strathspey Archive: Granny

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Granny

Message 4105 · David E. Ridout · 27 May 1996 20:14:42 · Top

Aren't you patronising the elderly overmuch?. I'm 75; I get through 20 dances
at the ball without the need of being shoved, thankyou very muchDavid Ridout

Granny

Message 4106 · Trans Vector Technologies, Inc · 28 May 1996 10:33:30 · Top

I have found this exchange on Granny both amusing and puzzling.

I suppose many of us recognized and were amused by David Hill's allusion to
the fun littly ditty "Ye canna shove your Granny off the bus".

But, I am surprised by the apparent conclusion that David either does or
condones shoving our partners this way or that. If so, he must truly be a
dangerous person to have in the set! Well, there are some people like that,
but David is not one of them. In the ballroom David is a gentleman and a
competent and considerate member of a set. I am personally comfortable to
have him dancing in my set.

I suggest we not confuse one's verbal virtuosity and tendency to
hyperbolea(sp?) with one's dancing behavior!

On the issue of shoving, however, I am wondering if anyone has words of
wisdom to share about how to deal with people who, to put it kindly, are
"overly helpful" in the set either verbally or physically.

Thanks, Oberdan Otto.

Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com

Granny

Message 4114 · Courtney Cartwright · 29 May 1996 06:33:33 · Top

At 11:33 PM 5/27/96 -0700, Oberdan Otto wrote:
>I have found this exchange on Granny both amusing and puzzling.
>
>I suppose many of us recognized and were amused by David Hill's allusion to
>the fun littly ditty "Ye canna shove your Granny off the bus".
>
>But, I am surprised by the apparent conclusion that David either does or
>condones shoving our partners this way or that. If so, he must truly be a
>dangerous person to have in the set! Well, there are some people like that,
>but David is not one of them. In the ballroom David is a gentleman and a
>competent and considerate member of a set. I am personally comfortable to
>have him dancing in my set.
>
>I suggest we not confuse one's verbal virtuosity and tendency to
>hyperbolea(sp?) with one's dancing behavior!

I agree wholeheartedly with Oberdan. I would welcome David Hills into my
set any day. He has a great deal of energy and exuberence. I first met
David when
he came to Tucson for a Weekend Workshop. It was at a time for prime viewing
of Halley's Comet, which of course was not very visible at the time due to
weather, etc. David's ceilidh act was to create a model of a comet complete
with dry ice... it was quite a sight!!

My whole gist to the letter intended for David is that, yes, we all have certain
differences with the way things are done by the RSCDS. But as long as Scottish
Country Dance remains a team form of dance, there must be some set of common
rules for the dancers to follow, otherwise you'll soon find 8 independent bodies
flying about the set with no discernable pattern or goal. Oops--I think I just
described our Dem Team!

How best to avoid real shoving and pushing in a set is more difficult to get to.
The best experience I've ever had was to have a blind dancer in class. We
set the rules for everybody -- the only physical contact between dancers
should be with their hands. Guide someone, yes, but only if you're the one
dancing with them at the time and have hands joined. Otherwise, a word, a
smile, a lift of the eyebrow. This only works if the dancers keep their
eyes off the floor and
watch for the cues, however. I think it's time to train the class to give cues
nonverbally, something quite difficult to do at times but...

Thanks again.

--
Courtney Cartwright
Tucson, Arizona
ccartwri@primenet.com

Granny

Message 4117 · Susan Worland · 29 May 1996 17:25:55 · Top

>How best to avoid real shoving and pushing in a set is more difficult to
get to.
>The best experience I've ever had was to have a blind dancer in class. We
>set the rules for everybody -- the only physical contact between dancers
>should be with their hands. Guide someone, yes, but only if you're the one
>dancing with them at the time and have hands joined. Otherwise, a word, a
>smile, a lift of the eyebrow. This only works if the dancers keep their
>eyes off the floor and
>watch for the cues, however. I think it's time to train the class to give cues
>nonverbally, something quite difficult to do at times but...
>

Forgive me if I already told this story on this list... but my favorite
example of getting a nonverbal cue was at a workshop in Cleveland a few
years back. I was dancing in a set with Kitty Easton, whom many of you may
know; she was dancing as a man but not my partner. I was a beginner at the
time, I don't remember what the dance was, but I was getting confused as to
where to go and was looking for some gender clues. She saw my confusion,
correctly interpreted what I needed, and with a twinkle in her eye but no
words -- she is deaf -- made a moustache gesture on her face. That was all
I needed! A priceless moment.

