strathspey Archive: Dance summaries

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Dance summaries

Message 3573 · Campbell Downie · 10 Feb 1996 10:14:13 · Top

Hi,

I am a new member and I am enjoying the discussions immensely.

I am a teacher in our local Pietermaritzburg Branch of the RSCDS. I have
compiled a set of summaries of almost all the RSCDS dances for use in
crib-sheets.

I am happy to make them available. Are there copy right problems here.
Should people contact me privately rather than putting them on the mailing list?

Regards,

Campbell

Dr CAMPBELL DOWNIE
PO Box 10-1269, Scottsville, 3209 South Africa
e-mail:calm.down@pixie.co.za
Telephone: 0331-961238

Dance summaries

Message 3654 · Irene Van Maarseveen · 21 Feb 1996 13:56:24 · Top

On 10 Feb, Campbell Downie wrote:

> I have compiled a set of summaries of almost all the RSCDS dances
for use in crib-sheets. I am happy to make them available. <

Thanks, Campbell, that's a super offer.

Is there a way we could all pool our crib notes / cheat sheets, to
save everyone the trouble of drawing up their own? Would a datatbase
work for something like that? Or, could they, say, be put on the
Strathspey Web site and updated from time to time?

Would it be better, then, to decide on a "standard" way of writing
crib notes? I guess each person has their own style - and probably
thinks their way is the best :) . Standardising existing crib notes
could mean quite a lot of work, though.

Any ideas?

Irene van Maarseveen
Pretoria, South Africa
ivmaarse@csir.co.za

Dance summaries

Message 3656 · Andrew J. Smith · 21 Feb 1996 15:32:37 · Top

Just before we all upload all kinds of crib sheets and dance summaries,
please note that they all violate the RSCDS (and everyone else's) copyright.
I'm not sure
what the current Headquarters policy on this is, but the whole point of
the pocket books, is so that we have a handy resource. Pilling came about
for the same reason -- but I'm not sure how it fits with copyright.

Perhaps Jim Healy has some better information. Jim? What is the RSCDS
position on this?

*******************************************************************************
Message from:
Andrew J. M. Smith
mstajsx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu
*******************************************************************************

On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Irene Van Maarseveen wrote:

>
> On 10 Feb, Campbell Downie wrote:
>
> > I have compiled a set of summaries of almost all the RSCDS dances
> for use in crib-sheets. I am happy to make them available. <
>
> Thanks, Campbell, that's a super offer.
>
> Is there a way we could all pool our crib notes / cheat sheets, to
> save everyone the trouble of drawing up their own? Would a datatbase
> work for something like that? Or, could they, say, be put on the
> Strathspey Web site and updated from time to time?
>
> Would it be better, then, to decide on a "standard" way of writing
> crib notes? I guess each person has their own style - and probably
> thinks their way is the best :) . Standardising existing crib notes
> could mean quite a lot of work, though.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Irene van Maarseveen
> Pretoria, South Africa
> ivmaarse@csir.co.za
>
>
>

Dance summaries

Message 3658 · Ian Price · 21 Feb 1996 17:18:23 · Top

>Just before we all upload all kinds of crib sheets and dance summaries,
>please note that they all violate the RSCDS (and everyone else's) copyright.

Rubbish!

Reprinting the _full_ instructions as they appear in an RSCDS publication (eg by
Xeroxing) would infringe the RSCDS copyright. Re-writing the instructions in a
short-form or code (particularly in the case of a traditional dance taught by
word-of-mouth, i.e., in a class) involves 'intellectual input' and becomes an
original document in its own right.

-2chter, Ll.B. (Philadelphia)

Dance summaries

Message 3661 · Jim & Marilyn Healy · 21 Feb 1996 19:04:55 · Top

Following on from Campbell Downie's offer of a complete set
of computer readable cribs for the Society's dancesand Irene
van Maarseveen's comments today, a caution.

