strathspey Archive: The Other Side

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The Other Side

Message 30439 · Denise Babin · 22 Apr 2002 03:46:41 · Top

I've grown rather fond of "partner's side", which John McCormick often uses
in his very clear, straightforward briefings. It lacks the ambiguity of
"opposite side" (opposite of where I am now? or where I "live"?). And
unlike "wrong side", if someone whispers it to me in the middle of a dance
when I've gone awry, I'll know where I'm supposed to go. (You mean, I'm on
the wrong side or I should go to the wrong side?)

I suppose there's no PERFECT phrase...so if you're dancing with me and I go
to the wrong wrong side, heck, just point. :)

Denise Babin
Milwaukee, WI (US)

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The Other Side

Message 30446 · Volleyballjerry · 22 Apr 2002 19:16:05 · Top

In the realm of terminology, we all tend to settle in on whatever seems to
consistently work, not uncommonly inventing our own from time to time, I
perhaps more than typically, as my students have coined their own term,
(affectionately I perceive and infer) categorizing such inventions as
"Robbisms." Specifically on this matter of "opposite" (I find too vague;
facing up-and-down is another opposite) or "wrong" (to me a tad distasteful
even if colloquially acceptable), I generally use (without any suggestion
whatsoever that anyone else do likewise) the expression "opposite gender
side." And students do get used to their teachers' terminologies; mine in
this case know full well that I am referring to the side of the room, not to
their biological genders! In fact the term "gender" I often find quite
useful; e.g., if men are setting to men, women to women, or perhaps turning
same, "same gender" says it without having to mention both.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

The Other Side

Message 30461 · res009k3 · 23 Apr 2002 00:54:18 · Top

Off the floor, the vocabulary problem can have amusing connotations:

I once met a girl on a beach on Skye.
As her accent was ambiguous, I had to ask her roots when she said, "where do you stay"
I have found that often the English and North Americans use the word "stay" to refer to the immediate location of your bed that night.

In Scotland, "stay" often means what is ones address when one is "at hame".

Yes, she was English, and it was a pickup line.

R Goss
[richard.n.goss@gte.net]

sex

Message 30531 · Oberdan Otto · 25 Apr 2002 10:22:51 · Top

>In fact the term "gender" I often find quite
>useful; e.g., if men are setting to men, women to women, or perhaps turning
>same, "same gender" says it without having to mention both.

Every once in a while something strikes me as hysterically funny.

Tonight it is the euphemism for the word sex used above. I am
wondering why we work so hard not to say the "S" word. I don't know
if you can see it, but even my email program is complaining about it
right now by highlighting it in RED! Moreover, the subject is marked
with a double hot pepper symbol. I tried some other off-color words
and was able to go as high as 3 hot peppers!

I've got a prudish email program!! :))

And when filling out personal information on application forms which
ask you to designate your sex, were you ever tempted to answer "yes"
or "no" instead of M or F???

Oberdan.
--
184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611 USA
Voice: (805) 389-0063, FAX: (805) 484-2718, email: ootto@ootto.com

sex

Message 30540 · Patricia Ruggiero · 25 Apr 2002 17:22:49 · Top

Oberdan wrote:
"I am wondering why we work so hard not to say the "S" word. I don't know
if you can see it, but even my email program is complaining about it right
now by highlighting it in RED! Moreover, the subject is marked with a double
hot pepper symbol."

No hot peppers or red ink showed up in my email list but the unmodified word
caught my attention. How unusual, thought I in the first instant, not to
see various provocative phrases and numerous exclamation points in a heading
that included this word. In the next instant I saw that the message was
from Strathspey (could have also been from my Organic Gardening list, where
we often discuss the birds and the bees), so I knew that it would be
infinitely more interesting than those "other" sex messages that are
promptly deleted.

Yeah, my husband and I used to comment frequently on the substitution of
"gender" for "sex." It's too ubiquitous a substitution now for us to waste
time lamenting it, although we still do cringe when we hear or read it.
Makes me feel like a part of speech rather than a flesh and blood person.
Myself, I'm in favor of sex......

Appreciated your response, too, in your "Not demonstrating?" post.

Pat
Charlottesville, VA
USA

sex

Message 30541 · Andrew Buxton · 25 Apr 2002 17:46:02 · Top

Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> Yeah, my husband and I used to comment frequently on the substitution of
> "gender" for "sex." It's too ubiquitous a substitution now for us to waste
> time lamenting it, although we still do cringe when we hear or read it.
> Makes me feel like a part of speech rather than a flesh and blood person.
> Myself, I'm in favor of sex......
>
This use of "gender" for "sex" must cause some confusion in languages which still insist on making all nouns belong to a gender. For instance, in German Mädchen (girl) is neuter so you are facing different genders depending on whether your partner is a woman or a girl! You could even have three genders in the same set.

