strathspey Archive: ceilidh vs SCD

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ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35390 · SMiskoe · 3 Jun 2003 15:58:42 · Top

I am playing for a wedding this coming winter. The bride is American and the
groom Scottish. They want an hour of ceilidh dances for those Scots coming
over for the wedding. This is a comment the bride made about dancing at the
Univ in Glasgow:
The only other thing I would say about dances, is the people who do
know what they are doing will know the informal ceilidh way of dancing,
not the formal Scottish Country Dancing way (ie turns by the arm
replace reels of three and such). There is a big gulf at university
between ceilidh goers and Scottish Country Dance Society members.
We need to work to keep these gulfs from getting too wide.
Cheers,
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord NH USA

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35395 · Oliver Thinius · 4 Jun 2003 09:50:19 · Top

I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
one or two Set dances.

But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
"reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?

Oliver Thinius
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

SMiskoe@aol.com schrieb am 03.06.2003:
>I am playing for a wedding this coming winter. The bride is
>American and the
>groom Scottish. They want an hour of ceilidh dances for those Scots
>coming
>over for the wedding. This is a comment the bride made about
>dancing at the
>Univ in Glasgow:
>The only other thing I would say about dances, is the people who do
>know what they are doing will know the informal ceilidh way of
>dancing,
>not the formal Scottish Country Dancing way (ie turns by the arm
>replace reels of three and such). There is a big gulf at university
>between ceilidh goers and Scottish Country Dance Society members.
>We need to work to keep these gulfs from getting too wide.
>Cheers,
>Sylvia Miskoe, Concord NH USA
>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35396 · Alan Paterson · 4 Jun 2003 09:58:52 · Top

Oliver Thinius wrote:
>
> I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
> dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
> Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
> one or two Set dances.
>
> But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
> standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
> bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
> latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
> "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?

- Dangerous footware
- Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
- Arhythmic motion
- Complete disregard for the music
- Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
- Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)

I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however, each
of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way to
make me want to avoid it.

Alan

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35399 · Pia Walker · 4 Jun 2003 14:11:10 · Top

This is a bit like saying that people who hasnt' taken dance classes of any
kind - should not be seen on a dance-floor at all. And that is a bit
unfair.

People in Europe might not dance a lot of ceidlidh, because (at least in
Denmark- probably elsewhere too) we have been taught SCD from Society
Teachers, who have gone to St Andrews Summerschool to be taught and to take
their exams, and they have had no real knowledge on how the 'real' scot in
scotland dance (OK and before you all grab your keyboards, how many of you
have been to a Scottish Wedding in Scotland with Scottish guests - who are
not members of the RSCDS? Scottish dancing is executed there, but of
course the footware is not pumps - it is what you wear to a wedding - the
uncontrolled pushing and pulling is helping others around after a few drinks
:>) (and it happens in RSCDS classes without the drink too, so does
Arythmic motion, and the expect an unexpected move).

And with regards to how to birl properly - well I have seen plenty RSCDS
dancers who cannot birl for tuppence. So don't blame ceilidh. In my family
of very Proud Scots - I'm the only one who have learned to dance prop'ly,
and I'm the foreigner, they love to dance and I too have fun dancing with
these uninitiated natives.

By the way I met my husband at a scottish function in Denmark, after an
eightsome reel, done RSCDS style - and he asked me if this was a danish
folk-dance!

Surely it is the joy of dancing that counts - the dances are all Scottish,
it is just the dance styles that vary - my only comment ot the American
wedding is - ONLY AN HOUR OF DANCING SCD?

Pia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Paterson" <alan.paterson@paranor.ch>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: ceilidh vs SCD

> Oliver Thinius wrote:
> >
> > I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
> > dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
> > Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
> > one or two Set dances.
> >
> > But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
> > standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
> > bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
> > latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
> > "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?
>
> - Dangerous footware
> - Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
> - Arhythmic motion
> - Complete disregard for the music
> - Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
> - Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)
>
> I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however, each
> of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way to
> make me want to avoid it.
>
> Alan
>
> This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35400 · Alan Paterson · 4 Jun 2003 14:42:40 · Top

Pia Walker wrote:
>
> This is a bit like saying that people who hasnt' taken dance classes of any
> kind - should not be seen on a dance-floor at all. And that is a bit
> unfair.

Sorry Pia, where in my message did I suggest that? Oliver was asking why
"RSCDS-trained" people dislike ceilidh. And I provided my reasons. It is
why *I* dislike it.

>
> People in Europe might not dance a lot of ceidlidh, because (at least in
> Denmark- probably elsewhere too) we have been taught SCD from Society
> Teachers, who have gone to St Andrews Summerschool to be taught and to take
> their exams, and they have had no real knowledge on how the 'real' scot in
> scotland dance (OK and before you all grab your keyboards, how many of you
> have been to a Scottish Wedding in Scotland with Scottish guests - who are
> not members of the RSCDS?

Yes. I have.

I could, possibly, get a wee bit upset here. What makes me (or Jim Healy,
or Ian Brockbanks, or Linda Gaul, or, ...) any less 'real' than someone who
has learnt to dance the 'folk' way?

> Scottish dancing is executed there, but of
> course the footware is not pumps - it is what you wear to a wedding - the
> uncontrolled pushing and pulling is helping others around after a few drinks
> :>) (and it happens in RSCDS classes without the drink too, so does
> Arythmic motion, and the expect an unexpected move).

Exactly. All very unpleasant things - and something I personally wish to
avoid. It's just that it is more prevalent in Ceilidh as there the entire
concept of doing it "properly" just doesn't exist.

>
> And with regards to how to birl properly - well I have seen plenty RSCDS
> dancers who cannot birl for tuppence.

Exactly my point. If it is not taught (and practiced) it becomes highly
dangerous,

> So don't blame ceilidh.

AGAIN. Since ceilidh is neither taught nor practiced (well, not a lot),
lack of control is more predominent.

