

Andrew Smith wrote:

> Are you including a Branch membership of £2 in your £17, Anselm?

AFAIK £17 is the current headquarters membership fee. Membership fees through
branches may differ, but it doesn't really change the argument.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Money can't buy friends, but you can get a better class of enemy.
-- Spike Milligan

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53918 · Andrew Smith · 21 Oct 2008 16:02:23 · Top

11 MOTIONS

11.1 "The Management Board proposes that with effect from 1 July 2008 the

annual subscription shall be £15."

Management Board

From the 2007 AGM Agenda.

Andrew Smith,

Bristol, UK.

"Facts are chiels that winna ding, And downa be disputed." Robert Burns, 'A
Dream'

----- Original Message -----

From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Andrew Smith wrote:

> Are you including a Branch membership of £2 in your £17, Anselm?

AFAIK £17 is the current headquarters membership fee. Membership fees
through
branches may differ, but it doesn't really change the argument.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
Money can't buy friends, but you can get a better class of enemy.
-- Spike
Milligan

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53920 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 16:18:31 · Top

>*Some* people in the Society must be altruistic, or we would have
folded long
>ago. I don't really count »standardisation of teaching« as a personal
benefit
>since its main benefit is on the community as a whole. People can
dance in
>the same group with the same teacher for a very long time without
bothering
>about standardisation; it only comes in when you want to go elsewhere
or
>attend a different teacher's class.

I consider that being able to go and dance anywhere in the world to
the same standards is of benefit to me, not to the SCD community as a
whole - otherwise I'd have a rather inflated opinion of my own dancing!

>These days you no longer need to be an RSCDS member to be able to go
to Summer
>School. It just turns out that members pay a little less than non-
members --
>the equivalent of a one-year HQ subscription, to be exact :^)

You don't have to be a member to sign on for summer school, but the
extra money you pay isn't just equivalent to a 1-year HQ subscription,
it is in fact the subscription itself - in other words, if you go to
summer school without being a member, you automatically become an HQ
member. At least, that was still the case in 2003 when I first went, so
if it's changed it's very recent.

Sophie

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53903 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 10:12:50 · Top

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Our branch (the John Muir (Wisconsin) Branch) exists as an umbrella
> organization through which those of our members who so desire can support
> the Society and its activities.  Others, who just want to come to class,
> can (if they wish) join and pay dues to the local club (here, the Madison
> Scottish Country Dancers), which runs the classes.
>
> Any reason this might not work elsewhere in the world?

Here in Germany the situation is essentially the same. There are 40+ SCD
groups, some of which are affiliated (directly) to the Society and some of
which aren't. There is also the recently-formed RSCDS Central Germany Branch,
of which various dancers are members but again, most aren't. The Branch does
not run classes or put on functions at all -- it organises an annual weekend
workshop for teachers and candidates but sees itself mostly as an umbrella
organisation otherwise. Its main reason for existence is to put the German
SCD scene on the RSCDS radar screen, and to give the German dance groups a
voice (and vote) in the AGM. We also manage to offer Society membership at
slightly lower annual rates than direct HQ membership would be, which may
account for some of the branch's popularity.

You can get all the dancing you require without having to join the Society --
hereabouts Society membership is more of a thing for the more dedicated
dancers and teachers, but not even all teachers are members. We're trying to
get the point across that the Society is worth supporting by emphasising the
contributions the Society makes to the SCD community, and hope that more
people will feel they want to contribute back. We do not expect that *every*
dancer will bite.

I suspect that, in Germany, the change proposed by New Zealand Branch will not
really matter one way or the other as, de facto, the arrangement that would
result is already in force: You don't get to be a branch member unless you
are a Society member at the same time, but pretty much the *only* reason to
join the branch in the first place is to join the Society -- whether you are
a branch member or not will not make any difference whatsoever in your
day-to-day dancing. Hence there is no real pressure on the branch to accept
branch-only members (correct me if I'm wrong, Martina), and so the whole
thing is, to all intents and purposes, a non-issue. This may be different in
places where an RSCDS branch is the only organisation promoting SCD, and
Lara's caveat about running two committees in parallel applies.

Personally, I think the NZ branch proposal should be accepted. It may be that
some people will cancel their Society membership once they no longer need it
to be local branch members -- but we should see this as what it is, namely
that the Society does not look worth supporting to them. It is a signal that
we (the Society members) have failed to communicate what the Society is
about. Is it really better to carry people on the books who say »I'm a member
of the Society because I must« than people who say »I'm a member of the
Society because I like what the Society is doing and want to contribute«? The
first simply serves to prop up membership statistics and annual fees without
actually promoting SCD. And if there is a dearth of people of the second kind
then this must be addressed by emphasising the work of the Society and how
people's talents and team spirit can fit in and will be welcomed, not by
coerced membership. The proposed change would free branches from having to
sell Society membership to prospective branch members up front, and would
give them leeway to make Society membership attractive to those people who
really mean it once they know what they're getting themselves into. In an
ideal world, every member of a branch would also be a Society member but not
because it is mandatory but because it is the obvious thing to do once you
are in the branch. Let's work on that.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
A man about to speak the truth should keep one foot in the stirrup.
-- Old Mongolian Saying

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53898 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 09:14:23 · Top

Am I right in thinking that there is a general belief in some areas that
affiliated SCD-groups in a certain area are affiliated to the branch in that
area - and not, as is really the case, directly to the RSCDS? This thread
seems to confirm that.

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Anselm Lingnau [mailto:anselm@strathspey.org]
Sent: 20 October 2008 23:44
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Mike Briggs wrote:

> Could someone point me to the provision(s), if any, in the Society's
> constitution that prohibit(s) someone from being a club member if that
> person is not also a Society member?

The Society is not in a position to prevent people from joining random
*other*
dance clubs. We're not a religion or a nation state.

What we *can* do is stipulate who gets to be a member of a Local Association
(commonly called a "branch"), as LAs need to enter into a "license
agreement"
with the Society as a prerequisite to actually becoming an LA, and we don't
license groups of people if they don't agree to play by the Rules. The
Rules,
section VI.2, decree that

"A proposed Local Association/Branch may be licensed by the Society
provided that the following conditions are fulfilled.

(a) All members of the Local Association/Branch must be members of the
Society.

..."

thus unless the prospective LA exhibits a constitution that makes Society
membership mandatory for their members they will not be licensed. End of
story.

The motion put forward by New Zealand Branch is looking to get this changed
(among other things), although the actual proposed change in Appendix D of
the 2008 AGM agenda does not, in fact, seem get rid of clause (a), which I'd
assume would be necessary for the change to work -- it does insert a new
clause (b) stipulating that all branch *office bearers* must be members of
the Society, but if one presumes that one needs to be a member of the branch
to be an office bearer, what the new (b) does would automatically follow
from
clause (a), anyway. But then again I don't even play a lawyer on TV, so what
do I know?

The constitution is available as
http://www.rscds.org/uploads-work-in-progress/Constitution%20-%20Rules%20Nov
%2006.pdf
and the 2008 AGM agenda can be found at
http://www.rscds.org/agm-2007-public-material/02AGM2008FinalAgendaV2.pdf/at_
download/file .
(It beats me why one would need to be logged in as a member to be able to
access the agenda, which is in a folder called "public material" alongside
all sorts of other items that are, in fact, accessible to non-members, and
pertains to a meeting that is, by law, open to the general public. The
caveat
at the end of the previous paragraph applies.)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
After all, all he did was string together a lot of old, well-known
quotations.
-- Henry Louis Mencken, on
Shakespeare

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53899 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 09:25:56 · Top

Pia wrote:

> Am I right in thinking that there is a general belief in some areas that
> affiliated SCD-groups in a certain area are affiliated to the branch in
> that area - and not, as is really the case, directly to the RSCDS? This
> thread seems to confirm that.

Not from my posting you don't -- it doesn't talk about affiliated groups at
all!

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
-- A. H. Weiler

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53901 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 10:05:03 · Top

And I didn't mention any names - it was a general query resulting from the
thread, and information gleaned over the last couple of years :>)

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Anselm Lingnau [mailto:anselm@strathspey.org]
Sent: 21 October 2008 08:26
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Pia wrote:

> Am I right in thinking that there is a general belief in some areas that
> affiliated SCD-groups in a certain area are affiliated to the branch in
> that area - and not, as is really the case, directly to the RSCDS? This
> thread seems to confirm that.

Not from my posting you don't -- it doesn't talk about affiliated groups at
all!

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
-- A. H.
Weiler

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53905 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 10:20:51 · Top

No, but I still think that the issue wasn't about affiliated groups. The
clubs Mike was talking about are presumably entirely independant from
the RSCDS, but interact with the local branch due to geographical
proximity and a number of members in common.

Sophie

Pia wrote:
> And I didn't mention any names - it was a general query resulting from the
> thread, and information gleaned over the last couple of years :>)
>
> Pia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anselm Lingnau [mailto:anselm@strathspey.org]
> Sent: 21 October 2008 08:26
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)
>
> Pia wrote:
>
>
>> Am I right in thinking that there is a general belief in some areas that
>> affiliated SCD-groups in a certain area are affiliated to the branch in
>> that area - and not, as is really the case, directly to the RSCDS? This
>> thread seems to confirm that.
>>
>
> Not from my posting you don't -- it doesn't talk about affiliated groups at
> all!
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
> -- A. H.
> Weiler
>
>
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53912 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 14:14:56 · Top

Not necessarily - I think there are groups out there who believe they can
only be affiliated to the RSCDS by going through a local branch, because
that is what they have been told at some stage in their history. What I
don't know about is: Are there branches out there -who have groups
believing that they are affiliated to the RSCDS, but who in reality are only
'affilliated' to the branch?

Just as there are branches that believe that their dancers must pay RSCDS
fees through their branch, even if those members are members of RSCDS
through another branch (causing members to have to pay multiple RSCDS fees).

Plus I have recently even heard of a branch who will only accept members for
RSCDS through their own AGM - i.e. a potential RSCDS membership for an
individual has to be accepted by the branch at their AGM. As you have to be
an RSCDS member to become a branch member, and you can only do that once a
year - recruitment is a bit convoluted perhaps. Oh yes - and there's also
the affiliated group members who think that they can only be RSCDS member
through HQ, as they are a group and therefore cannot join a branch as
members.

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Sophie Rickebusch [mailto:sophie.rickebusch@o2.co.uk]
Sent: 21 October 2008 09:21
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

No, but I still think that the issue wasn't about affiliated groups. The
clubs Mike was talking about are presumably entirely independant from
the RSCDS, but interact with the local branch due to geographical
proximity and a number of members in common.

