strathspey Archive: 9/8 vs 6/8

Here's a new thread for the historians. Does anyone know why dances
originally done in 9/8 rhythm were massaged into 6/8. Why 9/8 died out in SCD while
it stayed alive in ECD. And when did this all happen.
Woo'd and Married an A' is from the Wilson collection, 1816 and was issued
in book 16 in 1956. Every time I have played it I felt that the tune was
really supposed to be 9/8. I just 'invested' in some nice music collections and
discovered Woo'd and Married and A' is printed as from the Brem Collection
and is in 9/8. The 2 melody lines are virtually the same.
We dance Strip the Willow in 9/8 with a running step. Why not these other
old dances?
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
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SMiskoe@aol.com wrote:

> Here's a new thread for the historians. Does anyone know why dances
> originally done in 9/8 rhythm were massaged into 6/8. Why 9/8 died out in
> SCD while
> it stayed alive in ECD. And when did this all happen.
> Woo'd and Married an A' is from the Wilson collection, 1816 and was issued
> in book 16 in 1956. Every time I have played it I felt that the tune was
> really supposed to be 9/8. I just 'invested' in some nice music collections
> and
> discovered Woo'd and Married and A' is printed as from the Brem Collection
> and is in 9/8. The 2 melody lines are virtually the same.
> We dance Strip the Willow in 9/8 with a running step. Why not these other
> old dances?
> Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

I don't know the answer but I'm betting Goss will say it's Miss Milligan's
fault! ;-) -Steve

--
Steve Wyrick -- Concord, California

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I just did a quick calculation - it is now 3:08am (or thereabouts) on Friday
morning in Mall orca -- so methinks by the time we (on the West Coast of the
US) wake up tomorrow morning Richard will have provided us with the answer
in 10,000 words or less - and, of course, why Miss Milligan changed it!
Sorry Richard - couldn't help myself!

Ann McBride
Los Angeles

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Good morning, Anne. Your clock is not quite correct. Here I get up at 06:00 (problem with having stone masons in the house - it is hard to stay in bed), so your time (I forget exactly) it is either 21:00 or 22:00 last night. The only reason I am late with my mail this morning is that I am installing the dirt part of my roof garden and I wanted to get rid of last night´s load in time to get a new load before it got too hot. The garden is not large 40x40x300cm, but that is a lot of dirt to carry up three floors.
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Not much help with the when or where but I have always loved 9/8 rhythm
since being introduced to it through Irish dancing.

Skip change as we know it does not fit to 9/8 but I enjoy the running
step (with a wee, wee bit of Irish flair). Can't say that the rest of
our group does though.

We once had a gentleman come to dancing doing the steps the military way
which I thought quite pretty in itself but he never came back after the
unrelenting insistence from one of our club's founding members that he
had to dance "our" way.

The culprit who dropped 9/8 from SCD seems to be standardisation then.

Wouter Joubert

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"Fault" please. This is a negative term. Only uptight anal retentives, unable to accept the concepts of two possible rights (as opposed right/wrong) and degrees of right, Equate disagreement as defacto negative.
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Richard, it would be a lot easier to follow your replies if you quoted the
previous message...

Well, assuming this is aimed at me, I do consider this a bad decision, since
there are a lot of great 9/8 tunes out there that we can no longer use
unless someone cleverly converts them to 6/8, and I assume it's the same
with the dances that went with them. If ECD and Scottish step dance could
retain or recreate the 9/8 dances I don't see why the RSCDS couldn't. -Steve

Richard Goss wrote:

> "Fault" please. This is a negative term. Only uptight anal retentives, unable
> to accept the concepts of two possible rights (as opposed right/wrong) and
> degrees of right, Equate disagreement as defacto negative.
> _______________________________________________
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In a message dated 9/23/2005 9:37:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sjwyrick@astound.net writes:

lot of great 9/8 tunes out there that we can no longer use
unless someone cleverly converts them to 6/8

Don't. There's a lot lost in translation and the tune cries to be put back
in 9/8.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
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Syliva wrote (in reply to Steve):

> lot of great 9/8 tunes out there that we can no longer use
> unless someone cleverly converts them to 6/8
>
> Don't. There's a lot lost in translation and the tune cries
> to be put back in 9/8.

Woo'd and Married an A' is a perfect example of what goes wrong.
In 6/8, as published by the RSCDS, (achieved by taking 9/8 and
extending the last note over the following 3 quavers*)
Dum da diddly | daaaaaaaa de | dum da diddly | daaaaaaaa
de | diddly diddly | daaaaaaaa de | dum de diddly | daaaaaaaa

Very laborious and galumphing - stops at the end of every second bar.

