strathspey Archive: jazz shoes

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jazz shoes

Message 34426 · Volleyballjerry · 11 Mar 2003 17:01:36 · Top

I was about to say much the same (as Helen), but while I was thinking about
how to phrase it, she beat me to it. Given that Helen has already been quite
direct, I won't hesitate to clearly second her comments: that jazz shoes
really don't belong in SCD at all.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

jazz shoes

Message 34427 · Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov · 11 Mar 2003 18:24:11 · Top

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 Volleyballjerry@aol.com wrote:

> I was about to say much the same (as Helen), but while I was thinking about
> how to phrase it, she beat me to it. Given that Helen has already been quite
> direct, I won't hesitate to clearly second her comments: that jazz shoes
> really don't belong in SCD at all.
>
> Robb Quint
> Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

Oh come on now! Jazz shoes doen't work for everyone (I also have problems
with getting bruises on insides of my ankles from the heel of my shoe
hitting when I close in third), but some people don't have this problem,
and find that jazz shoes, which lace up the foot more like a regular shoe,
provide more support or simply fit better. I know a few dancers who,
despite trying several brands and styles of ghillie, can't find one that
fits properly. Not only that, they are a lot cheaper than ghillies.

As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be pointed
and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably and
with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?

--Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, MN USA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
ldfs@bigfoot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

jazz shoes

Message 34428 · Pia Walker · 11 Mar 2003 18:52:45 · Top

Each to their own - I would say - however, if this is jazz shoes with rubber
soles, I would just take care that they don't "stick" when you want to
glide - the fall can be quite spectacular.

I like a small heel on my shoe when I go to dances and balls and if my feet
are extremely tired (they seem to always be so) - I have bought a split sole
ballet shoe with a heel - the split sole (no sole under the middle of the
foot) means that I can give a good point, and the heel is tapered slightly
inwards, so the edge don't catch my in-step - they work for me. I must say
though that for technique work, I prefer my flat pumps - again split sole.

Pia
----- Original Message -----
From: Lara D. Friedman <laradf@si.umich.edu>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: jazz shoes

> On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 Volleyballjerry@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I was about to say much the same (as Helen), but while I was thinking
about
> > how to phrase it, she beat me to it. Given that Helen has already been
quite
> > direct, I won't hesitate to clearly second her comments: that jazz
shoes
> > really don't belong in SCD at all.
> >
> > Robb Quint
> > Thousand Oaks, CA, USA
>
> Oh come on now! Jazz shoes doen't work for everyone (I also have problems
> with getting bruises on insides of my ankles from the heel of my shoe
> hitting when I close in third), but some people don't have this problem,
> and find that jazz shoes, which lace up the foot more like a regular shoe,
> provide more support or simply fit better. I know a few dancers who,
> despite trying several brands and styles of ghillie, can't find one that
> fits properly. Not only that, they are a lot cheaper than ghillies.
>
> As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be pointed
> and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably and
> with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?
>
>
> --Lara Friedman-Shedlov
> Minneapolis, MN USA
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
> ldfs@bigfoot.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> >
>

jazz shoes

Message 34429 · Pia Walker · 11 Mar 2003 18:56:19 · Top

I take it, by the way, that this is a mis-step :>) closing in third -
should not give bruises on ankles - should it? Unless you miss that is :>)

Pia

I also have problems
> with getting bruises on insides of my ankles from the heel of my shoe
> hitting when I close in third),

> --Lara Friedman-Shedlov
> Minneapolis, MN USA
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
> ldfs@bigfoot.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> >
>

jazz shoes

Message 34431 · Priscilla M. Burrage · 11 Mar 2003 19:59:52 · Top

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Pia Walker wrote:

> I take it, by the way, that this is a mis-step :>) closing in third -
> should not give bruises on ankles - should it? Unless you miss that is :>)

I agree with you, Pia. Perhaps these steps are being taught differently
these days?

happy dancing in unbruised feet,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage Vermont US
(pburrage@zoo.uvm.edu)

jazz shoes

Message 34436 · Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov · 12 Mar 2003 00:41:54 · Top

Actually, no, it isn't a misstep. My ankle is right above my instep.
When I am on the balls of my feet and I close in third, the heel of
my leading foot comes in contact with the ankle bone of the other foot.
I do tend to dance rather high on the balls
of my feet, but not excessively so.

