strathspey Archive: No more sword dances?

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No more sword dances?

Message 52611 · Fiona Grant · 2 Jun 2008 22:48:53 · Top

Hello to all, but especially British citizens,

The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways,
but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be
banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have
been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of
the dance.

Currently, the government does not recognize dance as either a Historical
re-enactment or sporting activity and therefore dancers are not included
within the exemption for the purchase and use of swords with regards to the
VCR bill. These dances are forms of art that are of great historical and
cultural relevance. Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
been used in violent crime.

If you are resident in the UK, please have a look at this petition to the
Prime Minister on the Downing Street website.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers

Highland dances just will not look the same without swords, and where will
the Morris men be without their sticks to whack. If Gordon Brown owns up to
his Scottish heritage, we might hope he won’t deprive us of using real
swords to dance over, but I would not put money on it. Please sign the
petition if you are a British resident, or an ex-pat in an overseas
territory. And please pass on the news to any members of your dance groups.

On with the dance,
Fiona
Bristol
UK

No more sword dances?

Message 52616 · Anselm Lingnau · 3 Jun 2008 00:02:35 · Top

Fiona Grant wrote:

> Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
> mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
> been used in violent crime.

This misses the point somewhat, I think. The point is not »doing something
about the vast numbers of murders etc. being committed using highland
dancers' (dull) swords«. The point, on the politicians' part, »is being
perceived to do something dramatic for the public good«, even if the public
good doesn't really care one way or the other. Fortunately (from the point of
view of the proposing party), nobody can really be against the new law in
principle as that would be tantamount to condoning »sword crime«. Any
objections on the part of the parliamentary opposition would have to be on
the grounds of the bill not being far-reaching enough (it should, for
example, also ban kitchen knives -- another ingredient to violent crime if
there ever was one) or various technicalities of no real consequence (like
whether dancing counts as a sport where swords should still be allowed, or
not).

Anyway, never mind swords for the moment, but is HM Government really planning
to outlaw sticks? Any sticks at all? Exactly what must a stick look like
and/or be made of to perhaps still be permissible? What about canes or
crutches? Broom handles? Tent poles? Fence posts? Railway ties? Toothpicks?
Cheese straws?

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Stop trying to protect me from myself. [...] Plastic knives are for picnics.
Surgery and the like require scalpels. -- Eric Herrmann

No more sword dances?

Message 52618 · James Mungall · 3 Jun 2008 00:16:07 · Top

This is rather ridiculous--but it is the way government works. I suppose all heavy blunt objects should be banned while we're at it. I've never heard of a highland dancer going ballistic with a sword after poor marks. I have heard of "kilt divers" however during Mardi Gras parades who will often attempt to swipe sgian dubhs from pipers' kilt hose--know someone who had their hand sliced open that way. It's the little blades that are the real danger, not big swords--they've been watching too much "Highlander."

Thanks for giving me another reason why I'm grateful to live this side of the pond. No offense intended.

James Mungall
Baton Rouge, LA, USA

--- On Mon, 6/2/08, Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:

> From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
> Subject: Re: No more sword dances?
> To: "SCD news and discussion" <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Date: Monday, June 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
> Fiona Grant wrote:
>
> > Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
> > mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion
> when such swords have
> > been used in violent crime.
>
> This misses the point somewhat, I think. The point is not
> »doing something
> about the vast numbers of murders etc. being committed
> using highland
> dancers' (dull) swords«. The point, on the
> politicians' part, »is being
> perceived to do something dramatic for the public good«,
> even if the public
> good doesn't really care one way or the other.
> Fortunately (from the point of
> view of the proposing party), nobody can really be against
> the new law in
> principle as that would be tantamount to condoning »sword
> crime«. Any
> objections on the part of the parliamentary opposition
> would have to be on
> the grounds of the bill not being far-reaching enough (it
> should, for
> example, also ban kitchen knives -- another ingredient to
> violent crime if
> there ever was one) or various technicalities of no real
> consequence (like
> whether dancing counts as a sport where swords should still
> be allowed, or
> not).
>
> Anyway, never mind swords for the moment, but is HM
> Government really planning
> to outlaw sticks? Any sticks at all? Exactly what must a
> stick look like
> and/or be made of to perhaps still be permissible? What
> about canes or
> crutches? Broom handles? Tent poles? Fence posts? Railway
> ties? Toothpicks?
> Cheese straws?
>
> Anselm
> --
> Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany .....................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> Stop trying to protect me from myself. [...] Plastic knives
> are for picnics.
> Surgery and the like require scalpels.
> -- Eric Herrmann

No more sword dances?

Message 52619 · Thomas G. Mungall, III · 3 Jun 2008 00:21:22 · Top

Like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick?
or
How to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana. :-)

Somehow the crossed bananas dance just doesn't cut it.

Tom Mungall
Baton Rouge, La, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...
Anyway, never mind swords for the moment, but is HM Government really
planning
to outlaw sticks? Any sticks at all? Exactly what must a stick look like
and/or be made of to perhaps still be permissible? What about canes or
crutches? Broom handles? Tent poles? Fence posts? Railway ties? Toothpicks?
Cheese straws?

Anselm

No more sword dances?

Message 52621 · Heather Clayton · 3 Jun 2008 00:53:06 · Top

How utterly ridiculous! It's really just a control issue. In Canada, though there is much discussion about weapons bans, cultural activities are very important. Of course, Scottish culture is never appreciated quite enough...

And in the end, we have to realize that people kill people; weapons don't kill people, any more than a spoon made King Henry VIII fat.

Heather

No more sword dances?

Message 52622 · Anselm Lingnau · 3 Jun 2008 01:33:51 · Top

Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:

> Somehow the crossed bananas dance just doesn't cut it.

That reminds me of the story when a team from, I think, New Scotland went to
France and used a pair of the local »baguettes« for the Breadsword Dance.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Java taught the world that you can sell literal piles of feces to Fortune 500
companies if you wrap the package up in enough buzzwords. -- James Bennett

No more sword dances?