In 9/8:

Dum da diddly daa de | dum da diddly daa
de | diddly diddly daa de | dum de diddly daa

Much more lively, rolls along - actually quite a nice tune!

- Dum da is crotchet followed by quaver
- diddly is three quavers
- de is the quaver up-beat
- daa is a crotchet (so "daa de" is the same as "dum da", except
there's a phrase break)
- daaaaaaaaaaa is far too long a note (must be 5 quavers, or maybe
it's 4 plus a 2-quaver up-beat) which completely stops the tune
in its tracks.

*For the Americans+, a crotchet is a quarter note and a quaver is an
eighth note.
+Or is it everyone except us Brits?

Cheers,

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
ian@scottishdance.net
http://www.scottishdance.net/

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Most American musicians I know (at least those trained), know the difference between a minim and a hemi-semi-dimi-quaver.

My American handicap, having sung numbers from "Sound of Music" in concert is the 7th tone of the scale.

Remember the "... tea, a drink with jam and bread...", here in Spain, and much of Europe, including the Austria of María Von Trapp, it is "si" which simply does not work with the song.

First noticed the problem when my music teacher here (oboe) said what sounded like "c" and even though my pitch indicator told me I was right, she kept indicating that I was sharp. I was thinking of the name of the note - tonic C on the scale, and she was speaking of solfa "si" which is the 7th note of the scale, "B".

My only objection with minims etc. is that one must translate to do the math.
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SMiskoe@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/23/2005 9:37:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> sjwyrick@astound.net writes:
>
> lot of great 9/8 tunes out there that we can no longer use
> unless someone cleverly converts them to 6/8
>
>
> Don't. There's a lot lost in translation and the tune cries to be put back
> in 9/8.
> Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

Yes, I was mostly being ironic but that doesn't translate well to print!
I've only heard a couple of these conversions that I thought sounded decent.
One is The Old Dutch Churn, which is a fairly popular tune in Cape Breton in
6/8. In this case the shift from 9/8 to 6/8 was done by changing the 1st 2
notes of each measure (always a quarter and an eighth) to dotted quarters.
I play both versions, for different dance groups (Scottish step and Cape
Breton hardshoe) and to me it works well either way. -Steve
--
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"I do consider this a bad decision, since there are a lot of great 9/8 tunes out there that we can no longer use ..."

I agree that the results are negative, I only object to the "blame Miss M". I don´t think this was a decision, but an omission, so blame is not appropriate since your were suggesting that I would blame here. This would be like the guy in California who risked his life saving a guy from a burning car, which blew up on the process causing considerable damage to the rescuer. The rescued person, then sued the rescuer for damage to his back in the process of saving his life.

OT. I notice that the Brits are following after the U.S. in law suits based on stupidity. Two summers ago, I took some summer school people on a tour to Loch Leven. the castle was great but one can no longer see the view from it as the battlements are now off limits for reasons of safety (fear of law suits).

This is tongue in cheek, but I once read an essay in which the thesis was that accidents are God´s way of getting rid of stupid people, allow them to have their accidents and the race will be improved. I gave it to my students to use as a model of a well structured essay and told them to come with their own ideas. One student suggested we surround the school with razor wire, but take down the wall separating it from the motorway. That way, only the most dedicated and physicly fit students would come to class - less problems with discipline, higher grade point average, etc. Because some of the students were really getting into the topic, I had to explain eugenics and Hitler.

unless someone cleverly converts them to 6/8, and I assume it's the
same
with the dances that went with them. If ECD and Scottish step dance
could
retain or recreate the 9/8 dances I don't see why the RSCDS couldn't.
-Steve

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Sylvia wrote:

> Here's a new thread for the historians. Does anyone know why dances
> originally done in 9/8 rhythm were massaged into 6/8. Why
> 9/8 died out in SCD while
> it stayed alive in ECD. And when did this all happen.

I *think* it has to do with the standardised footwork now used by SCD. I
don't think it's possible to do skip-change, at least as we know it, to 3
beats to the bar. I had a clearer idea of all this a few years ago after
reading some of Emmerson's books.

I'm going upstairs now to pack for Ramblewood. See you all on Monday. In
between, I might try a few skip-changes in 9/8; will let you know how it
goes. Will look forward to reading more informed answers on this.