> In my family
> of very Proud Scots - I'm the only one who have learned to dance prop'ly,
> and I'm the foreigner, they love to dance and I too have fun dancing with
> these uninitiated natives.

Good for you. I have no problems with you doing that. Why do you have
problems with me not doing it?

>
> <wee bit snipped>
>
> Surely it is the joy of dancing that counts

Absolutely. 200% with you.

It's just that I don't get any joy out of something more akin to all-in
wrestling than to dance.

> - the dances are all Scottish,
> it is just the dance styles that vary - my only comment ot the American
> wedding is - ONLY AN HOUR OF DANCING SCD?

<grin>

>
> Pia

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Paterson" <alan.paterson@paranor.ch>
> To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: ceilidh vs SCD
>
>
> > Oliver Thinius wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
> > > dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
> > > Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
> > > one or two Set dances.
> > >
> > > But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
> > > standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
> > > bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
> > > latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
> > > "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?
> >
> > - Dangerous footware
> > - Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
> > - Arhythmic motion
> > - Complete disregard for the music
> > - Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
> > - Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)
> >
> > I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however, each
> > of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way to
> > make me want to avoid it.
> >
> > Alan

Alan

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35404 · Pia Walker · 4 Jun 2003 16:44:23 · Top

Would I want to upset you Alan :>) And sorry If I have, I wasn't making a
personal attack - and the other difference between ceilidh and SCD is that
if you don't want to dance you don't have to - there will be a bar somewhere
you can prop up :>) :>) :>).

I was talking generally - There is a certain notion going around - less
strong these days but still there, that the RSCDS way of doing things is so
much better than anything else, and therefore other things shouldn't exist -
that they are in some way inferior - (I know it happens in other dance forms
as well - even other scottish dance forms). It is this kind of attitude
which weakens an individual danceform, and a lot of people in the RSCDS have
been trying to change it.

And the reasons you are giving have nothing to do with the dancestyle, but
the execution of the dancestyle, and as I was trying to point out - you get
this in RSCDS as well, although we are taught a more structured way of
dancing which appeal to us, but not to all.

With regard to the 'real' people - you, Linda and Jim, have been taught the
RSCDS way, which an awful lot of people haven't. And you can birl :>).

Hope I have mollified you :>)

Pia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Paterson" <alan.paterson@paranor.ch>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: ceilidh vs SCD

> Pia Walker wrote:
> >
> > This is a bit like saying that people who hasnt' taken dance classes of
any
> > kind - should not be seen on a dance-floor at all. And that is a bit
> > unfair.
>
> Sorry Pia, where in my message did I suggest that? Oliver was asking why
> "RSCDS-trained" people dislike ceilidh. And I provided my reasons. It is
> why *I* dislike it.
>
> >
> > People in Europe might not dance a lot of ceidlidh, because (at least in
> > Denmark- probably elsewhere too) we have been taught SCD from Society
> > Teachers, who have gone to St Andrews Summerschool to be taught and to
take
> > their exams, and they have had no real knowledge on how the 'real' scot
in
> > scotland dance (OK and before you all grab your keyboards, how many of
you
> > have been to a Scottish Wedding in Scotland with Scottish guests - who
are
> > not members of the RSCDS?
>
> Yes. I have.
>
> I could, possibly, get a wee bit upset here. What makes me (or Jim Healy,
> or Ian Brockbanks, or Linda Gaul, or, ...) any less 'real' than someone
who
> has learnt to dance the 'folk' way?
>
> > Scottish dancing is executed there, but of
> > course the footware is not pumps - it is what you wear to a wedding -
the
> > uncontrolled pushing and pulling is helping others around after a few
drinks
> > :>) (and it happens in RSCDS classes without the drink too, so does
> > Arythmic motion, and the expect an unexpected move).
>
> Exactly. All very unpleasant things - and something I personally wish to
> avoid. It's just that it is more prevalent in Ceilidh as there the entire
> concept of doing it "properly" just doesn't exist.
>
> >
> > And with regards to how to birl properly - well I have seen plenty RSCDS
> > dancers who cannot birl for tuppence.
>
> Exactly my point. If it is not taught (and practiced) it becomes highly
> dangerous,
>
> > So don't blame ceilidh.
>
> AGAIN. Since ceilidh is neither taught nor practiced (well, not a lot),
> lack of control is more predominent.
>
> > In my family
> > of very Proud Scots - I'm the only one who have learned to dance
prop'ly,
> > and I'm the foreigner, they love to dance and I too have fun dancing
with
> > these uninitiated natives.
>
> Good for you. I have no problems with you doing that. Why do you have
> problems with me not doing it?
>
> >
> > <wee bit snipped>
> >
> > Surely it is the joy of dancing that counts
>
> Absolutely. 200% with you.
>
> It's just that I don't get any joy out of something more akin to all-in
> wrestling than to dance.
>
>
> > - the dances are all Scottish,
> > it is just the dance styles that vary - my only comment ot the American
> > wedding is - ONLY AN HOUR OF DANCING SCD?
>
> <grin>
>
> >
> > Pia
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alan Paterson" <alan.paterson@paranor.ch>
> > To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: ceilidh vs SCD
> >
> >
> > > Oliver Thinius wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
> > > > dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
> > > > Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
> > > > one or two Set dances.
> > > >
> > > > But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the
RSCDS
> > > > standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
> > > > bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
> > > > latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
> > > > "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?
> > >
> > > - Dangerous footware
> > > - Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
> > > - Arhythmic motion
> > > - Complete disregard for the music
> > > - Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
> > > - Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)
> > >
> > > I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however,
each
> > > of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way
to
> > > make me want to avoid it.
> > >
> > > Alan
>
> Alan
>
> This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35405 · Alan Paterson · 4 Jun 2003 16:55:47 · Top

Pia Walker wrote:
>
> Would I want to upset you Alan :>) And sorry If I have, I wasn't making a
> personal attack - and the other difference between ceilidh and SCD is that
> if you don't want to dance you don't have to - there will be a bar somewhere
> you can prop up :>) :>) :>).