Message 52645 · John Chambers · 3 Jun 2008 13:55:30 · Top

Anselm wrote:
| Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:
| > Somehow the crossed bananas dance just doesn't cut it.
|
| That reminds me of the story when a team from, I think, New Scotland went to
| France and used a pair of the local =BBbaguettes=AB for the Breadsword Dance.

For some years, I've been playing for a Rapper team that has a bit of
humor that they do for gatherings of Morris/Sword dancers. When it's
their turn, they rush on all in a panic because they can't find their
swords. After the usual chaotic everyone-talk-at-once bit, they get
an idea, and borrow hankies from onlookers. I start playing the
Winster Processional, they process on, I switch to the same tune in
fast jig time, and they start doing Rapper their dance the hankies as
swords. It's pretty funny. Finally, they make a "knot", one guy holds
it up and looks disgustedly at the tangled mess of cloth, and someone
rushes out with the swords. We don't do this dance for general
audiences, as it wouldn't mean much to non-dancers, but Morris
dancers often request the dance.

I do wonder whether the Rapper swords would qualify for the purpose
of the proposed law. These are "swords" only in the sense that they
are thin steel blades. It's actually spring steel, of course, and
these swords have never been weapons. They were developed as scraping
and shaping tools around 1800, when flexible steel was developed.
I've used some very similar tools for smoothing curved surfaces of
furniture and boats. It would be difficult to inflict any serious
injuries on anyone with one of these swords, though you could make a
sort of "road burn". The dancers do occasionally get small scrapes or
even cuts.

But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban
dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes. I've had
this image of terrorists breaking into the cabin and forcibly giving
the pilot a manicure, which brings the plane down when the pilot is
unable to reach the controls due to the terrorists' work on an
especially difficult cuticle problem. If Monty Python were still on
the job, I supposed they'd have done a skit like this.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

No more sword dances?

Message 52646 · Cord Walter · 3 Jun 2008 16:22:08 · Top

John Chambers wrote:
<snip>
> But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban
> dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes.

or giant cartoon robots on t-shirts:
http://gizmodo.com/394544/optimus-prime-t+shirt-transforms-into-arrest-threat-at-airport

This isn't even paranoia anymore, I think we have arrived at idiocy...

-cord
--
Cord Walter
email: cord.walter@gmx.de
Public PGP-Key available on request

Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe:
http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.truecrypt.org/

No more sword dances?

Message 52648 · John Chambers · 3 Jun 2008 14:27:05 · Top

Pia commented:
| Well it matters in a legal argument - up here in Scotland I would argue tha=
| t it is a human right to be allowed to execute an ethnic and indigenous tra=
| dition without dilution - the same argument cannot be used in the rest of U=
| K (well for Morris dancers it could) - so one would have to find another ar=
| gument for participants of a foreign art form there.

Actually, the familiar Scottish sword dance, and also the longsword/Rapper
type sword dance, are really just part of a tradition that was once common
all over Europe, and still exists in lots of areas. I recently got a
notice of another Sword Spectacular event this summer, in Whitby. I was at
the one in 2004, also in Whitby, and they had European teams from as far
away as Italy (plus a few American teams). It's interesting to see the
similarities and differences that developed in various areas. It's fairly
obvious that they are all variants of the same ideas, probably because
people see each others' dances and steal ideas. This has been going on
probably since swords were invented, and there's really no way to trace
the history of it all.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

No more sword dances?

Message 52650 · Pia Walker · 3 Jun 2008 16:37:55 · Top

Well boys will be boys, wherever they are - it's logic - If you have won -
you jump up and down, flinging your arms above your head - if you have a
sword you must jump over and/or across it:>) It doesn't really matter who
started it or not - it is making the traditions live on that is the
important thing.

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org
[mailto:strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org]On Behalf Of John
Chambers
Sent: 03 June 2008 14:27
To: strathspey@strathspey.org; SCD news and discussion
Subject: Re: No more sword dances?

Pia commented:
| Well it matters in a legal argument - up here in Scotland I would argue
tha=
| t it is a human right to be allowed to execute an ethnic and indigenous
tra=
| dition without dilution - the same argument cannot be used in the rest of
U=
| K (well for Morris dancers it could) - so one would have to find another
ar=
| gument for participants of a foreign art form there.

Actually, the familiar Scottish sword dance, and also the longsword/Rapper
type sword dance, are really just part of a tradition that was once common
all over Europe, and still exists in lots of areas. I recently got a
notice of another Sword Spectacular event this summer, in Whitby. I was at
the one in 2004, also in Whitby, and they had European teams from as far
away as Italy (plus a few American teams). It's interesting to see the
similarities and differences that developed in various areas. It's fairly
obvious that they are all variants of the same ideas, probably because
people see each others' dances and steal ideas. This has been going on
probably since swords were invented, and there's really no way to trace
the history of it all.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

No more sword dances?

Message 52651 · John Chambers · 3 Jun 2008 15:08:09 · Top

Cord Walter wrote:
| John Chambers wrote:
| <snip>
| > But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban
| > dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes.
|
| or giant cartoon robots on t-shirts:
| http://gizmodo.com/394544/optimus-prime-t+shirt-transforms-into-arrest-threat-at-airport
|
| This isn't even paranoia anymore, I think we have arrived at idiocy...

Yeah; here in the Boston area we got a lot of laughs from that one.

Actually, the security folks have a phrase for it. They call it
Security Theater (or Theatre in the UK ;-). This refers to fake
security measures with the purpose of impressing the general
population that Something Is Being Done, while not providing any
actual effective security.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

No more sword dances?

Message 52655 · Lara Friedman-Shedlov · 3 Jun 2008 19:01:48 · Top

Yes! This is why my rapper sword team decided at the outset, only half
jokingly, to always refer to the "swords" as "flexible metal dance
implements" or FMDIs.