Sophie

Pia wrote:
> And I didn't mention any names - it was a general query resulting from the
> thread, and information gleaned over the last couple of years :>)
>
> Pia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anselm Lingnau [mailto:anselm@strathspey.org]
> Sent: 21 October 2008 08:26
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)
>
> Pia wrote:
>
>
>> Am I right in thinking that there is a general belief in some areas that
>> affiliated SCD-groups in a certain area are affiliated to the branch in
>> that area - and not, as is really the case, directly to the RSCDS? This
>> thread seems to confirm that.
>>
>
> Not from my posting you don't -- it doesn't talk about affiliated groups
at
> all!
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
> -- A. H.
> Weiler
>
>
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53913 · Cord Walter · 21 Oct 2008 14:40:17 · Top

Pia schrieb:
> Not necessarily - I think there are groups out there who believe they can
> only be affiliated to the RSCDS by going through a local branch, because

<snip> several membership types <snip>

> through HQ, as they are a group and therefore cannot join a branch as
> members.

OK, you have me competely befuddled now [1] regarding the different
RSCDS membership types (HQ, branch, affiliation &c.)

Can someone here give me a quick outline of the different types? "RSCDS
Membership for Dummies", so to speak...

Bye,

-cord

[1] Even a bit flummoxed. The english language has IMHO a nice
collection of words for the german "verwirrt" ;)

--
Cord Walter
email: cord.walter@gmx.de
Public PGP-Key available on request

Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe:
http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.truecrypt.org/
...und überhaupt: http://www.FreiheitstattAngst.de

RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Message 53914 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 15:01:02 · Top

I'll try - I'm sure someone out there will correct me if I get it wrong :>)

RSCDS - Membership = individual dancers.

You can belong to RSCDS by:

Joining a branch and pay your RSCDS membership via them.
Joining HQ and pay membership directly to the RSCDS.
Be a Life Member - you paid x amount many years ago, and am a member of
RSCDS for life (i.e you can move branch, and really have paid for your RSCDS
membership already)
Be a Long Term Member - you paid x amount many years ago and am a member
of RSCDS for 15 years from that time (i.e you can move branch, but don't
have to pay for your RSCDS membership until your time is up).

RSCDS - Organisation = Branches
Branches/Local associations make up the structure of the RSCDS - and
therefore have voting rights at the AGM depending on how many individual
RSCDS members the branch have.
HQ is not a branch and therefore has no voting rights.

Furthermore - Groups can affiliate to the RSCDS - they have no voting rights
at the RSCDS AGM and it doesn't matter if people are members of the RSCDS or
not.

I think that's it - what I was trying to point out was that various branches
have themselves various membership regulations, which may just be something
that should be looked at first of all, as they perhaps could be improved
upon :>)

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Cord Walter [mailto:cord.walter@snafu.de]
Sent: 21 October 2008 13:40
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS membership requirement (was RSCDS AGM motions)

Pia schrieb:
> Not necessarily - I think there are groups out there who believe they can
> only be affiliated to the RSCDS by going through a local branch, because

<snip> several membership types <snip>

> through HQ, as they are a group and therefore cannot join a branch as
> members.

OK, you have me competely befuddled now [1] regarding the different
RSCDS membership types (HQ, branch, affiliation &c.)

Can someone here give me a quick outline of the different types? "RSCDS
Membership for Dummies", so to speak...

Bye,

-cord

[1] Even a bit flummoxed. The english language has IMHO a nice
collection of words for the german "verwirrt" ;)

--
Cord Walter
email: cord.walter@gmx.de
Public PGP-Key available on request

Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe:
http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.truecrypt.org/
...und überhaupt: http://www.FreiheitstattAngst.de

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53915 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 15:26:54 · Top

Pia wrote:

> [deleted]

Wow. The amount of confusion is absolutely astonishing. It seems there is room
for (tadaaa!!)

ANSELM'S LITTLE RSCDS MEMBERSHIP/BRANCHES/AFFILIATION FAQ
=========================================================

Please point out any errors or omissions. You may want to have a copy of the
RSCDS constitution and rules handy for reference. This is available from the
RSCDS web site at http://www.rscds.org/ . I may put this on the Strathspey
web site in a few days' time if there is interest; if HQ wants to pick this
up and run with it, feel free.

Membership
----------

Q. What kinds of Society membership are there?

A. The only kind available now is annual individual membership. This is £17 if
you become a member directly through RSCDS headquarters; if you become a
member of a branch the branch gets to pay a £10 capitation fee but may put
some money on top to cover its own activities. You need to be 16 years of age
to join.

There used to be 10-year »long-term« memberships at 10 times the price of
annual membership at the time the 10 years started; this did not look like
huge savings up-front, but basically this was a bet by the member against the
Society that annual dues would increase during their 10-year tenure. This bet
was invariably won by the member.

There also used to be a »life« membership, which must have been a wonderful
deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't been for
15 years or so.

There is a motion on the table for the 2008 AGM to introduce various levels of
membership as in youth, young adult, and couple-living-together, at different
discounted prices and benefit/privilege levels. We'll see how this comes out.

Q. What is better, headquarters or branch membership?

Branch membership. Headquarters is not a branch and thus does not get to send
voting delegates to the Society AGM, hence headquarters members have no
representation there. Before you dress up as a Native American and throw tea
chests from ships into Boston harbour, though, it is probably easier to join
a branch instead. This may also get you additional benefits like a branch
news letter, lots of local friends and acquaintances, and discounts on branch
activities.

Branches/Local Associations
---------------------------

Q. What is the difference between a »branch« and a »local association«?

A. None. It turns out that »local association« (LA) is the official name for
what used to be called the RSCDS branches. This change came about because the
Society had to ensure, for legal reasons, that the RSCDS branches were
independent of RSCDS headquarters -- the idea being that, for example, if a
branch went bankrupt, RSCDS headquarters would not be left liable for any
outstanding debts of that branch. The situation nowadays is that LAs are
legally independent entities that license, among other things, the right to
use the RSCDS name and logo from RSCDS headquarters. We still call
them »branches«, though.

Q. How do RSCDS branches come into being?

A. You get together with like-minded people in your area and convince the
Society that you should be called a »branch«. This usually means agreeing to
structure one's operations along the lines of a »model constitution« that the
Society provides, and executing a »model license agreement« with the Society,
all of which should be available from RSCDS headquarters. Other conditions
include promising to behave, and to submit regular reports from the branch's
AGM. The full chapter and verse is in section VI of the Society's »Rules«.
(As a matter of fact you just need to convince two members of the Management
Board, one of whom must be a Society office-bearer.)

Q. What do you mean »model« constitution/license agreement?

A. The RSCDS has certain ideas about how a branch should be organised, which
are contained in the »model constitution«. This document is, however, exactly
that -- a model that may have to be adapted to local laws and procedures. The
same goes for the license agreement. The exact content of the documents in
question is open to negotiation.

Q. What about the two-teacher/two-class rule?

A. Purportedly, it used to be that a branch needed to include two
RSCDS-certificated teachers, and hold two dance classes separated in space or
time. However there is nothing of the sort written in the current Rules.
There are branches that do not hold regular classes at all, and it says
nowhere that a branch must actually have any members at all, let alone a set
number of members with an RSCDS teacher certificate.

Q. Must I be a member of the Society in order to become a member of a branch?

A. As of now, yes (this is Rule VI.2.a). There is a motion on the table for
the 2008 AGM to lift this restriction.

Q. Must I be a member of a branch in order to become a member of the Society?

A. No. You can be a »headquarters« member. However, the headquarters
membership do not get to send delegates to the AGM, thus do not get to vote
(this is section 43 of the RSCDS constitution).

Q. Must I live near where a branch operates in order to become a branch
member?

A. That depends on the branch. Many branches aren't very particular in this
regard. There is also the »International Branch« that accepts members from
anywhere.

Q. Can I be a member of several branches at the same time?

A. Certainly. The thing to watch out for is that you only need to be a member
of the Society *once*. Usually branches collect the annual membership fees on
the Society's behalf, so watch out that you only pay your RSCDS (non-branch)
dues once unless you are well-to-do and don't grudge the Society the extra
money -- we need it!

Affiliated Groups
-----------------

Q. What is an »affiliated group«?

A. An »affiliated group« is a dance group or club that elects to pay an annual
fee to the Society in order to show up in the Society's list of affiliated
groups. As an additional sweetener, the group gets a spare copy of the RSCDS
magazine.

Q. What is the difference between an »affiliated group« and a branch?

A. Branches agree to various things that the Society wants from them and get
the right to use the RSCDS name and logo in return. Affiliated groups are
free to do whatever they please as long as they pay their annual fee and
don't get the right to use the RSCDS name and logo.

Q. How does a group get affiliated?

A. By applying to the Society and having the Management Board agree. There is
an annual fee.

Q. Do I need to be a Society member to join an affiliated group?

A. No; the Society doesn't mind whether you do or don't.

Q. Do members of an affiliated group automatically become members of the
Society?

A. No; if they want to join they have to do that themselves. However,
secretaries of affiliated groups often handle the required paperwork on
behalf of interested group members in order to become »headquarters« members
(see above). It may often be advisable to join a local branch instead if
there is one, or the International Branch, because headquarters members do
not have representation at the Society AGM.

Q. Is an affiliated group affiliated to the local branch or to RSCDS in
Edinburgh?

A. The latter. There is no official, Society-sanctioned way of becoming
affiliated to an RSCDS branch although it is probably a good idea, on general
principles, for an affiliated group to be on speaking terms with branches in
the vicinity, and vice-versa.

--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Perhaps [job security]'s the reason so many of these complex and crufty
systems are economically viable--and why so many academic systems aren't.
Academicians should remember to add a healthy helping of cruft and complexity
to their designs. -- Mark Kilgard

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53919 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 16:06:07 · Top

Seems very clear to me Anselm. The only thing I may add is that your
figures are out of date: as of the AGM last year, membership fees are
15 (branch) and 25 (HQ) GBP respectively.