Indeed. A "regular" SCD event is much the poorer if it doesn't have such a
thing.

>
> I was talking generally - There is a certain notion going around - less
> strong these days but still there, that the RSCDS way of doing things is so
> much better than anything else, and therefore other things shouldn't exist -
> that they are in some way inferior - (I know it happens in other dance forms
> as well - even other scottish dance forms). It is this kind of attitude
> which weakens an individual danceform, and a lot of people in the RSCDS have
> been trying to change it.
>
> And the reasons you are giving have nothing to do with the dancestyle, but
> the execution of the dancestyle, and as I was trying to point out - you get
> this in RSCDS as well, although we are taught a more structured way of
> dancing which appeal to us, but not to all.

My point completely. More or less.

One other difference is the idea of attending classes and thus having a
concept of "dancing better" which one can aspire to (or not as one wishes).

>
> With regard to the 'real' people - you, Linda and Jim, have been taught the
> RSCDS way, which an awful lot of people haven't. And you can birl :>).

On a good day.

>
> Hope I have mollified you :>)

Yup.

Alan (middle name Mollie) Paterson

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35416 · ron.mackey · 5 Jun 2003 00:05:26 · Top


> > With regard to the 'real' people - you, Linda and Jim, have been taught the
> > RSCDS way, which an awful lot of people haven't. And you can birl :>).
> Pia
> On a good day.
>
> >
> > Hope I have mollified you :>)
>
> Yup.
>
> Alan (middle name Mollie) Paterson

You are a lucky chap, Alan. Only the chosen few have that
pleasure!!!!! :>)

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35401 · Bryan McAlister · 4 Jun 2003 15:37:41 · Top

In article <3EDDA6C0.922537DF@paranor.ch>, Alan Paterson
<alan.paterson@paranor.ch> writes
>Oliver Thinius wrote:
>>
>> I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
>> dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
>> Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
>> one or two Set dances.
>>
>> But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
>> standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
>> bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
>> latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
>> "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?
>
>- Dangerous footware
>- Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
>- Arhythmic motion
>- Complete disregard for the music
>- Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
>- Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)
>
>I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however, each
>of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way to
>make me want to avoid it.
>
>Alan
This is totally unfair. Comparing 30+ years of regular playing for
Ceilidhs and 10 years of regular Country dancing. There is no comparison
- Country Dancing in my experience has far more injuries and must be
considered more dangerous.
As regards footwear - normal shoes are pretty safe - though if someone
goes onto a ceilidh floor with soft pumps they might get the odd knock.
However, while playing at weddings it is extremely common to see women
taking off high heeled shoes and dancing bare foot or in tights. They
dont usually get injured.
Disregard for music, arrhythmic motion etc is an initial problem.
Typically I find that at the start of a dance e.g. The Flying Scotsman
it is shambolic - everyone is late, unsynchronised etc.etc. After about
4 repeats its all going like clockwork.

Country dancing also suffers uncontrolled pushing, arrhythmic movements
etc. - sometimes we call them beginner's classes, sometimes its just
poor dancing but we put up with that .

Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
thing and join with the masses. I can think of experienced dancers who
had to be reminded, after they protested at an inclusion of the Dashing
White Sergeant in a dance programme, that it an RSCDS published dance
and therefore it was permitted for Country Dancers to take part in it.
We have a name for these people in Scotland - they are called Wxxxxrs.
--
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Email bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35402 · Alan Paterson · 4 Jun 2003 16:20:06 · Top

Bryan McAlister wrote:
>
> In article <3EDDA6C0.922537DF@paranor.ch>, Alan Paterson
> <alan.paterson@paranor.ch> writes
> >Oliver Thinius wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree to 100 percent - many SCD dancers in Germany dislike Ceilidh
> >> dance and do not want to do it. But those who have never danced
> >> Scottish are more easily to catch with Ceilidh Workshops containing
> >> one or two Set dances.
> >>
> >> But why is it so? Ceilidh is probably more traditional than the RSCDS
> >> standards of moving, and there is more to it than Gay Gordons, St.
> >> bernhard's Waltz, Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow (the
> >> latter are regarded as Ceilidh by some people over here). Why have
> >> "reputated Country Dancers" got objections against Ceilidh Dance?
> >
> >- Dangerous footware
> >- Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
> >- Arhythmic motion
> >- Complete disregard for the music
> >- Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
> >- Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)
> >
> >I accept that this is painting it somewhat black and white, however, each
> >of the above features of ceilidh dance as it is today act in some way to
> >make me want to avoid it.
> >
> >Alan

> This is totally unfair.

I REPEAT (and yes, I do mean to be shouting).

I expressed the reasons why I (yes ME, MYSELF, I, Alan Paterson, born 1953
Bellshill) do not like ceilidh dancing.

Anyone who does - that's fine by me.

Alan

> We have a name for these people in Scotland - they are called Wxxxxrs.

and I REALLY hope that there is nothing implied by that.

Alan

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35415 · ron.mackey · 5 Jun 2003 00:05:24 · Top

>
> > This is totally unfair.
>
> I REPEAT (and yes, I do mean to be shouting).
>
> I expressed the reasons why I (yes ME, MYSELF, I, Alan Paterson,
> born 1953 Bellshill) do not like ceilidh dancing.
>
> Anyone who does - that's fine by me.
>
> Alan
>
> > We have a name for these people in Scotland - they are called Wxxxxrs.
>
> and I REALLY hope that there is nothing implied by that.
>
> Alan

I must say that I took to dancing the RSCDS way because that is what
I was introduced to after having done the 'Wedding' style and thought
very little of it. My experience of it was mainly roughhouse!
If I had not gone to the club where the dancing was RSCDS I would
have lost over 50 years of unalloyed (well... mostly) pleasure.
I now know that the other style can be most enjoyable but I'd rather
not try it when heavy drinking is going on!