--Lara

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
ldfs@bigfoot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Pia Walker wrote:

> I take it, by the way, that this is a mis-step :>) closing in third -
> should not give bruises on ankles - should it? Unless you miss that is :>)
>
> Pia
>
> I also have problems
> > with getting bruises on insides of my ankles from the heel of my shoe
> > hitting when I close in third),
>
> > --Lara Friedman-Shedlov
> > Minneapolis, MN USA
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
> > ldfs@bigfoot.com
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

jazz shoes

Message 34430 · Adam Hughes · 11 Mar 2003 19:05:15 · Top

Lara D. Friedman wrote:
> ...find that jazz shoes, which lace up the foot more like a regular shoe,
> provide more support or simply fit better. I know a few dancers who,
> despite trying several brands and styles of ghillie, can't find one that
> fits properly. Not only that, they are a lot cheaper than ghillies.
>
> As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be pointed
> and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably and
> with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?

Well, I know that you Americans have access to much better Jazz shoes
than we Brits do, but...

1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the same
local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order, but I
think the saving is about the same.)

2) I've never found a fully-soled jazz shoe with a flexible enough sole
to point (the plastic ones are yukky, and the suede ones I have are very
stiff... but I thought that was the point of Jazz shoes). I have seen
two-part-soles which allow your arch to move (and so provide no arch
support) but do let you point. Those were much more expensive than the
normal jazz shoes (+50%).

3) I've been troden on in waltzs by some lovely young ladies, and one
particular scottish dancing ex-land-lady of mine has troden on me in
both gillies and Jazz shoes. Jazz shoes hurt more, whether I was
wearing jazz shoes or ghillies.

Adam
--
"Oh-oh!" Sally said.
"Don't you talk to that cat.
That cat is a bad one,
That Cat in the Hat..." (Dr. Seuss)

jazz shoes

Message 34432 · Blain Nelson · 11 Mar 2003 20:26:46 · Top

Adam Hughes wrote:
>
> Well, I know that you Americans have access to much better Jazz shoes
> than we Brits do, but...
>
> 1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the same
> local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order, but I
> think the saving is about the same.)
>

Really. I got my jazz shoes for $30, and haven't found a source for
ghillies at that price in my size.

> 2) I've never found a fully-soled jazz shoe with a flexible enough sole
> to point (the plastic ones are yukky, and the suede ones I have are very
> stiff... but I thought that was the point of Jazz shoes). I have seen
> two-part-soles which allow your arch to move (and so provide no arch
> support) but do let you point. Those were much more expensive than the
> normal jazz shoes (+50%).
>

Mine have suede soles which are very flexible, and have a very scant
heel. I have no trouble pointing my toes or putting them in any
position at all that my feet will go. They are beginning to stretch to
fit my feet better, and the only problem I've had with them is my big
toe-nail being rather cross from the pressure on it when I dance. This
past weekend I had my first dance since I got them (the floor we have
dances on is slicker than the one we have class on), and slipped once
very mildly (as opposed to several times that were rather scary when
dancing in my socks). And my feet hurt much less since I put insoles
and moleskin in them.

> 3) I've been troden on in waltzs by some lovely young ladies, and one
> particular scottish dancing ex-land-lady of mine has troden on me in
> both gillies and Jazz shoes. Jazz shoes hurt more, whether I was
> wearing jazz shoes or ghillies.
>

I've not yet been trod upon, so I can't compare notes on this. I did
apparently step on my daughter's foot doing Moffat Weavers, but our
instructor had apparently stepped on them twice when she did Moffat
Weavers with her (they did it twice because people enjoyed it, and not
everybody who wanted to dance the first time could get into a set).

Thus far, I'm happy with my jazz shoes. I look forward to trying some
ghillies, but they're going to have to wait until they can fit into my
budget.

> Adam

Take care,
Blain

jazz shoes

Message 34433 · Richard Goss · 11 Mar 2003 22:48:32 · Top

I am not sure what prompted Robb's comments re Jazz shoes. In structure they
come inbetween the present RSCDS ghillie and the traditional footwear of
country dancing, which was a thin soled ghillie brogue, complete with low
heel.

My feelings are mixed, regarding personal footwear in that I have worn both,
and as I increase in age, the slight heel allows me to last longer in a long
evening of dances.

Our "shoe de jour" is relatively modern as one can see watching tapes of the
original "White Heather Show" with women in heels exceeding one inch in
height. Old shots of highland dancing also show both heeled and unheeled
shoes, although since the early 50's, I have never seen these for Highland
dance competition (jig shoes being the exception).

