strathspey Archive: mp3 for music download

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mp3 for music download

Message 46827 · Marie Disiewicz · 17 Nov 2006 12:00:46 · Top

Hi to all
Marie from TACSound here to let everyone know that all backorders are parceled up and will be in the mail today.
Just as the RSCDS Book 27 CD arrived and Reel Friends 3 CD we had a 27 hr power outage due to some very unpleasant weather.
The post office was closed tonight when I went to mail all the parcels so your orders will be on the way to you soon.

I am curious how many of you would like to buy your dance pieces a dance at a time and how many would prefer to have the CD in hand with all the music that the musicians have invested all their talent and money in?

I am curious as to why the musicians have not come up with the idea themselves if this is such a good idea.

How many musicians out there are interested in selling a dance selection one or more at a time instead of or in addition of producing CDs?
Let us know the pros and cons to the modern way for your trade.

Why does the public think it such a good idea?

Does this have the sound of "Oh, would you copy #? for me as I do not want to buy the CD" ???

Please post your answers here or send privately speym@telus.net

I am all for keeping up with modern ways, as long as the musicians are the ones who totally agree with any changes.

I am all for everyone doing what they want when they want and how they want, I am just curious.
Cheers
Marie

mp3 for music download

Message 46828 · Sophie Rickebusch · 17 Nov 2006 12:26:17 · Top

On Ven Nov 17 3:00 , 'Marie Disiewicz' <speym@telus.net> sent:

>I am curious how many of you would like to buy your dance pieces a dance at a time and how many would prefer to have the CD in hand with all the music that the
musicians have invested all their talent and money in?

I'm all for being able to download a piece I need and I don't see why this should be a problem if the money goes to the musicians. Sometimes it's nice to have the whole
CD, but I wouldn't buy a CD if there's just one track on it I want (can't really afford to). Downloading is also faster than ordering CDs by post, so if you're preparing a
class you can get the correct music in time for it (I rarely prepare classes 2 weeks ahead!) The other options are to use a different piece of music (yes, I know this will
probably get me exRSCDSated) or to copy the track from someone else's CD (I try to avoid doing this, but let he/she who has never sinned throw the first stone) - either
way the musicians lose out, whereas if I'd downloaded it they would have at least sold one track, if not the whole CD.

What do the musicians think?

Sophie
--
Sophie Rickebusch
FR - St Martin d'Hères

mp3 for music download

Message 46829 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Nov 2006 13:21:35 · Top

Sophie Rickebusch wrote:

> What do the musicians think?

I'm a musician but I haven't so far recorded anything for sale. Even so:

There are lots of people playing SCD music but I don't think many can make a
full-time profession of it -- they usually have day jobs to pay the bills, or
other sources of income. Which is not to say that they're not entitled to
earn something by way of their music! The point is that the scene includes
very few Robbie Williamses or Britney Spearses, whose album sales number in
the millions and whose bank accounts mirror this fact -- and that the Robbie
Williamses and Britney Spearses of this world have record labels who bankroll
their exploits (at considerable gain to themselves, but that is a topic
better left for another forum).

A SCD musician or band, on the other hand, if they want to publish a CD, have
to cover most of the costs involved by themselves, up-front. This includes
studio hire, artwork, CD duplication, composers' royalties, and so on, which
can amount to a sizeable bundle of cash which must then be recouped. One of
the advantages of »modern« music distribution channels such as the Internet
is that these up-front costs can be considerably reduced because as a
musician I don't have to come up with a couple thousand Euros to finance a CD
production run -- all I have to do is upload an MP3 file to a suitable
server, at which point distribution costs are marginal. This, if anything,
should encourage SCD musicians to look hard at MP3 files on the Internet as a
way of distributing recordings. Especially so because people are usually
interested in music for specific dances rather than complete albums of dance
music. With dance-centred MP3 distribution, there is no obligation to get
together a balanced set of reels, jigs, and strathspeys to fill up 80
minutes' worth of space on a CD, because people can pick and choose what they
want.

The problem with this is that the whole idea is fairly new and hasn't really
caught on. If we as potential customers make the musicians aware of the fact
that this would be interesting to us, and if things can be worked out so
that, in fact, money *does* go back to the musicians (i.e., no clandestine
peer-to-peer exchange of SCD tracks on eDonkey etc.) there should be no
problem with adopting this.

