strathspey Archive: John's dance for Roy?

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John's dance for Roy?

Message 53688 · Rebecca Sager · 2 Oct 2008 19:31:02 · Top

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John, but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53691 · suepetyt · 2 Oct 2008 20:03:13 · Top

The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf

I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53698 · Muriel Bone · 2 Oct 2008 21:00:14 · Top

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Petyt" <sue@suepetyt.me.uk>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?

> The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
> http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf
>
> I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.
>
> Happy Dancing
> Sue Petyt
> Skype - spetyt
> www.suepetyt.me.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
> Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?
>
> I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for
John,
> but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
> that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.
>
> Becky
>
> Becky Sager
> Marietta GA USA
>
> -- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
> dance careers with SCD.
>
> However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
> dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.
>
>
>
>

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53699 · George Meikle · 2 Oct 2008 21:43:42 · Top

I suspect the dance being talked about is not "A Twinkle in His Eye" but the
4x40R called "Roy Golding" which was devised by John Drewry and was indeed
on sale in the RSCDS shop at St Andrews this year.

However, this 'new' dance appears to be a very slight variation on the 4x32J
called "Palace of Atholl" which was devised by John Drewry in November 2002
for one of our SCD weekends run at the Atholl Palace Hotel in Pitlochry that
he taught at.

Apart from the change from Jig to Reel, I am led to believe that the only
difference between the two dances is that "Roy Goldring" has an extra 8
hands round and back tacked on to the end of the original "Palace of Atholl"
dance. Other than that there appears to be very little differenc.

George Meikle
Lothian Scottish Dance Band

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Petyt [mailto:sue@suepetyt.me.uk]
Sent: 02 October 2008 19:03
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?

The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf

I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

Roy's Twinkle

Message 53712 · simon scott · 3 Oct 2008 23:17:55 · Top

In Chris Godwin's dance "A Twinkle in his Eye" on bar 12 it states that 2C
and 3C "curve" into top and bottom places.

Does any one know if this is,
a) a mirror curve while still facing partner,
b) a mirror curve away from partner, like a cast,
or,
c) parallel curves for each dancer, flowing out of the R or L hand cross
over.

Is Chris a member of strathspey and can answer himself? (or herself)

Many thanks

Simon
Vancouver

Roy's Twinkle

Message 53713 · Agnes MacMichael · 3 Oct 2008 23:37:15 · Top

My reading of the instructions says it is like Miss Milligan's Strathspey
where 2nd & 3rd cpls put in the 'loops' at the end of the reel.
So as 2nd cpls lead up and cross they do a cast into top place, likewise 3rd
cpl into 4th place.
Does anyone else think it this way? or as Simon says - can the devisor
confirm?
Agnes
West Lothian

On 03/10/2008, Simon Scott <simon.scott@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> In Chris Godwin's dance "A Twinkle in his Eye" on bar 12 it states that 2C
> and 3C "curve" into top and bottom places.
>
> Does any one know if this is,
> a) a mirror curve while still facing partner,
> b) a mirror curve away from partner, like a cast,
> or,
> c) parallel curves for each dancer, flowing out of the R or L hand cross
> over.
>
> Is Chris a member of strathspey and can answer himself? (or herself)
>
> Many thanks
>
> Simon
> Vancouver
>
>
>

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53703 · Margaret Allan · 2 Oct 2008 23:40:34 · Top

I have tried to access this dance "A Twinkle in His Eye", but for some
reason cannot get it to print off from the Leeds Website. Perhaps someone
could oblige and send me a copy. From what I was able to see it looks a
good dance.
Thank you
Margaret

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Petyt [mailto:sue@suepetyt.me.uk]
Sent: 02 October 2008 19:03
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?

The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf

I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53705 · Agnes MacMichael · 3 Oct 2008 00:04:39 · Top

A TWINKLE IN HIS EYE

32 bar strathspey for 4 couples

Bars

1 - 4 1st and 4th couple cross giving right hands, 1st couple cast off one
place while 4th couple cast

up one place.

2nd and 3rd couples step up or down on bars 3-4

5 - 8 1st and 4th couples dance right hands across once round, 1st and 4th
couples keep hold of their

partners right hand and finish 1st couple facing up and 4th couple facing
down.

9 - 12 1st couple lead up, crossing over and cast off one place while 2nd
couple cast off one place and

cross up left hand to curve into first place.At the same time, 4th couple
lead down, crossing over

and cast up one place while 3rd couple cast up one place and cross down
right hand to curve

into 4th place.

