strathspey Archive: RSCDS Matters

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RSCDS Matters

Message 37418 · fran-hfds · 27 Dec 2003 22:06:28 · Top

------- Original message ------- 
From: Oliver Thinius <info@emodancers.de> 
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:18:54 +0100 
Subject: Re: RE RSCDS Matters 
>
>fran-hfds@tiscali.co.uk schrieb am 25.12.2003:

>Do others feel displaying the name of every Branch Treasurer
>ON PUBLIC VIEW is really desirable? I certainly think
>it unneccesary and possibly dangerous.
>Fran (formerly Tresurer of Herefordshire
>SCDS)
>
>

Why is it neccessary to publish anybody's elses addresses than the
appointed branch or affiliated group secretaries on the web at all?
The secretaries will respond either by forwarding communication to
the appropriate office bearers o
> will forward the ofice bearers'
names to the party enquiring.

Having had my last look on the RSCDS website's members' section I
have not found anything at all that would justify the privacy of
password protection.

Regards, and Happy Christmas
>

Oliver Thinius
info@emodancers.de

I agree with you but my main concern here was the unsolicited addition of
information. I, as a treasurer
at the time, was not asked if I minded my name being added to the web site.
In fact I did object
and see that our new treasurer probably feels the same as their name is
missing but the Secretary's name appears
a second time. Unless people register their unhappiness about the situation
with the RSCDS nothing
will be done to remove such names.
Fran

RSCDS Matters

Message 37419 · Ron Taylor · 28 Dec 2003 08:53:40 · Top

Why is it possibly dangerous to publish the name of Branch Treasurers on the RSCDS web site, no address or telephone number is given and in what way is the Treasurer any more special than the name of the Branch Chairman? I can't see what all the fuss is about.
Also the lists aren't confined to the "members area" - which to my mind is a gimmick.

Ron Taylor
RON29@blueyonder.co.uk

RSCDS Matters

Message 37420 · Richard Goss · 28 Dec 2003 08:59:41 · Top

In doing my reasearch in the 70´s and 80´s, I wondered about one point you made as to what was so special about the treasurer. When I asked, I was told that in the early days the role of the chairman was simply to preside at meetings, it was the secretary and treasurer who did all the work of the branch and corresponded with HQ.

RSCDS Matters

Message 37424 · info · 29 Dec 2003 11:16:26 · Top

fran-hfds@tiscali.co.uk wrote on 27.12.2003:

----------<snip>-----------
I agree with you but my main concern here was the unsolicited
addition of
information. I, as a treasurer
at the time, was not asked if I minded my name being added to the web
site.
In fact I did object
and see that our new treasurer probably feels the same as their name
is
missing but the Secretary's name appears
a second time. Unless people register their unhappiness about the
situation
with the RSCDS nothing
will be done to remove such names.
Fran
----------<snip>-----------

I believe this is a point of data protection policy - if one does not
exist by now the managimg board will have to set one up.

Regards,
Oliver

RSCDS Matters

Message 37425 · Pia Walker · 29 Dec 2003 17:37:01 · Top

I must admit to not understand the reason why an office bearer of any
association would want to keep his/her name secret to the public - surely it
is nothing to be ashamed of, and if that association wants people to join
them - surely it is in the interest of the association that everyone knows
who is running it - I would not want to be associated with something where
it is difficult to find out who the management is prior to joining.

Another point is that if contact details is not openly available to the
general public, how can you actually join? Who should I as a newcomer to a
district / area contact to find out about what SCD is, if there are no
contact details? How many of the branches/clubs RSCDS and not have a
listing in any public place easily accessible? How can we expect people to
know about us, if we do not advertise?

Pia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Thinius" <info@emodancers.de>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: RSCDS Matters

fran-hfds@tiscali.co.uk wrote on 27.12.2003:

----------<snip>-----------
I agree with you but my main concern here was the unsolicited
addition of
information. I, as a treasurer
at the time, was not asked if I minded my name being added to the web
site.
In fact I did object
and see that our new treasurer probably feels the same as their name
is
missing but the Secretary's name appears
a second time. Unless people register their unhappiness about the
situation
with the RSCDS nothing
will be done to remove such names.
Fran
----------<snip>-----------

I believe this is a point of data protection policy - if one does not
exist by now the managimg board will have to set one up.

Regards,
Oliver

Unsolicited Information

Message 37428 · info · 29 Dec 2003 18:37:17 · Top

Pia,

once your contact deatils are available on the web you may receive
all kinds of un-wanted information, e-mails about how to enlage parts
of your body, viruses and worms, etc. etc. etc. .