Pat

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The RSCDS is a revival movement, started long after many of its current forms had already died. Except for about books 1-3, most of our "traditional" dances were already dead and recreated from books, not living memory. One problem with revival movements, is that those things which are not revived, are more likely to be cast in the shadow of what is saved, the 9/8 jig being one. The popularity of "Strip the Willow" in Scotland and the Borders is that it has a living tradition, that predated the RSCDS, and continues among the "folk" independent of the RSCDS.

Because the Miss M philosophy was towards the more gentile, she chose to avoid those things that were less so. At the same time she could not make "Strip the Willow" disappear, so she published it with the option of 6/8. Since our music is only part of the larger tradition, one will find that it is danced to 6/8, 2/4, 4/4, and 9/8, all mixed in the same dance.

In the data base, I gave the RSCDS in the early 80´s, there were literally hundreds of 6/8 dances, many from the same sources as most of our other dances.

I think, that one of Miss M´s objections, and mine, is that it is often the band that plays the music too fast, making it difficult to our phrasing style. The non sanctioned versions have the following practices that would be anathema at an RSCDS function.
1. When the 1s are late in getting to the bottom, the new 1s start anyway, sometimes on time.
2. Musicians play until they spot the last couple finishing to make up for poor timing on the part of the dancers.
3. Excessively long sets, nullifying the RSCDS published phrasing.
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Richard Goss wrote:-

> I think, that one of Miss M´s objections, and mine,
> is that it is often the band that plays the music too
> fast, making it difficult to our phrasing style.

I just knew that the blame for the change from 9/8 to 6/8 would rest with
the musicians!!! Why are they always the scapegoat and used as the ones to
blame!!! Could it not just possibly be that the dancers phrasing style is
wrong!!!

Only kidding, so don't take the strunts!

George Meikle
Lothian Scottish Dance Band

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I know you are just kidding. But on my part, I should have said "some musicians". Of course a part of the problem is that the musicians are paid for by the dancers, and those around at the time the society was founded liked dances at a feverish pace. Personally I hate the 6/8 version of strip the willow as it moves too fast (OK, a 2 bar one armed turn is fast, but a series of them is frantic). My favorite memory of doing this dance is a folk festival where the band was the High Level Ranters (Northumbria, I seem to remember). They alternated tunes for each couple, starting with "Drops of Brandy" [9/8] at a gentle pace, and a traditional Irish tune, published by Shand as the "Bluebell Polka" danced step hop to strathspey time.

There must be a history behind this but sometime after the first few books and much later the RSCDS gave up a good opportunity to have more control of the music and musicians. For the early books, the RSCDS published, or authorized, 78´s, and now, of course we have our own series matched to our books.
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Richard Goss wrote:

> Personally I hate the 6/8 version of strip
> the willow as it moves too fast (OK, a 2 bar one armed turn is fast, but a
> series of them is frantic).

We play for ceilidhs every so often here in Germany (various people want to
have something special for their weddings and such) and »Strip the Willow« is
always near the top of the list of dances that are done. It does not matter
in the least that people (especially Germans doing it for the first time)
will make a complete and utter mess of it -- usually you have five minutes of
total mayhem on the floor and then they want to do it again immediately.

Just for the record, we always play the 9/8 music because we enjoy it so much
(if the dancers can have fun then we're surely entitled to a bit, too) -- but
at ceilidhs in Scotland I have only heard 6/8 jigs for StW.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau, Frankfurt, Germany ..................... anselm@strathspey.org
Love is like Pi -- natural, irrational and *very* important. -- Lisa Hoffmann
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On 23 sep R. Goss wrote that RSCDS is a revival movement. I was under the
impression that JCM got a lot of her information from Dancie Reid, who was
active in this area (Glenfarg) within living memory (just!). Is that not
the case?