13 - 16 1st and 4th couples dance half rights and lefts.

17 - 24 4 couple set and link

17 - 18 All 4 couples, joining hands, set on the sidelines

19 - 20 4th man, followed by 2nd man and 1st women followed by 3rd woman
pulling the

right shoulder back, cast and curve round to the right while 1st man
followed by

3rd man and 4th woman followed by 2nd woman dance through the middle of the
set,

men passing left shoulders with the women and curve to the right to end in
lines of

four across the dance as shown in figure 1.

21 - 22 All set in lines of 4 across the dance.

23 - 24 4th man followed by 2nd man and 1st woman followed by 3rd woman,
pulling the

right shoulder back, cast and curve round to the right while 3rd man
followed by

1st man and 2nd woman followed by 4th woman dance through the middle of the
set

and curve to the right to end in the sidelines in the order 3, 1, 4, 2,
everyone on their

own side of the dance.

25 - 32 Eight hands round and back.

Repeat from new positions.

Note: In the 4 couple set and link, the same people are on the right hand
ends of the lines in bars

17 -18 and 21 - 22 ie 2nd man and 3rd woman however on the left hand end of
the line, the

people change, so in bars 17 - 18 3rd man and 2nd woman are on the end,
whereas in bars

21 - 22 1st man and 4th woman are on the end.

Devised by Chris Godwin, 8th September 2007.

Dedicated to Roy Goldring, who devised so many of my favourite dances.

Top

Figure 1

Bars 21-22

2

4

2

4

1

3

1

3

On 02/10/2008, Margaret Allan <margaretallan@connectfree.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I have tried to access this dance "A Twinkle in His Eye", but for some
> reason cannot get it to print off from the Leeds Website. Perhaps someone
> could oblige and send me a copy. From what I was able to see it looks a
> good dance.
> Thank you
> Margaret
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sue Petyt [mailto:sue@suepetyt.me.uk]
> Sent: 02 October 2008 19:03
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?
>
> The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
> http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf
>
> I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.
>
> Happy Dancing
> Sue Petyt
> Skype - spetyt
> www.suepetyt.me.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
> Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?
>
> I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
> but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
> that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.
>
> Becky
>
> Becky Sager
> Marietta GA USA
>
> -- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
> dance careers with SCD.
>
> However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
> dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.
>
>
>
>

A Twinkle in His Eye

Message 53709 · Christine Parker-Jones · 3 Oct 2008 12:23:11 · Top

Not sure why you are having difficult printing a copy of "A Twinkle in His Eye" from our website, as it seem to work alright from here.

There is a copy posted on Eight by Thirty-Two <http://blog.lib.umn.edu/ldfs/8x32/> (2nd September 2008) inviting people to try the dance and comment on it.

Yours

Christine Parker-Jones,
Leeds RSCDS Branch

________________________________

From: Margaret Allan [mailto:margaretallan@connectfree.co.uk]
Sent: Thu 02/10/2008 22:40
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?

I have tried to access this dance "A Twinkle in His Eye", but for some
reason cannot get it to print off from the Leeds Website. Perhaps someone
could oblige and send me a copy. From what I was able to see it looks a
good dance.
Thank you
Margaret

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Petyt [mailto:sue@suepetyt.me.uk]
Sent: 02 October 2008 19:03
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: John's dance for Roy?

The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf

I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53692 · Bruce Herbold · 2 Oct 2008 20:03:26 · Top

A member of my class brought a leaflet back from St Andrews this
summer (bearing a notation that a suitable tune will be forthcoming).
It is a four couple reel with 3s and 4s crossed over. It is clearly
a Drewry dance but I believe it does also capture some of Roy's
stylistic fingerprints -- particularly some nice butterfly turns. A
crib would look like:

2s and 3s RL
Promenade right shoulder reels at each end, corners end facing out
All turn 1 1/2 on sides, men lefthand, ladies right; 1s & 4s half
figure of 8 through ends
1s and 4s dance out the bottom and cast up to new places; all turn,
BH/skip change
Circle 8

Of course the original leaflet is the thing to teach from, but from
the crib I think you can see what I mean.

In addition to raising confusion about 'opposite sides' this dance
also raises questions about 'active couple.' In this dance, the
couple in the middle positions are always the active couples, but in
the first half that's the 2s&3s and in the second half its the 1s&4s
(also, the 1s tend to get confused in the third figure as they mirror
the 4s but then shadow them).

I do not really 'get' why John specifies skip-change for the two hand
turns, although it is consistent with his recent dances with
petronella turns using skip-change

It was a hit with both my classes.