That is a good reason for limiting personal information on the web
(and in printed ommunications) to the required minimum. I.e. the
Branch or Group or HQ secretary.

These people respectively office barers agree - by accepting the
appontment to office, or in case of HQ, by employment - to deal with
all kind of rubbish that may reach them in addition to the required /
desired communication.

We have had a short discussion whether or not the EMO Dancers should
put the "full" newsletter on the website - even though the members'
site is password protected and the files themselves are stored on
separate webspace. The result was: "yes, put it on the web, but
delete all information from the membership list of the online
version, apart from the names".

Kind regards, and Happy New Year,
Oliver Thinius
info@emodancers.de

Pia Walker schrieb am 29.12.2003:
>I must admit to not understand the reason why an office bearer of any
>association would want to keep his/her name secret to the public -
>surely it
>is nothing to be ashamed of, and if that association wants people to
>join
>them - surely it is in the interest of the association that everyone
>knows
>who is running it - I would not want to be associated with something
>where
>it is difficult to find out who the management is prior to joining.
>
>Another point is that if contact details is not openly available to
>the
>general public, how can you actually join? Who should I as a
>newcomer to a
>district / area contact to find out about what SCD is, if there are
>no
>contact details? How many of the branches/clubs RSCDS and not have
>a
>listing in any public place easily accessible? How can we expect
>people to
>know about us, if we do not advertise?
>
>Pia

Unsolicited Information

Message 37429 · Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov · 29 Dec 2003 18:51:19 · Top

In managing our own branch web site, I have adopted the following
practices to try to address the issues mentioned by Oliver:

1) I list e-mail addresses for board members, teachers, committee chairs,
and others who are in a position where it is reasonable for someone to
expect to be able to contact them. Of course, I people can state which
e-mail address they would like displayed, so people are free to give me an
address for an account which they keep specifically for this purpose (lots
of people keep free e-mail accounts -- yahoo and the like -- for use one
the web to prevent any spam that is generated from going to their "main"
address.)
2) I list e-mail addresses for regular members who do not fall into the
above categories only with the person's permission
3) I display all e-mail addresses in the format: username [at] address,
e.g. ldfs [at] bigfoot.com This format is understandable to most humans,
but seems to be pretty effective at thwarting computers trolling for
e-amil addresses to spam. Of course it is slightly less convenient for
web-users, as they must actually type the address into their e-mail
message manually, rather than just clicking on it, but in my opinion, it's
worth it.

I don't see any issue with listing names of individuals (without contact
info) for people who have leadership roles with the group.

/ Lara
Minneapolis, MN USA
RSCDS Twin Cities Branch

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
ldfs@bigfoot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Oliver Thinius wrote:
> once your contact deatils are available on the web you may receive
> all kinds of un-wanted information, e-mails about how to enlage parts
> of your body, viruses and worms, etc. etc. etc. .
>
> That is a good reason for limiting personal information on the web
> (and in printed ommunications) to the required minimum. I.e. the
> Branch or Group or HQ secretary.
>

Unsolicited Information

Message 37430 · Alasdair Graham · 29 Dec 2003 19:27:06 · Top

E-Mail addresses on the Web can be encrypted, with the result that the
actual address is not visible to spam bots or anyone trying to copy details.

The link for detail on how to do this is
http://www.jracademy.com/~jtucek/email/index.html

I use it on my home page and you can see this in action at
http://ceilidh.members.beeb.net/links.htm

All that is visible are the words "CLICK TO EMAIL ME" and if you hover the
mouse pointer over these words it just shows as a line of JavaScript code.
Clicking on the link inserts the true address into your e-mail client.

Alasdair Graham
Dumbarton, Scotland.

PS The site requires updating but the BBC have closed access down for the
festive period for maintenance work.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Thinius" <info@emodancers.de>
To: "Pia Walker" <piawalke@nascr.net>; <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Unsolicited Information (was: Re: RSCDS Matters)

Pia,

once your contact deatils are available on the web you may receive
all kinds of un-wanted information, e-mails about how to enlage parts
of your body, viruses and worms, etc. etc. etc. .

That is a good reason for limiting personal information on the web
(and in printed ommunications) to the required minimum. I.e. the
Branch or Group or HQ secretary.

These people respectively office barers agree - by accepting the
appontment to office, or in case of HQ, by employment - to deal with
all kind of rubbish that may reach them in addition to the required /
desired communication.

