strathspey Archive: She's Ower Young to Marry Yet, bars 29-32

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She's Ower Young to Marry Yet, bars 29-32

Message 53623 · e.ferguson · 30 Sep 2008 02:11:58 · Top

Dear All,

The instructions for bars 29-32 of "She's Ower Young to Marry Yet" say:

"First, second and third couples turn partners one and a half times to
own side of the dance"

The Manual (old and new versions) makes no addition to this.

TacNotes says "29-32 2H turn. See also Manual" (?? Why? The Manual
says nothing ??)

As the RSCDS is revising old dance descriptions, it might be wise to
specify clearly if this turn is BH, RH, or "left to the dancers to
choose".

Happy dancing,

Eric

--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3,
3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: 030-2673638
e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl

She's Ower Young to Marry Yet, bars 29-32

Message 53624 · Iain Boyd · 30 Sep 2008 02:45:15 · Top

Dear Eric,

From the 'dim dark past' -

the default hands in turns (especially four bar turns) where the hands are not specified were -

     strathspey - both hands

     reel and jig - right hands.

Regards,

Iain Boyd

Postal Address -

P O Box 11-404

Wellington

New Zealand

--- On Tue, 30/9/08, Eric Ferguson <e.ferguson@antenna.nl> wrote:
From: Eric Ferguson <e.ferguson@antenna.nl>
Subject: She's Ower Young to Marry Yet, bars 29-32
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Received: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 1:11 PM

Dear All,

The instructions for bars 29-32 of "She's Ower Young to Marry
Yet" say:

"First, second and third couples turn partners one and a half times to
own side of the dance"

The Manual (old and new versions) makes no addition to this.

TacNotes says "29-32 2H turn. See also Manual" (?? Why? The Manual

says nothing ??)

As the RSCDS is revising old dance descriptions, it might be wise to
specify clearly if this turn is BH, RH, or "left to the dancers to
choose".

Happy dancing,

Eric

--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3,
3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: 030-2673638
e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl

Need a holiday? Check out Yahoo!Xtra Travel - http://nz.travel.yahoo.com/

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53625 · Mikhail Smagin · 30 Sep 2008 09:00:23 · Top

Dear Friends!

I have a question about the dance called "Come Ashore Jolly Tar" from RSCDS Book 7.
According to the crib, 1st couple begins on the opposite sides and dances with the 2nd. After the end of the first 32 bars, 1st couple finishes on the second place and begins to dance with the third couple.
When does the 2nd couple changes places to begin to dance after the 64 bars?

Sincerely yours
MS


---------------------------------

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Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53627 · e.ferguson · 30 Sep 2008 13:33:26 · Top

No extra instructions are given in the RSCDS Manual.

TACNotes (4th edition, 1995) says that when this dance is danced in a
longways set:

"2nd cpl crosses to opposite side on bars 31-32 of the 1st cpl's first
repetition. As each cpl reaches the bottom they cross back to own sides
on bars 31-32 of the next turn of the dance."

Obviously the problem does not arise when the dance is done "round the
room".

Does anyone have further information?

Happy dancing,

Eric

On 30 Sep 2008 at 11:00, Mikhail Smagin wrote:

> Dear Friends!
>
> I have a question about the dance called "Come Ashore Jolly Tar" from
> RSCDS Book 7. According to the crib, 1st couple begins on the opposite
> sides and dances with the 2nd. After the end of the first 32 bars, 1st
> couple finishes on the second place and begins to dance with the third
> couple. When does the 2nd couple changes places to begin to dance after
> the 64 bars?
>
> Sincerely yours
> MS
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Yahoo!? . Yahoo! !
>

--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3,
3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: 030-2673638
e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53631 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Sep 2008 14:54:04 · Top

I imagine it is usually handled the way that English dancers do when dancing duple improper (or whatever the correct term is) - while you're standing out at one end or the other, cross over when you remember you need to! Either at the beginning or the end or in the middle of your idle 32 bars, just do it unobtrusively.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA
-- "Eric Ferguson" <e.ferguson@antenna.nl> wrote:
No extra instructions are given in the RSCDS Manual.

TACNotes (4th edition, 1995) says that when this dance is danced in a
longways set:

"2nd cpl crosses to opposite side on bars 31-32 of the 1st cpl's first
repetition. As each cpl reaches the bottom they cross back to own sides
on bars 31-32 of the next turn of the dance."

Obviously the problem does not arise when the dance is done "round the
room".

Does anyone have further information?

Happy dancing,

Eric

On 30 Sep 2008 at 11:00, Mikhail Smagin wrote:

> Dear Friends!
>
> I have a question about the dance called "Come Ashore Jolly Tar" from
> RSCDS Book 7. According to the crib, 1st couple begins on the opposite
> sides and dances with the 2nd. After the end of the first 32 bars, 1st
> couple finishes on the second place and begins to dance with the third
> couple. When does the 2nd couple changes places to begin to dance after
> the 64 bars?
>
> Sincerely yours
> MS
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Yahoo!? . Yahoo! !
>

--
Eric T. Ferguson,
van Reenenweg 3,
3702 SB ZEIST Netherlands
tel: 030-2673638
e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53647 · Patricia Ruggiero · 1 Oct 2008 03:20:17 · Top

Becky wrote:
> I imagine it is usually handled the way that English dancers do when
> dancing duple improper (or whatever the correct term is)

That is correct. Can also be said "duple minor improper."

Pat
Charlottesville, Virginia
USA

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53653 · Mike Mudrey · 1 Oct 2008 16:57:24 · Top

>
>That is correct. Can also be said "duple minor improper."

Trivial aside, if the dance is improper, than the man on the woman's
side, and the woman on the man's side are not on the "wrong side."

"Wrong" implies that the dancer is not in the proper position.

This is one of my pet peeves. Some callers keep talking about ending
of the wrong side when what is meant is improper.

The whole set is the entire line of dancers, broken into segments
called minors.

In Scottish the whole set is generally 3 couples in a four couple
configuration.

A two couple dance with only two couples not in a minor configuration
(ie they do not progress down the set). We also, in ECD, have dances
with no progression, generally USA dances and whole sets with as many
as will with our without minor sets (Sellenger's Roung, for example).

Wait until you hear my pet's about how to execute a reel or hey.

Mike

Being improper

Message 53656 · Andrew Buxton · 1 Oct 2008 17:46:19 · Top

I think the modern terminology of "opposite sides" is even worse, because partners are almost always on opposite sides to each other!