Bruce Herbold
San Francisco

On 10/2/08, Becky Sager <bsager3@juno.com> wrote:
> I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John, but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.
>
> Becky
>
> Becky Sager
> Marietta GA USA
>
> -- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
> dance careers with SCD.
>
> However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
> dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.
>
>

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53694 · Rebecca Sager · 2 Oct 2008 20:14:27 · Top

This does sound fun, but not John Drewry! I see that Chris Godwin devised it in the week following Roy's death.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Sue Petyt" <sue@suepetyt.me.uk> wrote:
The dance, 'A Twinkle in His Eye', can be found on the Leeds RSCDS website
http://www.rscdsleeds.org.uk/documents/A%20Twinkle%20in%20his%20Eye.pdf

I've danced it and it is very very nice to dance.

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Sager [mailto:bsager3@juno.com]
Sent: 02 October 2008 18:31
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: John's dance for Roy?

I'm drawing a blank here. I'm of course familiar with Roy's dance for John,
but can't come up with the reverse. I am under the weather today, perhaps
that's the problem. Please put me out of my misery.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- "Bruce Herbold" <bherbold@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree -- a 'tempest in a teapot' for most of us who started our
dance careers with SCD.

However, just to further the tempest -- Monday I taught John Drewry's
dance in honor of Roy Goldring and it has the 3s and 4s crossed over.

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53820 · Ian Brockbank · 15 Oct 2008 21:18:44 · Top

Hi Bruce,

> ...
> I do not really 'get' why John specifies skip-change for the two hand
> turns, although it is consistent with his recent dances with
> petronella turns using skip-change
> ...

Indeed. After all, skip-change is the natural step to use for 2-hand turns,
as Allie* so rightly said. Unfortunately, Allie and Jean+ never saw eye to
eye, so because Allie said skip-change, Jean said pas-de-basque, and most
people seem to have listened to Jean over Allie. So we in Edinburgh are the
only ones to dance it properly.

If you don't believe me that skip-change is natural, try doing Gates of
Edinburgh or set to and turn corners both ways and see which one works
better...

* Miss Allie Anderson, co-founder of the SCDS and Edinburgh Branch
+ Miss Jean Milligan, co-founder of the SCDS and Glasgow Branch

Disclaimer: I wasn't there and never met either of the individuals involved,
so this is a story I have written based on comments from people who did know
the two. Its level of accuracy is unverified...but it does explain why we
do one thing and everyone else does another...

Oh, and apologies if anyone is horrified by the irreverent tone of reference
to these two august personages to whom we have so much to be thankful for.
And apologies to non-native English speakers who found that last sentence
too complicated...

Cheers,

Cheers,
Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
ian@scottishdance.net
http://www.scottishdance.net/
** Thanks to everyone who sponsored me for the Great North Run. My disabled
nephew Matthew and others like him will benefit. **
** Details of my run are now up at http://www.justgiving.com/ianbrockbank **

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53821 · Bruce Herbold · 15 Oct 2008 22:44:22 · Top

"proper" "natural" -- words that are like nails on blackboards to me
when applied to regional differences in how to do something like SCD.
I enjoy doing the 'Edinburgh turns' in D&D of Edinburgh and in Knit
the Pocky and at a ceilidh I certainly wouldn't do pdB in Dashing
White Sergeant or Hamilton House. I admire Miss Milligan's success
in reviving, codifying and preserving SCD, and am endlessly grateful
for it, but I do regret that to make that success she adopted
standards so that now people will argue what is "right" and allow
litttle room for agreeing to differ. It makes Strathspey sometimes
sound like US politics.

But I do want to extend my admiration for Miss Milligan -- I suspect
she invented a lot of the 'standards' out of whole cloth (with the
occasional assist of her mother and others). I doubt that Poussettes
were done with pdB in much of Britain -- but I love doing them that
way; strathspeys were doubtless seldom danced with the balletic
emphasis she placed on the steps. Setting and turning corners with
pdB only makes sense if you compare it to the pdB Pousette but is a
delight to do for that 'spinning top' feel (in fact if you promise
not to tell anyone, I'll admit to sometimes sneaking a tiny coupe into
the setting so I can do the turns on mirror feet).

So I think that she did more than protect, preserve and transmit -- I
think she more-or-less invented an art form that brings immense
pleasure to me and thousands more. And it was all 'natural' and
'proper' for her and the many people who flocked to her side, as it is
for me now.