Sophie

>----Original Message----
>From: anselm@strathspey.org
>Date: Oct 21, 2008 14:26
>To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>Subject: RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ (was: RSCDS
membership requirement)
>
>Pia wrote:
>
>> [deleted]
>
>Wow. The amount of confusion is absolutely astonishing. It seems
there is room
>for (tadaaa!!)
>
>ANSELM'S LITTLE RSCDS MEMBERSHIP/BRANCHES/AFFILIATION FAQ
>=========================================================
>
>Please point out any errors or omissions. You may want to have a copy
of the
>RSCDS constitution and rules handy for reference. This is available
from the
>RSCDS web site at http://www.rscds.org/ . I may put this on the
Strathspey
>web site in a few days' time if there is interest; if HQ wants to
pick this
>up and run with it, feel free.
>
>
>Membership
>----------
>
>Q. What kinds of Society membership are there?
>
>A. The only kind available now is annual individual membership. This
is £17 if
>you become a member directly through RSCDS headquarters; if you
become a
>member of a branch the branch gets to pay a £10 capitation fee but
may put
>some money on top to cover its own activities. You need to be 16
years of age
>to join.
>
>There used to be 10-year »long-term« memberships at 10 times the
price of
>annual membership at the time the 10 years started; this did not look
like
>huge savings up-front, but basically this was a bet by the member
against the
>Society that annual dues would increase during their 10-year tenure.
This bet
>was invariably won by the member.
>
>There also used to be a »life« membership, which must have been a
wonderful
>deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't
been for
>15 years or so.
>
>There is a motion on the table for the 2008 AGM to introduce various
levels of
>membership as in youth, young adult, and couple-living-together, at
different
>discounted prices and benefit/privilege levels. We'll see how this
comes out.
>
>Q. What is better, headquarters or branch membership?
>
>Branch membership. Headquarters is not a branch and thus does not get
to send
>voting delegates to the Society AGM, hence headquarters members have
no
>representation there. Before you dress up as a Native American and
throw tea
>chests from ships into Boston harbour, though, it is probably easier
to join
>a branch instead. This may also get you additional benefits like a
branch
>news letter, lots of local friends and acquaintances, and discounts
on branch
>activities.
>
>
>Branches/Local Associations
>---------------------------
>
>Q. What is the difference between a »branch« and a »local association
«?
>
>A. None. It turns out that »local association« (LA) is the official
name for
>what used to be called the RSCDS branches. This change came about
because the
>Society had to ensure, for legal reasons, that the RSCDS branches
were
>independent of RSCDS headquarters -- the idea being that, for
example, if a
>branch went bankrupt, RSCDS headquarters would not be left liable for
any
>outstanding debts of that branch. The situation nowadays is that LAs
are
>legally independent entities that license, among other things, the
right to
>use the RSCDS name and logo from RSCDS headquarters. We still call
>them »branches«, though.
>
>Q. How do RSCDS branches come into being?
>
>A. You get together with like-minded people in your area and convince
the
>Society that you should be called a »branch«. This usually means
agreeing to
>structure one's operations along the lines of a »model constitution«
that the
>Society provides, and executing a »model license agreement« with the
Society,
>all of which should be available from RSCDS headquarters. Other
conditions
>include promising to behave, and to submit regular reports from the
branch's
>AGM. The full chapter and verse is in section VI of the Society's »
Rules«.
>(As a matter of fact you just need to convince two members of the
Management
>Board, one of whom must be a Society office-bearer.)
>
>Q. What do you mean »model« constitution/license agreement?
>
>A. The RSCDS has certain ideas about how a branch should be
organised, which
>are contained in the »model constitution«. This document is, however,
exactly
>that -- a model that may have to be adapted to local laws and
procedures. The
>same goes for the license agreement. The exact content of the
documents in
>question is open to negotiation.
>
>Q. What about the two-teacher/two-class rule?
>
>A. Purportedly, it used to be that a branch needed to include two
>RSCDS-certificated teachers, and hold two dance classes separated in
space or
>time. However there is nothing of the sort written in the current
Rules.
>There are branches that do not hold regular classes at all, and it
says
>nowhere that a branch must actually have any members at all, let
alone a set
>number of members with an RSCDS teacher certificate.
>
>Q. Must I be a member of the Society in order to become a member of a
branch?
>
>A. As of now, yes (this is Rule VI.2.a). There is a motion on the
table for
>the 2008 AGM to lift this restriction.
>
>Q. Must I be a member of a branch in order to become a member of the
Society?
>
>A. No. You can be a »headquarters« member. However, the headquarters
>membership do not get to send delegates to the AGM, thus do not get
to vote
>(this is section 43 of the RSCDS constitution).
>
>Q. Must I live near where a branch operates in order to become a
branch
>member?
>
>A. That depends on the branch. Many branches aren't very particular
in this
>regard. There is also the »International Branch« that accepts members
from
>anywhere.
>
>Q. Can I be a member of several branches at the same time?
>
>A. Certainly. The thing to watch out for is that you only need to be
a member
>of the Society *once*. Usually branches collect the annual membership
fees on
>the Society's behalf, so watch out that you only pay your RSCDS (non-
branch)
>dues once unless you are well-to-do and don't grudge the Society the
extra
>money -- we need it!
>
>
>Affiliated Groups
>-----------------
>
>Q. What is an »affiliated group«?
>
>A. An »affiliated group« is a dance group or club that elects to pay
an annual
>fee to the Society in order to show up in the Society's list of
affiliated
>groups. As an additional sweetener, the group gets a spare copy of
the RSCDS
>magazine.
>
>Q. What is the difference between an »affiliated group« and a branch?
>
>A. Branches agree to various things that the Society wants from them
and get
>the right to use the RSCDS name and logo in return. Affiliated groups
are
>free to do whatever they please as long as they pay their annual fee
and
>don't get the right to use the RSCDS name and logo.
>
>Q. How does a group get affiliated?
>
>A. By applying to the Society and having the Management Board agree.
There is
>an annual fee.
>
>Q. Do I need to be a Society member to join an affiliated group?
>
>A. No; the Society doesn't mind whether you do or don't.
>
>Q. Do members of an affiliated group automatically become members of
the
>Society?
>
>A. No; if they want to join they have to do that themselves.
However,
>secretaries of affiliated groups often handle the required paperwork
on
>behalf of interested group members in order to become »headquarters«
members
>(see above). It may often be advisable to join a local branch instead
if
>there is one, or the International Branch, because headquarters
members do
>not have representation at the Society AGM.
>
>Q. Is an affiliated group affiliated to the local branch or to RSCDS
in
>Edinburgh?
>
>A. The latter. There is no official, Society-sanctioned way of
becoming
>affiliated to an RSCDS branch although it is probably a good idea, on
general
>principles, for an affiliated group to be on speaking terms with
branches in
>the vicinity, and vice-versa.
>
>--
>Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
>Perhaps [job security]'s the reason so many of these complex and
crufty
>systems are economically viable--and why so many academic systems
aren't.
>Academicians should remember to add a healthy helping of cruft and
complexity
>to their designs. --
Mark Kilgard
>

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53921 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Oct 2008 16:21:23 · Top

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> Seems very clear to me Anselm. The only thing I may add is that your
> figures are out of date: as of the AGM last year, membership fees are
> 15 (branch) and 25 (HQ) GBP respectively.

Thanks (also to Andrew Smith). I'll get that fixed before I put the document
online.

I got the numbers from the 2007-2008 finance report. Shame on me for not
scouring the RSCDS web site for the 2007 AGM minutes.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will
always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53922 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 16:29:53 · Top

I think we all know that you have other things to do :>)

PIa

-----Original Message-----
From: Anselm Lingnau [mailto:anselm@strathspey.org]
Sent: 21 October 2008 15:21
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> Seems very clear to me Anselm. The only thing I may add is that your
> figures are out of date: as of the AGM last year, membership fees are
> 15 (branch) and 25 (HQ) GBP respectively.

Thanks (also to Andrew Smith). I'll get that fixed before I put the document
online.

I got the numbers from the 2007-2008 finance report. Shame on me for not
scouring the RSCDS web site for the 2007 AGM minutes.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will
always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53924 · Andrew Smith · 21 Oct 2008 17:15:29 · Top

I like that Anselm.
It is an admirable and valuable summary, and thank you.
Just a couple of observations:
"As a matter of fact you just need to convince" the Management Board to
approve your Local Constitution; the "only two members" bit applies only to
the signing of the actual Licence agreement.
I agree that " it says nowhere that a branch must actually have any members
at all,", but as the definition of a Local Association/Branch is that it is
an association of members of the Society in a given area, surely if there
are no longer any members then de facto there is no longer a LA/Branch?
Best wishes, and thanks again.
I must admit to surprise that I did not find it easy to establish the
corrent subscription level from the Society web-site.
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ (was: RSCDS membership
requirement)

Pia wrote:

> [deleted]

Wow. The amount of confusion is absolutely astonishing. It seems there is
room
for (tadaaa!!)

ANSELM'S LITTLE RSCDS MEMBERSHIP/BRANCHES/AFFILIATION FAQ
=========================================================

Please point out any errors or omissions. You may want to have a copy of the
RSCDS constitution and rules handy for reference. This is available from the
RSCDS web site at http://www.rscds.org/ . I may put this on the Strathspey
web site in a few days' time if there is interest; if HQ wants to pick this
up and run with it, feel free.

Membership
----------

Q. What kinds of Society membership are there?

A. The only kind available now is annual individual membership. This is £17
if
you become a member directly through RSCDS headquarters; if you become a
member of a branch the branch gets to pay a £10 capitation fee but may put
some money on top to cover its own activities. You need to be 16 years of
age
to join.

There used to be 10-year »long-term« memberships at 10 times the price of
annual membership at the time the 10 years started; this did not look like
huge savings up-front, but basically this was a bet by the member against
the
Society that annual dues would increase during their 10-year tenure. This
bet
was invariably won by the member.

There also used to be a »life« membership, which must have been a wonderful
deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't been
for
15 years or so.

There is a motion on the table for the 2008 AGM to introduce various levels
of
membership as in youth, young adult, and couple-living-together, at
different
discounted prices and benefit/privilege levels. We'll see how this comes
out.

Q. What is better, headquarters or branch membership?

Branch membership. Headquarters is not a branch and thus does not get to
send
voting delegates to the Society AGM, hence headquarters members have no
representation there. Before you dress up as a Native American and throw tea
chests from ships into Boston harbour, though, it is probably easier to join
a branch instead. This may also get you additional benefits like a branch
news letter, lots of local friends and acquaintances, and discounts on
branch
activities.

Branches/Local Associations
---------------------------

Q. What is the difference between a »branch« and a »local association«?

A. None. It turns out that »local association« (LA) is the official name for
what used to be called the RSCDS branches. This change came about because
the
Society had to ensure, for legal reasons, that the RSCDS branches were
independent of RSCDS headquarters -- the idea being that, for example, if a
branch went bankrupt, RSCDS headquarters would not be left liable for any
outstanding debts of that branch. The situation nowadays is that LAs are
legally independent entities that license, among other things, the right to
use the RSCDS name and logo from RSCDS headquarters. We still call
them »branches«, though.

Q. How do RSCDS branches come into being?

A. You get together with like-minded people in your area and convince the
Society that you should be called a »branch«. This usually means agreeing to
structure one's operations along the lines of a »model constitution« that
the
Society provides, and executing a »model license agreement« with the
Society,
all of which should be available from RSCDS headquarters. Other conditions
include promising to behave, and to submit regular reports from the branch's
AGM. The full chapter and verse is in section VI of the Society's »Rules«.
(As a matter of fact you just need to convince two members of the Management
Board, one of whom must be a Society office-bearer.)

Q. What do you mean »model« constitution/license agreement?

A. The RSCDS has certain ideas about how a branch should be organised, which
are contained in the »model constitution«. This document is, however,
exactly
that -- a model that may have to be adapted to local laws and procedures.
The
same goes for the license agreement. The exact content of the documents in
question is open to negotiation.