:-)

Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:08 PM, John Chambers <jc@trillian.mit.edu> wrote:

> Cord Walter wrote:
> | John Chambers wrote:
> | <snip>
> | > But we're living in an age when the airline security folks ban
> | > dangerous weapons like nail clippers and toothpaste tubes.
> |
> | or giant cartoon robots on t-shirts:
> |
> http://gizmodo.com/394544/optimus-prime-t+shirt-transforms-into-arrest-threat-at-airport
> |
> | This isn't even paranoia anymore, I think we have arrived at idiocy...
>
> Yeah; here in the Boston area we got a lot of laughs from that one.
>
> Actually, the security folks have a phrase for it. They call it
> Security Theater (or Theatre in the UK ;-). This refers to fake
> security measures with the purpose of impressing the general
> population that Something Is Being Done, while not providing any
> actual effective security.
>
>
> --
> What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
>

--
*****************************
Lara Friedman~Shedlov
lfriedmanshedlov@gmail.com

*****************************

No more sword dances?

Message 52629 · Andrew C Aitchison · 3 Jun 2008 08:34:27 · Top

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Anselm Lingnau wrote:

> Fiona Grant wrote:
>
>> Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
>> mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
>> been used in violent crime.
>
> This misses the point somewhat, I think. The point is not "doing something
> about the vast numbers of murders etc. being committed using highland
> dancers' (dull) swords". The point, on the politicians' part, is "being
> perceived to do something dramatic for the public good", even if the public
> good doesn't really care one way or the other.

The proposed ban has exemptions under two categories: "HEALTH/FITNESS/SPORT"
and "HISTORICAL PRESERVATION" but dancing doesn't appear under either
category. The petition isn't to block the bill but to add dance to the
existing list of exemptions.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Cambridge, UK

No more sword dances?

Message 52630 · Anselm Lingnau · 3 Jun 2008 09:48:23 · Top

Andrew C Aitchison wrote:

> The proposed ban has exemptions under two categories:
> "HEALTH/FITNESS/SPORT" and "HISTORICAL PRESERVATION" but dancing doesn't
> appear under either category. The petition isn't to block the bill but to
> add dance to the existing list of exemptions.

Makes sense to me (»If you can't beat 'em, join 'em«). Somebody should show
the MPs a video of a bunch of little girls doing the Ghillie Callum at the
highland games. If that isn't »health/fitness/sport« then what is? -- and
crime statistics ought to show that they're unlikely to go off with their
swords afterwards and hold up a candy shop.

I still think they should also ban kitchen knives. There must be at least a
hundred kitchen knife assaults to every sword assault in the UK -- for the
last century or so --, so if they're really serious about violent crime that
should make a much bigger difference.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
This young lady has delusions of adequacy.
-- From a British military officer fitness report

No more sword dances?

Message 52631 · Pia Walker · 3 Jun 2008 09:55:24 · Top

Good discussion, but does this law cover Scotland? Or just England and Wales ?

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org [mailto:strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org]On Behalf Of Anselm Lingnau
Sent: 03 June 2008 08:48
To: SCD news and discussion
Subject: Re: No more sword dances?

Andrew C Aitchison wrote:

> The proposed ban has exemptions under two categories:
> "HEALTH/FITNESS/SPORT" and "HISTORICAL PRESERVATION" but dancing doesn't
> appear under either category. The petition isn't to block the bill but to
> add dance to the existing list of exemptions.

Makes sense to me ("If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"). Somebody should show
the MPs a video of a bunch of little girls doing the Ghillie Callum at the
highland games. If that isn't "health/fitness/sport" then what is? -- and
crime statistics ought to show that they're unlikely to go off with their
swords afterwards and hold up a candy shop.

I still think they should also ban kitchen knives. There must be at least a
hundred kitchen knife assaults to every sword assault in the UK -- for the
last century or so --, so if they're really serious about violent crime that
should make a much bigger difference.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
This young lady has delusions of adequacy.
-- From a British military officer fitness report

No more sword dances?

Message 52632 · Sophie Rickebusch · 3 Jun 2008 10:53:02 · Top

----- "Anselm Lingnau" <anselm@strathspey.org> wrote:

> Stop trying to protect me from myself. [...] Plastic knives are for
> picnics.
> Surgery and the like require scalpels. -- Eric
> Herrmann

Another spookily relevant quote from Anselm's automatic quote-generator!

Sophie

--
Sophie Rickebusch
Edinburgh, UK

No more sword dances?

Message 52617 · Bruce Herbold · 3 Jun 2008 00:10:46 · Top

Oh how delightful to hear of silly political posturing from other
countries! I thought we had cornered the market.

Bruce Herbold
USA

On 6/2/08, Fiona Grant <fiona@freespiritfilms.co.uk> wrote:
> Hello to all, but especially British citizens,
>
> The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways,
> but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be
> banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have
> been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of
> the dance.
>
> Currently, the government does not recognize dance as either a Historical
> re-enactment or sporting activity and therefore dancers are not included
> within the exemption for the purchase and use of swords with regards to the
> VCR bill. These dances are forms of art that are of great historical and
> cultural relevance. Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
> mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
> been used in violent crime.
>
> If you are resident in the UK, please have a look at this petition to the
> Prime Minister on the Downing Street website.
>
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers
>
> Highland dances just will not look the same without swords, and where will
> the Morris men be without their sticks to whack. If Gordon Brown owns up to
> his Scottish heritage, we might hope he won't deprive us of using real
> swords to dance over, but I would not put money on it. Please sign the
> petition if you are a British resident, or an ex-pat in an overseas
> territory. And please pass on the news to any members of your dance groups.
>
> On with the dance,
> Fiona
> Bristol
> UK
>
>
>
>
>

No more sword dances?

Message 52628 · Andrew Smith · 3 Jun 2008 07:23:15 · Top

I believe that Sikhs use swords as part of their ceremonial/ritual
practices.
It will be interesting to see how they are treated.
The Scots may eventually be able to claim racial discrimination.
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fiona Grant" <fiona@freespiritfilms.co.uk>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: No more sword dances?