So if I dance with you I will be happy to turn you with skip change
when you're first couple, but I'll hope that when I start with pdB in
my turn as first man, you'll return the favor.

Bruce Herbold
San Francisco

On 10/15/08, Ian Brockbank <ian@scottishdance.net> wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> > ...
> > I do not really 'get' why John specifies skip-change for the two hand
> > turns, although it is consistent with his recent dances with
> > petronella turns using skip-change
> > ...
>
> Indeed. After all, skip-change is the natural step to use for 2-hand turns,
> as Allie* so rightly said. Unfortunately, Allie and Jean+ never saw eye to
> eye, so because Allie said skip-change, Jean said pas-de-basque, and most
> people seem to have listened to Jean over Allie. So we in Edinburgh are the
> only ones to dance it properly.
>
> If you don't believe me that skip-change is natural, try doing Gates of
> Edinburgh or set to and turn corners both ways and see which one works
> better...
>
> * Miss Allie Anderson, co-founder of the SCDS and Edinburgh Branch
> + Miss Jean Milligan, co-founder of the SCDS and Glasgow Branch
>
> Disclaimer: I wasn't there and never met either of the individuals involved,
> so this is a story I have written based on comments from people who did know
> the two. Its level of accuracy is unverified...but it does explain why we
> do one thing and everyone else does another...
>
> Oh, and apologies if anyone is horrified by the irreverent tone of reference
> to these two august personages to whom we have so much to be thankful for.
> And apologies to non-native English speakers who found that last sentence
> too complicated...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cheers,
> Ian Brockbank
> Edinburgh, Scotland
> ian@scottishdance.net
> http://www.scottishdance.net/
> ** Thanks to everyone who sponsored me for the Great North Run. My disabled
> nephew Matthew and others like him will benefit. **
> ** Details of my run are now up at http://www.justgiving.com/ianbrockbank **
>
>
>
>

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53825 · Anselm Lingnau · 16 Oct 2008 13:58:27 · Top

Bruce Herbold wrote:

> I admire Miss Milligan's success
> in reviving, codifying and preserving SCD, and am endlessly grateful
> for it,

I've heard it said that Allie Anderson's one major regret in life was that she
didn't think of founding the SCDS before Jean Milligan did. I've also had the
Anderson/Milligan step controversy explained to me by a reasonably famous
Edinburgh-based SCD teacher who concluded his remarks with the observation
that »they were all silly old women«.

> people will argue what is "right" and allow
> litttle room for agreeing to differ. It makes Strathspey sometimes
> sound like US politics.

I like to think that we have still some ways to go before we end up *that*
low. From the parts of US politics that we get to see this side of the pond,
in the current race for the office of president the various personal
shortcomings of the opposing candidate seem to play a much larger role than
their actual positions on matters of policy. At least here on Strathspey we
tend to debate actual issues rather than who talked to which other unsavoury
character 25 years ago and what they said, didn't say, or should/shouldn't
have said at the time in question :^)

> But I do want to extend my admiration for Miss Milligan -- I suspect
> she invented a lot of the 'standards' out of whole cloth (with the
> occasional assist of her mother and others). [...]
> So I think that she did more than protect, preserve and transmit -- I
> think she more-or-less invented an art form that brings immense
> pleasure to me and thousands more.

My opinion is that anyone who believes that the efforts of the (R)SCDS ever
were about »protecting and preserving« the dancing and dances of yore is
living in a dream world. What we have now is a type of dancing that is
clearly *inspired* by the country dances of the 18th and 19th century but was
in many respects invented to suit the tastes of the SCDS's founders as well
as various people who followed them.

As such, there is little in SCD that is engraved on stone tablets -- »we
always did it this way« doesn't carry the same weight if »always« means »for
the last 85 years« as opposed to »since when we ate wooly mammoths«. On the
other hand, most of us seem to agree that standardisation is a good thing
even if the result of the standardisation may at times be less than optimal.
In addition, we do have widespread agreement on most issues but due to this
and to the inertia of the SCD community it is increasingly difficult for
anybody (including the Society) to make sweeping changes in the way our
dancing works. I think that on the whole this is a good thing -- there is an
opportunity for change but any change must be incremental. For another
gratuitious reference to US politics, think of it as evolution, based on
intelligent (?) design :^)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and
evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the
lack of evidence. -- Richard Dawkins

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53827 · Rebecca Sager · 16 Oct 2008 14:54:34 · Top

and once again Anselm's randomly? generated quotation fits perfectly with his closing sentence.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:

I think that on the whole this is a good thing -- there is an
opportunity for change but any change must be incremental. For another
gratuitious reference to US politics, think of it as evolution, based on
intelligent (?) design :^)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, thelack of evidence. -- Richard Dawkins

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53828 · Patricia Ruggiero · 16 Oct 2008 15:26:14 · Top

Anselm wrote:

> I've also had the Anderson/Milligan step controversy explained to me by a
reasonably famous Edinburgh-based SCD teacher

I know nothing of this. Would you summarize?