Then again, what would be *really* cool would be a pool of SCD recordings
under a Creative-Commons style license -- free for anyone to download, copy,
pass on or rework (e.g., by cutting out some turns from a 8x32 dance to make
a 3x32 set for a performance, something that I find myself doing every so
often). I think there might be a market (sort of) for low-budget recordings
of music for dances that have so far slipped through the cracks of the
recording artists.

For example, earlier this year we had fun with Ian Brockbank's dance,
Triskelion, which is a 3S32+3R32 medley. I'm not aware of recorded music with
that barring (let alone the recommended tunes), but I do have a live cut from
our ball, where Christine Moos and myself played for the dance. This is by no
means a perfect recording, but it is better than nothing at all -- and I
would, in principle, be happy to put it up for people to download just so
they could try the dance. This might give the dance some well-deserved
exposure, and maybe in time someone more professional than we will do a
*nice* recording :^) Everyone gains.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. -- John Lennon

mp3 for music download

Message 46830 · George Meikle · 17 Nov 2006 13:26:10 · Top

Marie,

I was interested in your idea about putting tracks on the web for people to
download at will. As a working musician, and one who has recently made 3 new
recordings for various parties in the past 18 months, I would be totally and
utterly against it as to do so would in my opinion totally and utterly kill
off the production of the CD's for SCD'ing.

Let me try to explain in simple terms - all prices quoted are in GB pounds.

Although CD's used to be fairly cheap to produce, the selling price has
really not kept abreast with either the production costs nowadays or
inflation. It can cost anything up to 8,000 to produce an initial run of
1000 CD's and that has to be paid up front before release. I know there are
possibly some cheaper ways about for the production of CD recordings but I
feel it is important to produce a quality product, which is not cheap. A lot
of work goes into the recording, editing, production etc of a recording and
experienced man hours do not come cheap nowadays.

The average price for a CD that most dancers are prepared to pay is still of
the order of 12.00, as it probably was when CD's were first introduced
umpteen years ago! If it is more than that then sales generally are very
slow. That means you will have to sell around 700 just to break even and
that can take a long time to achieve. Because it is so easy to copy CD's
nowadays, it can be very difficult to actually sell 700+ CD's in order to
achieve the break even point, let alone a profit. If a producer or band can
sell more than the initial 1,000 CD's that is great because it is likely
that the 2nd batch of 1,000 will probably cost less than 2,000, which means
that each of those CD's that are sold will make a big profit. The problem is
selling the initial 1,000 - take it from me that it can be very hard work.

If you were to put tracks on the Web I believe that dancers would just pick
and choose what they want from the actual CD recording. Now we all know that
on any given CD (especially if it is to accompany a brand new book of
dances, which although tried and tested before publication probably do not
meet with everyone's approval), the chance are that you will be lucky if
half of them are danced regularly and it is more likely that you may be
looking at 3 good dances which might 'make it'. If dancers were to download
these 3 files from iTunes etc the artist or producer of the CD will probably
only get around 1.00 from the download site, whereas they would get the full
12.00 if the dancer were to buy the CD. As you still have the production
costs anyway to produce the initial recording you can see that you need a
lot of downloads to recover the 8,000 initial outlay. I for one do not
believe that there really is enough market out there to generate the large
amounts of downloads required to reach the break even point, let alone make
some sort of profit for you initial investment. Many elderly country dancers
do not even have a CD player, let alone an MP3 or similar.

Nobody will make a fortune from making SCD CD's, and certainly not the
musicians. It often takes weeks of preparation work to get ready for a
recording and the fee we receive in no way compensates you for the actual
time and effort required or expended.

Please leave the CD producers the opportunity to make a reasonable return
for their investment when making a recording. Maybe dancers need to face up
to the fact that they have had SCD'ing too cheap for too many years. If they
want recordings they are going to have to pay realistic prices for them and
not get them on the cheap off the Web.

I firmly believe that putting them on the Web will not be for the good of
SCD'ing and should be regarded as an un realistic option.