-----
Andrew Buxton
Lewes, East Sussex, UK

--- On Wed, 1/10/08, Michael Mudrey <mgmudrey@mhtc.net> wrote:

From: Michael Mudrey <mgmudrey@mhtc.net>
Subject: RE: Come Ashore Jolly Tar
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 3:57 PM

>
>That is correct. Can also be said "duple minor improper."

Trivial aside, if the dance is improper, than the man on the woman's
side, and the woman on the man's side are not on the "wrong
side."

"Wrong" implies that the dancer is not in the proper position.

This is one of my pet peeves. Some callers keep talking about ending
of the wrong side when what is meant is improper.


Being improper

Message 53657 · Anselm Lingnau · 1 Oct 2008 17:59:59 · Top

Andrew Buxton wrote:

> I think the modern terminology of "opposite sides" is even worse, because
> partners are almost always on opposite sides to each other!

No, that's »opposite sides« in contrast to »own sides«, that is, the side that
is not your own.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
ACCORDIONATED (ah kor' de on ay tid) adj. Being able to drive and refold a
road map at the same time. -- »Twenty Words That Should Exist«

Being improper

Message 53665 · adriana linden · 2 Oct 2008 03:59:48 · Top

LOL this is one of my pet beefs, and for precisely the reason Andrew stated.  I try and use the terms "own side" or "partner's side", but I do admit that the ECD terms of "proper" and "improper" severely tempt me, as they are short and clear! 

And of course, unless one is doing the dance choreography incorrectly, there can be no "wrong" and "right" with respect to sides.

Adriana Linden
Montreal QC

Sometimes it's MUCH more effective to call... 450-672-1391 ;-)

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, Andrew Buxton <andrew.buxton@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Andrew Buxton <andrew.buxton@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Being improper
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Received: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 11:46 AM

I think the modern terminology of "opposite sides" is even worse,
because partners are almost always on opposite sides to each other!

-----
Andrew Buxton
Lewes, East Sussex, UK

--- On Wed, 1/10/08, Michael Mudrey <mgmudrey@mhtc.net> wrote:

From: Michael Mudrey <mgmudrey@mhtc.net>
Subject: RE: Come Ashore Jolly Tar
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 3:57 PM

>
>That is correct. Can also be said "duple minor improper."

Trivial aside, if the dance is improper, than the man on the woman's
side, and the woman on the man's side are not on the "wrong
side."

"Wrong" implies that the dancer is not in the proper position.

This is one of my pet peeves. Some callers keep talking about ending
of the wrong side when what is meant is improper.

__________________________________________________________________
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Being improper

Message 53669 · Patricia Ruggiero · 2 Oct 2008 04:30:48 · Top

Adriana wrote:
> but I do
> admit that the ECD terms of "proper" and "improper" severely tempt me, as
> they are short and clear!

I use them in ECD. I like them. I like the sound of them. I like that they
are historical terms. BUT -- you'd be surprised at how many dancers
interpret "and the 1s end proper" as "the 1s are improper."

Pat
Charlottesville, Virginia
USA

Being improper

Message 53671 · Volleyballjerry · 2 Oct 2008 08:33:51 · Top

In a message dated 10/1/2008 9:00:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
anselm@strathspey.org writes:

No, that's »opposite sides« in contrast to »own sides«, that is, the side
that
is not your own.

Anselm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Genau, and thus as good a term as anything else.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
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Being improper

Message 53674 · Andrew Buxton · 2 Oct 2008 10:22:43 · Top

In the briefing "2s and 4s end on opposite sides" it's doubly ambiguous - (a) opposite to partner? (b) 2s opposite way to 4s? or (c) opposite way to "normal"?  "Proper" solves it nicely - there is no ambiguity about 2s and 4s end improper. Unfortunately the word "proper" isn't much used to mean "own" these days - except in French!
 
Andrew Buxton
Lewes, East Sussex, UK

--- On Thu, 2/10/08, adriana linden <adrianalinden@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: adriana linden <adrianalinden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Being improper
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Date: Thursday, 2 October, 2008, 2:59 AM

LOL this is one of my pet beefs, and for precisely the reason Andrew stated.  I
try and use the terms "own side" or "partner's side",
but I do admit that the ECD terms of "proper" and "improper"
severely tempt me, as they are short and clear! 

And of course, unless one is doing the dance choreography incorrectly, there
can be no "wrong" and "right" with respect to sides.

Adriana Linden
Montreal QC


Being improper

Message 53676 · campbell · 2 Oct 2008 10:58:22 · Top

Andrew wrote:
>In the briefing "2s and 4s end on opposite sides" it's doubly ambiguous -
(a) >opposite to partner? (b) 2s opposite way to 4s? or (c) opposite way to
>"normal"?  "Proper" solves it nicely - there is no ambiguity about 2s and
4s end >improper. Unfortunately the word "proper" isn't much used to mean
"own" >these days - except in French!
 
In (a) above, I always assume opposite to partner in such a briefing as I
would expect to be explicitly told otherwise, in (b) I again would expect
explicitly to be told that 2s end on their own sides, whilst 4s end on the
(whatever) side, so to me (c) is the only option that makes sense and there
is no ambiguity.

As someone with no background in ECD and for whom the words "proper" and
"improper" have only their normal everyday meanings, I would find it highly
unusual to use either of these words. I would rather be told I had to end
on the "wrong" side than be told to end on the "improper" side. Good grief,
I would feel very embarrassed to think I had to do something improper. But
to be told I had to end on the opposite, alternative or other side is for me
best. I have never had any problem with my class in using the term
opposite.

Campbell Tyler
Cape Town

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53658 · Pia Walker · 1 Oct 2008 18:08:07 · Top

But I thought we decided not long ago, that two 'wrongs' was a right :>)

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mudrey [mailto:mgmudrey@mhtc.net]
Sent: 01 October 2008 15:57
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: Come Ashore Jolly Tar

>
>That is correct. Can also be said "duple minor improper."

Trivial aside, if the dance is improper, than the man on the woman's
side, and the woman on the man's side are not on the "wrong side."

"Wrong" implies that the dancer is not in the proper position.

This is one of my pet peeves. Some callers keep talking about ending
of the wrong side when what is meant is improper.

The whole set is the entire line of dancers, broken into segments
called minors.

In Scottish the whole set is generally 3 couples in a four couple
configuration.

A two couple dance with only two couples not in a minor configuration
(ie they do not progress down the set). We also, in ECD, have dances
with no progression, generally USA dances and whole sets with as many
as will with our without minor sets (Sellenger's Roung, for example).

Wait until you hear my pet's about how to execute a reel or hey.

Mike

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53661 · Patricia Ruggiero · 1 Oct 2008 21:00:27 · Top

Mike wrote:

> Wait until you hear my pet's about how to execute a reel or hey.