Thanks!

Pat

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53829 · Anselm Lingnau · 16 Oct 2008 15:46:25 · Top

Patricia Ruggiero wrote:

> I know nothing of this. Would you summarize?

Ian did that already -- two-handed turns in skip-change-of-step vs.
pas-de-basque.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The follies which a man regrets most in his life are those which he didn't
commit when he had the opportunity. -- Helen Rowland

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53830 · Patricia Ruggiero · 16 Oct 2008 16:00:36 · Top

Anselm wrote:
> Ian did that already -- two-handed turns in skip-change-of-step vs.
> pas-de-basque.

Oh, OK. I hadn't been following the thread, only paused to glance at your
post. Fortunately, I hadn't emptied the Deleted Items Folder, found Ian's
post, and read it. Thanks.

Pat

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53833 · Robert Lambie · 17 Oct 2008 00:45:53 · Top

I hadn't been following this thread either, but I had been considering the old argument between the two good ladies. It had struck me that Auntie Jean was in a minority of one, as all previous Dancing Masters would have taught two handed turns with travelling step up to the time when Auntie Jean invented the "Milligan" setting step. The original setting step involves a sideways movement which is in the wrong direction for the turn. However, just because it is possible to use a Milligan P-de-b in a turn does not mean that it is the best way.I think of Dr Johnson's hind leg walking dog!
It seems to me that it is not as elegant as a skip change turn, and certainly it involves a more jerky movement, which is why it takes longer. Turning corner, partner, corner, partner with two hand turns is rather more elegant, too, though I enjoy a Cleekit turn, especially in the Duke of Perth. I HATE the RSCDS one handed turns; they are the most inelegant thing I've seen in any form of taught Country dancing, and they are very hard on arthritic hands. They used to teach the cleekit, and they must have changed it in the '70s, though by whom and why this foul deed was done, I do not know.
_________________________________________________________________
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Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53834 · John Wood · 17 Oct 2008 01:05:39 · Top

Cleekit turn?

-------Original Message-------

From: Robert Lambie
Date: 16/10/2008 7:46:02 PM
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

I hadn't been following this thread either, but I had been considering the
old argument between the two good ladies. It had struck me that Auntie Jean
was in a minority of one, as all previous Dancing Masters would have taught
two handed turns with travelling step up to the time when Auntie Jean
invented the "Milligan" setting step. The original setting step involves a
sideways movement which is in the wrong direction for the turn. However,
just because it is possible to use a Milligan P-de-b in a turn does not mean
that it is the best way.I think of Dr Johnson's hind leg walking dog!
It seems to me that it is not as elegant as a skip change turn, and
certainly it involves a more jerky movement, which is why it takes longer.
Turning corner, partner, corner, partner with two hand turns is rather more
elegant, too, though I enjoy a Cleekit turn, especially in the Duke of Perth
I HATE the RSCDS one handed turns; they are the most inelegant thing I've
seen in any form of taught Country dancing, and they are very hard on
arthritic hands. They used to teach the cleekit, and they must have changed
it in the '70s, though by whom and why this foul deed was done, I do not
know.
_________________________________________________________________
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Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53835 · hways · 17 Oct 2008 02:00:20 · Top

From Robert Lambie
----- Original Message -----
"They used to teach the cleekit, and they must have changed it in the '70s,
though by whom and why this foul deed was done, I do not know. "

In the 70's? The 2 hand pas de basque is specified in the earliest
versions of "Won't You Join The Dance" and was most certainly being done
that way by SCDS well before that.

Harry Ways
_________________________________________________________________

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53837 · Brian Charlton · 17 Oct 2008 02:42:15 · Top

G'Day,

"101 Scottish Country Dances" was first published in 1956 and gave the
instruction (for set to and turn corners) '.... Turn your 1st corner with
two hands using two pas de basque steps. (If you move towards your corner as
you do your second pas de basque in the setting this turning is easy.)"

I have always known this form of turn (since 1953!) and was surprised when I
heard of the skip change turn as in 'The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh' and
was told it was the Edinburgh fashion and due to Allie Anderson.