Q. What about the two-teacher/two-class rule?

A. Purportedly, it used to be that a branch needed to include two
RSCDS-certificated teachers, and hold two dance classes separated in space
or
time. However there is nothing of the sort written in the current Rules.
There are branches that do not hold regular classes at all, and it says
nowhere that a branch must actually have any members at all, let alone a set
number of members with an RSCDS teacher certificate.

Q. Must I be a member of the Society in order to become a member of a
branch?

A. As of now, yes (this is Rule VI.2.a). There is a motion on the table for
the 2008 AGM to lift this restriction.

Q. Must I be a member of a branch in order to become a member of the
Society?

A. No. You can be a »headquarters« member. However, the headquarters
membership do not get to send delegates to the AGM, thus do not get to vote
(this is section 43 of the RSCDS constitution).

Q. Must I live near where a branch operates in order to become a branch
member?

A. That depends on the branch. Many branches aren't very particular in this
regard. There is also the »International Branch« that accepts members from
anywhere.

Q. Can I be a member of several branches at the same time?

A. Certainly. The thing to watch out for is that you only need to be a
member
of the Society *once*. Usually branches collect the annual membership fees
on
the Society's behalf, so watch out that you only pay your RSCDS (non-branch)
dues once unless you are well-to-do and don't grudge the Society the extra
money -- we need it!

Affiliated Groups
-----------------

Q. What is an »affiliated group«?

A. An »affiliated group« is a dance group or club that elects to pay an
annual
fee to the Society in order to show up in the Society's list of affiliated
groups. As an additional sweetener, the group gets a spare copy of the RSCDS
magazine.

Q. What is the difference between an »affiliated group« and a branch?

A. Branches agree to various things that the Society wants from them and get
the right to use the RSCDS name and logo in return. Affiliated groups are
free to do whatever they please as long as they pay their annual fee and
don't get the right to use the RSCDS name and logo.

Q. How does a group get affiliated?

A. By applying to the Society and having the Management Board agree. There
is
an annual fee.

Q. Do I need to be a Society member to join an affiliated group?

A. No; the Society doesn't mind whether you do or don't.

Q. Do members of an affiliated group automatically become members of the
Society?

A. No; if they want to join they have to do that themselves. However,
secretaries of affiliated groups often handle the required paperwork on
behalf of interested group members in order to become »headquarters« members
(see above). It may often be advisable to join a local branch instead if
there is one, or the International Branch, because headquarters members do
not have representation at the Society AGM.

Q. Is an affiliated group affiliated to the local branch or to RSCDS in
Edinburgh?

A. The latter. There is no official, Society-sanctioned way of becoming
affiliated to an RSCDS branch although it is probably a good idea, on
general
principles, for an affiliated group to be on speaking terms with branches in
the vicinity, and vice-versa.

--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
Perhaps [job security]'s the reason so many of these complex and crufty
systems are economically viable--and why so many academic systems aren't.
Academicians should remember to add a healthy helping of cruft and
complexity
to their designs. -- Mark
Kilgard

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53926 · redrose_solutions · 21 Oct 2008 18:29:31 · Top

It's interesting that the membership fee for Branch members was
increased by GBP 5 whereas that for HQ members rose by GBP 8. I have
not yet heard a convincing explanation for this. At last year's AGM we
were told that each member "costs" the RSCDS something over GBP 17, i.
e. more than the current Branch membership fee. Are HQ members
subsidising everyone else?

Susi

Susi Mayr
Vienna (Austria) & Surrey (UK)

>Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
>
>> Seems very clear to me Anselm. The only thing I may add is that
your
>> figures are out of date: as of the AGM last year, membership fees
are
>> 15 (branch) and 25 (HQ) GBP respectively.

Free Games for all the family - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

________________________________________________

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53927 · mlamontbrown · 21 Oct 2008 18:59:30 · Top

Anselm wrote:

> There also used to be a >life< membership, which must have been a wonderful
> deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't been for
> 15 years or so.

Life membership ceased to be an option circa 35 years ago, which is one of the
reasons membership is declining but subscription income is increasing - we are
replacing Life Members (who don't pay anything to the Society) with "fewer" Annual
Members, but who do.

One of the things people should consider is that not all branches are the same -
there are some weekly dance classes which are a branch - there are about 60 branches
with a membership of less than 50, of which 26 have less than 25 members; There are
16 branches with over 200 members, of which New Zealand is the largest, with a
membership of over 950. So what works for one branch may not be suitable for the
others - a small group operating in the middle of the US has very different problems
from a large branch in the Canadian North East (where there are lots of similar
branches.) Some branches were set up as umbrella organisations, to look after the
groups that were already established in the area, (New Zealand is the ultimate
umbrella organisation, covering the entire country from north to south).

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53931 · Cord Walter · 21 Oct 2008 20:55:15 · Top

Anselm Lingnau schrieb:
> Pia wrote:
>
>> [deleted]
>
> Wow. The amount of confusion is absolutely astonishing. It seems there is room
> for (tadaaa!!)
>
> ANSELM'S LITTLE RSCDS MEMBERSHIP/BRANCHES/AFFILIATION FAQ
> =========================================================

Now, that was most illuminating :)

Thanks to you, Anselm and to Pia for enlightening me!

Bye,

cord

--
Cord Walter
email: cord.walter@gmx.de

Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe:
http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.truecrypt.org/
...und überhaupt: http://www.FreiheitstattAngst.de

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53938 · john.m.sturrock · 21 Oct 2008 22:25:46 · Top

Anselm wrote : -

There also used to be a »life« membership, which must have been a wonderful
deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't been
for
15 years or so.

It is a small point, but the last Life Membership was actually sold on the
30th of June 1976. There exists correspondence in the basement at Coates
Crescent debating whether dancers who posted their application on the 29th
of June, but which did not arrive at Headquarters until the 1st of July
should, or should not, be granted this (very valuable) concession. The
percentage has dwindled during the last few years, but today, 32 years after
the event, over 10% of the total membership are still Life Members.

John M Sturrock
Cupar UK

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53939 · Pia Walker · 21 Oct 2008 22:29:28 · Top

Hardy lot - those early SCD dancers :>)

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: john.m.sturrock [mailto:john.m.sturrock@btinternet.com]
Sent: 21 October 2008 21:26
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ (was: RSCDS
membership requirement)

Anselm wrote : -

There also used to be a "life" membership, which must have been a wonderful
deal when it was still available. Sadly, it no longer is, and hasn't been
for
15 years or so.

It is a small point, but the last Life Membership was actually sold on the
30th of June 1976. There exists correspondence in the basement at Coates
Crescent debating whether dancers who posted their application on the 29th
of June, but which did not arrive at Headquarters until the 1st of July
should, or should not, be granted this (very valuable) concession. The
percentage has dwindled during the last few years, but today, 32 years after
the event, over 10% of the total membership are still Life Members.

John M Sturrock
Cupar UK

RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53942 · seonaid.gent · 22 Oct 2008 00:44:03 · Top

John Sturrock wrote:

>The percentage has dwindled during the last few years, but today, 32 years after
>the event, over 10% of the total membership are still  Life Members.

Of course there are lots of Life Members.

Aged 18 I had a much higher level of spare cash than I do now.  One of the things I did when I turned 18 was went round all the groups that I was interested in and took out life membership.  Hence I am a life member of the National Trust for Scotland, Historic Soctland and the Scottish Railway Preservation Society.

I also went to the RSCDS to become a life member there.  However, that option was not available to me, so I did the next best thing and became a long term member - that expired this summer.

Yes, the previous life membership did offer a significant discount which was probably too great.  But I still maintain that there are a lot of young dancers out there who would be more likely to pay a significant sum of money to the society to become life members, but who shy away from paying a yearly subscription.

Say the society set Life membership at 30 times the yearly amount.  At present this would give the society £450 - not at all unreasonable for a lifetime of enjoying your activity.  Say the society then decides it needs £50 of my membership to do what it is planning now, that leaves £400 to invest.  It only needs an interest rate of 8.5% for the society to have made more out of my money over the course of the 30 years than if I continued to pay my £15 every year.  It should be possible for the society to get a far better return on investments than that.

On top of that I feel that I have made more of a commitment to the society, and therefore take a greater interest in what is happening.  As a young person, I feel more wanted by the society.  Having paid that money up front, I'm therefore less inclined to worry when I have to pay my class fees, because I'm not having to worry about paying my membership too.  In the same way, I regularly go to historic properties owned by the two organisations I belong to.  I don't have to pay my entrance fee every time, so I'm far more inclined to pay for the guide book or have my cup of tea there rather than the nice cafe that we passed on the way.

In my mind, not having some form of long term membership says to me that most of the people in this group are too old to worry about what is going to be happening in a few years.  Yes there will be people who outlive their membership if you have life membership, but if the society is going to move forward it needs the big income that large numbers of life memberships can bring.  If the money is used wisely by those in charge we should see a society that we are proud to belong to and therefore promote, so we then get more members and the society starts getting into an upward spiral, rather than the current situation.

OK, so I'm getting off the soapbox now,

Seonaid
Markinch, Fife


Life Membership (was RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ)

Message 53949 · campbell · 22 Oct 2008 11:06:54 · Top

Seonaid Anderson wrote:

>In my mind, not having some form of long term membership says to me that >most of the people in this group are too old to worry about what is going to be >happening in a few years....... If the money is used wisely by those in charge we >should see a society that we are proud to belong to and therefore promote, so >we then get more members and the society starts getting into an upward >spiral, rather than the current situation.
>OK, so I'm getting off the soapbox now,

Hardly a soapbox way of making your point Seonaid and a refreshingly different way of viewing the life membership situation. To me it was an open and shut case until I read your email - now I am not so sure. We need to make the Society (and SCD in general) more appealing to the younger generation - life membership might well be one way. Another way seems to me to be to emphasise the wonderful doorway SCD offers to young people to visit and get to know people from other countries. In our tour of Scotland this May, a major benefit was feeling we were a group of people meeting new friends, rather than a group of tourists seeing the country. A young person from Cape Town could go round the UK (and probably the US, Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand) and meet local friendly people everywhere they went, sharing a past-time which is instantaneously a common language. So much more rewarding than dumping down in a backpackers and meeting other Capetonians doing the same thing!! Perhaps the RSCDS needs to concentrate on promoting this benefit. A centralised directory of all SCD groups world-wide (hunt them down, offer a new form of affiliation that requires a minimal fee (₤1?) and gives a free listing in the directory? Perhaps a young person's life membership card that allows one free entry to all affiliated organisations anywhere in the world (I certainly don’t charge overseas visitors when they come to dance with us).

Got any space on that soapbox Seonaid, there is a Gentleman needing room!!