While we're waiting, I tell you my irritation with the term "USA" dances.
This term is meant to indicate the "Playford formula" dances wherein the
second figure is "Sides" and the third figure is "Armes." The first figure
is NOT, however, always "up a double" (hence: USA dance); it can just as
readily be Forward a Double or Two Doubles Round and Back Again (a slipping
circle nowadays).

Pat

Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53663 · Mike Mudrey · 2 Oct 2008 02:22:07 · Top

At 02:00 PM 10/1/2008, you wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>
> > Wait until you hear my pet's about how to execute a reel or hey.
>
>
>While we're waiting, I tell you my irritation with the term "USA" dances.
>This term is meant to indicate the "Playford formula" dances wherein the
>second figure is "Sides" and the third figure is "Armes." The first figure
>is NOT, however, always "up a double" (hence: USA dance); it can just as
>readily be Forward a Double or Two Doubles Round and Back Again (a slipping
>circle nowadays).
>
>Pat

For those of us in this part of the world that does not mean
Playford, it means a dance with ...SUSA (slipping, Up a double,
Siding, Arming). That has been a standard shorthand for dances that
use one or more of those intrinsic figures (with perhaps
modifications to them) with a same or similar chorus between the
parts. The figures or the chorus may or may not have set and/or turn single

We call Playford dances, Playford, we call Pat Shaw dances, Shaw
dances, we call Freid deMetz Herman dances Freid de Metz Herman
dances, we call Victor Skoronski dances Victor Skonsky dances, even
though all of these devisors use SUSA figures, we never call them Playford.

Sellenger's Round is a SUSA dance for one couple in a multi-couple whole set

Handel with Care is a USA dance for two couples

Black Nag is a USA dance for three couples.

All three of the dances here are not progressive.

Mike in the Midwest

somewhat OT: Playford Formula. Was:: Come Ashore Jolly Tar

Message 53667 · Patricia Ruggiero · 2 Oct 2008 04:07:43 · Top

Mike wrote:
> For those of us in this part of the world that does not mean
> Playford, it means a dance with ...SUSA (slipping, Up a double,
> Siding, Arming).

I did not say "Playford." I said "Playford formula." It's a term I've
heard dance researchers use as shorthand for the three-part dances in the
format of Up a Double/Forward a Double/Circle; Sides; Armes. It's more
precise than USA (or SUSA, as you've now introduced) because the first
figure varies.

"UP" indicates movement toward The Presence (or the music). FORWARD
indicates that lines or couples advance toward each other.

> Sellenger's Round is a SUSA dance for one couple in a multi-couple whole
set

Sellenger's does indeed have *four* Playford figures, but the second one is
Forward a Double (into the circle), not UP a Double.

> Handel with Care is a USA dance for two couples

The first figure is Forward a Double to Meet, not UP a double.

> Black Nag is a USA dance for three couples.

The first figure is UP a double.

> All three of the dances here are not progressive.

If I'm not mistaken, no Playford Formula dance is progressive.

If you want to continue this discussion, we should do so privately because I
think we've gotten rather away from SCD. But I would like to hear, on This
List, your pet peeve about how reels and heys are executed.

> Mike in the Midwest

Pat in the mid-Atlantic

Mix of Live and recorded music

Message 53679 · Mikhail Smagin · 2 Oct 2008 12:21:22 · Top


Hello All!

Thanks to everyone, who have answered on the question about musicians and music. One more question about the same topic.

Some people have written about the using both live musician and recorded music during the lesson. I'd like to ask teachers as well as people, who have attended such lessons. Could you describe more detailed, - how it went. How was the impression of such lessons? What the attenders think about such lessons? And so on.

Thank you in advance.
MS


---------------------------------

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Mix of Live and recorded music

Message 53687 · sophie.rickebusch · 2 Oct 2008 19:04:22 · Top

Hi,

I had a new musician in one of the classes I used to teach in Zurich. We
usually arranged that she should prepare 1-2 dances per evening (with
the correct tune and alternatives for the repeats). She'd play for
warm-up (march, waltz) and step practice and we'd always do the dance(s)
she'd prepared in the first half of the evening (though maybe with a
dance to recorded music in between), so she could leave at the break if
she wanted. This suited everyone, it seems: the musician got to play in
"real" conditions, but she got a rest between dances when we used
recorded music, plus she could listen to the recording and watch the
dancers to see how music and dance fit together - she'd usually stay
even after the break. The dancers were happy to have a musician, but
they also found it difficult if the tempo was a bit slow or irregular,
so this was a good compromise.

Cheers,
Sophie

Mikhail Smagin wrote:
>
> Hello All!
>
> Thanks to everyone, who have answered on the question about musicians and music. One more question about the same topic.
>
> Some people have written about the using both live musician and recorded music during the lesson. I'd like to ask teachers as well as people, who have attended such lessons. Could you describe more detailed, - how it went. How was the impression of such lessons? What the attenders think about such lessons? And so on.
>
> Thank you in advance.
> MS
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Вы уже с Yahoo!? Испытайте обновленную и улучшенную. Yahoo! Почту!
>
>

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

Live musician VS recording

Message 53626 · Mikhail Smagin · 30 Sep 2008 13:12:01 · Top

Dear firends,

I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different opinions:

1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy" tunes for "Linton Ploughman".

2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.

Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?

Sincerely yours
MS


---------------------------------

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Live musician VS recording

Message 53628 · Andrew Buxton · 30 Sep 2008 13:48:30 · Top

I think if you're lucky  enough to have a live musician for your class (which many clubs aren't) you should accept whatever tunes he/she can play.  After all, at a dance only one or two couples get to dance to the "native" tune.  It will probably only be the more experienced dancers who know what the native tune is, and it won't hurt them to cope with something else.
 
Andrew

-----
Andrew Buxton
Lewes, East Sussex, UK

--- On Tue, 30/9/08, Mikhail Smagin <rscds_russia@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Mikhail Smagin <rscds_russia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Live musician VS recording
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Date: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 12:12 PM

Dear firends,

I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live musician
and recordings during the lessons. There are two different opinions:

1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and
airy" tunes for "Linton Ploughman".

2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the
previously mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for
"Linton Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't
play it.

Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?

Sincerely
yours
MS


---------------------------------

Вы уже с Yahoo!? Испытайте обновленную и
улучшенную. Yahoo! Почту!


Live musician VS recording

Message 53629 · Martin Campoveja · 30 Sep 2008 13:57:48 · Top

Can't answer, I'm afraid.We have only dead musicans here -- and lively CDs.