Kind regards
George Meikle
Lothian Scottish Dance Band
Dunfermline

mp3 for music download

Message 46831 · Ian Brockbank · 17 Nov 2006 13:51:05 · Top

Hi Anselm,

> For example, earlier this year we had fun with Ian Brockbank's dance,
> Triskelion, which is a 3S32+3R32 medley. I'm not aware of
> recorded music with that barring

Glad you enjoyed it. Recordings for The Iona Cross recordings match up
- I think Gordon Shand has recorded this, and possibly others also.

> Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany .....................
> anselm@strathspey.org
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
> -- John Lennon

I know it's been said before, but your automatic signature generator
is definitely developing intelligence...

Cheers,

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
ian@scottishdance.net
http://www.scottishdance.net/

mp3 for music download

Message 46832 · David Ambrose · 17 Nov 2006 14:00:46 · Top

George,

Have you not just made all the arguments for selling your tracks in MP3
format.

Firstly CD's are copied very easily these days reducing your sales.
Secondly selling directly on the internet would mean you do not have to
pay for the initial outlay of producing CD's
Thirdly that if I just want one track you get £1 whereas for just one
track I may use a different piece of music if it is going to cost me £12
for the one track I really want.
Fourthly you do not have to put a whole CD worth of music together to
sell an individual track.

I very much agree that I would always want the monies to go to the
artist not the CD production company etc.

(having purchased your Diamond Jubilee book from you directly at Summer
School as an example)

David Ambrose
Colchester, Essex UK

mp3 for music download

Message 46837 · George Meikle · 17 Nov 2006 14:38:04 · Top

David Ambrose wrote:-

> Have you not just made all the arguments for selling your tracks in
> MP3 format.

Answer - I certainly hope not as that was not my intention!

> Firstly CD's are copied very easily these days reducing your sales.

Answer - MP3 files are just as easy to copy

> Secondly selling directly on the internet would mean you do not have
> to pay for the initial outlay of producing CD's

Answer - The initial outlay, before any CD's is produced, can be over
£6,000. That equates to a lot of MP3 downloads to recover initial costs!
Probably around 20,000+ downloads.

> Thirdly that if I just want one track you get £1 whereas for just one
> track I may use a different piece of music if it is going to cost me
> £12 for the one track I really want.

Answer - I did not say £1 per download. I was referring to 3 downloads for
£1 or around 30p per download. Most folk will use the other tracks on a CD a
suitable alternatives for other dances on their class or dance programme,
hence the reason they will buy the CD.

> Fourthly you do not have to put a whole CD worth of music together
> to sell an individual track.

Answer - No, but you have the same amount of setting up time in a studio
whether or not you are recording one track or 20. The setting up time is
expensive and would generate an even higher cost per track than if you
record 20 tracks at the same time.

> I very much agree that I would always want the monies to go to the
> artist not the CD production company etc.

Answer - The problem is that the monies do not go to the artists. They
always go to the producer of the recording who are the ones who have outlaid
the money. For example, when a band makes a recording for the RSCDS it is
paid a fixed fee for the actual recording session which does not take into
account whether or not it sells only 1 or 1 million copies. If it sold a
million copies we would not receive a penny more than if it sold only 1 copy
- that is a fact.

I might add that I could see an opportunity for some of the older recordings
(which are no longer available) being made available on the Web. In most
cases their initial costs would have been re-covered and any subsequent
downloads would be a 'bonus' in terms of sales when the recording is no
longer available for purchase by conventional means.

David - Hope this answers the points you raised.

Kind regards
George Meikle
Dunfermline

Triskelion

Message 46835 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Nov 2006 14:06:42 · Top

Ian Brockbank wrote:

> Recordings for The Iona Cross recordings match up
> - I think Gordon Shand has recorded this, and possibly others also.

Colin Dewar, actually (according to DanceData). What irks me that I have the
CD in question, and have had it for a while. There would have been no need to
spend time in Audacity, to mangle bits and pieces from »Terpsichore« into
something Liz Donaldson wouldn't recognise :^)

Anyway, nice dance. It's a good alternative to the old war horses from the
medley front -- people hereabouts do get a bit tired of doing 1314 or Johnnie
Walker over and over again ...