>From: Richard Goss <goss9@sbcglobal.net>
>Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>To: SCD news and discussion <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>Subject: Re: 9/8 vs 6/8
>Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>The RSCDS is a revival movement, started long after many of its current
>forms had already died. Except for about books 1-3, most of our
>"traditional" dances were already dead and recreated from books, not living
>memory. One problem with revival movements, is that those things which are
>not revived, are more likely to be cast in the shadow of what is saved, the
>9/8 jig being one. The popularity of "Strip the Willow" in Scotland and the
>Borders is that it has a living tradition, that predated the RSCDS, and
>continues among the "folk" independent of the RSCDS.
>
>Because the Miss M philosophy was towards the more gentile, she chose to
>avoid those things that were less so. At the same time she could not make
>"Strip the Willow" disappear, so she published it with the option of 6/8.
>Since our music is only part of the larger tradition, one will find that it
>is danced to 6/8, 2/4, 4/4, and 9/8, all mixed in the same dance.
>
>In the data base, I gave the RSCDS in the early 80´s, there were literally
>hundreds of 6/8 dances, many from the same sources as most of our other
>dances.
>
>I think, that one of Miss M´s objections, and mine, is that it is often the
>band that plays the music too fast, making it difficult to our phrasing
>style. The non sanctioned versions have the following practices that would
>be anathema at an RSCDS function.
>1. When the 1s are late in getting to the bottom, the new 1s start anyway,
>sometimes on time.
>2. Musicians play until they spot the last couple finishing to make up for
>poor timing on the part of the dancers.
>3. Excessively long sets, nullifying the RSCDS published phrasing.
>_______________________________________________
>http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey

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Miss M, "lot of her information from Dancie Reid"

I also heard that rumor. Unfortunately there seems to be no documentation as to what information and where it went in our dancing. What is documented to some extent is that all of the dances in the first three books, were already in print and circulating outside the society. The difference being that our first books, were also the bulletin and hand book, so we were able to put our stamp on what followed. Where it specificly came from before book one is anyone´s guess. As to the later dances they were simply reconstructed from dance books found in libraries and private collections.

The problem with RSCDS footnotes, as it used to say if one read the fine print, is that they are not footnotes, only the earliest known reference to a dance of that name, but not specificly the dance that we published.

As to Miss M´s pre Book I expertise, note that in the famous precurser, the Beltain Society (reference to McFadzean´s "house" bio of Miss M, all of the dances performed were already revived by the EFDSS and are still part of their rep.

It was not until several books into our series that we invented something called "Scottish Country Dancing", our original definition was "country dances as danced in Scotland". Miss M, and the society, created a border between the country dancing of Scotland and England, that had not existed previously. Even most of the Scottish music that we now use, was first published in London (majority of Gow, Bremner, etc.). In the various sources, most of the dancing masters came from the south or the continent. When it comes to a lot of the Highland material, its source can be traced back to Belgium.
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I also understood that the army had quite a cu;lture of dance going on,
which resulted in Highland dance being continued as well as country dancing.
I guess that the style of the "County set" owes quite a bit to that, though
to me it looks very 1920 period. These, plus the dancing masters such as
Dancie Reid and the guy who taught the Queen mother, were still teaching
country dancing in Scotland when JCM was trying to gather together what was
to be gathered. I doubt if anyone thought of it as specifically Scottish,
more just the local accent or way of doing things. But there was still quite
a bit of activity to work with, so reconstruction was hardly necessary. Kiss
of life, perhaps!

>From: Richard Goss <goss9@sbcglobal.net>
>Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>To: SCD news and discussion <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>Subject: Re: 9/8 vs 6/8
>Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Miss M, "lot of her information from Dancie Reid"
>
>I also heard that rumor. Unfortunately there seems to be no documentation
>as to what information and where it went in our dancing. What is documented
>to some extent is that all of the dances in the first three books, were
>already in print and circulating outside the society. The difference being
>that our first books, were also the bulletin and hand book, so we were able
>to put our stamp on what followed. Where it specificly came from before
>book one is anyone´s guess. As to the later dances they were simply
>reconstructed from dance books found in libraries and private collections.
>
>The problem with RSCDS footnotes, as it used to say if one read the fine
>print, is that they are not footnotes, only the earliest known reference to
>a dance of that name, but not specificly the dance that we published.
>
>As to Miss M´s pre Book I expertise, note that in the famous precurser, the
>Beltain Society (reference to McFadzean´s "house" bio of Miss M, all of the
>dances performed were already revived by the EFDSS and are still part of
>their rep.
>
>It was not until several books into our series that we invented something
>called "Scottish Country Dancing", our original definition was "country
>dances as danced in Scotland". Miss M, and the society, created a border
>between the country dancing of Scotland and England, that had not existed
>previously. Even most of the Scottish music that we now use, was first
>published in London (majority of Gow, Bremner, etc.). In the various
>sources, most of the dancing masters came from the south or the continent.
>When it comes to a lot of the Highland material, its source can be traced
>back to Belgium.
>_______________________________________________
>http://strathspey.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/strathspey

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If you notice photos of Elizabeth II, both as princess and queen dancing SCD, she is dancing in the "county" and not the RSCDS style (note overcrossing in what tends to be a 2 beat pdb).
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Greetings!