Campbell Tyler
Cape Town

Life Membership (was RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ)

Message 53950 · Bob McArthur · 22 Oct 2008 13:49:44 · Top


Campbell Tyler in his posting re; Seonaid Gent's posting raises some of the issues I would wish to support.

In 2007 my group Scosha visited a Polish town festival (Bedzin) and conducted some dance workshops and public sessions at the invitation of the local Mayor and council. I was asked by some of the young dancers present if we could help them develop so in 2008 I agreed to help with two local festivals.

Pia Walker and Fiona Grant conducted the workshops at the Dybuk Festival in Pyskowice during July (with Luke and Adam Brady as musicians).

Pia and Marilyn Watson together with Nic Meller, Fiona Campbell and Annabel Harrison ran the workshops at Festival Zamek in Bedzin at the end of August.

Both festivals attracted students from all over Poland and were a fantastic success with about seven groups represented at both festivals and we have been invited to repeat the workshops during 2009.

Importantly we managed to demonstrate to the young groups that we are willing to help them in their development and we are gradually building up the information about SCD opportunities in Poland.

One new group in Krakow (Celtica-SCD) have now listed their details in Grand Chain and we hope that the others will follow suit as they develop and have the confidence to welcome visitors to join the class sessions.

We have been promoting the concept of them affilliating as groups in the future which I believe is £35 per year, hopefully some will be encouraged into RSCDS membership eventually, most groups are about 10 to 15 member strong at the moment and are happy to mix and work together at any workshop. (Pia's requirement - split them up!)

Basically what we have found is that generally there are so many young dancers wishing to experience and learn SCD in Poland and as most of the interested groups are unlisted/unknown the 'powers that be' really need to examine why our society website does not seem to attract enquiries or group listings in some parts of the world and encourage them to want to belong to the Society.

Roll on 2009!

Bob McArthur
Scosha Group
Bournemouth, UK

> From: campbell@tyler.co.za> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: Life Membership (was RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ) > Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:06:54 +0200> > > Seonaid Anderson wrote:> > >In my mind, not having some form of long term membership says to me that >most of the people in this group are too old to worry about what is going to be >happening in a few years....... If the money is used wisely by those in charge we >should see a society that we are proud to belong to and therefore promote, so >we then get more members and the society starts getting into an upward >spiral, rather than the current situation.> >OK, so I'm getting off the soapbox now,> > Hardly a soapbox way of making your point Seonaid and a refreshingly different way of viewing the life membership situation. To me it was an open and shut case until I read your email - now I am not so sure. We need to make the Society (and SCD in general) more appealing to the younger generation - life membership might well be one way. Another way seems to me to be to emphasise the wonderful doorway SCD offers to young people to visit and get to know people from other countries. In our tour of Scotland this May, a major benefit was feeling we were a group of people meeting new friends, rather than a group of tourists seeing the country. A young person from Cape Town could go round the UK (and probably the US, Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand) and meet local friendly people everywhere they went, sharing a past-time which is instantaneously a common language. So much more rewarding than dumping down in a backpackers and meeting other Capetonians doing the same thing!! Perhaps the RSCDS needs to concentrate on promoting this benefit. A centralised directory of all SCD groups world-wide (hunt them down, offer a new form of affiliation that requires a minimal fee (₤1?) and gives a free listing in the directory? Perhaps a young person's life membership card that allows one free entry to all affiliated organisations anywhere in the world (I certainly don’t charge overseas visitors when they come to dance with us).> > Got any space on that soapbox Seonaid, there is a Gentleman needing room!!> > Campbell Tyler> Cape Town> >
_________________________________________________________________
Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip
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RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ

Message 53951 · Louise Fordyce · 22 Oct 2008 20:10:30 · Top

Ok, I am partly on the same "young" soap box as Seonaid in that it would be great to just pay a one off fee and not have to worry about paying again to do something that I enjoy. But, at age 18 I certainly didn't have the money to fork out £450, and still 11 years later I could not justify myself paying it. Although I am quite happy to easily find the amount once a year. If there was a guarantee that the funds would be saved and grow with the addition of the interest then that would be great, but in the current banking climate can that be assured and can those in charge of the money in 20 + years time be relied on to use the money in the same way as it was intended?

Louise
Spain> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:44:03 +0000> From: seonaid.gent@talk21.com> Subject: Re: RSCDS Membership/Branches/Affiliation FAQ (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> > John Sturrock wrote:> > >The percentage has dwindled during the last few years, but today, 32 years after > >the event, over 10% of the total membership are still Life Members.> > Of course there are lots of Life Members.> > Aged 18 I had a much higher level of spare cash than I do now. One of the things I did when I turned 18 was went round all the groups that I was interested in and took out life membership. Hence I am a life member of the National Trust for Scotland, Historic Soctland and the Scottish Railway Preservation Society.> > I also went to the RSCDS to become a life member there. However, that option was not available to me, so I did the next best thing and became a long term member - that expired this summer.> > Yes, the previous life membership did offer a significant discount which was probably too great. But I still maintain that there are a lot of young dancers out there who would be more likely to pay a significant sum of money to the society to become life members, but who shy away from paying a yearly subscription.> > Say the society set Life membership at 30 times the yearly amount. At present this would give the society £450 - not at all unreasonable for a lifetime of enjoying your activity. Say the society then decides it needs £50 of my membership to do what it is planning now, that leaves £400 to invest. It only needs an interest rate of 8.5% for the society to have made more out of my money over the course of the 30 years than if I continued to pay my £15 every year. It should be possible for the society to get a far better return on investments than that.> > On top of that I feel that I have made more of a commitment to the society, and therefore take a greater interest in what is happening. As a young person, I feel more wanted by the society. Having paid that money up front, I'm therefore less inclined to worry when I have to pay my class fees, because I'm not having to worry about paying my membership too. In the same way, I regularly go to historic properties owned by the two organisations I belong to. I don't have to pay my entrance fee every time, so I'm far more inclined to pay for the guide book or have my cup of tea there rather than the nice cafe that we passed on the way.> > In my mind, not having some form of long term membership says to me that most of the people in this group are too old to worry about what is going to be happening in a few years. Yes there will be people who outlive their membership if you have life membership, but if the society is going to move forward it needs the big income that large numbers of life memberships can bring. If the money is used wisely by those in charge we should see a society that we are proud to belong to and therefore promote, so we then get more members and the society starts getting into an upward spiral, rather than the current situation.> > OK, so I'm getting off the soapbox now,> > Seonaid> Markinch, Fife> > >
_________________________________________________________________
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Life Membership

Message 53952 · Gary Knox · 22 Oct 2008 22:59:32 · Top

I have worked for non-profits and been involved in management of endowment
funds. We have found that a 4% spend rate (4% of the principal balance) on a
well diversified portfolio (average earnings run about 7% - 8% over time)
allows the principal (and withdrawals) to grow at about the same as the cost
of living.

For the RSCDS to do this several conditions would have to be met: expenses
would have to be held to a cost of living rate of increase (not successfully
done over the last few years), a minimum number of life subscribers would
have to be found to justify setting up and managing the fund (probably 600 x
£400 = £240,000, although twice that would be better), and I am not sure
what laws in the UK may apply.

Gary
San Francisco Branch
______________________
Gary Knox
3673 Stoneglen South
Richmond, CA 94806-5261
gary@reeljig.com

Life Membership

Message 53953 · alan mair · 23 Oct 2008 10:17:47 · Top

"Gary Knox" wrote-

"I have worked for non-profits and been involved in management of endowment
funds. We have found that a 4% spend rate (4% of the principal balance) on a
well diversified portfolio (average earnings run about 7% - 8% over time)
allows the principal (and withdrawals) to grow at about the same as the cost
of living."

That is broadly in line with the 30X annual suggested by Seonaid but that is
only the start. Branch membership would also have to be paid (or the HQ
surcharge). With more awareness (than in 1976) of where the capital was
held, it would be much more difficult to continue with the notion that,
having paid for Life membership in the Society, a member could move his/her
LA membership without any money following - a likely scenario, I would have
thought, if we are talking about 18 year-olds.

"For the RSCDS to do this several conditions would have to be met: expenses
would have to be held to a cost of living rate of increase (not successfully
done over the last few years), a minimum number of life subscribers would
have to be found to justify setting up and managing the fund (probably 600 x
£400 = £240,000, although twice that would be better), and I am not sure
what laws in the UK may apply."

The problem with this for the Society (and the branches) is, as Garry
suggests, that the organisation takes over the role of administering and
guaranteeing financial dealings on behalf of members. I do not think a group
of dance enthusiasts should be expected to do that.

If the Society was operating on an overdraft, it would be a different
matter. The real problem is the idiosyncratic and outdated form of
membership with which we persist. All the other organisations the Seonaid
mentions (I am fairly sure) offer direct membership with the central
organisation for those who wish it. This means that, for UK taxpayers, tax
relief can be claimed, and direct debits can be set up which, again in my
view, would give young people (I was certainly not cash rich at 18) a method
of showing commitment to the Society which the "bus pass generation" could
also subscribe to.

Alan
Cupar
Fife

Life Membership

Message 53955 · Anselm Lingnau · 23 Oct 2008 11:45:08 · Top

Alan Mair wrote:

> The problem with this for the Society (and the branches) is, as Garry
> suggests, that the organisation takes over the role of administering and
> guaranteeing financial dealings on behalf of members. I do not think a
> group of dance enthusiasts should be expected to do that.

This I think is a very valid point. We are apparently stretched enough as we
are just trying to manage our dancing properly. Moving into funds management
on an even larger scale than what we do today might mean hiring even more
staff (or paying external consultants) and the money for that would also have
to be found somewhere.

Also, with the life membership issue we're back to economic arguments for
Society membership; as a 20-year-old I'm basically betting that I have 60
years of dancing in front of me and paying only 30 years' worth of Society
dues makes a lot of sense as an investment. But how many people at 20 are
ready to commit to what they will be doing 10 years later, let alone 60, and
to back that up with a large chunk of money? Next week you may get together
with the boy or girl of your dreams who is perfect in every respect except
for a violent dislike of SCD. You may get a taxing job, start a family, move
abroad -- all these things do not preclude taking part in SCD, but experience
shows that for many people many of the other concerns take priority over
dancing.

We need to get those 20-year-olds interested in the Society in the first
place, and the way to do this is not by offering cheap life membership when
our current problem is to get them (and many others) to a point where they
will consider *annual* membership at least for a few years. Life membership
in the Society may be a great and wondrous thing but I can spontaneously
think of half a dozen other ideas that should still be attractive to young
people but would be more in keeping with the aims of the Society at large,
benefit the rest of the membership as well, and be less expensive to boot.

> The real problem is the idiosyncratic and outdated form of
> membership with which we persist. All the other organisations the Seonaid
> mentions (I am fairly sure) offer direct membership with the central
> organisation for those who wish it. This means that, for UK taxpayers, tax
> relief can be claimed, and direct debits can be set up which, again in my
> view, would give young people (I was certainly not cash rich at 18) a
> method of showing commitment to the Society which the "bus pass generation"
> could also subscribe to.