Hello to all, but especially British citizens,

The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways,
but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be
banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have
been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of
the dance.

Currently, the government does not recognize dance as either a Historical
re-enactment or sporting activity and therefore dancers are not included
within the exemption for the purchase and use of swords with regards to the
VCR bill. These dances are forms of art that are of great historical and
cultural relevance. Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
been used in violent crime.

If you are resident in the UK, please have a look at this petition to the
Prime Minister on the Downing Street website.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers

Highland dances just will not look the same without swords, and where will
the Morris men be without their sticks to whack. If Gordon Brown owns up to
his Scottish heritage, we might hope he won't deprive us of using real
swords to dance over, but I would not put money on it. Please sign the
petition if you are a British resident, or an ex-pat in an overseas
territory. And please pass on the news to any members of your dance groups.

On with the dance,
Fiona
Bristol
UK

No more sword dances?

Message 52662 · Thomas G. Mungall, III · 3 Jun 2008 23:12:05 · Top

Sikhs also tuck special swords, which are really knives (Sikhs call it the
Kirpan) into their turbans. The blades range from 6" to 9" in length.

Tom Mungall
Baton Rouge, La, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Smith" <afsmith@talktalk.net>

> I believe that Sikhs use swords as part of their ceremonial/ritual
> practices.
> It will be interesting to see how they are treated.
> The Scots may eventually be able to claim racial discrimination.
> Andrew Smith,
> Bristol, UK.

No more sword dances?

Message 52664 · 3_brandywine@tiscali.co.uk · 3 Jun 2008 23:27:07 · Top

Fascinating - I tried to add my name to the petition but it would not
accept that my e-mail address was valid. I've only had that happen
once before - when I tried to use the Leeds Branch shop. Am I the only
person who has a numeral as the first character of the e-mail address
??

Ian McDonald

____________________________________________________

Guard your email - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail/
____________________________________________________

No more sword dances?

Message 52668 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 4 Jun 2008 00:23:58 · Top

Thanks Graham, as mentioned in my post, this thread seems to have been
based on a misinterpretation of the actual situation, as Briggs and I
suspected. As there are exemptions, I am sure that the controlled
public display of swords for sword dancing is not endangered, nor is it
illegal to borrow someone else´s to practice. It is probably a good
thing to have some oversight reminders from an insurance company. I
myself have seen young kids playing Errol Flynn with swords between
competitions, at games, so someone besides a passive parent should have
some valid reason to encourage safety.

As with many laws, I suspect that this will not be aggressively
enforced, but should the local authorities see a potential problem it
is probably a good law to fall back on. Sort of the equivalent of the
fact that most traffic authorities are not particularly bothered if you
are exceeding the speed limit by less then 5mph in optimum conditions,
but rather quick to enforce the letter of the law when visibility is
zero.

No more sword dances?

Message 52671 · S. Keith Graham · 4 Jun 2008 01:16:15 · Top

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 6:23 PM, GOSS9@telefonica.net <GOSS9@telefonica.net>
wrote:

> Thanks Graham, as mentioned in my post, this thread seems to have been
> based on a misinterpretation of the actual situation, as Briggs and I
> suspected. As there are exemptions, I am sure that the controlled
> public display of swords for sword dancing is not endangered, nor is it
> illegal to borrow someone else´s to practice.

The biggest problem is that it is now illegal to import or sell the items
described, which covers the scimitars usually used for belly dancing.

And the authorities have not been willing to include dance as an accepted
exemption (even when asked specifically), so retailers can be prosecuted if
they sell a belly-dance scimitar to someone for dancing. And in no case can
the Scimitars be listed for anonymous sale, such as on ebay.

So the problem isn't carrying or dancing with them per se, but being able to
acquire them in the future at all. And the retailers, who are the ones who
could go to jail or be fined, are the people who won't stock them if they
can't legally be made, imported, or sold.

And they're considering extended it to all straight bladed weapons over 50cm
this fall according to the AKCT (Association of Knife Collectors and
Traders) article.

Keith Graham
skg@sadr.com

No more sword dances?

Message 52672 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 4 Jun 2008 01:32:54 · Top

To Graham´s response to me. Not sure how the process works in the U.K.
so I will use a Calfornia model.

There, a act is passed and signed into law. The problem comes in the
next step when the administrative code is written, which determines how
the law is actually applied. So if this was California, the problem is
not the law but the admin code, which is fairly simple to change if it
seems as stupid as this case. If stage is an existing exception, it is
probably an oversight that this does not include dance. It would not
take the supreme court to seek remedy, only one judge to hear an
appleal for exception. If the appeal was well prepared and the judge in
question intelligent in the wording of his ruling, I doubt if the
state´s attourney´s would fight it, and this would sort of set a
precident, so that related cases would easily get the same exception.

No more sword dances?

Message 52683 · Dick&Maureen Daniel · 4 Jun 2008 21:59:46 · Top

> From: GOSS9@telefonica.net> Subject: Re: No more sword dances?> > To Graham´s response to me. Not sure how the process works in the U.K. > so I will use a Calfornia model.> > There, a act is passed and signed into law. The problem comes in the > next step when the administrative code is written, which determines how > the law is actually applied. So if this was California, the problem is > not the law but the admin code, which is fairly simple to change if it > seems as stupid as this case. If stage is an existing exception, it is > probably an oversight that this does not include dance. It would not > take the supreme court to seek remedy, only one judge to hear an > appleal for exception. If the appeal was well prepared and the judge in > question intelligent in the wording of his ruling, I doubt if the > state´s attourney´s would fight it, and this would sort of set a > precident, so that related cases would easily get the same exception. > > By Dick Daniel,
Very interesting. The point is that knives are a real problem in the UK [mostly accepted as ex-kitchen items] and the UK government rightly wishes to do something about it. I think the reason it has such a relatively high prominence is because guns are generally unavailable to the public here, so knives/blades become the major weapon of serious aggression. This does not apply to much of the rest of the world, so their problems are primarily with guns.
Can you do a Sword Dance without keen edged swords? Yes, you can do the steps, but the whole point of the dance was to demonstrate skill in not cutting your feet, so it becomes like a high wire artiste doing their act with a harness, so they can't come to any harm if they slip [Yawn].
I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An extremely skillful competitive form of dance, not designed for spectator entertainment.
Of course, it's not the weapon that is really at fault, it's the user, so the real answer is to crack down hard on abuse of ownership. Problem is how???