Martin

Live musician VS recording

Message 53654 · John Chambers · 1 Oct 2008 15:08:52 · Top

Martin Campoveja wrote:
| Can't answer, I'm afraid.We have only dead musicans here -- and lively CDs.

I've played at a few dances where we incorporated a few Grateful Dead
tunes into the mixture, so we could tell people that we'd decided to
play "Dead music" this time.

--
I ♡ Unicode

Live musician VS recording

Message 53630 · Anselm Lingnau · 30 Sep 2008 14:01:37 · Top

Mikhail Smagin wrote:

> I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live
> musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different
> opinions:
>
> 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
> wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy"
> tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
>
> 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously
> mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton
> Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
>
> Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?

I think that the answer is »It depends«.

First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer than recorded music.
There are obvious exceptions, such as when the musician(s) is/are so
atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or play more wrong notes than
right ones, but if it is a choice between a great recording of a dance (with
the recommended tune etc.) and a possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
live version of the same then most of the time the live version should be
preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.

For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a class musician who can
play the original music for anything at half a minute's notice then more
power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the convenience of having
available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at the requisite speed
is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if you don't get the
original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion 1.

The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not simply fall
fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be learned, and like
many occupations can only be learned through practice, which means actual
playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the same tunes in the privacy
of one's home). Thus if you want to have good musicians, you must give them
opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching your teeth and
putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton Ploughman. Consider
it an investment in the future. Also, when I was starting out as a musician I
used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good reel/jig/...« for
teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for the actual 8x32
dance-through. This gave me some practice without depriving the class of
decent music for their dances.

For functions, again it is great to have a band that can play CD-perfect sets
of tunes for all dances, including the recommended tunes and all that. Many
more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether the »original« music is
played for many dances, and with some of the very favourite ones (think
Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay, etc.) anything other than
the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of eyebrows. The recipe for
success for social functions if you cannot (or don't want to) bring in a
(semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation. Get in touch with the
musicians, find out which dances they can play (and enjoy playing) and
include as many of these on the programme as is convenient, and/or plan the
programme far enough in advance so that the band can work out the appropriate
tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that are reasonably
well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet music published along
with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with time, get used to the
local favourites.

There are various documents on the Strathspey server that deal with the care
and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further help. A fair number
of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey list and would presumably
be happy to help with related queries.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth of dids. -- Larry Wall

Live musician VS recording

Message 53632 · Etienne Ozorak · 30 Sep 2008 14:57:51 · Top

My 2 cetns, for what it's worth.

Two things that are important to mention. First,
if a dancer comes in the room, you don't assume
that the person can instantly dance Linton
Ploughman or Light and Airy or any other dance
for that matter. Dancers are not expected to
recall every single dance they've ever
encountered. Same with musicians (if you're
lucky enough to find someone dedicated enough to
play for SCD). They either know something or
they don't. There are 13,000 dances. I have no
idea how many tunes there are in the SCD
repertoire, but I am sure it's a lot more than 13,000.

Sure there's a difference between what's in a
common repertoire and the whole repertoire, but
what is reasonable to expect from a single human
being? And what is reasonable, considering what
groups are willing to pay for these services? I
think we just need to cut each other some slack.

Second, a recording cannot convey a person's
humanity, a person's energy. If these elements
are irrelevant to the class or evening dance
experience, then recordings are fine. However,
if energy and excitement is what you want, then
recognize that recordings will usually be more
limited in helping to create this.

The learning curve is very steep for any
musician. Without community support, it's an uphill struggle.

Etienne Ozorak
Meadville, PA USA

At 08:01 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:
>Mikhail Smagin wrote:
>
> > I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live
> > musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different
> > opinions:
> >
> > 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
> > wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy"
> > tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
> >
> > 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously
> > mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton
> > Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
> >
> > Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>
>I think that the answer is »It depends«.
>
>First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer than recorded music.
>There are obvious exceptions, such as when the musician(s) is/are so
>atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or play more wrong notes than
>right ones, but if it is a choice between a great recording of a dance (with
>the recommended tune etc.) and a possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
>live version of the same then most of the time the live version should be
>preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.
>
>For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a class musician who can
>play the original music for anything at half a minute's notice then more
>power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the convenience of having
>available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at the requisite speed
>is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if you don't get the
>original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion 1.
>
>The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not simply fall
>fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be learned, and like
>many occupations can only be learned through practice, which means actual
>playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the same tunes in the privacy
>of one's home). Thus if you want to have good musicians, you must give them
>opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching your teeth and
>putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton Ploughman. Consider
>it an investment in the future. Also, when I was starting out as a musician I
>used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good reel/jig/...« for
>teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for the actual 8x32
>dance-through. This gave me some practice without depriving the class of
>decent music for their dances.
>
>For functions, again it is great to have a band that can play CD-perfect sets
>of tunes for all dances, including the recommended tunes and all that. Many
>more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether the »original« music is
>played for many dances, and with some of the very favourite ones (think
>Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay, etc.) anything other than
>the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of eyebrows. The recipe for
>success for social functions if you cannot (or don't want to) bring in a
>(semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation. Get in touch with the
>musicians, find out which dances they can play (and enjoy playing) and
>include as many of these on the programme as is convenient, and/or plan the
>programme far enough in advance so that the band can work out the appropriate
>tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that are reasonably
>well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet music published along
>with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with time, get used to the
>local favourites.
>
>There are various documents on the Strathspey server that deal with the care
>and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further help. A fair number
>of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey list and would presumably
>be happy to help with related queries.
>
>Anselm
>--
>Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
>The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth of dids. -- Larry Wall

Live musician VS recording

Message 53633 · SMiskoe · 30 Sep 2008 15:00:28 · Top

Anselm said it all. Live music really is better than recorded but playing
for classes and dances is a skill that takes much practice and attention to
detail. Getting a copy of 'Originally Ours' that has all the designated tunes
will help, as will telling the musician in advance what you want so they can
dig out the music and practice.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