Many of the step dances were done, wearing what are called "character"
shoes, with a low, but not completely flat, heel.

As far as danger is concerned, yes when a VW is hit with a Caddy, we know
who will be the loser. At the same time, I thought the object was to avoid
stepping on others feet. If I had a choice of a "wee" lassie in jazz shoes,
and a "braw" lassie in our ghillies, I would prefer the jazz shoes tromping
on my feet any time.

As evidence of the use of heels, I recommend that one checks out the
illustrations in the original editions of the early SCD books, as the change
in orthodox style from then to now corresponds to the change in heeled to
unheeled shoes.

I seriously doubt if ghillies were ever seen on a country dance floor prior
to the creation of the [R]SCDS. Looking at the title plates of old
publications, the tabbed ghillie (heeled or ambiguous) is only seen on
dancers performing Highland Dances.

In photos of the early dem deams, the large bundle of white, looks even
worse when grounded in ineligant ghillies instead of opened dancing pumps
(including that added elastic strip).

jazz shoes

Message 34442 · Pia Walker · 12 Mar 2003 10:18:01 · Top

re big toes and pressure: a) cut toenails short b) when buying a pair of
dancing shoes, gently hold them over steam and put them on - wait until they
have cooled down a bit, so you don't scald your foot (I wear a socklet to
protect also and don't steam them so much, that whatever glue is holding
them together softens - wear them until they have taken the shape of the
foot - you can always repeat the treatment until you have then just right.
c) walk in your dance pumps before you use them for dancing - just as hill
walkers etc make their boots comfortable before they are put to the test.

NB! steam doesn't work with canvas shoes :>) only leather

Pia

----- Original Message -----
From: Blain Nelson <blainn13@earthlink.net>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: jazz shoes

> Adam Hughes wrote:
> >
> > Well, I know that you Americans have access to much better Jazz shoes
> > than we Brits do, but...
> >
> > 1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the same
> > local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order, but I
> > think the saving is about the same.)
> >
>
> Really. I got my jazz shoes for $30, and haven't found a source for
> ghillies at that price in my size.
>
> > 2) I've never found a fully-soled jazz shoe with a flexible enough sole
> > to point (the plastic ones are yukky, and the suede ones I have are very
> > stiff... but I thought that was the point of Jazz shoes). I have seen
> > two-part-soles which allow your arch to move (and so provide no arch
> > support) but do let you point. Those were much more expensive than the
> > normal jazz shoes (+50%).
> >
>
> Mine have suede soles which are very flexible, and have a very scant
> heel. I have no trouble pointing my toes or putting them in any
> position at all that my feet will go. They are beginning to stretch to
> fit my feet better, and the only problem I've had with them is my big
> toe-nail being rather cross from the pressure on it when I dance. This
> past weekend I had my first dance since I got them (the floor we have
> dances on is slicker than the one we have class on), and slipped once
> very mildly (as opposed to several times that were rather scary when
> dancing in my socks). And my feet hurt much less since I put insoles
> and moleskin in them.
>
> > 3) I've been troden on in waltzs by some lovely young ladies, and one
> > particular scottish dancing ex-land-lady of mine has troden on me in
> > both gillies and Jazz shoes. Jazz shoes hurt more, whether I was
> > wearing jazz shoes or ghillies.
> >
>
> I've not yet been trod upon, so I can't compare notes on this. I did
> apparently step on my daughter's foot doing Moffat Weavers, but our
> instructor had apparently stepped on them twice when she did Moffat
> Weavers with her (they did it twice because people enjoyed it, and not
> everybody who wanted to dance the first time could get into a set).
>
> Thus far, I'm happy with my jazz shoes. I look forward to trying some
> ghillies, but they're going to have to wait until they can fit into my
> budget.
>
> > Adam
>
> Take care,
> Blain
>

jazz shoes

Message 34461 · ron.mackey · 13 Mar 2003 21:07:27 · Top

> Along with Pia's suggestion for making dance shoes slightly bigger, I can
> add another suggestion that has been moderately successful. Put a plastic
> bag INSIDE each shoe, then add water to the bag until the shoe is
> filled. Seal the bag so the water can't escape, then put the shoe and bag
> inside another plastic bag just to be sure there is no leakage, and place
> in the freezer for about 24 hours. Remove from the freezer and let thaw
> enough to get the inner bag of water out of each shoe. The expansion of
> the water during freezing does expand the shoe a bit. Like Pia, I do wear
> them around once the ice has thawed to help them stretch a bit. Given that
> most people don't routinely put their shoes in the freezer, a
> warning/notice to other family members may be in order...
>
> Noel Chavez, Chicago