_________________________________________________________________

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No more sword dances?

Message 52687 · Agnes MacMichael · 4 Jun 2008 23:40:34 · Top

Hi all
I think highland dancing is very entertaining. I don't particularly like
the competitive side of it. I have seen and heard some of the tantrums -
and that is just the mothers - but the children themselves get so hyped up
that they are positively manic.
My two grand children did highland - and other types of dance - in a dance
school - they went in for the exams to prove their skill, but they never did
any competitive dancing - i.e. at Highland Games etc. I would not encourage
them to go into the competitions and they did not want to either. They did
the dancing for enjoyment.
My oldest grand daughter has travelled overseas with a group I am involved
in doing her highland dancing. She concentrated on the Highland Fling and
the Sword Dance. Her favourite was the Sword dance. My husband made a
special case for her sword to travel in and we never had any problems taking
it with us. It was declared and put with 'special items' or 'fragile
items'. The audiences and cultures we performed for really enjoyed her
dancing and she has even had a standing ovation and given a special gift
from a mayor of one of the villages we performed in.
The dance teacher has to order these swords from India.
My point in this is that I don't understand how it is not entertaining.
Agnes Macmichael
West Lothian, Scotland

On 04/06/2008, Dick Daniel <danddzines@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > From: GOSS9@telefonica.net> Subject: Re: No more sword dances?> > To
> Graham´s response to me. Not sure how the process works in the U.K. > so I
> will use a Calfornia model.> > There, a act is passed and signed into law.
> The problem comes in the > next step when the administrative code is
> written, which determines how > the law is actually applied. So if this was
> California, the problem is > not the law but the admin code, which is fairly
> simple to change if it > seems as stupid as this case. If stage is an
> existing exception, it is > probably an oversight that this does not include
> dance. It would not > take the supreme court to seek remedy, only one judge
> to hear an > appleal for exception. If the appeal was well prepared and the
> judge in > question intelligent in the wording of his ruling, I doubt if the
> > state´s attourney´s would fight it, and this would sort of set a >
> precident, so that related cases would easily get the same exception. > > By
> Dick Daniel,
> Very interesting. The point is that knives are a real problem in the UK
> [mostly accepted as ex-kitchen items] and the UK government rightly wishes
> to do something about it. I think the reason it has such a relatively high
> prominence is because guns are generally unavailable to the public here, so
> knives/blades become the major weapon of serious aggression. This does not
> apply to much of the rest of the world, so their problems are primarily with
> guns.
> Can you do a Sword Dance without keen edged swords? Yes, you can do the
> steps, but the whole point of the dance was to demonstrate skill in not
> cutting your feet, so it becomes like a high wire artiste doing their act
> with a harness, so they can't come to any harm if they slip [Yawn].
> I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An extremely skillful
> competitive form of dance, not designed for spectator entertainment.
> Of course, it's not the weapon that is really at fault, it's the user, so
> the real answer is to crack down hard on abuse of ownership. Problem is
> how???
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000007ukm/direct/01/

No more sword dances?

Message 52692 · Jan Rudge · 5 Jun 2008 05:14:49 · Top

> I think highland dancing is very entertaining. I don't particularly like> the competitive side of it. I have seen and heard some of the tantrums -> and that is just the mothers

Hey, be careful Agnes... There are "highland mums" here on the Strathspey List, you know!

;o))

Jan

Beaconsfield, UK
_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000009ukm/direct/01/

No more sword dances?

Message 52693 · Andrew Smith · 5 Jun 2008 07:40:16 · Top

In my [admittedly limited ] experience, Agnes is absolutely right. I was
dancing in Bath and decided to enter the 'National' dance class at the
Bristol Eisteddfod. I was 16 and so was competing in the '16years and over'
class with about 8 lassies from Bristol dancing schools.When I was declared
the winner, the atmosphere from the mums was absolutely poisonous. This was
repeated when I again won the following year, so I decided to stop before I
was 'kneecapped' or worse. I think that there were two problems: 1) I was an
outsider, and 2) they had probably been competing against each other from a
tender age in the several dance classes, and had established a pecking order
as to who would probably win which class, and I upset that.
Not on one of those occasions, but at the end of my very first demonstration
of solo swords, I clipped the hilt as I was backstepping out and the point
came up to about 45 degrees before gravity asserted itself. A frisson
certainly went through the audience - while the edge was not particularly
sharp, the point certainly was. This links with Pia's comments of "a bit of
Wow." and " but phew they didn't."
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Rudge" <jan.rudge@hotmail.co.uk>
To: "SCD news and discussion" <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:14 AM
Subject: RE: No more sword dances?

> I think highland dancing is very entertaining. I don't particularly like>
> the competitive side of it. I have seen and heard some of the tantrums ->
> and that is just the mothers

Hey, be careful Agnes... There are "highland mums" here on the Strathspey
List, you know!

;o))

Jan

Beaconsfield, UK
_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000009ukm/direct/01/

No more sword dances?

Message 52695 · Anselm Lingnau · 5 Jun 2008 08:17:23 · Top

Andrew Smith wrote:

> Not on one of those occasions, but at the end of my very first
> demonstration of solo swords, I clipped the hilt as I was backstepping out
> and the point came up to about 45 degrees before gravity asserted itself. A
> frisson certainly went through the audience - while the edge was not
> particularly sharp, the point certainly was.