I don't quite see where this argument is going. We have »direct membership
with the central organisation for those who wish it« already under the name
of HQ membership. The problem is not one of availability but of the fact that
HQ members, for various reasons, are second-class citizens -- the main beef
being that they don't have representation at the AGM. We could try to sort
this out for good but this debate has been around for a while and I'm not
holding my breath; the last time we tried this we got the »International
Branch« instead.

If the point is really to get rid of membership-through-LAs in favour of
direct membership for everyone with LA membership as an optional extra, then
the advantages you cite will be enticing if one is, in fact, a UK taxpayer
but will not materialise to the same, if any, extent for everybody else. For
example, I can get tax relief on my dues to Central Germany Branch (both
Society dues and branch dues) but would not be entitled to that for Society
dues that I pay directly to Scotland. Also, direct debit isn't available from
Scotland to accounts abroad; to pay direct membership dues the way the
Society is set up for receiving money today would in all probability require
one to have a credit card, which many people in Germany don't (in particular
people we're especially after, like young adults). On the other hand, I pay
my CGB membership fee by direct debit with no hassle. With much of the
international membership already feeling that they get the short end of the
stick, such a change in Society policy would not do a lot, from an
administrative point of view, to make membership more attractive to people
abroad. There would have to be more changes made in order to sell this to the
membership, and as long as the speed of reforms in the Society makes the flow
of glaciers appear lightning fast in comparison we should not count on
anything happening anytime soon.

Incidentally, while we are on that tack, it ought to be possible for RSCDS HQ
to publish an IBAN and BIC so people from the EU could make payments e.g.,
for shop items or Summer School by giro transfer (which for private citizens
in the EU is essentially free) instead of by credit card. The only thing that
would have to be sorted out would be conversion from Euros to pounds
Sterling.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
You think it's a conspiracy by the networks to put bad shows on TV. But the
shows are bad because that's what people want. It's not like Windows users
don't have any power. I think they are happy with Windows, and that's an
incredibly depressing thought. -- Steve Jobs

Life Membership

Message 53956 · redrose_solutions · 23 Oct 2008 15:56:54 · Top

Anselm wrote:

>Incidentally, while we are on that tack, it ought to be possible for
RSCDS HQ
>to publish an IBAN and BIC so people from the EU could make payments
e.g.,
>for shop items or Summer School by giro transfer (which for private
citizens
>in the EU is essentially free) instead of by credit card. The only
thing that
>would have to be sorted out would be conversion from Euros to pounds
>Sterling.

The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a
while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.
Admittedly this mode of payment is not generally as common in the UK as
in other parts of Europe, but it would make life a lot easier e.g. for
those of us who use internet banking.

Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished? Would
that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life
membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as
well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more
affordable financial level than Life Membership?

Susi

Susi Mayr
Vienna (Austria) & Surrey (UK)

___________________________

Seasonal Bargains - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/events/christmas/bargain-corner/

___________________________

Life Membership

Message 53957 · Anselm Lingnau · 23 Oct 2008 16:54:27 · Top

Susi Mayr wrote:

> The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a
> while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.

Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday
flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other
party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this
case »not possible« is a convenient shorthand for »we can't be bothered«.
Chalk one up for UK-centrism.

> Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?

To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as
life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership
through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms
solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues
for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.

For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a
huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being
available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is
essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up during
the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one will
lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their
bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term
membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long
as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,
long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay
again every year.)

> Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life
> membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as
> well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more
> affordable financial level than Life Membership?

Quite.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of
strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince Lombardi

Life Membership

Message 53958 · Jerome Reinstein · 23 Oct 2008 17:48:13 · Top

>> The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a
>> while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.
>
> Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday
> flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other
> party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this
> case »not possible« is a convenient shorthand for »we can't be bothered«.
> Chalk one up for UK-centrism.

It is indeed hard to believe it isn't possible.

>> Also, does anyone know why Long Term
>>membership was abolished?
>
> To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as
> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership
> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms
> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues
> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.
>
Moving from Branch A to Branch B is not a problem at all. The Long term fee
went to the RSCDS not to the Branch so the member only pays the smaller
annual Branch membership for each Branch he/she wants to be a member of as
he/she is already an RSCDS member. We belong to Paris (principal Branch) and
pay the RSCDS membership plus 7 Euros for the Branch, and pay the smaller
Branch fee to London and the International Branch to be members of these
Branches as well.

Jerry Reinstein
Paris and London

Life Membership

Message 53966 · Pia Walker · 23 Oct 2008 20:54:37 · Top

Yes! It is a common misconception that you are life/long-term member of the
branch - it is the RSCDS you are life /long term member of - therefore you
can move in and out of branches and still retain your RSCDS membership.
You should also be able to be a member of several branches, and only pay
RSCDS membership through one of those - your principal one, then pay a
branch only fee to the rest of your preferred branches/groups
Pia Walker
International Branch (Principal Member)
Central German Branch (Associate member)
Member of West Lothian Independent Dancers, Abertay Piping and Traditional
Music Association, GG's, Cupar Dance Group.

>> Also, does anyone know why Long Term
>>membership was abolished?
>
> To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem
as
> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term
membership
> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms
> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B
dues
> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.
>
Moving from Branch A to Branch B is not a problem at all. The Long term fee
went to the RSCDS not to the Branch so the member only pays the smaller
annual Branch membership for each Branch he/she wants to be a member of as
he/she is already an RSCDS member. We belong to Paris (principal Branch) and
pay the RSCDS membership plus 7 Euros for the Branch, and pay the smaller
Branch fee to London and the International Branch to be members of these
Branches as well.

Jerry Reinstein
Paris and London

Life Membership

Message 53969 · alan mair · 23 Oct 2008 22:23:16 · Top

Pia said-

" Yes! It is a common misconception that you are life/long-term member of
the
> branch - it is the RSCDS you are life /long term member of - therefore you
> can move in and out of branches and still retain your RSCDS membership."

Actually it is not a misconception at all. Current long-term memberships are
almost fully run out so any comment on them (fortunately) would be academic.
In the case of life memberships, when that was available, annual
subscription for RSCDS and Branch membership (and the split) were fixed at
AGM. Anyone taking out Life membership (I think with few if any exceptions)
took it out through a Branch and therefore they became Branch and RSCDS Life
members. Multi branch membership came much later.

The freedom to move from Branch to Branch was something that was taken for
granted and never questioned. There was something in the discussion about
setting up Local Associations that Branch Life memberships should be fixed
at that point but I don't think that was taken on board.

On the question of Long Term membership, it is not strictly true to say that
it was abolished. It was suspended about 1999 because radical changes were
being proposed and it was thought to be prudent to ask long-term members to
wait until the matter was settled. I cannot say why the Management Board
have not made it available again because it does help some overseas members
to save on the costs of currency deals. On the other hand, many Branch
secy/treasurers found it something of a "pain with no gain" to administer.

Alan
Cupar
Fife

>
>> You should also be able to be a member of several branches, and only pay
> RSCDS membership through one of those - your principal one, then pay a
> branch only fee to the rest of your preferred branches/groups
> Pia Walker
> International Branch (Principal Member)
> Central German Branch (Associate member)
> Member of West Lothian Independent Dancers, Abertay Piping and Traditional
> Music Association, GG's, Cupar Dance Group.
>
>>> Also, does anyone know why Long Term
> >>membership was abolished?
>>
>> To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem
> as
>> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term
> membership
>> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
>> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year
>> terms
>> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
>> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B
> dues
>> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
>> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
>> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
>> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.
>>
> Moving from Branch A to Branch B is not a problem at all. The Long term
> fee
> went to the RSCDS not to the Branch so the member only pays the smaller
> annual Branch membership for each Branch he/she wants to be a member of as
> he/she is already an RSCDS member. We belong to Paris (principal Branch)
> and
> pay the RSCDS membership plus 7 Euros for the Branch, and pay the smaller
> Branch fee to London and the International Branch to be members of these
> Branches as well.
>
> Jerry Reinstein
> Paris and London
>
>
>
>
>

Life Membership

Message 53959 · Andrew Smith · 23 Oct 2008 18:10:02 · Top

I paid my fee for the Paris branch weekend by bank transfer and it cost
something in the order of 10% of the amount transferred. I forget the
maximum that I could transfer for that charge as it was banded rather than
pro-rata. The charge was considerably more than the annual Society
subscription. Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or
are charges similar for incoming payments?
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Susi Mayr wrote:

> The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a
> while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.

Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday
flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other
party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this
case »not possible« is a convenient shorthand for »we can't be bothered«.
Chalk one up for UK-centrism.

> Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?

To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as
life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership
through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms
solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues
for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.

For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a
huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being
available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is
essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up
during
the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one
will
lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their
bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term
membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long
as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,
long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay
again every year.)

> Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life
> membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as
> well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more
> affordable financial level than Life Membership?

Quite.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of
strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince
Lombardi

Life Membership

Message 53960 · Anselm Lingnau · 23 Oct 2008 18:23:55 · Top

Andrew Smith wrote:

> Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or
> are charges similar for incoming payments?

Within the EU, bank transfers by private citizens may not incur higher charges
for a transfer abroad than for a domestic transfer. It's the law! This
applies to transfers in Euros, so the 10% surcharge may be what your bank
charges to convert your pounds to Euros. I've heard that some banks in the UK
apparently convert incoming Euros to Sterling for free, but even if the
Society's prices in Euro were a bit higher than in Sterling to cover
conversion, it would still make sense for people to do bank transfers in Euro
if the alternative would be to get a credit card, which at least in Germany
can cost about as much per year as Society membership (depending on your bank
and your account package).

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
If the Romans had used Django, they *would* have built Rome in a day.
-- Jacob Kaplan-Moss, »Why You Should Use Django«

Life Membership

Message 53962 · Chris1Ronald · 23 Oct 2008 18:50:44 · Top

I have to admit that talk of life or long-term membership makes me nervous,
especially when you consider how membership numbers have gone down over the
last ten years. I don't have the figures to hand right now, but from memory I
believe the numbers have been going down by about 6% per year, from around
25,000 to 15,000. Those figures are before we know the impact of the dues
increase from 10 to 15 pounds, so if anything we can expect the decline to
accelerate.

Given that there are still a significant number of life members, this means
that the burden of meeting the current operating expenses of the society is
falling more and more heavily on a declining number of annual members. And
the more that current expenses increase (due to inflation, or other reasons),
the worse the problem is going to get.

TAC allows memberships for up to three years at a time. I think this is
reasonable and prudent.

Chris, New York.