My, the lengths we will go to for comfy feet! Makes dancing more
pleasurable though, doesn't it! :)

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

jazz shoes

Message 34444 · Adam Hughes · 12 Mar 2003 13:03:07 · Top

Blain Nelson wrote:
> Adam Hughes wrote:
>> 1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the
>> same local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order,
>> but I think the saving is about the same.)
>
> Really. I got my jazz shoes for $30, and haven't found a source for
> ghillies at that price in my size.

Wow. No argument here then. My Jazz shoes cost £35 = $60, and the
ghillies were £32. I can get Ghillies for £27 (inc p+p), but I've not
found jazz shoes for under £30.

> Mine have suede soles which are very flexible, and have a very scant
> heel.

Cheaper and better. Last time I was in the States I though I should go
into the shoe exporting business... I'm sure I could pay for a plane
ticket by taking a suitcase full of ghillies one way and returning with
a suitcaseful of Jazz shoes...

Richard Goss wrote:
> At the same time, I thought the object was to avoid
> stepping on others feet. If I had a choice of a "wee" lassie in jazz shoes,
> and a "braw" lassie in our ghillies, I would prefer the jazz shoes tromping
> on my feet any time.

I've never noticed being trodden on by a wee lassie... it's always the
braw ones that make the impact...

From my experiments, it is the little bit of protruding hard sole at
the front which does the damage, rather than the heel...

Adam
--
"Oh-oh!" Sally said.
"Don't you talk to that cat.
That cat is a bad one,
That Cat in the Hat..." (Dr. Seuss)

jazz shoes

Message 34447 · Helen P. · 12 Mar 2003 15:49:20 · Top

> Blain Nelson wrote:
> > I got my jazz shoes for $30, and haven't found a source for
> > ghillies at that price in my size.
>
"Adam Hughes" <adamoutside@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> My Jazz shoes cost £35 = $60, and the
> ghillies were £32. I can get Ghillies for £27 (inc p+p), but I've not
> found jazz shoes for under £30.

Goodness! My ghillies cost 35 *dollars* (US), although that was 3 years ago
(they last me for about 4 years).

"Martin" <martin.sheffield@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Sounds great, but where do you find shoes wide and roomy enough to take
> insoles -- and not crush your feet?

Hey, with three or four flat insoles in each shoe, mine stop flopping around
on me. <g>

-- Helen of the long but verrry narrow feet
(MD USA)

jazz shoes

Message 34448 · Miriam L. Mueller · 12 Mar 2003 16:54:50 · Top

re big toes and pressure -
There are soft elastic tubes with a jelly-like substance lining
half of them - the jelly is amazing padding, and the friend who
introduced me to them saved my weekend when I developed a raw spot under
my big toe. I now use one regularly for a pressure-sensitive big toe, and
it makes a wonderful difference.
Also, I take my spenco insoles & orthotics with me when I shop
for shoes and figure the extra thickness when ordering dance shoes. I get
weird looks from shoe store salespersons, but comfortable shoes.
Miriam Mueller, San Francisco

jazz shoes

Message 34460 · Martin.Sheffield · 13 Mar 2003 10:00:44 · Top

At 15:49 12/03/03, you wrote:

>Hey, with three or four flat insoles in each shoe, mine stop flopping around
>on me. <g>
>
>-- Helen of the long but verrry narrow feet

You lucky, lucky person !!!

Martin (with just the opposite kind of feet -- the kind no-one makes shoes for!)

jazz shoes

Message 34467 · Helen P. · 14 Mar 2003 00:26:48 · Top

I used to go shopping with a friend with extra-wide feet. We'd drive the
sales people crazy. All their shoes were simultaneously too wide (for me)
and too narrow (for her). And it didn't help that we both needed large
sizes.

With ghillies, all I have to do is get the right length and style, and then
go grab a bunch of insoles. Heavenly! <g>

FYI, my pas de basque hop is higher than that of many folks, thanks to those
long toes, but I have almost no turnout or arches. It literally takes me
about 10 minutes of warmups before I have any turnout worth mentioning, and
my feet never look like they're pointed fully due to my low arches.