I have a copy of TAC's commemorative facsimile edition of "A Complete Guide
to Scottish Country Dancing" by Allie Anderson and John Duthie. The
facsimile edition was produced in 1990, but there is no clue to the original
publication date. Here is states (for set to and turn partners) '
.......Reel time - Partners, facing each other, dance two Pas de Basque
steps, Right and Left; then with both hands turn each other once round with
two Skip change of steps, finishing in own places. ......." The footnote
says 'In some districts turns aree danced with Pas de Basque step. As Pas de
Basque step should be done on the spot it would seem logical to turn with a
progressive step (Skip change of step)". If the set is a reasonable width,
it would seem to me that dancers would have to at least set advancing, thus
negating the footnote justfication - maybe the sets were much narrower then?

Hence both methods were in use very early.

Brian Charlton,
Sydney, Australia

2008/10/17 Harry C. Ways <hways@ix.netcom.com>

> From Robert Lambie
> ----- Original Message ----- "They used to teach the cleekit, and they must
> have changed it in the '70s, though by whom and why this foul deed was done,
> I do not know. "
>
> In the 70's? The 2 hand pas de basque is specified in the earliest
> versions of "Won't You Join The Dance" and was most certainly being done
> that way by SCDS well before that.
>
> Harry Ways
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53838 · WENDY LOBERG · 17 Oct 2008 04:39:12 · Top

Hello,

For my prelim dance exam 3 yrs ago I had to teach 16 bars - set to and turn
corners followed by 6 bar reels of 3 on the sides and cross. The last 16
bars of Duke of Perth.

I had to teach it as set for 2 bars, turn 2 hands using pas de basque to
face 2nd corner. I passed.

That is the only way I have ever been taught set to and turn corners. I
have never seen Duke of Perth danced here in Canada with 2 bars of skip
change.

Ummm...

Wendy

>From: "Brian Charlton" <briangcharlton@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Re: Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?
>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:42:15 +1100
>
>G'Day,
>
>"101 Scottish Country Dances" was first published in 1956 and gave the
>instruction (for set to and turn corners) '.... Turn your 1st corner with
>two hands using two pas de basque steps. (If you move towards your corner
>as
>you do your second pas de basque in the setting this turning is easy.)"
>
>I have always known this form of turn (since 1953!) and was surprised when
>I
>heard of the skip change turn as in 'The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh' and
>was told it was the Edinburgh fashion and due to Allie Anderson.
>
>I have a copy of TAC's commemorative facsimile edition of "A Complete Guide
>to Scottish Country Dancing" by Allie Anderson and John Duthie. The
>facsimile edition was produced in 1990, but there is no clue to the
>original
>publication date. Here is states (for set to and turn partners) '
>.......Reel time - Partners, facing each other, dance two Pas de Basque
>steps, Right and Left; then with both hands turn each other once round with
>two Skip change of steps, finishing in own places. ......." The footnote
>says 'In some districts turns aree danced with Pas de Basque step. As Pas
>de
>Basque step should be done on the spot it would seem logical to turn with a
>progressive step (Skip change of step)". If the set is a reasonable width,
>it would seem to me that dancers would have to at least set advancing, thus
>negating the footnote justfication - maybe the sets were much narrower
>then?
>
>Hence both methods were in use very early.
>
>Brian Charlton,
>Sydney, Australia
>
>2008/10/17 Harry C. Ways <hways@ix.netcom.com>
>
> > From Robert Lambie
> > ----- Original Message ----- "They used to teach the cleekit, and they
>must
> > have changed it in the '70s, though by whom and why this foul deed was
>done,
> > I do not know. "
> >
> > In the 70's? The 2 hand pas de basque is specified in the earliest
> > versions of "Won't You Join The Dance" and was most certainly being done
> > that way by SCDS well before that.
> >
> > Harry Ways
> > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
>

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53842 · sophie.rickebusch · 17 Oct 2008 11:31:20 · Top

WENDY LOBERG wrote:
> That is the only way I have ever been taught set to and turn corners.
> I have never seen Duke of Perth danced here in Canada with 2 bars of
> skip change.
Well no, as they only do it that way in Edinburgh... Having just moved
there myself, I'm finding I have to be very alert so I don't go into
auto-pilot, ie. 2H = PDB. I think the "Edinburgh way" was mentioned in
passing during my teacher training in St Andrews, for our general
knowledge, but there was no question of teaching that way.