We have had a short discussion whether or not the EMO Dancers should
put the "full" newsletter on the website - even though the members'
site is password protected and the files themselves are stored on
separate webspace. The result was: "yes, put it on the web, but
delete all information from the membership list of the online
version, apart from the names".

Kind regards, and Happy New Year,
Oliver Thinius
info@emodancers.de

Pia Walker schrieb am 29.12.2003:
>I must admit to not understand the reason why an office bearer of any
>association would want to keep his/her name secret to the public -
>surely it
>is nothing to be ashamed of, and if that association wants people to
>join
>them - surely it is in the interest of the association that everyone
>knows
>who is running it - I would not want to be associated with something
>where
>it is difficult to find out who the management is prior to joining.
>
>Another point is that if contact details is not openly available to
>the
>general public, how can you actually join? Who should I as a
>newcomer to a
>district / area contact to find out about what SCD is, if there are
>no
>contact details? How many of the branches/clubs RSCDS and not have
>a
>listing in any public place easily accessible? How can we expect
>people to
>know about us, if we do not advertise?
>
>Pia

Unsolicited Information

Message 37431 · Anselm Lingnau · 29 Dec 2003 19:46:08 · Top

Oliver Thinius wrote:

> once your contact deatils are available on the web you may receive
> all kinds of un-wanted information, e-mails about how to enlage parts
> of your body, viruses and worms, etc. etc. etc. .

True, but it is very likely indeed that you'll get these anyway. It turns out
that spammers will automatically generate all possible e-mail addresses at
least for the major ISPs such as AOL, Hotmail, MSN, GMX, ... and send their
stuff to them. It doesn't matter in the least if you send out 100 million
messages and 99% of the addresses »bounce« -- you will still have reached 1
million people at a fraction of the cost of sending snail-mail
advertisements. If only 1% of the people you have reached take you up on
whatever you have to offer, that's still 1000 people.

It is a very wide-spread fallacy that by not publishing one's e-mail address
one will remain undisturbed by spam. This has been researched in various ways
and it turns out that if you take out an account with any freemailer and
never, ever use it at all (except for checking incoming mail) -- don't put it
on the Web, don't send mail from the account, whatever -- it will still
attract spam. As a related example, I don't use my personal job-related
e-mail address for anything but professional communication. It is not on the
Web. I don't post to mailing lists using it. But I still get a dozen or two
spam messages every day.

> That is a good reason for limiting personal information on the web
> (and in printed ommunications) to the required minimum. I.e. the
> Branch or Group or HQ secretary.

Actually, the thing to do is to use »functional« e-mail addresses like
»secretary@east-podunk.branch.rscds.org« (hypothetical) rather than personal
addresses. This will let people keep their personal mail separate from their
office-bearer mail, which is already very helpful -- even toy e-mail programs
such as Outlook Express let you sort mail into different folders according to
its recipient address. Besides, it separates the office from the person,
which is useful when the actual secretary of the East Podunk branch goes away
on an extended vacation to the Brazilian rainforest for two months, with no
e-mail access; you just redirect the functional address to whoever stands in
for him or her.

Additionally, there is now very good software available which will recognize
most spam and get rid of it without bothering the intended recipient (i.e.,
you). Many ISPs will offer this as a service. I use such software on the list
submissions, and this together with the ground rule that non-subscribers may
not post directly to the list (a »white-list scheme«, in tech jargon) helps
keep the Strathspey list, for all practical purposes, spam-free.

In the long run there will be changes to the e-mail system in general that
will make it much more difficult for spammers to do their thing. The
requisite technical changes are being hashed out as we speak. However, the
phenomenon will be with us for some time yet.

> We have had a short discussion whether or not the EMO Dancers should
> put the "full" newsletter on the website - even though the members'
> site is password protected and the files themselves are stored on
> separate webspace. The result was: "yes, put it on the web, but
> delete all information from the membership list of the online
> version, apart from the names".

I don't think there is a big technical risk with putting a membership roster
in a password-protected area on the Web, at least if the server operators
know their stuff. However, whether to do this or not is of course up to the
individual group, which will have to balance their paranoia against the
possible benefits of having the data on-line. The usual problem with this
kind of setup is social -- if there is just one user name/password for the
site then it will inevitably leak out sooner or later (Strathspey subscribers
will recognize this problem), and assigning a user name/password to every
member is a maintenance hassle. TANSTAAFL (as the man said).