I don't want to be a party pooper but I wonder whether, given
that Campbell is referring specifically to the Society's dances,
there may be a potential copyright problem here. The question
of cribs is notoriously difficult but given that the Society already
endorses (and sells) Paul Bond's Crib Card system, there
would, at the least, appear to be a conflict. Given, however,
that these are in a different (and IMO, a more useful) medium,
perhaps Campbell should consider sending his cribs in to
the Publications Committee for "endorsement" to the
mutual benefit of all.

For a view on the confusion surrounding copyright and cribs
those of you with Web browsers might like to look at Peter
Hastings memo on the subject at:
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~nsdwww/providing_info/why_password.html

Jim Healy

Dance summaries

Message 3663 · Irene Van Maarseveen · 21 Feb 1996 21:33:06 · Top

About crib-notes and copyright:

Earlier today, I quoted Campbell Downie's offer on 10 Feb to make
available the crib-notes he has compiled. Campbell did raise the
question of whether copyright would be a problem, especially if they
were distributed publicly. I realised after mailing my suggestions
that I should have included that in my quote.

What is the position regarding passing on copyright material
privately instead of publicly (specifically crib-notes, which I
suppose basically should be regarded as copyright)?

Irene van Maarseveen
Pretoria, South Africa
ivmaarse@csir.co.za

Dance summaries

Message 3664 · David Ll. Hills · 21 Feb 1996 23:44:43 · Top

Greetings

At 09:51 96/02/21, Jim & Marilyn Healy wrote:

>
> For a view on the confusion surrounding copyright and cribs
> those of you with Web browsers might like to look at Peter
> Hastings memo on the subject at:
> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~nsdwww/providing_info/why_password.html
>

For those who do not have access to the WWW here is the clear text of the
referenced link
[ line width formatting not under my control :-) ]:

============================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:48:11 +0000 (GMT)
Sender: Peter Hastings <P.Hastings@roe.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Peter Hastings <P.Hastings@roe.ac.uk>;
Subject: Posting Directions on the WWW
To: Ian Thompson <i.m.thompson@ncl.ac.uk>

The NUSCDS Web page exists as a bulletin board for:

1.NUSCDS members.
2.'Scottish University' SCD groups. (Those on the SUSCDF circuit).
3.Anyone wandering around the Web that's interested.

I am in the happy position of being able to produce crib sheets for dances
with considerable ease. For my own use I
produce a crib sheet for every dance I attend. In the past I have, not
regularly, sent hardcopy or disks or both to
group secretaries (as in 2. above). They can then use these as they see fit
- bin them, use them for teaching class
before a dance, use them as a basis for their own cribs, use them
literatim. It seems to me to be a logical extension
to put them where anyone in groups 1&2 can get them.

I feel unable to release them to group 3 for a number of reasons:-

First are the copyright arguments,
It is not clear what the liability of a Web page holder (in
this case Ian Thompson) is in the
event of copyright material being put on his Web page.
I don't know where I stand with regards to copyright as it
is; The copyright for cribs is
absolutely hellish given the number of original authors,
publishers etc. as well as my own
intellectual property rights in writing the precis.

Secondly the feeling on the Strathspey discussion was that the
widespread publishing of any dance
directions could cause publishers to give up printing paper versions
or hike the price to cope with
reduced demand. This would of course hit the vast majority of
Scottish Country Dancers who have no
access to the Net. The general feeling was that, in the absence of
any major advantage to anyone,
directions would not be posted.

I can't guarantee the accuracy of the cribs (I do my best but..).

The guidelines suggested on the Strathspey list were,

Use original instructions if at all possible, buy or borrow these.
Cribs are an aide-memoire, it's better to
teach from the originals.

If you need directions for a couple of dances and you can't find
them/buy them in time then post a call for
help. Plenty of folk will e-mail you instructions.
Dance directions en masse would not be posted.

I have considered all this in the light of the parlous state of student
finances. I want my cribs to be available to
anyone on the SUSCDF circuit; whilst I am happy to distribute hardcopy and
disks to university group members
and to let them have Web access, I do not want the cribs available generally.