You probably have a much easier time with both of those fine points of SCD,
Mr. Duckfoot. ;-)

-- Helen

From: "Martin" <martin.sheffield@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:49 AM

> At 15:49 12/03/03, you wrote:
>
> >Hey, with three or four flat insoles in each shoe, mine stop flopping
around
> >on me. <g>
> >
> >-- Helen of the long but verrry narrow feet
>
> You lucky, lucky person !!!
>
> Martin (with just the opposite kind of feet -- the kind no-one makes shoes
for!)

jazz shoes

Message 34451 · Noel Chavez · 12 Mar 2003 23:34:17 · Top

Along with Pia's suggestion for making dance shoes slightly bigger, I can
add another suggestion that has been moderately successful. Put a plastic
bag INSIDE each shoe, then add water to the bag until the shoe is
filled. Seal the bag so the water can't escape, then put the shoe and bag
inside another plastic bag just to be sure there is no leakage, and place
in the freezer for about 24 hours. Remove from the freezer and let thaw
enough to get the inner bag of water out of each shoe. The expansion of
the water during freezing does expand the shoe a bit. Like Pia, I do wear
them around once the ice has thawed to help them stretch a bit. Given that
most people don't routinely put their shoes in the freezer, a
warning/notice to other family members may be in order...

Noel Chavez, Chicago

At 09:25 PM 3/11/03 +0000, you wrote:
>re big toes and pressure: a) cut toenails short b) when buying a pair of
>dancing shoes, gently hold them over steam and put them on - wait until they
>have cooled down a bit, so you don't scald your foot (I wear a socklet to
>protect also and don't steam them so much, that whatever glue is holding
>them together softens - wear them until they have taken the shape of the
>foot - you can always repeat the treatment until you have then just right.
>c) walk in your dance pumps before you use them for dancing - just as hill
>walkers etc make their boots comfortable before they are put to the test.
>
>NB! steam doesn't work with canvas shoes :>) only leather
>
>Pia
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Blain Nelson <blainn13@earthlink.net>
>To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:26 PM
>Subject: Re: jazz shoes
>
>
> > Adam Hughes wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, I know that you Americans have access to much better Jazz shoes
> > > than we Brits do, but...
> > >
> > > 1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the same
> > > local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order, but I
> > > think the saving is about the same.)
> > >
> >
> > Really. I got my jazz shoes for $30, and haven't found a source for
> > ghillies at that price in my size.
> >
> > > 2) I've never found a fully-soled jazz shoe with a flexible enough sole
> > > to point (the plastic ones are yukky, and the suede ones I have are very
> > > stiff... but I thought that was the point of Jazz shoes). I have seen
> > > two-part-soles which allow your arch to move (and so provide no arch
> > > support) but do let you point. Those were much more expensive than the
> > > normal jazz shoes (+50%).
> > >
> >
> > Mine have suede soles which are very flexible, and have a very scant
> > heel. I have no trouble pointing my toes or putting them in any
> > position at all that my feet will go. They are beginning to stretch to
> > fit my feet better, and the only problem I've had with them is my big
> > toe-nail being rather cross from the pressure on it when I dance. This
> > past weekend I had my first dance since I got them (the floor we have
> > dances on is slicker than the one we have class on), and slipped once
> > very mildly (as opposed to several times that were rather scary when
> > dancing in my socks). And my feet hurt much less since I put insoles
> > and moleskin in them.
> >
> > > 3) I've been troden on in waltzs by some lovely young ladies, and one
> > > particular scottish dancing ex-land-lady of mine has troden on me in
> > > both gillies and Jazz shoes. Jazz shoes hurt more, whether I was
> > > wearing jazz shoes or ghillies.
> > >
> >
> > I've not yet been trod upon, so I can't compare notes on this. I did
> > apparently step on my daughter's foot doing Moffat Weavers, but our
> > instructor had apparently stepped on them twice when she did Moffat
> > Weavers with her (they did it twice because people enjoyed it, and not
> > everybody who wanted to dance the first time could get into a set).
> >
> > Thus far, I'm happy with my jazz shoes. I look forward to trying some
> > ghillies, but they're going to have to wait until they can fit into my
> > budget.
> >
> > > Adam
> >
> > Take care,
> > Blain
> >

jazz shoes

Message 34437 · Lara D. Friedman~Shedlov · 12 Mar 2003 00:44:06 · Top

Here in the states, they are substantially cheaper (can be purchased for
less that $20) and come in many styles, most with split soles. I agree it
hurts more if a jazz shoe heel lands on your foot than a ghillie, though.