Live musician VS recording

Message 53636 · elissa h · 30 Sep 2008 16:14:31 · Top

Well said....and oh how I know about learning curves. :-)

elissa hock
Akron, OH


On Tuesday, September 30, 2008, at 05:57AM, "Etienne Ozorak" <etozorak@allegheny.edu> wrote:
>My 2 cetns, for what it's worth.
>
>Two things that are important to mention. First,
>if a dancer comes in the room, you don't assume
>that the person can instantly dance Linton
>Ploughman or Light and Airy or any other dance
>for that matter. Dancers are not expected to
>recall every single dance they've ever
>encountered. Same with musicians (if you're
>lucky enough to find someone dedicated enough to
>play for SCD). They either know something or
>they don't. There are 13,000 dances. I have no
>idea how many tunes there are in the SCD
>repertoire, but I am sure it's a lot more than 13,000.
>
>Sure there's a difference between what's in a
>common repertoire and the whole repertoire, but
>what is reasonable to expect from a single human
>being? And what is reasonable, considering what
>groups are willing to pay for these services? I
>think we just need to cut each other some slack.
>
>Second, a recording cannot convey a person's
>humanity, a person's energy. If these elements
>are irrelevant to the class or evening dance
>experience, then recordings are fine. However,
>if energy and excitement is what you want, then
>recognize that recordings will usually be more
>limited in helping to create this.
>
>The learning curve is very steep for any
>musician. Without community support, it's an uphill struggle.
>
>Etienne Ozorak
>Meadville, PA USA
>
>At 08:01 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:
>>Mikhail Smagin wrote:
>>
>> > I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live
>> > musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different
>> > opinions:
>> >
>> > 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
>> > wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy"
>> > tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
>> >
>> > 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously
>> > mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton
>> > Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
>> >
>> > Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>>
>>I think that the answer is »It depends«.
>>
>>First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer than recorded music.
>>There are obvious exceptions, such as when the musician(s) is/are so
>>atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or play more wrong notes than
>>right ones, but if it is a choice between a great recording of a dance (with
>>the recommended tune etc.) and a possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
>>live version of the same then most of the time the live version should be
>>preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.
>>
>>For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a class musician who can
>>play the original music for anything at half a minute's notice then more
>>power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the convenience of having
>>available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at the requisite speed
>>is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if you don't get the
>>original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion 1.
>>
>>The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not simply fall
>>fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be learned, and like
>>many occupations can only be learned through practice, which means actual
>>playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the same tunes in the privacy
>>of one's home). Thus if you want to have good musicians, you must give them
>>opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching your teeth and
>>putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton Ploughman. Consider
>>it an investment in the future. Also, when I was starting out as a musician I
>>used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good reel/jig/...« for
>>teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for the actual 8x32
>>dance-through. This gave me some practice without depriving the class of
>>decent music for their dances.
>>
>>For functions, again it is great to have a band that can play CD-perfect sets
>>of tunes for all dances, including the recommended tunes and all that. Many
>>more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether the »original« music is
>>played for many dances, and with some of the very favourite ones (think
>>Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay, etc.) anything other than
>>the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of eyebrows. The recipe for
>>success for social functions if you cannot (or don't want to) bring in a
>>(semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation. Get in touch with the
>>musicians, find out which dances they can play (and enjoy playing) and
>>include as many of these on the programme as is convenient, and/or plan the
>>programme far enough in advance so that the band can work out the appropriate
>>tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that are reasonably
>>well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet music published along
>>with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with time, get used to the
>>local favourites.
>>
>>There are various documents on the Strathspey server that deal with the care
>>and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further help. A fair number
>>of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey list and would presumably
>>be happy to help with related queries.
>>
>>Anselm
>>--
>>Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
>>The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth of dids. -- Larry Wall
>
>
>

Live musician VS recording

Message 53638 · Steven Epstein · 30 Sep 2008 16:56:35 · Top

This couldn't have been said better, either.

Steve Epstein
Lancaster, PA, USA

--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Etienne Ozorak <etozorak@allegheny.edu> wrote:

> From: Etienne Ozorak <etozorak@allegheny.edu>
> Subject: Re: Live musician VS recording
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 8:57 AM
> My 2 cetns, for what it's worth.
>
> Two things that are important to mention. First,
> if a dancer comes in the room, you don't assume
> that the person can instantly dance Linton
> Ploughman or Light and Airy or any other dance
> for that matter. Dancers are not expected to
> recall every single dance they've ever
> encountered. Same with musicians (if you're
> lucky enough to find someone dedicated enough to
> play for SCD). They either know something or
> they don't. There are 13,000 dances. I have no
> idea how many tunes there are in the SCD
> repertoire, but I am sure it's a lot more than 13,000.
>
> Sure there's a difference between what's in a
> common repertoire and the whole repertoire, but
> what is reasonable to expect from a single human
> being? And what is reasonable, considering what
> groups are willing to pay for these services? I
> think we just need to cut each other some slack.
>
> Second, a recording cannot convey a person's
> humanity, a person's energy. If these elements
> are irrelevant to the class or evening dance
> experience, then recordings are fine. However,
> if energy and excitement is what you want, then
> recognize that recordings will usually be more
> limited in helping to create this.
>
> The learning curve is very steep for any
> musician. Without community support, it's an uphill
> struggle.
>
> Etienne Ozorak
> Meadville, PA USA
>
> At 08:01 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:
> >Mikhail Smagin wrote:
> >
> > > I have a discussion with some of our dancers
> about the use of the live
> > > musician and recordings during the lessons. There
> are two different
> > > opinions:
> > >
> > > 1. It's always better to use live musician,
> although he sometimes will play
> > > wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to
> play set of "Light and airy"
> > > tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
> > >
> > > 2. Preference must be showed to the
> "native" tunes. So, in the previously
> > > mentioned example, it's better to use a
> recorded music for "Linton
> > > Ploughman" if a musician, according to some
> reasons, can't play it.
> > >
> > > Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
> >
> >I think that the answer is »It depends«.
> >
> >First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer
> than recorded music.
> >There are obvious exceptions, such as when the
> musician(s) is/are so
> >atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or
> play more wrong notes than
> >right ones, but if it is a choice between a great
> recording of a dance (with
> >the recommended tune etc.) and a
> possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
> >live version of the same then most of the time the live
> version should be
> >preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.
> >
> >For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a
> class musician who can
> >play the original music for anything at half a
> minute's notice then more
> >power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the
> convenience of having
> >available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at
> the requisite speed
> >is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if
> you don't get the
> >original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion
> 1.
> >
> >The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not
> simply fall
> >fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be
> learned, and like
> >many occupations can only be learned through practice,
> which means actual
> >playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the
> same tunes in the privacy
> >of one's home). Thus if you want to have good
> musicians, you must give them
> >opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching
> your teeth and
> >putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton
> Ploughman. Consider
> >it an investment in the future. Also, when I was
> starting out as a musician I
> >used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good
> reel/jig/...« for
> >teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for
> the actual 8x32
> >dance-through. This gave me some practice without
> depriving the class of
> >decent music for their dances.
> >
> >For functions, again it is great to have a band that
> can play CD-perfect sets
> >of tunes for all dances, including the recommended
> tunes and all that. Many
> >more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether
> the »original« music is
> >played for many dances, and with some of the very
> favourite ones (think
> >Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay,
> etc.) anything other than
> >the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of
> eyebrows. The recipe for
> >success for social functions if you cannot (or
> don't want to) bring in a
> >(semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation.
> Get in touch with the
> >musicians, find out which dances they can play (and
> enjoy playing) and
> >include as many of these on the programme as is
> convenient, and/or plan the
> >programme far enough in advance so that the band can
> work out the appropriate
> >tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that
> are reasonably
> >well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet
> music published along
> >with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with
> time, get used to the
> >local favourites.
> >
> >There are various documents on the Strathspey server
> that deal with the care
> >and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further
> help. A fair number
> >of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey
> list and would presumably
> >be happy to help with related queries.
> >
> >Anselm
> >--
> >Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany
> ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
> >The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth
> of dids. -- Larry Wall