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Well-being is attained by little and little, and nevertheless it is no little
thing itself. -- Zeno of Citium, after Diogenes Laertius

mp3 for music download

Message 46833 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Nov 2006 14:01:11 · Top

George Meikle wrote:

> Nobody will make a fortune from making SCD CD's, and certainly not the
> musicians. It often takes weeks of preparation work to get ready for a
> recording and the fee we receive in no way compensates you for the actual
> time and effort required or expended.

This applies not only to recordings but to playing »live« as well. The
question is, why are we doing this in the first place? It's not because we
enjoy being exploited but because we love the music and what the dancers are
doing with it. Playing SCD music is a hobby for me and being paid for it is
nice. I wouldn't mind being paid more, but if I hike up my fees to where
event organisers are no longer willing to go along I don't get to play at
all, which is not nice. If I billed my SCD music time the way I bill my
professional time (or my company does, anyway) nobody would be able to afford
having me play (and frankly, I don't think I'm that good to begin with :^)).

> Please leave the CD producers the opportunity to make a reasonable return
> for their investment when making a recording. Maybe dancers need to face up
> to the fact that they have had SCD'ing too cheap for too many years. If
> they want recordings they are going to have to pay realistic prices for
> them and not get them on the cheap off the Web.

I think this is putting the reins on the horse from behind (as we say here in
Germany). The challenge is not how to prevent people from »getting music on
the cheap off the Web«, which will be impossible in the long run, but how to
make their getting music off the Web worthwhile for the musicians.

The economics of George Meikle CDs are considerably different from those of
Robbie Williams CDs. Where George has trouble selling seven hundred CDs just
to break even, Robbie's »problem« is that with a CD with a 12-pound price
tag, 1 pound covers the duplication of the actual physical CD (including the
fancy case and booklet), he gets a bit more than that for himself, and most
of the rest stays with his record label. (Since Robbie's CD sales number not
in the hundreds but in the hundred thousands, which means that he is going to
get a nice check even so, the cost of the actual recording forms a much
smaller portion of the total money involved in the venture.) Therefore, in
the big-money scene, it's often not the artists who have problems with
people »getting music on the cheap off the web« (they generally like people
to listen to their music, and many of the bigger ones do not need to worry
about their rent money, anyway) but the record labels -- and, as George is
essentially his own record label, his argument is from a record label's point
of view, »This new-fangled thing is hurting the way we have been doing
business for ages. How can we get rid of it?«, where the real question should
be »How can we make this pay?«.

Possibly one way of approaching this would be to make out-of-catalog material
available for download instead of recently-recorded stuff that hasn't yet
broken even. There are lots of great SCD albums around which are no longer in
production, and which you could not get anywhere for love or money if you
wanted to. Now this opens up a whole new can of worms, what with securing the
necessary rights to re-publish these and so on, but given a certain amount of
up-front work I don't think the estates of some of the SCD music greats from
yesteryear would refuse a modest amount of money rolling towards them every
so often :^) This is true because once the tracks in question have been
digitised and cleaned up, actually distributing them costs essentially
nothing.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
The imagination of nature is far, far greater than the imagination of man.
-- Richard P. Feynman

mp3 for music download

Message 46838 · George Meikle · 17 Nov 2006 15:02:29 · Top

Anslem wrote:

> -- and, as George is essentially his own record label, his argument
> is from a record label's point of view

I most certainly do not run a record label and my arguments are certainly
not from a record label's point of view. The CD sales I am trying to achieve
are purely to help those who have outlaid money in producing the CD's of the
recordings we have made. Having made the recording for them and received our
fee I am not the type to walk away and leave them to get on with selling
their product and will try to help them to the best of my ability. It is
getting folks to buy the CD's that is the hard bit and I will do my best to
help.

I am only a bandleader who makes recordings for other parties, whether that
be an individual, a SCD club or group, or a record production company. In
the SCD scene they are all in the same boat trying to travel up a stream
which is fast becoming a raging torrent against them due to lack of sales.

Like Anslem, I also play for the love of the music and I agree that playing
SCD music will never generate a realistic income for anyone to live off. I
was fortunate in being able to take early retirement from my work and like
Anselm treat it as a paid hobby and do it for the love of the music and the
pleasure of seeing dancers getting enjoyment from our efforts.