--Lara

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
ldfs@bigfoot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Adam Hughes wrote:

> Lara D. Friedman wrote:
> > ...find that jazz shoes, which lace up the foot more like a regular shoe,
> > provide more support or simply fit better. I know a few dancers who,
> > despite trying several brands and styles of ghillie, can't find one that
> > fits properly. Not only that, they are a lot cheaper than ghillies.
> >
> > As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be pointed
> > and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably and
> > with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?
>
> Well, I know that you Americans have access to much better Jazz shoes
> than we Brits do, but...
>
> 1) My ghillies were cheaper than my jazz shoes. Both came from the same
> local shop. (I know I can get them both cheaper by mail order, but I
> think the saving is about the same.)
>
> 2) I've never found a fully-soled jazz shoe with a flexible enough sole
> to point (the plastic ones are yukky, and the suede ones I have are very
> stiff... but I thought that was the point of Jazz shoes). I have seen
> two-part-soles which allow your arch to move (and so provide no arch
> support) but do let you point. Those were much more expensive than the
> normal jazz shoes (+50%).
>
> 3) I've been troden on in waltzs by some lovely young ladies, and one
> particular scottish dancing ex-land-lady of mine has troden on me in
> both gillies and Jazz shoes. Jazz shoes hurt more, whether I was
> wearing jazz shoes or ghillies.
>
> Adam
> --
> "Oh-oh!" Sally said.
> "Don't you talk to that cat.
> That cat is a bad one,
> That Cat in the Hat..." (Dr. Seuss)
>
>
>

jazz shoes

Message 34434 · John P. McClure · 11 Mar 2003 23:50:00 · Top

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lara D. Friedman wrote:

> Oh come on now! ....

Thanks for saying it, Lara. The vehemence of some of the opponents of
jazz shoes was quite remarkable, especially considering the many postings
in favour of inclusiveness made to this list.

Peter McClure
Winnipeg, MB

jazz shoes

Message 34435 · Noel Chavez · 12 Mar 2003 00:38:16 · Top

I guess that one point I would make is that the dancer can really control
whether or not closing in third position causes a bruise. I used to do it
regularly, particularly in a ball situation. My teacher thought that was a
good sign-at least I was hitting 3rd position (Thanks, Kent). But, I've
learned I can still close in 3rd but not cause bruises by controlling how
'hard' the heel touches the instep. It does take some awareness of where
your feet are in the process, and learning that is the first step, but it
can be modified, and can work even with jazz shoes. I would also note that
the heels on my jazz shoes have a hard rubber heel rather than a usual hard
'shoe' one.

Noel Chavez, Chicago

At 04:49 PM 3/11/03 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lara D. Friedman wrote:
>
> > Oh come on now! ....
>
>Thanks for saying it, Lara. The vehemence of some of the opponents of
>jazz shoes was quite remarkable, especially considering the many postings
>in favour of inclusiveness made to this list.
>
>Peter McClure
>Winnipeg, MB

jazz shoes

Message 34438 · Nina Mussellam · 12 Mar 2003 04:09:12 · Top

I want to thank every one for their interesting answers to the problems with
my feet.(grin)
I have the pleated toe ballet slipper that always was my favorite, but as my
feet have aged:((( , I find that I have some orthopedic problems.

On someone's advice, I thought that I'd try the Jazz shoes ( with a Foam
insole) and they fit exceptionally well - except for the 3rd position
problem.

As someone pointed out , you can train yourself NOT to close so violently
into the 3rd position , but after 15 years of skating coaches yelling to:
" close together "and then 15 years of polite encouragement from SCD
teachers, I do not think I can change.

So I will ask my DH to file off the sharpness of the heel , but I've also
ordered some Ghilles today and will get fitted for orthotics.

Heaven Forbid that I have to give up dancing just when I got back after 8
years or so.
Thanks again.
Nina M

jazz shoes

Message 34439 · Priscilla M. Burrage · 12 Mar 2003 05:25:33 · Top

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Nina Mussellam wrote:

> So I will ask my DH to file off the sharpness of the heel , but I've also
> ordered some Ghilles today and will get fitted for orthotics.