Sylvia writes:

>We dance Strip the Willow in 9/8 with a running step.
Not in Scotland they don't except very infrequently in an RSCDS class as an
exercise and not one that will find a lot of favour. At a ceilidh you will
almost certainly dance it in 6/8 time and the music may change to reel time
half way through.

As to why that should be, I look forward to the views of others.

Jim Healy
Monaco

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My Strip the Willow experiences would not agree, I would say about 50/50 at ceilidhs. Of course one´s selection a a sample is a factor. I would say the running step is more common in community dances, whereas the skip change fits more with other types of ceilidhs. Remember there is no skip change of step for traveling in the "county" style. Imagine doing Willow with a traveling pdb.
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In a message dated 9/23/2005 8:33:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
goss9@sbcglobal.net writes:

RSCDS gave up a good opportunity to have more control of the music and
musicians

>From my musician's point of view I think the RSCDS has the most control over
music and musicians of the 3 genres I play (contra/square, English Country,
SCD). They insist on playing a particular tune for each dance, every dance
program has the same number of jigs, reels and strathspeys, and the dancers are
most critical of the product than the other genres.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
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This is only my personal experience/opinion as to why STW gets played in 6/8
so often. I know hundreds of jigs and easily play a bunch off the top of my
head. I don't know many 9/8 tunes, in part because I'm seldom asked to play
them. The SCD dancers don't like doing a running step which is easier to do
to 9/8 than a skip change. So between the dancers wanting something they
can do skip change to and my smaller repertoire of 9/8 it's easiest just to
play another 6/8 tune. We can play them as fast or slow as the dancers wish.
Don't blame us if the music is too fast if you haven't requested a slower
tempo.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA
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> This is only my personal experience/opinion as to why STW gets played in 6/8
> so often. .............. The SCD dancers don't like doing a running step
which is easier to do to 9/8 than a skip change.

Whyever not??

So between the dancers wanting something they
> can do skip change to etc,...
Am I getting this right that STW is done with skip change?? ^i^
With astonishment
Regards, Ron

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Taken out of context, you will notice that I said between the last 78 around 1950 and the first LP, the RSCDS had no control except which bands they hired for their dances, with the beginning of the RSCDS LP´s some of that control has returned. And you are correct, even before the return to publishing records, the RSCDS had more control than the EFDSS and others.
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We do it because it raises the energy level and is a great climax to
finish the first or second half of a dance. (If there is a last waltz it
goes in before STW)

In message <BAY108-F275C4AA4A6544AF214344D8960@phx.gbl>, Jim Healy
<jimhealy@hotmail.com> writes
> At a ceilidh you will almost certainly dance it in 6/8 time and the
>music may change to reel time half way through.
>
>As to why that should be, I look forward to the views of others.

--
Bryan McAlister
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Hi Sylvia,

> Woo'd and Married an A' is from the Wilson collection, 1816 and was issued

> in book 16 in 1956. Every time I have played it I felt that the tune was

> really supposed to be 9/8. I just 'invested' in some nice music
> collections and discovered Woo'd and Married and A' is printed as from the

> Brem Collection and is in 9/8. The 2 melody lines are virtually the same.
> We dance Strip the Willow in 9/8 with a running step. Why not these
other
> old dances?

Interesting you should mention "Woo'd and Married an A'". We did it in
the Edinburgh Branch show in the Festival Fringe (dancing in normal 6/8)
and then came off the floor leaving the band still playing - at which
point they switched to 9/8. Suddenly the tune made a whole lot more
sense. It sounds so leaden in 6/8, because it's basically 9 beats
stretched to 12 (which the band tried valiantly to fill...).

I have to say, though, that I have only ever danced a 9/8 Strip the
Willow once. Even in the ceilidh scene where the dancers don't care
about subtleties like skip-change it always seems to be in 6/8.

Cheers,

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
ian@scottishdance.net
http://www.scottishdance.net/

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Ian wrote:
>
> Interesting you should mention "Woo'd and Married an A'". We
> did it in the Edinburgh Branch show in the Festival Fringe
> (dancing in normal 6/8) and then came off the floor leaving
> the band still playing - at which point they switched to 9/8.
> Suddenly the tune made a whole lot more sense. It sounds so
> leaden in 6/8, because it's basically 9 beats stretched to 12
> (which the band tried valiantly to fill...).

I find that to be true, too, of Dusty Miller.

Pat

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