Ian Thompson has sent out a general message to the scottish-dance@ncl.ac.uk
e-mail list giving the ID/password
for access to these files on the Web. This allows anyone on the circuit
free access to these cribs. That way I feel I
can fall within the accepted guidelines, but still give my friends on the
SUSCDF circuit all the help I can.

Sorry to ramble on, but I think this explains why Ian, at my request, has
put this information in a secure area.

I would welcome any comments on this from all of you out there on the
scottish-dance list.

cheers

Peter

P.S. A fuller discussion of the pros and cons is available from the
Strathspey dancing e-mail list. Follow the thread Posting Dance Directions

==========================================================================

Dance summaries

Message 3665 · RSCDSSD · 22 Feb 1996 02:10:43 · Top

Sorry Ian, I agree with Anselm and disagree with you. Rewriting dance
instructions is rarely an intellectual effort but rather a quick and
expedient method of reproducing instructions. They are often incorrect and
incomplete. I would not wish to participate in any compilation of such crib
sheets. I have a hard enough time with teachers who teach from Pillings or
other such cribs, much less have them become a standard for dancers.

Haven't we been down this path before?

Marjorie McLaughlin
RSCDS SD@aol.com
San Diego, California

Dance summaries

Message 3681 · ERBRUNKEN · 23 Feb 1996 04:45:04 · Top

I have to agree with Marjorie..... but then I usually do!

A teacher should not teach from crib notes or cheat sheets or whatever we
call them, and it is very disheartening to look around a ballroom floor, as
the MC is briefing the dance, ( a normal custom here ) and see nothing but
groups of people, heads bowed , pouring over cheat sheets, especially when
I'm the MC.

Let us become more independant..... and learn to dance, as opposed to
learning dances.

If you learn the steps and the formations, then listen to the instructions
you can do most dances, excepting maybe 'Drewry types'.

Just my tuppence worth!

Elaine

Dance summaries

Message 3657 · Anselm Lingnau · 21 Feb 1996 16:07:13 · Top

Irene Van Maarseveen <IVMaarse@csir.co.za> writes:

> Is there a way we could all pool our crib notes / cheat sheets, to
> save everyone the trouble of drawing up their own? Would a datatbase
> work for something like that? Or, could they, say, be put on the
> Strathspey Web site and updated from time to time?

There are various problems with this, I believe. Leaving the obvious
problems of copyright aside for a moment, the main problem that I have
with crib sheet collections is that, sooner or later, people will want
to teach dances from the cribs rather than the original instructions.
This usually sort-of works, of course, but it can also go royally wrong.
Over here in Germany, ball programmes are usually accompanied with
Pilling-style crib sheets for the dances, and it turns out that during
each of the last three balls I went to, at least one dance was recapped
and (thus) danced by most of the auditorium in a manner which was roughly
consistent with the crib, but actually quite different from the original
instructions. This begins with giving the wrong sort of hands during a
turn and goes on to include altered phrasing and other things. In the
short term this may not matter, but it turns out that errors on the cribs
get propagated from programme to programme until nobody remembers how the
dance went in the first place!

Consider also that the original instructions for many dances, especially
RSCDS dances, are easily obtainable and reasonably priced, and there is
also the Pilling book. Why would we want to put up secondary versions of
descriptions of the same dances? Now, this is really a religious issue,
but I'd suggest that before we take this any further people should review
the archived discussions on posting dance descriptions to the list.

On the other hand, what I'd love to have available would be something
similar to TACnotes -- extra instructions that cover all the difficult
bits that the originals leave out. But that's another can of worms...

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lingnau@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both,
and deserve neither. --- Thomas Jefferson

Dance summaries *and* Re: Cheatsheets

Message 3710 · briscoe · 26 Feb 1996 14:30:30 · Top

On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Anselm Lingnau wrote:

> ....Now, this is really a religious issue....

Clearly, Anselm was right!

- Mel Briscoe, Alexandria, Virginia

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