Live musician VS recording

Message 53637 · Steven Epstein · 30 Sep 2008 16:53:14 · Top

This could not have been said better.

Steve Epstein
Lancaster, PA, USA

--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:

> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> Subject: Re: Live musician VS recording
> To: strathspey@strathspey.org
> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 8:01 AM
> Mikhail Smagin wrote:
>
> > I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the
> use of the live
> > musician and recordings during the lessons. There are
> two different
> > opinions:
> >
> > 1. It's always better to use live musician,
> although he sometimes will play
> > wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set
> of "Light and airy"
> > tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
> >
> > 2. Preference must be showed to the "native"
> tunes. So, in the previously
> > mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded
> music for "Linton
> > Ploughman" if a musician, according to some
> reasons, can't play it.
> >
> > Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>
> I think that the answer is »It depends«.
>
> First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer than
> recorded music.
> There are obvious exceptions, such as when the musician(s)
> is/are so
> atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or play
> more wrong notes than
> right ones, but if it is a choice between a great recording
> of a dance (with
> the recommended tune etc.) and a
> possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
> live version of the same then most of the time the live
> version should be
> preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.
>
> For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a class
> musician who can
> play the original music for anything at half a minute's
> notice then more
> power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the
> convenience of having
> available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at the
> requisite speed
> is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if you
> don't get the
> original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion 1.
>
> The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not
> simply fall
> fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be
> learned, and like
> many occupations can only be learned through practice,
> which means actual
> playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the same
> tunes in the privacy
> of one's home). Thus if you want to have good
> musicians, you must give them
> opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching
> your teeth and
> putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton
> Ploughman. Consider
> it an investment in the future. Also, when I was starting
> out as a musician I
> used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good
> reel/jig/...« for
> teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for the
> actual 8x32
> dance-through. This gave me some practice without depriving
> the class of
> decent music for their dances.
>
> For functions, again it is great to have a band that can
> play CD-perfect sets
> of tunes for all dances, including the recommended tunes
> and all that. Many
> more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether the
> »original« music is
> played for many dances, and with some of the very favourite
> ones (think
> Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay, etc.)
> anything other than
> the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of eyebrows.
> The recipe for
> success for social functions if you cannot (or don't
> want to) bring in a
> (semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation. Get
> in touch with the
> musicians, find out which dances they can play (and enjoy
> playing) and
> include as many of these on the programme as is convenient,
> and/or plan the
> programme far enough in advance so that the band can work
> out the appropriate
> tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that are
> reasonably
> well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet music
> published along
> with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with time,
> get used to the
> local favourites.
>
> There are various documents on the Strathspey server that
> deal with the care
> and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further
> help. A fair number
> of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey list
> and would presumably
> be happy to help with related queries.
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth of
> dids. -- Larry Wall


Live musician VS recording

Message 53634 · WENDY LOBERG · 30 Sep 2008 15:11:15 · Top

Hello,

For me it is always better to have live music regardless of the tune they
play. In my observation all of us dance at "our best" when dancing to live
music.

Wendy

>From: Mikhail Smagin <rscds_russia@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>To: strathspey@strathspey.org
>Subject: Live musician VS recording
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:12:01 +0400 (MSD)
>
> Dear firends,
>
>I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live
>musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different
>opinions:
>
>1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
>wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy"
>tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
>
>2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously
>mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton
>Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
>
>Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>
>
>Sincerely yours
>
> MS
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>÷Ù ÕÖÅ Ó Yahoo!? éÓÐÙÔÁÊÔÅ ÏÂÎÏ×ÌÅÎÎÕÀ É ÕÌÕÞÛÅÎÎÕÀ. Yahoo! ðÏÞÔÕ!

Live musician VS recording

Message 53639 · Steve Wyrick · 30 Sep 2008 16:56:39 · Top

1. it depends.

2. it depends.

As a dance fiddler myself, I'm biased towards the use of live music
however I realize there are times when recordings may be better--for
instance you're teaching basic steps to inexperienced dancers where
you need a very strong beat and your musician is incapable of
delivering a beat that your dancers can hear well enough--in that case
it may be better to put on a recording of a good accordion band, for
example. [Or sometimes it's worth using recordings so that the
dancers can realize what they miss by not having live music--hopefully
:-) ]

Regarding the proper music for the dance, I believe that sometimes it
matters and sometimes it doesn't. Personally, I have always tried to
use the correct tunes in classes and social dances--that takes a lot
of effort sometimes, and for classes requires that the teachers give
me some advance notice, which isn't always practical or possible. I
am coming to the conclusion that if it's not a very familiar dance,
most dancers won't notice or care if I use a set of tunes that have a
similar feel. The name tune is usually only played for 2 or 3 of the
repetitions in a dance so the dancers are dancing to some other tune
most of the time! -Steve

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 4:12 AM, Mikhail Smagin <rscds_russia@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear firends,
>
> I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different opinions:
>
> 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy" tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
>
> 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
>
> Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>
> Sincerely yours
> MS
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Вы уже с Yahoo!? Испытайте обновленную и улучшенную. Yahoo! Почту!
>

--
Steve Wyrick -- Walnut Creek, California

Live musician VS recording

Message 53641 · Rebecca Sager · 30 Sep 2008 17:22:21 · Top

Yes, BUT, in the absence of (a) musician(s) - don't sell your recordings short, Etienne!
There's energy and excitement to spare in just about every track of Catch the Wind and Jig For Joy!

Becky (who would rather dance to the right music on a good recording than to bad live music)

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

-- Etienne Ozorak <etozorak@allegheny.edu> wrote:
My 2 cetns, for what it's worth.