Try superfeet as in superfeet.com

Look in a ski shop for the thicker versions of them before you buy
"blind." You'll find blue or green ones there -- the thickest. I've been
using the thin black full soles in my English shoes and regular every
dance shoes for over a year. It's wonderful to be able to dance a whole
evening. again! In my Scottish ballet slippers, I use the half sole
labeled for high heels by superfeet and in the front under my toes I use
those blue pads that make you feel like you're dancing on jello.

Oh, yes. My orthopedic surgeon recommended them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage Vermont US
(pburrage@zoo.uvm.edu)

jazz shoes

Message 34443 · Martin.Sheffield · 12 Mar 2003 10:38:29 · Top

Priscilla wrote about thick insoles:

>Look in a ski shop for the thicker versions ... You'll find blue or green
>ones there -- the thickest.
...
>in the front under my toes I use
>those blue pads

Sounds great, but where do you find shoes wide and roomy enough to take
insoles -- and not crush your feet?

I was prescribed insoles once, but never found any shoes roomy enough to t
ake them.

Martin
in Grenoble, France.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm

jazz shoes

Message 34440 · Helen P. · 12 Mar 2003 07:02:36 · Top

From: Lara Friedman-Shedlov <laradf@si.umich.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 12:24 PM

> Jazz shoes doen't work for everyone...
> but some people don't have this problem...
>
> As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be pointed
> and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably and
> with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?

Exactly. There's nothing inherently wrong about dancing SCD in Jazz shoes.
However, ANY shoes that cause you discomfort or injury in an activity should
be avoided. They may be perfectly fine for another activity, or for another
person.

From: "Richard Goss" <goss9@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 5:28 PM

> If I had a choice of a "wee" lassie in jazz shoes,
> and a "braw" lassie in our ghillies, I would prefer the jazz shoes
> tromping on my feet any time.

If you conducted tests (any volunteers? <wg>), you might be surprised at the
results. I've heard that the pressure per square inch of a woman's narrow,
high heel is equivalent to that of an elephant. That's why high heels are
so damaging to dance floors. Obviously, a broader heel is less, but if only
the sharp edge of a heel or sole hits you, it hurts a LOT to be kicked like
an elephant.

If my foot is flat on the floor, and someone -- even a large person--
without hard soles or high heels steps on me, it rarely causes any real
discomfort, much less injury. It feel similar to a very firm hand shake.

However, even a glancing sideways hit to the leg (without full body weight
behind it) has caused major bruising and severe pain. And being stepped on
by a high heel, or the edge of a man's sole, is *excruciatingly* painful,
even in low-impact dance styles such as ECD or contra dancing.

-- Helen (MD USA)

jazz shoes

Message 34441 · Helen P. · 12 Mar 2003 07:18:37 · Top

Oops, I left out a phrase in the last paragraph of my previous post...

However, even a glancing sideways hit to the leg
BY SOMEONE IN HEELS OR SHARP-EDGED SOLES
(without full body weight behind it) has caused major bruising and severe
pain. And being stepped on by a high heel, or the edge of a man's sole, is
*excruciatingly* painful, even in low-impact dance styles such as ECD or
contra dancing.

-- Helen (MD USA)

jazz shoes

Message 34446 · Colleen Putt · 12 Mar 2003 14:41:57 · Top

Hear! Hear!
I've been wearing split-sole jazz shoes for SCD for years now and I
love them. The mistake people make, I think, is in buying jazz shoes
with a heel that's too hard. Capezio makes a pair that have a soft
spongy heel that causes no bruising or pain in making the third
position.
Another unforeseen benefit is that the beveled edge of the sole (the
bit near the instep) enhances the curve of the arch in your foot.

(And, please, let's have no more pronouncements about what does or does
not "belong" in SCD.)
Cheers and happy dancing,
Colleen
Bedford, Nova Scotia

> Oh come on now! Jazz shoes doen't work for everyone (I also have
> problems
> with getting bruises on insides of my ankles from the heel of my
> shoe
> hitting when I close in third), but some people don't have this
> problem,
> and find that jazz shoes, which lace up the foot more like a regular
> shoe,
> provide more support or simply fit better. I know a few dancers
> who,
> despite trying several brands and styles of ghillie, can't find one
> that
> fits properly. Not only that, they are a lot cheaper than ghillies.
>
> As long as the shoe has a flexible sole that allows the foot to be
> pointed
> and the individual in question is able to dance in them comfortably
> and
> with reasonable technique, why on earth should anyone object?
>
>
> --Lara Friedman-Shedlov
> Minneapolis, MN USA
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Thwart not the librarian!"
> ldfs@bigfoot.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> >
>
>

jazz shoes

Message 34449 · Oliver Thinius · 12 Mar 2003 17:51:25 · Top

Whatever soft shoe a dancer considers to support his or her foot best
should be his or her choice to maintain health while dancing. I, for
myself, do not promote drawstring pumps for ladies, as they do not
stabilize the foot. But it should be everybody's own choice what to
wear.