Sophie

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53843 · Martin Campoveja · 17 Oct 2008 11:39:13 · Top

2008/10/17 Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
> I think the "Edinburgh way" was mentioned in passing during my teacher
training in St Andrews, but there was no question of teaching that way.

I thought that in the 21st c, people no longer believed in ghosts.
Ms M's ghost's incredible powers of persuasion prove me wrong.

Martin

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53844 · Martin Campoveja · 17 Oct 2008 11:40:40 · Top

ps: excuse font size. I don't know what provoked this -- must be a ghost in
my computer!
Martin

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53846 · sophie.rickebusch · 17 Oct 2008 12:22:13 · Top

I don't see where ghosts come into this... or are you trying to say that
because someone is no longer alive, we should forget everything they've
ever said or written?

Sophie

Martin Campoveja wrote:
> 2008/10/17 Sophie Rickebusch wrote:
>
>> I think the "Edinburgh way" was mentioned in passing during my teacher
>>
> training in St Andrews, but there was no question of teaching that way.
>
> I thought that in the 21st c, people no longer believed in ghosts.
> Ms M's ghost's incredible powers of persuasion prove me wrong.
>
> Martin
>
>
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53840 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Oct 2008 09:46:49 · Top

Brian Charlton wrote:

> Hence both methods were in use very early.

According to Book 39, the dance, The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, was
published in 1948 (the namesakes of the dance tied the knot in 1947). This
uses the two-handed skip-change turn but it is a turn for 4 bars across the
set rather than a turn for 2 bars with corners, after setting.

In this context it is interesting to note that Knit the Pocky from book 11
explicitly (and sensibly) specifies skip-change for the 4-bar two-handed turn
with the person diagonally opposite (1st woman/2nd man, 1st man/2nd woman).

I don't think there is a lot of disagreement even from RSCDS hard-liners that
two-handed turns starting and ending on own sides, let alone diagonally, are
better done with skip-change of step (does anyone have an example to the
contrary? I can't think of one just now). The point of contention is really
2-bar turns with corners, as in »set to and turn corners«, because either
method works reasonably well. In the interest of standardisation there ought
to be a general rule, and as it happens that rule, however it was arrived at,
says »pas de basque«. The Edinburgh people may bitch and moan and it is up to
everybody else to remember the »Edinburgh way« when dancing in that fair
city, but I won't hold my breath waiting for the official edict to emanate
from Coates Crescent that henceforth all two-bar two-handed turns are to be
done in skip-change-of-step (which in any case would send the signal that
Miss Milligan was misguided and Allie Anderson was right after all, and
therefore presumably cannot be allowed to happen). In theory, dancers from
all over the world could establish a popular movement of »civil disobedience«
and adopt skip-change turns, but personally I don't think it's worth the
inevitable confusion.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
If reason was bestowed on us by Heaven and the same can be said of faith, then
Heaven has presented us with two incompatible and contradictory gifts.
-- Denis Diderot

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53845 · sophie.rickebusch · 17 Oct 2008 11:52:41 · Top

A 4-bar turn, even from the sidelines, is perfectly manageable with pdb
(it requires much less "spring" than say the last 2 bars of double
triangles). You also get a few dances which start with "set and
(half-)turn BH" (eg. Portnacraig), where you could argue for doing the
pdb on the spot and then turning with skip-change, rather than setting
advancing and then a quick turn in pdb (but there is something nice
about starting the dance by approaching your partner slowly while
setting, then really getting into the dance with that quick turn).

It seems to me that using pdb, people look more at the person with whom
they're turning... perhaps because it's more difficult so you really
have to help each other or because with skip-change, you turn your
hips/legs more into the direction of travel, so there's a risk that the
upper body and head will follow.

Sophie

Anselm Lingnau wrote:
> Brian Charlton wrote:
>
>
>> Hence both methods were in use very early.
>>
>
> According to Book 39, the dance, The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, was
> published in 1948 (the namesakes of the dance tied the knot in 1947). This
> uses the two-handed skip-change turn but it is a turn for 4 bars across the
> set rather than a turn for 2 bars with corners, after setting.
>
> In this context it is interesting to note that Knit the Pocky from book 11
> explicitly (and sensibly) specifies skip-change for the 4-bar two-handed turn
> with the person diagonally opposite (1st woman/2nd man, 1st man/2nd woman).
>
> I don't think there is a lot of disagreement even from RSCDS hard-liners that
> two-handed turns starting and ending on own sides, let alone diagonally, are
> better done with skip-change of step (does anyone have an example to the
> contrary? I can't think of one just now). The point of contention is really
> 2-bar turns with corners, as in »set to and turn corners«, because either
> method works reasonably well. In the interest of standardisation there ought
> to be a general rule, and as it happens that rule, however it was arrived at,
> says »pas de basque«. The Edinburgh people may bitch and moan and it is up to
> everybody else to remember the »Edinburgh way« when dancing in that fair
> city, but I won't hold my breath waiting for the official edict to emanate
> from Coates Crescent that henceforth all two-bar two-handed turns are to be
> done in skip-change-of-step (which in any case would send the signal that
> Miss Milligan was misguided and Allie Anderson was right after all, and
> therefore presumably cannot be allowed to happen). In theory, dancers from
> all over the world could establish a popular movement of »civil disobedience«
> and adopt skip-change turns, but personally I don't think it's worth the
> inevitable confusion.
>
> Anselm
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53841 · john.m.sturrock · 17 Oct 2008 10:44:40 · Top