Susan Worland

Girls dancing as boys

Message 4121 · Liza Blaney · 29 May 1996 22:37:12 · Top

We did consider painting mustaches on the ladies dancing on the male side. One
of our number chants softly "I'm a boy! I'm a boy! I'm a boy!" while waiting for
the chord (we dance to cassettes copied from records). It does confuse people who
do not need help being confused. I guess I'm about to make sashes...

Girls dancing as boys

Message 4126 · LuAnne Anderson · 30 May 1996 00:55:33 · Top

>We did consider painting mustaches on the ladies dancing on the male side. One
>of our number chants softly "I'm a boy! I'm a boy! I'm a boy!" while
>waiting for
>the chord (we dance to cassettes copied from records). It does confuse
>people who
>do not need help being confused. I guess I'm about to make sashes...
>
>--
>Liza Blaney <blaneyl@cs.purdue.edu>

Hi! I just signed on to the list. I dance with a group in Lincoln, NE.
And like most group there is usually more women than men that show up to
dance. We have a supply of old men's ties that a woman will grab when they
choose to dance the male part. It works real well for us. What I think
would be interesting is what would the man use to indicate he is dancing a
female part if ever such an opportunity should happen (which did believe
it or not one night at our international folkdance group - we danced
non-gender dances that night).

LuAnne

Granny

Message 4122 · Lynn Messing · 29 May 1996 23:02:08 · Top

Hello all! Susan Woland commented about a female fancer placing a finger under
her nose to emulate a moustache as a means of indicating she is dancing the
male role.

Here in the Delaware Valley Branch, I have seen and used a variant on that...
Women with long hair (often tied back into a pony tail while dancing) will
often bring a strand around and put it under their noses (sometimes scrunching
up their mouths so their upper lip will hold the strand in place) so they have
a temporary "hair moustahce". Of course, you can't do much dancing like that,
but it does work...I've seen people doing this before the dance begins (as a
jesting way to reinforce in the set's mind that the dancer will be taking a
man's role), and also when they anticipate an active dancer might have
confusion (typically when the figure involves the actives dancing with the
corners).

I had figured that this would be a fairly widespread practice; but I haven't
danced much outside of the DVB area. Is this just a local custom, after all?

cheers, Lynn Messing messing@asel.udel.edu

Granny

Message 4130 · Murray & Deanne Corps · 30 May 1996 10:34:44 · Top

While reading the recent discussion RE : Granny, I thought that some of =
you might find the following to be interesting.

"A BEGINNER'S PLEA"

Be kind, be considerate, be caring for the new ones on the scene
When a reel becomes a hazard and you feel you'd like to scream
Remember when you were learning and never thought you'd know
How long it took to allemande and that strathspeys must be slow

The feet, the hands, the eyes, the head must all do things in time
When just to find your partner is the major thing in mind!
We look the same in snow white frocks, in kilts and pumps and tartan =
socks
But some are old hands, some are new with lots to learn, so before you =
do -

Frown or growl, or push or pull, sneer or snarl, remember too
That once, perhaphs, long, long ago you were new and didn't know
Your heart would thump, your brain would freeze
Your legs would knock about your knees

You knew you were the only one who'd mess the reels up one by one!
So be kind, be considerate, be caring for the new ones on the scene
Then clubs will grow in numbers which was Miss Milligan's Hope and =
dream!

I hope that you have enjoyed the above. It wasw written by one of our =
dancers for the local Newsletter, but I am, the meanings could apply to =
any club or group, where-ever in the world.