Regards,
Oliver Thinius
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

Volleyballjerry@aol.com wrote am 11.03.2003:

----------<snip>-----------
I won't hesitate to clearly second her comments: that jazz shoes
really don't belong in SCD at all.
----------<snip>-----------

jazz shoes

Message 34450 · Volleyballjerry · 12 Mar 2003 21:08:00 · Top

My own and Helen's initial and somewhat negative comments on jazz shoes
certainly elicited a large number of responses, all well taken, and making me
feel that my initial comment was perhaps a bit too blunt, regrettably causing
me to come across as the "shoe police"! I still personally feel that jazz
shoes are a bit peculiar for today's SCD (historical shoe-type usage
notwithstanding), but that's just my personal take. There are all sorts of
extenuating circumstances, be they finances, special orthopedic needs, or
otherwise. One of our experienced dancers recently had a temporary foot
problem that required him for a while to wear ordinary street shoes and
simply walk the patterns (which he accomplished with great skill, never
getting in anyone else's way). Jazz shoes did appear once for a while in my
class without any negative comment whatsoever by me to the dancer. Given a
choice, though, with all things being equal, and no special needs being the
case, I still feel that they are outside the range of shoe types most
appropriate for SCD, and I would not recommend them as an equal possibility
to a dancer seeking to purchase shoes.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

jazz shoes

Message 34455 · Anselm Lingnau · 13 Mar 2003 00:46:06 · Top

Robb Quint <Volleyballjerry@aol.com> writes:

> Given a
> choice, though, with all things being equal, and no special needs being the
> case, I still feel that they are outside the range of shoe types most
> appropriate for SCD, and I would not recommend them as an equal possibility
> to a dancer seeking to purchase shoes.

My opinion is the other way round. I like the dancers in my class to
make the effort to dance to the best of their abilities, and their
footwear should not prevent them from doing so. I couldn't care less if
somebody wore ghillies, pumps or jazz shoes as long as they are dancing
as well as they can -- and if somebody has a medical condition that
requires them to wear something else (short of a cast), then as long as
they can continue dancing at all, more power to them. I do take
exception, though, if young, fit newcomers keep wearing high-top
sneakers for more than the first couple of weeks, when soft gym-type
shoes can be obtained at very moderate cost in high-street sport shops.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau .......................................... anselm@strathspey.org
You cannot teach beginners top-down programming, because they don't know which
end is up. -- C. A. R. Hoare

shoes

Message 34452 · ron.mackey · 12 Mar 2003 23:55:35 · Top

> Whatever soft shoe a dancer considers to support his or her foot best
> should be his or her choice to maintain health while dancing. I, for
> myself, do not promote drawstring pumps for ladies, as they do not
> stabilize the foot. But it should be everybody's own choice what to
> wear.
> Oliver Thinius

I don't know about the other side of the 'pond' but in the UK one
can always buy a spray can of a leather stretcher. Having broad
feet I always carry a can when I am going to wear new shoes. The
technique is to spray the area _opposite_ the area of pressure. The
reason is that any bunion or swelling is going - in time - to cause
the leather to give but you don't want it to stretch too far over a
swelling as that will exacerbate the problem. If you spray the
opposite side, the foot will move away from the offending area. If
necessary one can spray an area when not wearing them and press and
stretch the required place to start the expansion before wearing
them.
I have managed to reduce the pressure on a suspect right
great toe joint by spraying and stretching the whole of the area from
the right small toe down the outside to just level with the top of
the instep. This moves the foot to the right of the sole but keeps
the inside of the shoe fairly straight and avoids the sideways pull
on the top of the great toe thus keeping the bunion at bay.
Incidentally, I always use James Senior's Lord Fife shoes for the
comfort of the fibre padded sole. I can recommend them. Can't offer
an opinion on the Lady Fife shoe though and I have never tried the
Hullachan Pro, which some seem to like.

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
39, Grove Park Road,
Mottingham
London SE9 4NS

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