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35403 · Alan Paterson · 4 Jun 2003 16:22:01 · Top

Bryan McAlister wrote:
>
> Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
> limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
> thing and join with the masses.

Hmmm.

~10-20 dances -> the "vulgar thing"

over 11,000 dances -> a limited spectrum

Most peculiar.

Alan

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35439 · Oliver Thinius · 5 Jun 2003 13:21:04 · Top

Three speeds - Strathspey, Jig, Reel in Country dancing

Everything from March, Strahtspey, Reel, Jig up to Tango and Samba in
Ceilidh dance - limited spectrum?

By the way, apart from having passed the Teachers Certificate
Examination some years ago and teaching a Scottish Country Dance
Class regularly I am as ignorant as to attend Ceilidhs when I come
across them every now and then in Scotland (adapting to the common
footwear there) and I also find pleasure in an occasional Quickstep,
Tango or "English" Waltz. Ain't I heretic ;-) ?

Oliver Thinius
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

Alan Paterson schrieb am 04.06.2003:
>Bryan McAlister wrote:
>>
>> Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
>> limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the
>vulgar
>> thing and join with the masses.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>~10-20 dances -> the "vulgar thing"
>
>over 11,000 dances -> a limited spectrum
>
>Most peculiar.
>
>Alan
>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35440 · Alan Paterson · 5 Jun 2003 13:40:15 · Top

Oliver Thinius wrote:
>
> Three speeds - Strathspey, Jig, Reel in Country dancing

March exists here as well.

>
> Everything from March, Strahtspey, Reel, Jig up to Tango and Samba in
> Ceilidh dance - limited spectrum?

Yes.

You're mixing up two concepts here:

- Dances with a recognizable Scottish style which will be danced at a
"ceilidh" event.

- Dances which may conceivably be danced at a "ceilidh" event.

I stand by my statement.

Alan

> Alan Paterson schrieb am 04.06.2003:
> >Bryan McAlister wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
> >> limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the
> >vulgar
> >> thing and join with the masses.
> >
> >Hmmm.
> >
> >~10-20 dances -> the "vulgar thing"
> >
> >over 11,000 dances -> a limited spectrum
> >
> >Most peculiar.
> >
> >Alan
> >

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35445 · Pia Walker · 5 Jun 2003 18:20:30 · Top

Nah! I teach the stuff (ceilidh)! I will probably be struck off! Oh and
I have been to the occasional belly-dancing class - now who can beat that
:>) Oliver?

Pia

By the way, apart from having passed the Teachers Certificate
Examination some years ago and teaching a Scottish Country Dance
Class regularly I am as ignorant as to attend Ceilidhs when I come
across them every now and then in Scotland (adapting to the common
footwear there) and I also find pleasure in an occasional Quickstep,
Tango or "English" Waltz. Ain't I heretic ;-) ?

Oliver Thinius
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

Alan Paterson schrieb am 04.06.2003:
>Bryan McAlister wrote:
>>
>> Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
>> limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the
>vulgar
>> thing and join with the masses.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>~10-20 dances -> the "vulgar thing"
>
>over 11,000 dances -> a limited spectrum
>
>Most peculiar.
>
>Alan
>

This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35466 · Oliver Thinius · 6 Jun 2003 13:46:28 · Top

Sorry Pia,

I've got a wide waist, but belly-dancing? Not for me...

Oliver
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

Pia Walker schrieb am 05.06.2003:

----------<snip>-----------
Nah! I teach the stuff (ceilidh)! I will probably be struck off!
Oh and
I have been to the occasional belly-dancing class - now who can beat
that
:>) Oliver?

Pia
----------<snip>-----------

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35417 · ron.mackey · 5 Jun 2003 00:05:28 · Top

I can think of experienced
> dancers who had to be reminded, after they protested at an
> inclusion of the Dashing White Sergeant in a dance programme, that
> it an RSCDS published dance and therefore it was permitted for
> Country Dancers to take part in it. We have a name for these people
> in Scotland - they are called Wxxxxrs.
-- Bryan McAlister B Arch
> RIBA ARIAS Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk Email
> bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625

Brian, Why are you afraid of the word Workers? :>) I know that
work is a four lettered word but really.....?

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35420 · SallenNic · 5 Jun 2003 02:01:48 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 1:38:49 pm, Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk writes:

<< Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
thing and join with the masses. >>

Hear,hear - well said Bryan. There are plenty of broad mined SCDers (Linda
Gaul, whose name has already cropped up, for instance), but far too many who
declare their interest to be "our Country Dancing", and who will state quite
baldly that is the sole extent of their interest in dancing - sad.
Surely if one enjoys dancing there is pleasure to be derived from a foray
occasionally into other forms of dance?

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35421 · SallenNic · 5 Jun 2003 02:03:38 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 2:45:44 pm, piawalke@nascr.net writes:

<< I was talking generally - There is a certain notion going around - less

strong these days but still there, that the RSCDS way of doing things is so

much better than anything else, and therefore other things shouldn't exist -

that they are in some way inferior - (I know it happens in other dance forms

as well - even other scottish dance forms). It is this kind of attitude

which weakens an individual danceform, and a lot of people in the RSCDS have

been trying to change it.>>

Wise words, indeed.

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35423 · Mike Briggs · 5 Jun 2003 02:30:17 · Top

There is apparently a fairly close association of booze with ceilidh
dancing and (according to at least one person) with SCD. This brought
to mind the old saying that drink is the curse of the w***ing classes.