PS. I wonder if HQ has taken any steps to encourage life members to make
voluntary annual contributions?
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Life Membership

Message 53964 · sophie.rickebusch · 23 Oct 2008 19:26:04 · Top

No Andrew, it's not just British banks, French ones are if anything
worse and in the case you mention, the bank charges may have included
ones from the receiving bank. I had to transfer 40 Euros (professional
organisation affiliation) from France to Germany about 2 years ago and
it cost me 8 Euros in bank charges, ie. a surcharge of 20 percent with
no currency conversion involved (and it was rather complicated to set
up too!) Transfers to another account within the same bank are charged
0.50 Euros (and nearly as complicated to set up) - even that seems far
too much! The French are not going to stop using their beloved cheques
anytime soon!

Anselm - nobody in France seems to be aware of that law, whether
bankers or users, but it must be said that in my experience, French
bank staff are not very aware of the world outside their borders and
international money transfers are a rather alien concept to them. This
impression was reinforced by the wonderful reaction from a bank clerk
just 1.5 hours' drive from the Swiss border, when I said I had no clue
what she was talking about (some abbreviation for a bank account type)
because I'd just moved from Switzerland: "Oh sorry, I hadn't realised
because your French is so good!"

Sophie

>----Original Message----
>From: anselm@strathspey.org
>Date: Oct 23, 2008 17:23
>To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)
>
>Andrew Smith wrote:
>
>> Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or
>> are charges similar for incoming payments?
>
>Within the EU, bank transfers by private citizens may not incur
higher charges
>for a transfer abroad than for a domestic transfer. It's the law!
This
>applies to transfers in Euros, so the 10% surcharge may be what your
bank
>charges to convert your pounds to Euros. I've heard that some banks
in the UK
>apparently convert incoming Euros to Sterling for free, but even if
the
>Society's prices in Euro were a bit higher than in Sterling to cover
>conversion, it would still make sense for people to do bank transfers
in Euro
>if the alternative would be to get a credit card, which at least in
Germany
>can cost about as much per year as Society membership (depending on
your bank
>and your account package).
>
>Anselm
>--
>Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
>If the Romans had used Django, they *would* have built Rome in a day.
> -- Jacob Kaplan-Moss, »Why You Should
Use Django«
>

Life Membership

Message 53965 · Louise Fordyce · 23 Oct 2008 20:31:39 · Top

It seems that UK banks like making the money as when I transfer money from the UK to Spain it indeed costs me approx. 10%. However when I transfer money from Spain to the UK it costs me a flat fee of 2Euro regardless of the amount. Maybe its something that could be an option for those outwith the UK?

Louise
Spain> From: afsmith@talktalk.net> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:10:02 +0100> > I paid my fee for the Paris branch weekend by bank transfer and it cost > something in the order of 10% of the amount transferred. I forget the > maximum that I could transfer for that charge as it was banded rather than > pro-rata. The charge was considerably more than the annual Society > subscription. Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or > are charges similar for incoming payments?> Andrew Smith,> Bristol, UK.> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:54 PM> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> > > Susi Mayr wrote:> > > The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a> > while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.> > Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday> flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other> party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this> case »not possible« is a convenient shorthand for »we can't be bothered«.> Chalk one up for UK-centrism.> > > Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?> > To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.> > For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a> huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being> available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is> essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up > during> the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one > will> lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their> bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term> membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long> as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,> long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay> again every year.)> > > Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life> > membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as> > well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more> > affordable financial level than Life Membership?> > Quite.> > Anselm> -- > Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... > anselm@strathspey.org> The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of> strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince > Lombardi> >
_________________________________________________________________
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Life Membership

Message 53967 · Pia Walker · 23 Oct 2008 20:58:00 · Top

YES

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Smith [mailto:afsmith@talktalk.net]
Sent: 23 October 2008 17:10
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or
are charges similar for incoming payments?
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Susi Mayr wrote:

> The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a
> while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.

Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday
flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other
party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this
case "not possible" is a convenient shorthand for "we can't be bothered".
Chalk one up for UK-centrism.

> Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?

To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as
life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership
through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only
subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms
solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the
remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues
for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's
registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of
course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a
membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.

For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a
huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being
available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is
essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up
during
the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one
will
lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their
bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term
membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long
as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,
long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay
again every year.)

> Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life
> membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as
> well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more
> affordable financial level than Life Membership?

Quite.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of
strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince
Lombardi

Life Membership

Message 53968 · Bob McArthur · 23 Oct 2008 21:50:39 · Top


Bank Charges in Europe:

When booking accommodation for many of my excursions to Poland in the past year I have found that prices (Agency) are usually quoted in Sterling or Euros but the hotels generally only want to deal in local currency.

So although credit card references are required on reservation I have found that I just pay cash in local currency to settle the bills, hence no significant rip off bank charges are incurred.

I appreciate the problems of carrying cash but perhaps a similar system would work for the occasional weekend event in Europe ie give the organisers the safeguard of a card reference on booking but settle the costs locally when actually attending.

Direct Membership of RSCDS:

If it is correct that the Society is charging a much higher fee for direct membership then it is not surprising that membership is declining, I would not on principle even consider paying an inflated charge just because there was no local or convenient group available to pay through.

I would support setting one standardised charge for RSCDS membership worldwide and let the local charges for sustaining local groups be set as required by the branch/group membership.

I pay subscriptions to the groups I wish to support hence my membership is currently:

Scosha Bournemouth, Bournemouth Caledonians, Bournemouth RSCDS, International Branch and London Branch through whom I pay my Society Subs.

I believe that my total annual subs bill (about £50) costs virtually the same as attending one premier football match so I reckon they are worth every penny and anyway dancing is much more fun!!

Regards

Bob McArthur

> From: pia@intamail.com> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: RE: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:58:00 +0100> > YES> > Pia> > -----Original Message-----> From: Andrew Smith [mailto:afsmith@talktalk.net]> Sent: 23 October 2008 17:10> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> > Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or> are charges similar for incoming payments?> Andrew Smith,> Bristol, UK.> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:54 PM> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> > > Susi Mayr wrote:> > > The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a> > while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.> > Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday> flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other> party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this> case "not possible" is a convenient shorthand for "we can't be bothered".> Chalk one up for UK-centrism.> > > Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?> > To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.> > For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a> huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being> available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is> essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up> during> the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one> will> lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their> bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term> membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long> as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,> long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay> again every year.)> > > Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life> > membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as> > well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more> > affordable financial level than Life Membership?> > Quite.> > Anselm> --> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................> anselm@strathspey.org> The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of> strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince> Lombardi> >
_________________________________________________________________
Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip
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Life Membership

Message 53971 · sophie.rickebusch · 23 Oct 2008 23:01:14 · Top

That works with hotels, but Scottish dance groups are rarely equipped
with credit card facilities, so a credit card reference is useless to
them. Some organisers will accept payment "at the door" for participants
from outside the country - I know we did for the Zurich week-end 3 years
ago. The alternative is the "Scottish dancers' money transfer network"
;-) which can also work for light-weight goods such as CDs...

Sophie

Robert James Robertson McArthur wrote:
>
> Bank Charges in Europe:
>
> When booking accommodation for many of my excursions to Poland in the past year I have found that prices (Agency) are usually quoted in Sterling or Euros but the hotels generally only want to deal in local currency.
>
> So although credit card references are required on reservation I have found that I just pay cash in local currency to settle the bills, hence no significant rip off bank charges are incurred.
>
> I appreciate the problems of carrying cash but perhaps a similar system would work for the occasional weekend event in Europe ie give the organisers the safeguard of a card reference on booking but settle the costs locally when actually attending.
>
> Direct Membership of RSCDS:
>
> If it is correct that the Society is charging a much higher fee for direct membership then it is not surprising that membership is declining, I would not on principle even consider paying an inflated charge just because there was no local or convenient group available to pay through.
>
> I would support setting one standardised charge for RSCDS membership worldwide and let the local charges for sustaining local groups be set as required by the branch/group membership.
>
> I pay subscriptions to the groups I wish to support hence my membership is currently:
>
> Scosha Bournemouth, Bournemouth Caledonians, Bournemouth RSCDS, International Branch and London Branch through whom I pay my Society Subs.
>
> I believe that my total annual subs bill (about £50) costs virtually the same as attending one premier football match so I reckon they are worth every penny and anyway dancing is much more fun!!
>
> Regards
>
> Bob McArthur
>
>
>> From: pia@intamail.com> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: RE: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:58:00 +0100> > YES> > Pia> > -----Original Message-----> From: Andrew Smith [mailto:afsmith@talktalk.net]> Sent: 23 October 2008 17:10> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> > Is it just the British banks ripping off their customers or> are charges similar for incoming payments?> Andrew Smith,> Bristol, UK.> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:54 PM> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)> > > Susi Mayr wrote:> > > The issue of paying funds to the RSCDS by bank transfer came up a> > while ago, but upon enquiry I was told this was not possible.> > Fiddlesticks. People do it all the time. We have been paying for our holiday> flats in the UK by bank transfer for years -- all it takes is for the other> party to ask their bank for their IBAN and BIC. I suspect that in this> case "not possible" is a convenient shorthand for "we can't be bothered".> Chalk one up for UK-centrism.> > > Also, does anyone know why Long Term membership was abolished?> > To a certain degree, long-term membership is plagued by the same problem as> life membership, e.g., what happens if people take out long-term membership> through branch A and then move away to branch B territory? If people only> subscribe for a year this is not much of an issue, but with ten-year terms> solving this properly (by branch A refunding the branch A dues for the> remaining term, branch B allowing the member to pay *only* the branch B dues> for the remaining term, and the Society transferring the member's> registration from branch A to branch B) may not seem worth the hassle. Of> course it would help with keeping track if every member was assigned a> membership card number for life, but AFAIK that doesn't happen.> > For a more jaded explanation, I seem to remember that the annual fee made a> huge jump upwards at about the time long-term membership stopped being> available. As I said earlier, with long-term membership, the member is> essentially betting against the Society that the annual fee will go up> during> the next 10 years. It is unwise for one to make bets where one knows one> will> lose big time. (I also said that long-term members always used to win their> bet. However, to the Society, having all the money from a long-term> membership up-front may be worth losing a few pounds toward the end, as long> as the difference isn't too big. Even if the annual fee stays the same,> long-term membership may still be worth the convenience of not having to pay> again every year.)> > > Would that not be a reasonable intermediate step between annual and Life> > membership, and facilitate a certain degree of forward budgeting as> > well as allowing people to make a commitment to the RSCDS at a more> > affordable financial level than Life Membership?> > Quite.> > Anselm> --> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................> anselm@strathspey.org> The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of> strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.-- Vince> Lombardi> >
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
>
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

Life Membership

Message 53972 · redrose_solutions · 23 Oct 2008 23:02:26 · Top

Alan wrote:

>On the question of Long Term membership (...) I cannot say why the
Management Board
>have not made it available again because it does help some overseas
members
>to save on the costs of currency deals. On the other hand, many
Branch
>secy/treasurers found it something of a "pain with no gain" to
administer.