As I stated in a previous email I would have no problems with old recordings
being made available for download from the Web, but only once initial costs
have been covered. I would love to see some of my own early LP recordings
made with the Lothian Scottish Dance Band made available on the Web. However
there would be costs involved in cleaning up these old recordings so that
they are of reasonable quality and that is not cheap process. These costs
would have to be taken into account against what the actual income from
download sales would be.

Kind regards
George Meikle
Dunfermline

mp3 for music download

Message 46839 · Ian Brown · 17 Nov 2006 15:53:25 · Top

George said "I might add that I could see an opportunity for
some of the older recordings (which are no longer available)
being made available on the Web. In most cases their initial
costs would have been re-covered and any subsequent
downloads would be a 'bonus' in terms of sales when the
recording is no longer available for purchase by
conventional means".

How might we go about adopting this idea and what would be
the consequences?

I write as one who is constantly being surprised at the
number of dances for which we don't have the right music on
CD. In a disappointing number of cases it is not available
to my knowledge.

I am not trying to avoid buying CDs where they contain
useful music but too often CDs that I would consider contain
ceilidh dances too and these would not be of interest to us.

George, have you any indication of the costs of cleaning up
existing tracks for re-recording, either as CD or MP3?
Presumably there are commercial bureau who would be able to
quote for this.

Would you expect to be able to give the necessary consent on
behalf of all of the parties with an interest in the "old"
recordings?

How many of us would need to be interested in a recording in
order to underwrite the costs associated?

What might be the unintended consequences? Would the extra
income and interest in older recordings be welcomed by
musicians generally or would we depress their willingness to
make new recordings?

Ian Brown
Harrogate Saltire Scottish Country Dance Club

mp3 for music download

Message 46843 · John Mccain · 17 Nov 2006 17:38:07 · Top

I'll guess that this type of distribution is inevitable. I'll also guess that someone will figure out how to make it as profitable, or more, as the current system.

I would certainly be interested in this, especially if the music was available in a high-quality download rather than a low-bit rate mp3.

I found this website: http://tinyurl.com/wo9fo by doing a quick search, and, even though the music is free here, it's an example of how this can work.

Best, John

mp3 for music download

Message 46847 · L. Friedman-Shedlov · 17 Nov 2006 18:20:35 · Top

I would very much like to buy music in downloadable form. Although I
would prefer to have the option of buying individual tracks (while I enjoy
having several different recordings to choose from for a particular dance,
I really don't need an umpteenth recording of Reel of the 51st, Reel of
the Royal Scots, etc.!) , I would be willing to buy entire albums if
necessary just to avoid the work of 'ripping' every CD so I can play it
on our branch laptop. I would, of course, expect to pay somewhat less for
an electronic version of an album than I would for a CD.

George's arguments against moving to an individual track model seem
compelling, but there is plenty of evidence out there that this is a
viable model for other genres, so I find it hard to believe we couldn't
find some workable model for SCD music.

Two years ago, when RSCDS Chairman Stewart Adam visited our branch, he
told me that RSCDS was considering making individual tracks available for
download/purchase via their web site. I stood up and cheered.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen or heard of any further developments on
this front, though.

As for those who don't have access to the technology to play downloadable
formats, it would be relatively easy for a vendor to burn CDs "on demand"
for those who need them.

Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

********************************
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Librarians -- Like Google, but
ldfs@bigfoot.com warm-blooded"
********************************

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006, Marie Disiewicz wrote:
> I am curious how many of you would like to buy your dance pieces a
dance at a time and how many would prefer to have the CD in hand with all
the music that the musicians have invested all their talent and money in?
>
> I am curious as to why the musicians have not come up with the idea
themselves if this is such a good idea.
>

mp3 for music download

Message 46864 · ron.mackey · 18 Nov 2006 00:53:01 · Top

> Two years ago, when RSCDS Chairman Stewart Adam visited our branch, he
> told me that RSCDS was considering making individual tracks available for
> download/purchase via their web site. I stood up and cheered.
> Unfortunately, I haven't seen or heard of any further developments on
> this front, though.

My, that would certainly show up the 'interesting' dances that are
introduced in RCDS day-w/e schools as 'are not done very often'!! :~)
At least half of my class music comes from that reservoir.
Ron
L,C& IB
(my signatures will still not work! :(

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