Mike

--
-----------------------------------------------
Norma Briggs Voice 608 835 0914
Michael J Briggs Fax 608 835 0924
BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
1519 Storytown Road Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
-----------------------------------------------
www.briggslawoffice.com
-----------------------------------------------

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35424 · SallenNic · 5 Jun 2003 02:50:46 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 1:38:49 pm, Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk writes:

<< Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
thing and join with the masses. >>

Hear,hear - well said Bryan. There are plenty of broad mined SCDers (Linda
Gaul, whose name has already cropped up, for instance), but far too many who
declare their interest to be "our Country Dancing", and who will state quite
baldly that is the sole extent of their interest in dancing - sad.
Surely if one enjoys dancing there is pleasure to be derived from a foray
occasionally into other forms of dance?

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35425 · SallenNic · 5 Jun 2003 02:52:36 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 2:45:44 pm, piawalke@nascr.net writes:

<< I was talking generally - There is a certain notion going around - less

strong these days but still there, that the RSCDS way of doing things is so

much better than anything else, and therefore other things shouldn't exist -

that they are in some way inferior - (I know it happens in other dance forms

as well - even other scottish dance forms). It is this kind of attitude

which weakens an individual danceform, and a lot of people in the RSCDS have

been trying to change it.>>

Wise words, indeed.

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35426 · Rebecca Sager · 5 Jun 2003 04:25:02 · Top

No no Mike, that's backwards. Everybody knows work is the curse of the
drinking class.

Becky

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:30:17 -0500 Norma or Mike Briggs
<brigglaw@execpc.com> writes:
> There is apparently a fairly close association of booze with ceilidh
>
> dancing and (according to at least one person) with SCD. This
> brought
> to mind the old saying that drink is the curse of the w***ing
> classes.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------
> Norma Briggs Voice 608 835 0914
> Michael J Briggs Fax 608 835 0924
> BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
> 1519 Storytown Road Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
> -----------------------------------------------
> www.briggslawoffice.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35428 · Chris1Ronald · 5 Jun 2003 05:39:16 · Top

Who said anything about work?

I must've missed something.... :-)

Chris (New York, but born and bred in the UK)

PS I got a good laugh out of Brian's posting on this.

PPS On a serious note, I feel that the discussion on this topic is missing a
point. That is, there are horses for courses. The people who enjoy RSCDS-style
dancing tend to be people who like precision, such as mathematicians (mea
culpa), scientists, librarians and architects. Whereas those who prefer ceilidh
dancing may well find precision tedious or worse. So shouldn't we just accept
that dancers have different personalities and different preferences, rather
than being judgmental about the behaviour of one or the other group?

PPPS. I like contra and ceilidh too.

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35431 · Bryan McAlister · 5 Jun 2003 10:01:17 · Top

In article <127.2ae27382.2c101558@aol.com>, Chris1Ronald@aol.com writes
>Who said anything about work?
>
>I must've missed something.... :-)
>
>Chris (New York, but born and bred in the UK)
>
>PS I got a good laugh out of Brian's posting on this.
>
>PPS On a serious note, I feel that the discussion on this topic is missing a
>point. That is, there are horses for courses. The people who enjoy RSCDS-style
>dancing tend to be people who like precision, such as mathematicians (mea
>culpa), scientists, librarians and architects. Whereas those who prefer
>ceilidh
>dancing may well find precision tedious or worse. So shouldn't we just accept
>that dancers have different personalities and different preferences, rather
>than being judgmental about the behaviour of one or the other group?
>
>PPPS. I like contra and ceilidh too.
Precision! Architects??? Well at least he didn't add Builders to the
list.

In point of fact there is a small class of Architects who manage to
exist entirely on theoretical projects and who never choose to build
anything in the real world. Most of the rest of us ignore them and find
their occasional jargon filled diatribes incomprehensible.

Linlithgow Country Dance Club is having a Marches Dance on Friday 13th
June in Burgh Halls, Linlithgow at 7.30, Admission £5.
There will be both Country Dances and Ceilidh dances and admission is
open to Dancers, friends, family and the general public.

The annual Scotch Hop programme should be available by now at
www.scotchhop.co.uk - 6 programmes of mixed Country and Ceilidh during
July, August and September

Live in the Real World.
--
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Email bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625

ceilidh vs SCD/precision

Message 35452 · ron.mackey · 6 Jun 2003 01:09:07 · Top

> From: Chris1Ronald@aol.com
> The people who enjoy RSCDS-style dancing tend to be people who like precision,
> such as mathematicians (mea culpa), scientists, librarians and
> architects.

And dancers? :~)
What kind of class/club is it where you get this precision??? I
don't really enjoy dancing where precision is a main theme. It should
come about because all are dancing the same figures to the same music
but in a social athmosphere too much accent on it (like covering)
_can_ produce very stilted performance.
Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

ceilidh vs SCD/precision

Message 35455 · Anselm Lingnau · 6 Jun 2003 02:45:22 · Top

ron.mackey@mail.btinternet.com writes:

> What kind of class/club is it where you get this precision??? I
> don't really enjoy dancing where precision is a main theme. It should
> come about because all are dancing the same figures to the same music

Right. This is why you're practicing it. In the best of all possible
worlds it would all happen by itself, but aren't we all working on
making it happen even so, without thinking about it too much, or having
a teacher nag us about it time and time again, so we can do it not just
in class but also in social dancing? After all, the point of going to a
class is to learn to be able to dance with less effort in a social
setting. (Well, yes, some people want to meet their friends, too.)

> but in a social athmosphere too much accent on it (like covering)
> _can_ produce very stilted performance.

I think you can be as social as you can be with a high degree of
precision. It helps a lot with sociability when you can control your
dancing so that you don't rush into other people's sets out of sheer
exuberance, or kick the heels of the person behind you when you're in
the centre in a Petronella figure (I've seen more of this than I care
to remember -- talk about Ceilidh dancing being dangerous ...).