Two things that are important to mention. First,
if a dancer comes in the room, you don't assume
that the person can instantly dance Linton
Ploughman or Light and Airy or any other dance
for that matter. Dancers are not expected to
recall every single dance they've ever
encountered. Same with musicians (if you're
lucky enough to find someone dedicated enough to
play for SCD). They either know something or
they don't. There are 13,000 dances. I have no
idea how many tunes there are in the SCD
repertoire, but I am sure it's a lot more than 13,000.

Sure there's a difference between what's in a
common repertoire and the whole repertoire, but
what is reasonable to expect from a single human
being? And what is reasonable, considering what
groups are willing to pay for these services? I
think we just need to cut each other some slack.

Second, a recording cannot convey a person's
humanity, a person's energy. If these elements
are irrelevant to the class or evening dance
experience, then recordings are fine. However,
if energy and excitement is what you want, then
recognize that recordings will usually be more
limited in helping to create this.

The learning curve is very steep for any
musician. Without community support, it's an uphill struggle.

Etienne Ozorak
Meadville, PA USA

At 08:01 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:
>Mikhail Smagin wrote:
>
> > I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live
> > musician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different
> > opinions:
> >
> > 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will play
> > wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and airy"
> > tunes for "Linton Ploughman".
> >
> > 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously
> > mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton
> > Ploughman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
> >
> > Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?
>
>I think that the answer is »It depends«.
>
>First of all, in nearly all cases live music is nicer than recorded music.
>There are obvious exceptions, such as when the musician(s) is/are so
>atrocious that they can't keep up a steady beat or play more wrong notes than
>right ones, but if it is a choice between a great recording of a dance (with
>the recommended tune etc.) and a possibly-not-quite-that-great-but-still-good
>live version of the same then most of the time the live version should be
>preferable just because of the atmosphere it brings.
>
>For teaching, if you are fortunate enough to have a class musician who can
>play the original music for anything at half a minute's notice then more
>power to you. If, like many of us, you don't, the convenience of having
>available any number of bars in the requisite rhythm at the requisite speed
>is a definite plus of live vs. recorded music, even if you don't get the
>original music all the time. Chalk up one for opinion 1.
>
>The other point to observe is that SCD musicians do not simply fall
>fully-formed from the sky -- it is a craft that must be learned, and like
>many occupations can only be learned through practice, which means actual
>playing for actual dancers (rather than playing the same tunes in the privacy
>of one's home). Thus if you want to have good musicians, you must give them
>opportunities to practice, even if that means clenching your teeth and
>putting up with the Light and Airy music for the Linton Ploughman. Consider
>it an investment in the future. Also, when I was starting out as a musician I
>used to play chunks of 8, 16, or 32 bars of »any good reel/jig/...« for
>teaching and the teacher would put on a tape or CD for the actual 8x32
>dance-through. This gave me some practice without depriving the class of
>decent music for their dances.
>
>For functions, again it is great to have a band that can play CD-perfect sets
>of tunes for all dances, including the recommended tunes and all that. Many
>more experienced dancers will be able to tell whether the »original« music is
>played for many dances, and with some of the very favourite ones (think
>Mairi's Wedding, J.B. Milne, Birks of Invermay, etc.) anything other than
>the »correct« tune would probably raise lots of eyebrows. The recipe for
>success for social functions if you cannot (or don't want to) bring in a
>(semi-)professional SCD band is, I think, preparation. Get in touch with the
>musicians, find out which dances they can play (and enjoy playing) and
>include as many of these on the programme as is convenient, and/or plan the
>programme far enough in advance so that the band can work out the appropriate
>tunes to play. (Again, it helps to stick to dances that are reasonably
>well-known, such as RSCDS dances, or that have sheet music published along
>with the descriptions.) A local band will also, with time, get used to the
>local favourites.
>
>There are various documents on the Strathspey server that deal with the care
>and feeding of musicians, and which could be of further help. A fair number
>of dance musicians also subscribe to the Strathspey list and would presumably
>be happy to help with related queries.
>
>Anselm
>--
>Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
>The world manifests a cacophony of coulds, and a dearth of dids. -- Larry Wall

Live musician VS recording

Message 53645 · SMiskoe · 30 Sep 2008 18:21:43 · Top

Novice musicians have a hard time learning how to play for dancing unless
they have someone to mentor them. Workshops and courses on playing are few and
far between. While I understand what Becky is saying, how else do musicians
become competent?
In the early 1970's there was a great resurgence of live music for all forms
of dancing, here in New England. Biggest was for contra and square dancing.
While the Scots were somewhat interested they did not want anything that
was not as perfect as their recordings and they also felt that no matter how
good the musician was, unless they had been born and brought up in Scotland,
they could not play properly. It took a great deal of effort on the part of
the musicians to convince the dancers that yes, we could play, we would flock
to any workshop given by an experienced dance musician, please help us learn.
Most of the musicians who learned to play for SCD were already playing for
contra dancing and had the rudiments of playing for dancing. Those original
pioneers were then able to mentor new, interested, musicians. Besides
training the musicians, the dancers had to learn that live music was different from
polished reliable recordings.
As Alselm said, we don't spring fully formed like Venus from the sea.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

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Live musician VS recording

Message 53646 · Rosemary Coupe · 30 Sep 2008 20:51:42 · Top

Here's a system that has worked well for me with a new musician:

1. Ask the musician to play for one dance each week. Choose the dance well
ahead to allow plenty of practice time. Encourage the musician to play the
lead tune if possible but to combine it with other tunes she has played
before.

2. Lead up to the dance with preparatory work for which the musician plays
the lead tune (this gives extra practice time before the daunting test of
the 8 x 32 set).

3. Recognize that the hardest thing is the transition from one tune to
another without a blip in the rhythm. If the musician falters, the teacher
may have a keep the count going for the class, but doing this unnecessarily
would be demoralizing for the musician.

4. When working with a musician, emphasize that if possible the left hand
should keep the rhythm going even if the right hand loses the melody.

5. Involve the musician with the class as much as possible. Have her tell
the class about the tunes she has chosen.

6. If the musician is also a dancer, offer her free membership so she can
enjoy dancing with the group when she isn't playing.

It's great to have musician, teacher, and class all working together towards
a common end. My class really appreciate the effort the musician puts in,
and I think it helps them learn more about music too.

Rosemary Coupe
Vancouver

----- Original Message -----
From: <SMiskoe@aol.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Live musician VS recording

> Novice musicians have a hard time learning how to play for dancing unless
> they have someone to mentor them. Workshops and courses on playing are
> few and
> far between. While I understand what Becky is saying, how else do
> musicians
> become competent? .....