I wouldn't want to show my face (let alone legs) on stage at a highland dance
competition but I've done my share of sword dancing. In my experience, what
happens is that you either kick the swords out of kilter or else step down on
the flat of a sword from above, neither of which have much potential for
serious injury beyond that inherent in Highland dancing (without swords) to
begin with. The most dangerous bit, as Andrew describes, is probably the
hilt.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Friedberg, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
A vibration is a motion that cannot make up its mind which way it wants to go.
-- Junior high school science essay

No more sword dances?

Message 52696 · Pia Walker · 5 Jun 2008 10:08:47 · Top

Happens in ball room dance too - my mother was asked to withdraw me and my
partner from a competition because we were sure to win :>)
Mums eh!!!!!

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org
[mailto:strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org]On Behalf Of
Andrew Smith
Sent: 05 June 2008 06:40
To: SCD news and discussion
Subject: Re: No more sword dances?

In my [admittedly limited ] experience, Agnes is absolutely right. I was
dancing in Bath and decided to enter the 'National' dance class at the
Bristol Eisteddfod. I was 16 and so was competing in the '16years and over'
class with about 8 lassies from Bristol dancing schools.When I was declared
the winner, the atmosphere from the mums was absolutely poisonous. This was
repeated when I again won the following year, so I decided to stop before I
was 'kneecapped' or worse. I think that there were two problems: 1) I was an
outsider, and 2) they had probably been competing against each other from a
tender age in the several dance classes, and had established a pecking order
as to who would probably win which class, and I upset that.
Not on one of those occasions, but at the end of my very first demonstration
of solo swords, I clipped the hilt as I was backstepping out and the point
came up to about 45 degrees before gravity asserted itself. A frisson
certainly went through the audience - while the edge was not particularly
sharp, the point certainly was. This links with Pia's comments of "a bit of
Wow." and " but phew they didn't."
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Rudge" <jan.rudge@hotmail.co.uk>
To: "SCD news and discussion" <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:14 AM
Subject: RE: No more sword dances?

> I think highland dancing is very entertaining. I don't particularly like>
> the competitive side of it. I have seen and heard some of the tantrums ->
> and that is just the mothers

Hey, be careful Agnes... There are "highland mums" here on the Strathspey
List, you know!

;o))

Jan

Beaconsfield, UK
_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000009ukm/direct/01/

No more sword dances?

Message 52697 · Ian Brockbank · 5 Jun 2008 10:11:25 · Top

Hi Dick,

> I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An
> extremely skillful competitive form of dance, not designed
> for spectator entertainment.

I have never danced competitively, but whenever we include a bit of
Highland in a performance (in particular a sword dance) it always gets a
VERY good reception. It's different, it's showy, it's got the bagpipes.

I recently performed the sword dance at my daughter's school (they had a
week of celebrating diversity, and the teacher in charge of the week
dances in the same SCD class as me and managed to twist my arm so that
they could celebrate the local culture as well), and the kids were
delighted. They were particularly interested in the prop (which had an
edge that had never been sharpened). My daughter was later sent home
with a thank you card which included a couple of portraits of me by
pupils.

So, competitive Highland I cannot speak about, but my experience is that
audiences always like a bit of Highland in a dem.

Cheers,

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
ian@scottishdance.net
http://www.scottishdance.net/

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No more sword dances?

Message 52699 · Bob McArthur · 5 Jun 2008 10:47:13 · Top

What concerns me most is how possession of a sword for artistic or traditional reasons may/can be interpreted by the local law enforcement authorities.

Last year a group of our club members performed a Guard of Honour at the wedding of a members daughter much to the delight of the wedding party and other guests. This was outside the church in the centre of town.

It would appear that we could have run into problems under the 2006 legislation dependent on how this occasion was regarded by a local beat officer and how 'difficult' that officer decided to be on the day.

Just yesterday the front page of our local paper was devoted to the case of someone getting a two year custodial sentence for supposedly innocently hanging a shotgun (sawn off!!!) as a wall ornament and with no ammunition available in the premises.

Not the best place to secure a firearm, legally held or not but how many buildings with public access do the same with firearms as museum display items and how many swords are hung on display?

Innocent action or not? Who Knows?

It does concern me that there is too much ambiguity about the current legislation in England and Wales and it is important that this is clarified properly to safeguard the innocent participant from over-zealous law enforcement bodies.


Bob McArthur
Bournemouth, UK



> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:11:25 +0100> From: Ian.Brockbank@wolfsonmicro.com> To: strathspey@strathspey.org> Subject: RE: No more sword dances?> > Hi Dick,> > > I view Sword Dancing like other Highland Dancing.... An > > extremely skillful competitive form of dance, not designed > > for spectator entertainment. > > I have never danced competitively, but whenever we include a bit of> Highland in a performance (in particular a sword dance) it always gets a> VERY good reception. It's different, it's showy, it's got the bagpipes.> > I recently performed the sword dance at my daughter's school (they had a> week of celebrating diversity, and the teacher in charge of the week> dances in the same SCD class as me and managed to twist my arm so that> they could celebrate the local culture as well), and the kids were> delighted. They were particularly interested in the prop (which had an> edge that had never been sharpened). My daughter was later sent home> with a thank you card which included a couple of portraits of me by> pupils.> > So, competitive Highland I cannot speak about, but my experience is that> audiences always like a bit of Highland in a dem.> > Cheers,> > Ian Brockbank> Edinburgh, Scotland> ian@scottishdance.net> http://www.scottishdance.net/> > > > Privacy & Confidentiality Notice> -------------------------------------------------> This message and any attachments contain privileged and confidential information that is intended solely for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient you must not: read; copy; distribute; discuss; take any action in or make any reliance upon the contents of this message; nor open or read any attachment. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible on the following telephone number and destroy this message including any attachments. Thank you.> -------------------------------------------------> Wolfson Microelectronics plc> Tel: +44 (0)131 272 7000> Fax: +44 (0)131 272 7001> Web: www.wolfsonmicro.com> > Registered in Scotland> > Company number SC089839> > Registered office: > > Westfield House, 26 Westfield Road, Edinburgh, EH11 2QB, UK>
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No more sword dances?