Now precision is mostly a lower-body thing, and sociability, for the
most part, begins from the waist up, so the two aren't mutually exclusive.
And I, for one, much prefer (say) a well-covered and -phrased strathspey
poussette to a wishy-washy one, especially in social dancing. The surprise
when it does happen is such a thrill ;^)

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau .......................................... anselm@strathspey.org
The best way to get a good idea is to get a lot of ideas. -- Linus Pauling

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35454 · ron.mackey · 6 Jun 2003 01:09:10 · Top

> There is apparently a fairly close association of booze with ceilidh
> dancing and (according to at least one person) with SCD. This
> brought to mind the old saying that drink is the curse of the
> w***ing classes.
>
> Mike

Oh, yes. Very good, Mike! :))
Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35463 · SallenNic · 6 Jun 2003 12:02:16 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 1:38:49 pm, Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk writes:

<< Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
thing and join with the masses. >>

Hear,hear - well said Bryan. There are plenty of broad mined SCDers (Linda
Gaul, whose name has already cropped up, for instance), but far too many who
declare their interest to be "our Country Dancing", and who will state quite
baldly that is the sole extent of their interest in dancing - sad.
Surely if one enjoys dancing there is pleasure to be derived from a foray
occasionally into other forms of dance?

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35464 · SallenNic · 6 Jun 2003 12:02:16 · Top

In a message dated 4/6/03 2:45:44 pm, piawalke@nascr.net writes:

<< I was talking generally - There is a certain notion going around - less

strong these days but still there, that the RSCDS way of doing things is so

much better than anything else, and therefore other things shouldn't exist -

that they are in some way inferior - (I know it happens in other dance forms

as well - even other scottish dance forms). It is this kind of attitude

which weakens an individual danceform, and a lot of people in the RSCDS have

been trying to change it.>>

Wise words, indeed.

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35430 · Bryan McAlister · 5 Jun 2003 10:01:17 · Top

In article <4b.2f629c7e.2c0fe26a@aol.com>, SallenNic@aol.com writes
>
>In a message dated 4/6/03 1:38:49 pm, Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk writes:
>
><< Is it not that Country dancers have developed an interest in a very
>limited spectrum of Scottish Dancing and dont choose to do the vulgar
>thing and join with the masses. >>
>
>Hear,hear - well said Bryan. There are plenty of broad mined SCDers (Linda
>Gaul, whose name has already cropped up, for instance), but far too many who
>declare their interest to be "our Country Dancing", and who will state quite
>baldly that is the sole extent of their interest in dancing - sad.
> Surely if one enjoys dancing there is pleasure to be derived from a foray
>occasionally into other forms of dance?
Interestingly, I can think of some fairly proper Scottish Country
Dancers who no longer talk of encouraging new dancers but who are now
beginning to talk VERY seriously about preserving Country dancing as the
old dancers die off.
Ceilidh dancing doesnt seem to have this problem.
--
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Email bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35438 · Pia Walker · 5 Jun 2003 11:25:50 · Top

I have just had the best laugh of the day, and being a well-brought up lady,
the penny just dropped!!!!!!! Thanks Ron

Pia

We have a name for these people
> > in Scotland - they are called Wxxxxrs.
> -- Bryan McAlister B Arch
> > RIBA ARIAS Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk Email
> > bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625
>
> Brian, Why are you afraid of the word Workers? :>) I know that
> work is a four lettered word but really.....?
>
> Happy Dancing
> Cheers :)
> Ron
>
>
> Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
> 39, Grove Park Road,
> Mottingham
> London SE9 4NS
>
> This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

This e-mail was scanned by NASCR Antivirus.

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35398 · Bryan McAlister · 4 Jun 2003 14:01:37 · Top

In article <1a6.158adf35.2c0e038e@aol.com>, SMiskoe@aol.com writes
>I am playing for a wedding this coming winter. The bride is American and the
>groom Scottish. They want an hour of ceilidh dances for those Scots coming
>over for the wedding. This is a comment the bride made about dancing at the
>Univ in Glasgow:
>The only other thing I would say about dances, is the people who do
>know what they are doing will know the informal ceilidh way of dancing,
>not the formal Scottish Country Dancing way (ie turns by the arm
>replace reels of three and such). There is a big gulf at university
>between ceilidh goers and Scottish Country Dance Society members.
>We need to work to keep these gulfs from getting too wide.
>Cheers,
>Sylvia Miskoe, Concord NH USA
The gulf exists and it is tragic. Flett notes that in times past there
were a half dozen or so dances that were widely known in various parts
of the country - If my memory serves me correct they included
Petronella, Flowers of Edinburgh, Deil amang the Tailors and a few
others. You certainly couldnt pull these out at a Ceilidh or Wedding
and expect everyone to leap onto the floor today.

Something completely different - Yesterday morning there was a snippet
on Radio Scotland about the old Dancing Masters from the area north of
the Tay - It included the tale of one of these who had a lifelong
ambition to get on the BBC as the Scots music they played wasnt Scots
enough!

--
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Email bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Mobile: 07732 600160 Fax: 0870 052 7625

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35406 · Blain Nelson · 4 Jun 2003 17:08:19 · Top

SMiskoe@aol.com wrote:
> I am playing for a wedding this coming winter. The bride is American and the
> groom Scottish. They want an hour of ceilidh dances for those Scots coming
> over for the wedding. This is a comment the bride made about dancing at the
> Univ in Glasgow:
> The only other thing I would say about dances, is the people who do
> know what they are doing will know the informal ceilidh way of dancing,
> not the formal Scottish Country Dancing way (ie turns by the arm
> replace reels of three and such). There is a big gulf at university
> between ceilidh goers and Scottish Country Dance Society members.
> We need to work to keep these gulfs from getting too wide.

I'm not a RSCDS member. Someday I might be -- I'm not opposed to it, I
just don't see a point in it for me right now.

I enjoy ceilidh dancing. I also enjoy SCD. I also enjoy contradance.
I also enjoy ECD. I'm involving more of these in my life (two
contradances a month, and I'm thinking about hitting ECDs every few
months, now that I've found where they are in my area).

I'm doing them for the same reasons I'm doing SCD:
1. It's good exercise (I'm diabetic, and this is important).
2. It's a ton of fun (I could satisfy the first criteria on my exercise
bike).
3. The people are very nice.