I wonder whether there is any data on how holders of Long Term
memberships react when their ten years run out - do they happily revert
to paying annually, do they comment on or complain about not being able
to extend their membership but still pay the annual fee, or do they
just stay away?

Susi

Susi Mayr
Vienna (Austria) & Surrey (UK)

___________________________

Seasonal Bargains - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/events/christmas/bargain-corner/

___________________________

Life Membership

Message 53973 · Margaret Lambourne · 23 Oct 2008 23:46:32 · Top

I found it difficult to carry on my membership of London Branch when
my long term membership had finished. In Holland as in some other
parts of Europe cheques do not exist any more. I resorted to asking
one of my daughters who lives in the UK to send off a cheque on my
behalf. Paying my International Branch membership was much easier as
I could choose to pay in sterling or Euros so I transfered Euros to
the Luxembourg account and with a 2 year deal as well.

My RSCDS membership now is with the International Branch and my
second branch is London. Originally I had 2 long term memberships
through London Branch after I moved to the Netherlands in 1983, one
of 15 and one of 10 years and it was so much easier than having to
think about renewing every year.

Margaret

Nieuwegein, the Netherlands,
International and London Branches

On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:02 PM, Susi Mayr wrote:

> Alan wrote:
>
>> On the question of Long Term membership (...) I cannot say why the
> Management Board
>> have not made it available again because it does help some overseas
> members
>> to save on the costs of currency deals. On the other hand, many
> Branch
>> secy/treasurers found it something of a "pain with no gain" to
> administer.
>
> I wonder whether there is any data on how holders of Long Term
> memberships react when their ten years run out - do they happily
> revert
> to paying annually, do they comment on or complain about not being
> able
> to extend their membership but still pay the annual fee, or do they
> just stay away?
>
> Susi
>
> Susi Mayr
> Vienna (Austria) & Surrey (UK)
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________
>
> Seasonal Bargains - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/events/christmas/
> bargain-corner/
>
> ___________________________
>

Life Membership

Message 53979 · campbell · 24 Oct 2008 09:22:57 · Top

The UK banking system does seem to be at rather a different stage to others.
I wanted to pay Marian Anderson for playing at our final ball after our
Scottish tour. I did it by internet transfer from my UK account and the
money disappeared!! It took me four months to persuade the two banks
involved to find the money, each blamed the other and the receiving bank
wouldn't give me information because it was confidential to their client.
My bank told me it was my responsibility to recover the money. It was a
nightmare, costing me many international phone calls. I would stick with
cheques for paying UK people myself.

Here in third world South Africa everyone I know uses internet banking with
absolute confidence and cheques are almost no longer used due to cheque
fraud.

Campbell Tyler
Cape Town

Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1740 - Release Date: 10/23/2008
3:29 PM

Life Membership

Message 53977 · mlamontbrown · 24 Oct 2008 01:26:29 · Top

Susi asked:
> I wonder whether there is any data on how holders of Long Term
> memberships react when their ten years run out - do they happily revert
> to paying annually, do they comment on or complain about not being able
> to extend their membership but still pay the annual fee, or do they just stay away?

Virtually all our members happily became annual members.

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susi Mayr [mailto:redrose_solutions@tiscali.co.uk]
> Sent: 23 October 2008 22:02
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)
>
> Alan wrote:
>
> >On the question of Long Term membership (...) I cannot say why the
> Management Board
> >have not made it available again because it does help some overseas
> members
> >to save on the costs of currency deals. On the other hand, many
> Branch
> >secy/treasurers found it something of a "pain with no gain" to
> administer.
>

>
> Susi
>
> Susi Mayr
> Vienna (Austria) & Surrey (UK)
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________
>
> Seasonal Bargains - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/events/christmas/bargain-corner/
>
> ___________________________

Life Membership

Message 53980 · Martin Campoveja · 24 Oct 2008 09:53:11 · Top

Malcolm wrote :

>
> Virtually all our members happily became annual members.

"Happily"?

That may well apply to "becoming members", but I'm not sure it always
applies to the "annual" part, remembering when and how and to whom tp pay.

You were talking of your members, ie Brits in Britland; for the Wogs in
Wogland, it is a nuisance, as you can tell from the other ongoing discussion
here.

Martin

Martin

Life Membership

Message 53984 · Helen Brown · 24 Oct 2008 18:53:05 · Top

Martin said:

>That may well apply to "becoming members", but I'm not sure it always
>applies to the "annual" part, remembering when and how and to whom tp pay.

We have an application form on the back of the February Branch Newsletter
(our year end is the end of February). About half the members pay up in
the first 3 weeks, then after another two weeks or so, those who still owe
are sent an email reminder (if they have email), most of whom respond
straight away, then the rest are sent a reminder letter with the "Chairman's
Letter" in July. Actually, this was the first year we did the email
reminder and it was very successful. They don't really have to remember -
we tell them!!

Helen
Helen C N Brown
York, UK

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Sheffield [mailto:francoscot@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 October 2008 08:53
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Malcolm wrote :

>
> Virtually all our members happily became annual members.

"Happily"?

You were talking of your members, ie Brits in Britland; for the Wogs in
Wogland, it is a nuisance, as you can tell from the other ongoing discussion
here.

Martin

Life Membership

Message 53986 · Rebecca Sager · 25 Oct 2008 15:38:15 · Top

Well, obviously you can't expect anyone to remember to pay their dues if you don't remind them. We mail an application form with the AGM notice in late April or early May for our fiscal year beginning July 1. Used to include the form with the next two newsletters but we don't mail more than a handful of those any more, since it's on the website. We're always still rounding up strays at Stone Mountain Games in October. We'll be significantly down in numbers since we had to go up on the dues so much this year to cover the Society increase and the bad exchange rate (though blessedly the dollar has been getting stronger lately)

Incidentally Atlanta is in favor of the new graduated fee structure amendment, we've been offering a discounted additional-family-member rate for a while, but opposed to the NZ motion about not having to join the RSCDS to join the branch. Surely RSCDS membership would dwindle away to nothing if that was approved?

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Helen Brown" <hcnbrown@supanet.com> wrote:
Martin said:

>That may well apply to "becoming members", but I'm not sure it always
>applies to the "annual" part, remembering when and how and to whom tp pay.

We have an application form on the back of the February Branch Newsletter
(our year end is the end of February). About half the members pay up in
the first 3 weeks, then after another two weeks or so, those who still owe
are sent an email reminder (if they have email), most of whom respond
straight away, then the rest are sent a reminder letter with the "Chairman's
Letter" in July. Actually, this was the first year we did the email
reminder and it was very successful. They don't really have to remember -
we tell them!!

Helen
Helen C N Brown
York, UK

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Sheffield [mailto:francoscot@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 October 2008 08:53
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: Life Membership (was: RSCDS membership requirement)

Malcolm wrote :

>
> Virtually all our members happily became annual members.

"Happily"?

You were talking of your members, ie Brits in Britland; for the Wogs in
Wogland, it is a nuisance, as you can tell from the other ongoing discussion
here.

Martin

RSCDS AGM motions

Message 53890 · sophie.rickebusch · 21 Oct 2008 00:12:26 · Top

I don't think they're forestalling voting on the original motion at all,
but giving an alternative to simply accepting or rejecting it, ie.
postpone the vote and get the MB to look into the implications of this
motion into more detail and inform the members in time for it to be
resubmitted next year. This may work both for and against the motion in
question, as in the absence of an alternative, the delegates could
reject it outright because they're not sure of the consequences of such
a big change to the structure of the Society. This way the vote could be
"accept", "reject" or "we think this may be interesting, but we need to
know more before we decide next year". I don't have a problem with that,
the delegates can't all have in-depth knowledge of the constitution and
it's part of the MB's role to ring the alarm bell and say "careful, this
is going to have far-reaching implications".

At least, that's how I understand it, in the same way that the amendment
to the membership categories proposed by Aberdeen branch doesn't mean
that the MB's proposition won't be put to the vote.

Sophie

Peter McClure wrote:
> A few weeks ago, one of the list members - I think it was Helen Brown
> - posted a note drawing attention to the draft agenda for the RSCDS
> AGM, to be held next month, and in particular, to one of the motions
> listed in the agenda. I've been rather surprised that there has been
> no response on the list. Anyhow, the motion in question, proposed by
> the New Zealand Branch, and which would allow branches to have members
> who are not RSCDS members, is now on the final agenda for the meeting,
> accompanied by what is called an "amendment", which proposes that the
> motion be "remitted" to the Management Board for study and report.
>
> My question is, does anyone else find this to be very odd, from the
> point of view of procedure? As I understand such things, an amendment
> to a motion is considered by the meeting, and passed, or not; then,
> the original motion, amended or not, goes to the meeting for a vote.
> However, if the "amendment" means what it seems to say, its intention
> is to forestall voting on the original motion.
>
> Am I missing something? I'm not a fan of meetings, but I think I
> might like to be a fly on the wall at this one.
>
> Peter McClure
> Winnipeg, MB, Canada
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

RSCDS AGM motions

Message 53925 · Jean Martin · 21 Oct 2008 18:06:40 · Top

In Sophie's message of 21 October at 9.15 a.m. she speaks of 'associate
member' status. This was mooted in the late1990s, but at that stage did not
find favour with the membership and/or Branches but it could be revived now,
if that is what is desired by 66% of Branches. (Constitutional change
requires a two thirds majority.)

I think she is also right that what the MB is doing in response to the NZ
motion is allowing time for proper discussion of the issue but giving a
deadline when proposals will be put to the membership. Certainly that was
what I read into the amendment to NZ's motion.

To me there is a contradiction in terms that you could be a member of a
Branch and not be a member of a parent organisation.

Jean Martin
Aberdeen

RSCDS AGM motions

Message 53945 · Peter McClure · 22 Oct 2008 01:00:52 · Top

>I don't think they're forestalling voting on the original motion at
>all, but giving an alternative to simply accepting or rejecting it,
>ie. postpone the vote and get the MB to look into the implications
>of this motion into more detail and inform the members in time for
>it to be resubmitted next year.

My point was, and remains, this: as long as the MB's proposal is on
the agenda as an "amendment", then the original motion must be voted
on. At least, that's how I understand the rules of order. Is that
really what MB wants?

I've read the discussion that seems to be related to this with great
interest. It appears that many areas are de facto doing what the NZ
motion envisages.

I strongly support Anselm's suggestion that what we really need to do
is to make Society membership seem desirable, rather than a burden
grudgingly accepted in the face of economic or constitutional
necessity. And with great respect, and very best wishes to the
central organization, I suggest that that is going to take a lot of
work in the more remote parts of the world.

Peter McClure
Winnipeg, MB, Canada

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