Message 52701 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 5 Jun 2008 12:24:28 · Top

Here in Spain that type of cutthroat competition is pretty much
associated only with football. Not to the extent of the Texas
cheerleader mom who hired a hit man to attack the mother of her
daughter´s closest competitor a few years back.

Recently, I saw the opposite. We had an all day basket ball
tournament, teams from all over the island kids 14 and under. One team
from a distant village was really pathetic. was losing each game.
Imagine getting up at 06:00 taking a bus in the dark for an all day
event, and going home that night in the dark, cold and sweaty, and
losing every event. Their last game was around 18:00, and they were
losing about 52 to 0. The other coach on an ego trip, kept his first
string in running up the score, where most coaches would pull the first
string, to give his poorer players more game time. Smart anyway because
it would give the team more depth for injuries and the next season. At
some point, parents from his own team started booing their own baskets,
pretty soon the entre gym was booing him. I suppose he found out later,
but the look on his face at the time indicated that he had no clue as
to the message.

No more sword dances?

Message 52703 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 5 Jun 2008 12:30:15 · Top

In my experience, I have never seen an injury caused by a cut, but by
broken bones caused by landing on some part of the sword and turning
one´s ankle

No more sword dances?

Message 52704 · GOSS9@telefonica.net · 5 Jun 2008 12:34:46 · Top

Pia, have you ever seen the film "strictly dancing" - Cinderella story
about the behind the scenes at a ballroom dance studio. Predictable
plot, but enjoyable because of my SCD and highland experience. The
protagonist is the young girl who starts out looking like a loser with
bad hair, dumpy clothes, and thick glasses. She works as a janitor to
pay for her lessons, and has a crush on the son of the owner of the
studio, who is already a star. You know the rest.

No more sword dances?

Message 52705 · Pia Walker · 5 Jun 2008 12:45:58 · Top

Of course I have !!!!! - bad hair, dumpy clothes and thick glasses - that's me - working as a janitor - No building would stand for that - and my dance instructor had daughters. I also blotted my copy book by saying no to the first boy who asked me to dance with him - because I wanted to dance with a girl :>) the boys line up there - girls line up here then 'right boys - go for it'. I thought my mother would kill me :>) After 14 years of competitive dancing, I much prefer SCD.

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org [mailto:strathspey-bounces-pia=intamail.com@strathspey.org]On Behalf Of GOSS9@telefonica.net
Sent: 05 June 2008 11:35
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: RE: No more sword dances?

Pia, have you ever seen the film "strictly dancing" - Cinderella story
about the behind the scenes at a ballroom dance studio. Predictable
plot, but enjoyable because of my SCD and highland experience. The
protagonist is the young girl who starts out looking like a loser with
bad hair, dumpy clothes, and thick glasses. She works as a janitor to
pay for her lessons, and has a crush on the son of the owner of the
studio, who is already a star. You know the rest.

No more sword dances?

Message 52719 · John Chambers · 5 Jun 2008 13:25:56 · Top

| Happens in ball room dance too - my mother was asked to withdraw me and my
| partner from a competition because we were sure to win :>)
| Mums eh!!!!!
|
| Pia

There is a widespread tradition in both dance and music contests,
that when someone wins too often, you make them a judge. Few people
ever turn down such an honor, and it takes them out of the
competition.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

Strictly Ballroom

Message 52726 · hways · 5 Jun 2008 22:55:44 · Top

I think Goss is referring to "Strictly Ballroom" Highly recommended, if you
like that sort of dancing. But at no time did she look like a loser to me.

Harry Ways

----- Original Message -----
From: <GOSS9@telefonica.net>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:34 AM
Subject: RE: No more sword dances?

> Pia, have you ever seen the film "strictly dancing" - Cinderella story
> about the behind the scenes at a ballroom dance studio. Predictable
> plot, but enjoyable because of my SCD and highland experience. The
> protagonist is the young girl who starts out looking like a loser with
> bad hair, dumpy clothes, and thick glasses. She works as a janitor to
> pay for her lessons, and has a crush on the son of the owner of the
> studio, who is already a star. You know the rest.
>
>
>

No more sword dances?

Message 52691 · John Chambers · 5 Jun 2008 02:30:14 · Top

Dick Daniel wrote:
| Can you do a Sword Dance without keen edged swords? Yes, you can do the st=
| eps, but the whole point of the dance was to demonstrate skill in not cutti=
| ng your feet, so it becomes like a high wire artiste doing their act with a=
| harness, so they can't come to any harm if they slip [Yawn].=20=20

Hmmm ... In my experience (mostly in North America, with a few trips
to the UK) the swords used by dancers have never been sharp. In fact,
if you get close enough to see them clearly, you'll usually see all
sorts of nicks in the edge. Some dancers do like to keep the swords
polished and shiny, since they're for show, but they're more likely
to dull the edge than sharpen it. The audiences know it's a show,
after all, and nobody sensible expects the dancers to endanger
themselves, aside from a few bruises now and then.

It is common for teachers to warn newcomers to sword dancing that the
swords may not be sharp, but they are hard steel, and you should
expect a few good bumps and scrapes until you learn to handle them.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

No more sword dances?

Message 52652 · Andrew Smith · 3 Jun 2008 17:11:51 · Top

I suppose we all ought to petition for officers in the armed services to be
deprived of their swords, if we do finish up being ignored. Furthermore
regiments marching through the streets should surely not be allowed to do so
with fixed bayonets?
Where does it stop?
Andrew Smith,
Bristol, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fiona Grant" <fiona@freespiritfilms.co.uk>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: No more sword dances?

Hello to all, but especially British citizens,

The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways,
but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be
banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have
been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of
the dance.

Currently, the government does not recognize dance as either a Historical
re-enactment or sporting activity and therefore dancers are not included
within the exemption for the purchase and use of swords with regards to the
VCR bill. These dances are forms of art that are of great historical and
cultural relevance. Banning the purchase and use of these swords is to my
mind completely ridiculous, as I know of no occasion when such swords have
been used in violent crime.