I've mentioned to some of my SCD friends that I've taken up contradance,
and had one who looked concerned that I was going to give up SCD for
contra. I'm not going to -- there is what I call the "puzzle" aspect of
SCD which is much greater than the puzzle aspect of contra, and that is
going to keep me interested a lot longer. OTOH, with contra, I'm active
much longer in a dance for a longer time, and interact with more people,
and it's easier on my joints (which is a good thing).

Around here, we've got two ceilidhs a year. It was at the first one I
went to that I made the decision to do SCD. In fact, there were ceilidh
dances going on at the first dance I went to a year ago that opened me
up to the idea of doing it, much of it because of the acceptance and
tolerance the more experienced folks had for me as a beginner.
Interestingly enough, at the second ceilidh of the year we had this big
influx of beginners (one of the SCD teachers teaches a class at the
college, and strongly encourages her classes to come to the ceilidh and
bring their friends, so we had quite a few folks there who knew (after
three months of class) less than I did. And I did find it a bit of a
strain to be in a set doing Flowers of Edinburgh when my daughter and I
were the only ones who had done it before, so I can understand how those
with more experience than I might find this a bit of a nuisance.

To me, there is no wall between SCD and ceilidh dancing -- they're just
different parts of the same thing. Some may have a preference for one
more than the other, and that's cool with me, but they really go
together pretty well IMO.

> Cheers,
> Sylvia Miskoe, Concord NH USA
>

Take care,
Blain

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35411 · Jim Healy · 4 Jun 2003 21:56:09 · Top

Greetings!

Alan Paterson sets out his reasons for not wanting to do Ceilidh Dancing as:

>- Dangerous footware
>- Uncontrolled pushing/pulling
>- Arhythmic motion
>- Complete disregard for the music
>- Requirement to continually have to expect an unexpected move
>- Unpractised moves (how many actually "learn" how to birl properly?)

Just for balance, the committed Ceildh dancer's corresponding list of why
he/she has no interest in RSCDS style dancing would read something like:

Dangerous footware (or, at least, inviting injury to the dancer)
Inflexible and unyielding approach to 'geographical' errors (the 'tut-tut'
brigade)
Being shoved around by more 'experienced' dancers
Complete disregard for the music and, particularly, the musicians
An opinion that there is such a thing as perfect footwork
An obsession with performance dancing
A requirement that dancing be joyless and po-faced

A caricature - yes, as Alan's was intended to be. The two views are,
however, what underlies much of the antipathy. I wrote what seems like years
ago on Strathspey, however, that it is down to the RSCDS dancers to change
the attitude. Those of us who can do RSCDS can also do Ceilidh, it is not
necessarily the case that those who do Ceilidh can do RSCDS. We need to go
out and show them that their caricature of us is wrong and some of us need
to learn that you can have fun while being boisterous. Just occasionally,
leave the ghillies in the cupboard and birl.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
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ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35413 · SMiskoe · 4 Jun 2003 22:50:00 · Top

Pia asks "only an hour of Scottish dancing?" . Well apparently there are
many folks coming who dont dance and the idea is to have an hour for those who
really like Scottish dancing followed by the DJ who will play music for the
whole party.
Sylvia

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35433 · Helen P. · 5 Jun 2003 10:01:23 · Top

Silly peoples! ;-)

Go ceilidh dancing occasionally, have fun, and bring some of the folks back
to try SCD with us!

I mean, could you ask for much better potential recruits than those who
already like Scottish and Dancing together?

-- Helen (MD USA)
who enjoys ceilidh, but only in small doses

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35449 · Jock McVlug · 6 Jun 2003 00:06:49 · Top

This is how I learned about and got interested in "Scottish Country Dancing"
My wife and I first started to attend 'Old Tyme Dancing' where it was
actually more like Ceilidh dancing (Dashing White Sergeant, St Bernards
Waltz, Strip the Willow etc.) Then as I wanted to do more of the Reels and
Jigs and heard about the 'Scottish Country Dancing Class', went there with
the proviso that if it was that up on your toes stuff, .... forget it! The
teacher was such a lovely dancer (perfect in technique and beautiful to
watch) I was HOOKED. (and that up on your toes stuff was not that difficult
after all) Must not forget to mention that the music played a big part in
the attraction!
Since then, I have become the 'teacher' and for the last 5 years or so
have by request of a group of people who attend Burns Supper taught 'Ceilidh
Dances' for about 1 hour of the last 2 classes before the Burns Supper. (I
also brief the dances at the Burns Supper). The reason given for the request
for 'lessons' was that they wanted to have some idea of how it should be
done. They are really pleased when the music and their set finish (dancing)
at the same time.
So I think that some pertinent points are:
1. Ceilidh Dancing is good in that it arouses interest in the dances and
dancing.
2. 'Beautiful Dancing' does attract other people into dancing (Hurrah for
technique and the RSCDS!).
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen P." <leap@mindspring.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: ceilidh vs SCD

> Silly peoples! ;-)
>
> Go ceilidh dancing occasionally, have fun, and bring some of the folks
back
> to try SCD with us!
>
> I mean, could you ask for much better potential recruits than those who
> already like Scottish and Dancing together?
>
> -- Helen (MD USA)
> who enjoys ceilidh, but only in small doses
>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35442 · John Chambers · 5 Jun 2003 16:24:06 · Top

Helen writes:
| Silly peoples! ;-)
|
| Go ceilidh dancing occasionally, have fun, and bring some of the folks back
| to try SCD with us!
|
| I mean, could you ask for much better potential recruits than those who
| already like Scottish and Dancing together?

A number of people hereabouts (Boston, Mass, USA) use this
strategy quite consciously. When they notice newcomers at
the RSCDS dances who are having problems, they suggest that
maybe they should first try the closely-related contra
dances, which don't require quite as much expertise to be
enjoyable. Meanwhile, they also go to contra dances, and
when they notice people who show symptoms of being a bit
bored with it all, they suggest that maybe Scottish dances
might be more enjoyable. They effectively treat SCD as a
sort of advanced contra dancing, which it really is. There
are also English dance sessions that fit in here somewhere.