I would object on general principles to having a membership roster in a public
area of a web site. Anybody from outside the group who wants to find out who
is a member can show up to the weekly class, AGM, ..., or else serve an
appropriate subpoena to the secretary. Anyway, unless it is handled very
carefully a public membership roster will probably fall foul of local data
protection/privacy legislation.

Anselm

Unsolicited Information

Message 37435 · Pia Walker · 30 Dec 2003 15:50:04 · Top

I agree that giving info must be pr peoples' agreement, but as a marketing
person, I am between a rock and a hard place saying that unsolicited mail -
printed or otherwise - is a nuisance - for the people who sell the products,
it is advertising, and for some people what you think is useless is actually
quite usefull - except the viruses and worms of course which is just people
being plain bloody-minded evil.

Sorry! I still think that association/committee members cut off the branch
they sit on (no pun intented :>)) by not wanting to make themselves
available for approach by the general public - I have been on national
committees and therefore have had my name, adress, resume and contact
details distributed and have had very little problems.

Most people who search for, say SCD, are people who are searching
specifically for a reason, and I really think that the problems are less
than the benefits.

Happy New Year

Pia

Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Thinius" <info@emodancers.de>
To: "Pia Walker" <piawalke@nascr.net>; <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Unsolicited Information (was: Re: RSCDS Matters)

Pia,

once your contact deatils are available on the web you may receive
all kinds of un-wanted information, e-mails about how to enlage parts
of your body, viruses and worms, etc. etc. etc. .

That is a good reason for limiting personal information on the web
(and in printed ommunications) to the required minimum. I.e. the
Branch or Group or HQ secretary.

These people respectively office barers agree - by accepting the
appontment to office, or in case of HQ, by employment - to deal with
all kind of rubbish that may reach them in addition to the required /
desired communication.

We have had a short discussion whether or not the EMO Dancers should
put the "full" newsletter on the website - even though the members'
site is password protected and the files themselves are stored on
separate webspace. The result was: "yes, put it on the web, but
delete all information from the membership list of the online
version, apart from the names".

Kind regards, and Happy New Year,
Oliver Thinius
info@emodancers.de

Pia Walker schrieb am 29.12.2003:
>I must admit to not understand the reason why an office bearer of any
>association would want to keep his/her name secret to the public -
>surely it
>is nothing to be ashamed of, and if that association wants people to
>join
>them - surely it is in the interest of the association that everyone
>knows
>who is running it - I would not want to be associated with something
>where
>it is difficult to find out who the management is prior to joining.
>
>Another point is that if contact details is not openly available to
>the
>general public, how can you actually join? Who should I as a
>newcomer to a
>district / area contact to find out about what SCD is, if there are
>no
>contact details? How many of the branches/clubs RSCDS and not have
>a
>listing in any public place easily accessible? How can we expect
>people to
>know about us, if we do not advertise?
>
>Pia

Unsolicited Information

Message 37439 · Chris1Ronald · 31 Dec 2003 07:18:32 · Top

Anselm writes: "...But I still get a dozen or two spam messages every day."

I estimate the number I get is around four or five a day. And they're pretty
easy to recognise, because of the weird e-mail addresses they come from.

Perhaps after all I'm getting something for all the money I give to AOL ...!

While I'm on line, I'd like to wish all Strathspey subscribers a great
Hogmanay, and good health and wonderful dancing in a more peaceful world in 2004.

Chris Ronald, New York, 31 December 2003.

RSCDS Matters

Message 37433 · Ron Taylor · 30 Dec 2003 06:48:40 · Top

Well said Pia - and I'm referring to the question about publication of the names of Treasurers. However whilst I haven't trawled through every Branch those I have looked at give the name only of the Treasurer - or have other people got access to another list? However taking my own Branch as an example the name only of the treasurer is shown - no address, telephone number, email contact etc.So first of all how is she liable to receive unsolicited mail either by post or by email, the only contact with her is via the Secretary.
Secondly apart from Branch members how is anyone going to know that she in particular will be going to a Branch function on some unknown date at an unknown location travelling from an unknown address carrying an unknown amount of money and accompanied by an unknown number of people and so make plans to mug her and rob her of a small sum of money. She has a far higher chance of being
mugged coming out of her bank!

Finally if a Treasurer doesn't like his/her name being published then all he/she has to do is write to the Society!

I can see no harm in names being published - and some advantages.

Ron Taylor.
RON29@blueyonder.co.uk

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