Yours in SCDing

Murray Corps

Granny

Message 4137 · Armin Busse · 31 May 1996 17:34:51 · Top

Granny can usually get there better under her own steam.

A friend of mine is elderly, and her pdbs are now more indication than an
exclaimation but, by golly, that woman always knows where she is suppose
to be and is THERE, on time. I'd much rather dance with her than the
Shover.

Colleen's comments about subtle clues hits the mark. There shouldn't be a
need for shouting and shoving. I now dance in a group in which I am the
only native speaker of English. It has been an excellent experience for
me, I've learned to keep my mouth shut, smile and use my eyes (and
eyebrows). When proper handing (NOT shoving) and good eyes are used, the
dance itself helps the fellow dancers.

As for the use of props for indication of who is the man, they SHOULD be
completely unnecesarry. At the beginning of each dance doesn't everyone
look to see "Okay, who is in my set?"? At that time one would make a note
of the starting positions of each dancer and therein recognize who is
dancing from which side of the dance. I think this is a habit that should
be encouraged from the very first night. OH, and greeting each dancer one
will be dancing with is a frightfully good idea in my book. It seems all
the more sociable.

Happy dancing.
Coletta Busse (formerly Hill)
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

Granny

Message 4139 · Ellen C. Campbell · 31 May 1996 19:28:28 · Top

Friends,

On May 29, 11:46am, Armin Busse wrote
> As for the use of props for indication of who is the man, they SHOULD be
> completely unnecesarry. At the beginning of each dance doesn't everyone
> look to see "Okay, who is in my set?"? At that time one would make a note
> of the starting positions of each dancer and therein recognize who is
> dancing from which side of the dance. I think this is a habit that should
> be encouraged from the very first night. OH, and greeting each dancer one
> will be dancing with is a frightfully good idea in my book. It seems all
> the more sociable.

Bravo. My sentiments exactly. As a strategy, using gender to get through
complicated figures or to maintain 'geographical' positioning within a set is
essentially flawed and unreliable -- as many women learn early on. :) Gender
should not matter, one *should* be able to do a dance from any position.
Granted, SOMETIMES in a fast moving series of turning one's partner and
corners etc., gender can be useful as a visual cue to get one through the dizzy
maze, but it should not be case that one uses gender as the only strategy to
get through a figure!

yours,

Ellen Campbell
San Francisco Branch

--

Granny

Message 4140 · Mcgarrity · 31 May 1996 20:25:18 · Top

Using some kind of visual cue to identify women dancing as men
(e.g. a red ribbon around the neck) always *sounds* like a really
good idea, but I don't think a visual cue like that has ever actually
helped me. Either I wasn't at all confused and didn't need it OR I
was so confused that the time it took me to just process the cue
made me hopelessly late ("oh my, where am I? where am I going?
who do I turn? that person has a red ribbon -- looks a little funny,
but nice color...interesting fashion statement...or -- oh no -- is it
supposed to *mean* something? does that ribbon make her/him
the right person, or the wrong person?? etc etc)
By this time, the dance has moved on without any help from me.
Are there others out there like me, who are ribbon-challenged?
Kim McGarrity
Palo Alto, CA
mcgarrity@aol.com

Granny

Message 4142 · Trans Vector Technologies, Inc · 31 May 1996 21:27:51 · Top

Ellen Campbell commented...
>Friends,
>
>On May 29, 11:46am, Armin Busse wrote
>> As for the use of props for indication of who is the man, they SHOULD be
>> completely unnecesarry...
<snip>
<unsnip>
>
>Bravo. My sentiments exactly. As a strategy, using gender to get through
>complicated figures or to maintain 'geographical' positioning within a set is
>essentially flawed and unreliable...
<snip>

Yes, but... Be careful that you do not assume that everyone thinks or can
retain information the way you do. What you and the folks who like to use
props have been describing are I call "coping strategies". These are
techniques to help you figure out where you are or where you should be in a
dance, so that you will know what to do next.

I don't believe any single coping strategy is a pancea. Effectiveness of
coping strategies vary with the situation and with the individual. Just as
we need a variety of teaching techniques for our varied types of learners
(verbal, visual, kinesthetic, etc.), we need a variety of coping
strategies.