> As Anselm said, we don't spring fully formed like Venus from the sea.
> Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

Live musician VS recording

Message 53648 · Anselm Lingnau · 1 Oct 2008 11:08:20 · Top

Sylvia Miskoe wrote:

> While the Scots were somewhat interested they did not want
> anything that was not as perfect as their recordings and they also felt
> that no matter how good the musician was, unless they had been born and
> brought up in Scotland, they could not play properly. It took a great
> deal of effort on the part of the musicians to convince the dancers that
> yes, we could play, we would flock to any workshop given by an experienced
> dance musician, please help us learn.

We're approximately at this stage now in Germany. There is a small handful of
locals who get to play for various workshops and functions, but for the more
prestigious events it is still mandatory to have musicians from the UK. We're
much closer to there than you are, which is at once a good thing and a bad
thing -- a bad thing because it is comparatively simple and cheap for event
organisers to bring in the musical big guns from England and Scotland, so the
pressure isn't as big to encourage local talent, and a good thing because we
do get easier hold of the same musicians for workshops.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
In the first place, God made idiots; this was for practice; then he made
school boards. -- Mark Twain

Live musician VS recording

Message 53649 · Elainerb · 1 Oct 2008 13:25:36 · Top

One of the things I've done with newer musicians, is have them play for
class..... steps and formations and build up to a dance. Usually 8/16/ bar
junks.... maximum is 32 bars.

When we are ready to do the dance (8 x 32 bars) use a CD.

It is very intimidating to try to play 8 x 32 bars alone!
Make sure the new musicians have some good CD's to listen to.

For me as a teacher, having 8-32 bar junks readily available is great, and a
huge plus in a class, and I don't have an issue playing a CD for the actual
dance.

We (teachers) need to help up and coming musicians, who are willing, to
learn to play for classes and dances.

Classes need to be patient with new musicians, they have to learn too!
Once they are experienced in a weekly class...they can move up to a workshop.

Elaine B
Maryland, USA

Thank you to every musician who has played for my classes......


In a message dated 10/1/2008 5:09:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
anselm@strathspey.org writes:

Sylvia Miskoe wrote:

> While the Scots were somewhat interested they did not want
> anything that was not as perfect as their recordings and they also felt
> that no matter how good the musician was, unless they had been born and
> brought up in Scotland, they could not play properly. It took a great
> deal of effort on the part of the musicians to convince the dancers that
> yes, we could play, we would flock to any workshop given by an experienced
> dance musician, please help us learn.

We're approximately at this stage now in Germany. There is a small handful
of
locals who get to play for various workshops and functions, but for the more
prestigious events it is still mandatory to have musicians from the UK.
We're
much closer to there than you are, which is at once a good thing and a bad
thing -- a bad thing because it is comparatively simple and cheap for event
organisers to bring in the musical big guns from England and Scotland, so
the
pressure isn't as big to encourage local talent, and a good thing because we
do get easier hold of the same musicians for workshops.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
anselm@strathspey.org
In the first place, God made idiots; this was for practice; then he made
school boards. -- Mark Twain

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

Live musician VS recording

Message 53650 · Pia Walker · 1 Oct 2008 13:34:03 · Top

And musicians - remember not to look at the dancers - although they of
course would never admit it - they are just as apt to go wrong as you are
:>) :>)

I like having live music in class - it beats having to turn your back to the
class, push buttons and waste time and the spirit of the class is much
better. If you have a musician use him/her - that way everyone can learn as
you go along.

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Elainerb@aol.com [mailto:Elainerb@aol.com]
Sent: 01 October 2008 12:26
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Re: Live musician VS recording

One of the things I've done with newer musicians, is have them play for
class..... steps and formations and build up to a dance. Usually 8/16/
bar
junks.... maximum is 32 bars.

When we are ready to do the dance (8 x 32 bars) use a CD.

It is very intimidating to try to play 8 x 32 bars alone!
Make sure the new musicians have some good CD's to listen to.

For me as a teacher, having 8-32 bar junks readily available is great, and
a
huge plus in a class, and I don't have an issue playing a CD for the actual
dance.

We (teachers) need to help up and coming musicians, who are willing, to
learn to play for classes and dances.

Classes need to be patient with new musicians, they have to learn too!
Once they are experienced in a weekly class...they can move up to a
workshop.

Elaine B
Maryland, USA

Thank you to every musician who has played for my classes......

Live musician VS recording

Message 53651 · Marian Stroh · 1 Oct 2008 16:17:37 · Top

Thanks, expecially, to Elaine and Rosemary for their excellent suggestions
for using new musicians in classes. I have 3 new dancers who are excellent
musicians, and now I can begin to use them in class, too, without taking
everything away from them learning to dance!

Marian Stroh, Reno

Live musician VS recording

Message 53652 · John Chambers · 1 Oct 2008 14:47:14 · Top

Mikhail Smagin wrote:
| I have a discussion with some of our dancers about the use of the live mu=
| sician and recordings during the lessons. There are two different opinion=
| s:
|
| 1. It's always better to use live musician, although he sometimes will pl=
| ay wrong music for dances. Like, for example, to play set of "Light and a=
| iry" tunes for "Linton Ploughman".=20
|
| 2. Preference must be showed to the "native" tunes. So, in the previously=
| mentioned example, it's better to use a recorded music for "Linton Ploug=
| hman" if a musician, according to some reasons, can't play it.
|
| Which opinion seems for you more acceptable?

Neither, actually. I play for a fair number of dances here in the Boston (US,
not UK) area, and some of the teachers agree that sometimes it's best not to
use a dance's main tune during teaching. The best example is any of the
so-called strathspeys whose tune is actually a slow air. There's a problem
during teaching that such tunes are inherently not very rhytmic. So the
teacher may request that I play a "real strathspey" that has a strong beat.
Then, when the dancers have learned the dance, they'll say to switch to the
right tune, and challenge the dancers to change their style to match the feel
of this smoother sort of tune.

This is an extreme case, of course. The same thing can sometimes happen with
some reels that are "smooth and flowing" with lots of notes and not many
large leaps. Some teachers recognize this, and will ask for a "bouncier" tune
during teaching. Then again, they'll point out to the dancers that the dances
main tune is smoother and less rhythmic, and they should try to match the
different feel of this tune.

Granted, this sort of tune substitution isn't all that common. It only
applies to tunes that inherently have a very smooth feel, and that sort of
tune isn't too common in SCD, for the obvious reason. I always like to know
what the recommended tune for a dance is. If I didn't have enough advance
notice to (re)learn the tune, I can at least pick another that's rhythmically
similar.

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