Brian Charlton wrote : -

> I have a copy of TAC's commemorative facsimile edition of "A Complete
> Guide
> to Scottish Country Dancing" by Allie Anderson and John Duthie. The
> facsimile edition was produced in 1990, but there is no clue to the
> original
> publication date. Here is states (for set to and turn partners) '
> .......Reel time - Partners, facing each other, dance two Pas de Basque
> steps, Right and Left; then with both hands turn each other once round
> with
> two Skip change of steps, finishing in own places. ......." The footnote
> says 'In some districts turns are danced with Pas de Basque step. As Pas
> de
> Basque step should be done on the spot it would seem logical to turn with
> a
> progressive step (Skip change of step)".

The 'Complete Guide' can be dated from two sources.

Flett gives it as c1930.

But a better clue lies in the authors' own words. Page 29 of the original
first edition states "Poussette. This occurs in no less than twenty four
of the dances published at present..." The twenty fourth poussette
published by the SCDS occurred in Book 6, in 1930, so confirming Flett.

This book is thus an invaluable snapshot of every detail of how early SCD
was performed - at least in Edinburgh(!) - coming as it did twenty one
years before "Won't You Join The Dance".

John M Sturrock
Cupar UK
.

Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?

Message 53847 · Robert Lambie · 17 Oct 2008 12:30:28 · Top

Sorry, Harry, I refer to the single handed turns at that point. I should have been more accurate.> From: hways@ix.netcom.com> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: Re: Step controversy. Was: John's dance for Roy?> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:00:20 -0700> > From Robert Lambie> ----- Original Message ----- > "They used to teach the cleekit, and they must have changed it in the '70s, > though by whom and why this foul deed was done, I do not know. "> > In the 70's? The 2 hand pas de basque is specified in the earliest > versions of "Won't You Join The Dance" and was most certainly being done > that way by SCDS well before that.> > Harry Ways> _________________________________________________________________>
_________________________________________________________________
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John's dance for Roy?

Message 53836 · hways · 17 Oct 2008 02:09:57 · Top

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" .
It makes Strathspey sometimes
> sound like US politics.

I like to think that we have still some ways to go before we end up *that*
low. From the parts of US politics that we get to see this side of the pond,
in the current race for the office of president the various personal
shortcomings of the opposing candidate seem to play a much larger role than
their actual positions on matters of policy. At least here on Strathspey we
tend to debate actual issues rather than who talked to which other unsavoury
character 25 years ago and what they said, didn't say, or should/shouldn't
have said at the time in question :^)

The media on your side of the pond must not be reporting that the vast
majority of U S citizens are turned off by the negative campaigning, and are
concentrating on the fundamental policy issues. It ain't working.

Harry Ways

John's dance for Roy?

Message 53822 · Peter McClure · 15 Oct 2008 22:37:22 · Top

>Hi Bruce,
>
>> ...
>> I do not really 'get' why John specifies skip-change for the two hand
>> turns, although it is consistent with his recent dances with
>> petronella turns using skip-change
>> ...

Just to add to Ian's comment: if memory serves, when John Drewry has
specified skip change for a two hand turn, the following figure is
usually a slip step circle; for that transition, both the two hands
for the turn, and the skip change of step, make good sense.

I agree with Ian that the skip change is more natural in many other
applications, and I think many dancers understand that intuitively:
for example, if they are not "corrected" many, many times when
learning set and turn corners, they will automatically switch to skip
change for the turns.

FWIW,

Peter McClure
Winnipeg, MB, Canada

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Message 53823 · Marian Stroh · 16 Oct 2008 01:56:48 · Top

Please unscribe me for 10 days.

Marian Stroh

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