For example, consider the dance Rob Roy by Hugh Foss. You do most of the
dance on your own side of the set and you mirror your partner through the
entire dance. In this dance neither knowing a persons dancing gender nor
their starting positions are particularly helpful. In this dance I
emphasize a number of coping strategies (some are specific to particular
figures), but the most important one is staying aligned with your partner
across the set and mirroring each other.

I am very interested in coping strategies and would like to hear about more
techniques. I would also like to know what techniques you have found
effective or not effective and why.

Thanks, Oberdan Otto

Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com

Granny

Message 4147 · ERBRUNKEN · 1 Jun 1996 03:59:16 · Top

In a message dated 96-05-31 12:37:39 EDT, you write:

>Are there others out there like me, who are ribbon-challenged?

I am not sure I have been diagnosed with that particular disfunction!.....
but being a dancer who really likes to have eye contact , I find it totally
useless to have ribbons, sashes, buttons or any othing else. I go where I
think I am meant to be, and hopefully there will be a pair of eyes
(hopefully with a dancer attached) coming at me to do whatever!

As I tell my classes, If you switch sex ( 2 women dancing together) or go
the wrong way to corners or whatever. Keep dancing, turn whoever is there
and above all KEEP SMILING! Dances fall apart more often when people STOP
dancing rather than turning corners in the wrong order..... So always be
ready!

E

Granny

Message 4148 · Courtney Cartwright · 1 Jun 1996 04:30:08 · Top

At 12:25 PM 5/31/96 -0400, Kim McGarrity wrote:
>Using some kind of visual cue to identify women dancing as men
>(e.g. a red ribbon around the neck) always *sounds* like a really
>good idea, but I don't think a visual cue like that has ever actually
>helped me. Either I wasn't at all confused and didn't need it OR I
>was so confused that the time it took me to just process the cue
>made me hopelessly late ("oh my, where am I? where am I going?
>who do I turn? that person has a red ribbon -- looks a little funny,
>but nice color...interesting fashion statement...or -- oh no -- is it
>supposed to *mean* something? does that ribbon make her/him
>the right person, or the wrong person?? etc etc)
>By this time, the dance has moved on without any help from me.
>Are there others out there like me, who are ribbon-challenged?

Well, I'm not ribbon challenged, but all the Tucson teachers agree that the
ribbons help US from being confused. It's terribly difficult to tell what's
going wrong with 3 or more sets dancing -- and two of them are all women.

I often find myself saying -- Something's gone wrong in that set, but I'm not
sure who's meant to be dancing as a man... When we use the ribbons it becomes
obvious when a lady dancing from a man's position gets confused and starts
dancing as a lady.

A number of our ladies find the ribbon helps THEM remember they're dancing
from the man's position...

I feel, whatever works, go for it... Course that doesn't help in a ball or
social dance situation, where ribbons are bound to be scarce...

Granny

Message 4152 · Donald F. Robertson · 2 Jun 1996 01:32:01 · Top

This is a WONDERFUL response. It should be printed out and given to
anyone who objects to dancing (or someone else dancing) on the other
gener's side.

-- Donald

> >Are there others out there like me, who are ribbon-challenged?
>
> I am not sure I have been diagnosed with that particular disfunction!.....
> but being a dancer who really likes to have eye contact , I find it totally
> useless to have ribbons, sashes, buttons or any othing else. I go where I
> think I am meant to be, and hopefully there will be a pair of eyes
> (hopefully with a dancer attached) coming at me to do whatever!
>
> As I tell my classes, If you switch sex ( 2 women dancing together) or go
> the wrong way to corners or whatever. Keep dancing, turn whoever is there
> and above all KEEP SMILING! Dances fall apart more often when people STOP
> dancing rather than turning corners in the wrong order..... So always be
> ready!
>
> E
>
> --
> ERBRUNKEN@aol.com
>
>
>
_________________________
Donald F. Robertson

donaldrf@hooked.net
76217.2066@CompuServe.com

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