We might notice that the people who do this are regulars at
both kinds of dancing, so obviously they don't consider
either to be "better" than the other. They just recognize
that SCD is more intricate, and requires some significant
study before one can really enjoy it fully. This is neither
good nor bad, just different.

I'd think that the same attitude towards Scottish (or
Irish) ceilidh dancing would be most appropriate. They are
all branches of the same dance tradition, after all.

Some of the SCD teachers also like to point out that the
RSCDS style is not properly "folk" dancing. Rather, it is
what the Scottish upper crust did with the native folk
dancing. Of course, it has long since gotten out of the
control of the UCTs, and all sorts of hoi polloi are doing
it these days. The reason is that a lot of people from all
background find it enjoyable, for whatever reason. They do
tend to be the more mathematically enclined people, who
enjoy doing things that entail a significant mental
challenge.

I've sometimes wondered how many SCDers also work crossword
puzzles ...

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35443 · Jan E Rudge · 5 Jun 2003 16:31:16 · Top

John wrote...
<I've sometimes wondered how many SCDers also work crossword
puzzles ...>

I do, for one!!

Jan

(not a mathematician, but a linguist turned computer programmer so
something of a perfectionist)

Beaconsfield, UK

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35444 · Melanie Pratt · 5 Jun 2003 16:37:47 · Top

John wrote:

I've sometimes wondered how many SCDers also work crossword
puzzles ...

I am a crossword puzzle fanatic, growing up with a father who is a math
whiz (I get by), but I love words. My Dad taught me to work the puzzles
in ink and be sure of my answer. As a result, I don't often make an error.

Melanie the Seanachie
Columbus, Ohio

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 35470 · Colleen Putt · 6 Jun 2003 16:08:26 · Top

Me, too! I've been doing the New York Times Sunday puzzle (in ink) for more
than 20 years now.
Cheers,
Colleen
Bedford Nova Scotia

> John wrote:
>
> I've sometimes wondered how many SCDers also work crossword
> puzzles ...
>
> I am a crossword puzzle fanatic, growing up with a father who is a math
> whiz (I get by), but I love words. My Dad taught me to work the puzzles
> in ink and be sure of my answer. As a result, I don't often make an error.
>
> Melanie the Seanachie
> Columbus, Ohio
>
>
>

ceilidh vs SCD

Message 36472 · Richard Goss · 6 Sep 2003 19:51:43 · Top

Sorry for butting in late but in the process of catching up on over 1000 postings, I have separated all but 250 that parcitularly interest me this being one of them. I am commenting in a separate file organized as per original post.

June 3 [Brian]

1. This topic should be celeidh vs RSCDS as there are still country dances danced in Scotland that started there and never left, in addition to country dances that became Scottish when the RSCDS coined the term. When one says SCD it suggests that thos dances danced in longways formation have less right to be SCD than those of the RSCDS. SCD by our definition did not exist before WWII.

2. By not Scottish enough, really means not fitting the definition of the [R]SCDS.

June 4 [Oliver]

Celeidh dancing <is> more traditional since the present "SCD" is ...

a. only since WWII, and

b. if old, based on reconstructed texts, or

c. if new, composed by contemps.

June 4 [Pia]

I agree, too many people who see difference have to qualify that difference as good or bad. I happen to like the structure and predictablility of RSCDS dances. At the same time, if I went to a wedding in Scotland where the majority of the guests were not RSCDS trained dancers, I would prefer that the majority, if not all, of the dances were of the celeidh type. So good or bad is a matter of time and place and not an absolute definition that would hold in all situations.

June 4 [Anselm]

While I agree with partially, again this discussion is confusing two types of dances with the same word, as a result...

a. I agree with you regarding the "round the room", twosomes dancing polkas and schottisches.

b. I disagree with the longways duple minors common to both sides of the border which fit into the UK longways dance tradition, long before the [R]SCDS.

c. Foursome reel fits into both pockets. Yes, it is the oldest of those mentioned by far. At the same time, it has had its "gene splice" in that modern Highland dancing was really invented/standardized in 1953, long after the RSCDS had al ready published its "Foursome" reel. Here I further disagree, in that in the late 70´s to early 80´s I was filming dancing at village celeidhs around Scotland (tapes in the School of Scottish Studies, Edinburgh). The trend, as I will explain below, was that those with name bands usually did not have a foursome reel, while those with ad hoc bands often did. The difference was often the size of the event, as in one case members of the Jimmy Shand family were among the musicians in both cases (In Gifferton [Fife] they did a foursome in civies, in Letham (Shand charity event for Down Syndrome kids), I saw one one time (of several visits) done in highland dress.

June 4 [Jim]

Good point. Actually both types are dangerous to the uninitiated outsider.

June 4 [Becky]

One could turn this around and say that "tea" is the curse of the dancing class. Why is it that in my day at St Andrews, so many dancers went to a hotel dance in Pitlochery where there was drink in the bar while the "wee Mairis and Alastairs felt they had to dance at University Hall. There are not many bars near Younger Hall, but in my day, the "Castle" and even the "Crit" had an SCD population during the dances over which others had to fight for tickets.

June 4 [Oliver]

The only strathspey one commonly hears at celeidhs is in foursome. Longways strathspeys were pretty much invented by the RSCDS at the present speed. Moneymusk at border and English celdidhs is done in a very fast 4:4 time, closer to reel than our strathspey.

June 4 [Bryan]

Ceilidh recruits easier than RSCDS because of the amount of training necessary to get through a ball. At the same time, this is a current RSCDS problem in that often ball programs are designed for those who see an RSCDS dance as a strictly dancing event with very little sociability except by the numbers.

R Goss

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