If you are resident in the UK, please have a look at this petition to the
Prime Minister on the Downing Street website.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers

Highland dances just will not look the same without swords, and where will
the Morris men be without their sticks to whack. If Gordon Brown owns up to
his Scottish heritage, we might hope he won't deprive us of using real
swords to dance over, but I would not put money on it. Please sign the
petition if you are a British resident, or an ex-pat in an overseas
territory. And please pass on the news to any members of your dance groups.

On with the dance,
Fiona
Bristol
UK

No more sword dances?

Message 52653 · Mike Briggs · 3 Jun 2008 18:33:00 · Top

Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory
research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any
"proposed" UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of
any such proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords. If
there are any criminal solicitors or advocates (lovely phrase) on
Strathspey, would one of them tell me where I might find the text of the
proposed bill? Or, if anyone else has detailed knowledge, please
contact me. Just curious.

Mike

--
BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
Michael and Norma Briggs
1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
+1 608 835 0914
www.briggslawoffice.com

No more sword dances?

Message 52657 · suepetyt · 3 Jun 2008 19:30:30 · Top

Try

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/010/2006010.htm

Happy Dancing
Sue Petyt
Skype - spetyt
www.suepetyt.me.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: strathspey-bounces-sue=suepetyt.me.uk@strathspey.org
[mailto:strathspey-bounces-sue=suepetyt.me.uk@strathspey.org] On Behalf Of
Norma and Mike Briggs
Sent: 03 June 2008 17:33
To: SCD news and discussion
Subject: Re: No more sword dances?

Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory
research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any
"proposed" UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of
any such proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords. If
there are any criminal solicitors or advocates (lovely phrase) on
Strathspey, would one of them tell me where I might find the text of the
proposed bill? Or, if anyone else has detailed knowledge, please
contact me. Just curious.

Mike

--
BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
Michael and Norma Briggs
1519 Storytown Road
Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
+1 608 835 0914
www.briggslawoffice.com

No more sword dances?

Message 52658 · mlamontbrown · 3 Jun 2008 20:29:53 · Top

Yes, so it was introduced in 2005 and became law in 2006 --- I think it is a bit late
to worry about it now, especially as it doesn't seem to have had any effect on people
doing sword dancing.

Malcolm

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=btopenworld.com@strathspey.org
> [mailto:strathspey-bounces-mlamontbrown=btopenworld.com@strathspey.org] On Behalf
Of
> Sue Petyt
> Sent: 03 June 2008 18:31
> To: briggslaw@yahoo.com; 'SCD news and discussion'
> Subject: RE: No more sword dances?
>
> Try
>
> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/010/2006010.htm
>
> Happy Dancing
> Sue Petyt
> Skype - spetyt
> www.suepetyt.me.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: strathspey-bounces-sue=suepetyt.me.uk@strathspey.org
> [mailto:strathspey-bounces-sue=suepetyt.me.uk@strathspey.org] On Behalf Of
> Norma and Mike Briggs
> Sent: 03 June 2008 17:33
> To: SCD news and discussion
> Subject: Re: No more sword dances?
>
> Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory
> research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any
> "proposed" UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of
> any such proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords. If
> there are any criminal solicitors or advocates (lovely phrase) on
> Strathspey, would one of them tell me where I might find the text of the
> proposed bill? Or, if anyone else has detailed knowledge, please
> contact me. Just curious.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
> Michael and Norma Briggs
> 1519 Storytown Road
> Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
> +1 608 835 0914
> www.briggslawoffice.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

No more sword dances?

Message 52659 · S. Keith Graham · 3 Jun 2008 22:27:12 · Top

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Norma and Mike Briggs <briggslaw@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Reading this thread, my inner lawyer woke up, and I did a little cursory
> research. I can find nothing -- nada, zilch, rien -- about any "proposed"
> UK Violent Crimes Bill anywhere, let alone any provision of any such
> proposed legislation which would ban the sale of swords.

The new change is:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110810324_en_1

Which adds "curved blades over 50cm"

This currently impacts other traditional dancers, such as belly dancers, who
use curved middle-eastern scimitars as part of their dancing, more than say
Highland dancers who use straight blades.

See also:

http://www.akct.org/page29.html which mentions straight blades might be
included.

The goal here is to get dancing props, carried or to be used by dancers,
added to the specific list of exemptions.

Not that I expect to carry any highland dance swords to GB, N Ireland, or
Wales.

Keith Graham
skg@sadr.com

Learned something

Message 52677 · Cord Walter · 4 Jun 2008 09:14:24 · Top

Fiona Grant wrote:
> Hello to all, but especially British citizens,
>
> The proposed UK Violent Crimes Reduction Bill may be admirable in many ways,
> but as it stands the purchase and use of swords in traditional dances may be
> banned. Such dances in the British Isles since as far back as 1700s have
> been known to use props such as sticks and swords as an essential part of
> the dance.

Since I don't own a sword, I read this thread for purely academic
reasons - until now!

Doing a bit of reading on the proposed amendment of the Criminal Justice
Act of 1988, I looked up the original Act of 1988 and noticed that
carrying my Opinel No.8 [1] in "public place" can lead to a "conviction
to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale", since it has a
cutting edge of 3.35" instead of the accepted max. 3"... Eeep!

Maybe I can stick it in my socks and claim that it is part of a scarcely
known lower-saxonian "national costume", which woul make it OK according
to Article 139 (5) (c)? Or I could reason that I kept it in the pocket
of my trousers - which i surely do not consider a "public place" but
rather private ;)

Phew. Difficult times these are...

-cord

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel_knife
--
Cord Walter
email: cord.walter@gmx.de
Public PGP-Key available on request

Weil es niemanden etwas angeht, dass ich nichts zu verbergen habe:
http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.truecrypt.org/
...und überhaupt: http://www.FreiheitstattAngst.de

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