Andrew Buxton
Brighton

sex

Message 30556 · ron.mackey · 25 Apr 2002 23:15:54 · Top

> different genders depending on whether your partner is a woman or a
>girl! You could even have three genders in the same set.
>
> Andrew Buxton
> Brighton

Oh, at least !!! :)

sex

Message 30545 · Martin.Sheffield · 25 Apr 2002 18:34:24 · Top

Pat wrote:
>...on the substitution of
>"gender" for "sex."

>Myself, I'm in favor of sex......

Me too !
It's definitely SEXE in France, and I can't remember hearing much about
"gender" in GB either.
Must be another of those Americanisms

Martin
in Grenoble, France.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm

sex

Message 30549 · res009k3 · 25 Apr 2002 19:53:48 · Top

The "gender" vs "sex" controversy, is probably a UK vs USA English sort of thing. Having been a student on both sides of the Atlantic, I rather early picked up the fact that I got strange reactions when I said, gender when I meant what the British call sex. I asked a linguistics professor about this and his response was that gender is a grammatical construct having nothing to do with sex. He went on to say that the North Americans he had taught tended to be a bit prudish when it came to certain words with sexual overtones. So to them, gender was a polite way to overcome the improper overtones of sex, as in the act as opposed to male and female.

Webster confuses the issue when his ranking is ...
gender:
1. A. kind or sort
B. sex, and cites Dickens as his earliest source.
2. Linguistics
Oxford seems to support my point ...
1. A. Grammatical class
B. belonging to a class
2. [humorous], sex
This is probably an early example American PC, attempting
to cover up some denial or other.

So, lets see ...
A transsexual is a female in a male body or the reverse, but
A transgendered person, is one who is confused as to when to
say he or she.

R Goss
[richard.n.goss@gte.net]

sex

Message 30551 · Fyreladdie · 25 Apr 2002 21:25:29 · Top

In a message dated 4/25/02 9:46:47 AM, martin.sheffield@wanadoo.fr writes:

<< Must be another of those Americanisms >>

Yes, Martin, we Americans are big on sex. Ha!

Bob Mc Murtry

sex

Message 30558 · Patricia Ruggiero · 25 Apr 2002 23:28:57 · Top

Richard Goss wrote:

"He went on to say that the North Americans he had taught tended to be a bit
prudish when it came to certain words with sexual overtones. So to them,
gender was a polite way to overcome the improper overtones of sex, as in the
act as opposed to male and female."

I'd say that is true *now* but 20 years ago Americans were still using the
word "sex," while "gender" was rarely heard. I can remember indexing books
in the 80s with such freely used terms as "sex discrimination," "sex
equity," "sex roles," etc. , whereas now "gender" has replaced "sex" in all
these phrases.

[SCD content coming up...] I use "sex" and "opposite sex" when teaching
dance. The word "gender" gets stuck in my throat and refuses to come out
unless I am discussing grammar which, of course, I wouldn't be doing in an
SCD class........

Come to think of it, no one in our group uses "gender" either. Maybe it's
an age thing? Or maybe, in our lovely rarified SCD world, we miss trends in
contemporary culture?

Pat
Charlottesville, VA
USA

sex

Message 30559 · simon scott · 26 Apr 2002 01:19:15 · Top

If it weren't for sex we would not be Scottish Country Dancing.
Let's not drop it for heavens save !!
Simon

sex

Message 30562 · Pia Walker · 26 Apr 2002 09:41:05 · Top

Of course we would NEVER drop Scottish Country Dancing. Where else could we
smile and maintain eye contact :>)

Pia

----- Original Message -----
From: simon scott <simon.scott@telus.net>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:19 AM
Subject: RE: sex

>
>
> If it weren't for sex we would not be Scottish Country Dancing.
> Let's not drop it for heavens save !!
> Simon
>
>

sex

Message 30563 · Lee Fuell · 26 Apr 2002 09:57:38 · Top

Pia's comment reminds me of a socio-psychological issue that is also relevant to
SCD:

Q: How do you tell an extroverted engineer from an introvert?

A: The extrovert stares at YOUR shoes when talking to you.

It's sometimes fascinating to see how interested some dancers are in the floor they
are dancing on...

Lee in Ohio

Send reply to: strathspey@strathspey.org
From: "Pia Walker" <piawalke@nascr.net>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Subject: Re: sex
Date sent: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:01:31 +0100
Organization: Pia Translations

> Of course we would NEVER drop Scottish Country Dancing. Where else
> could we smile and maintain eye contact :>)
>
> Pia

sex

Message 30564 · SallenNic · 26 Apr 2002 11:13:48 · Top

In a message dated 25/4/02 8:44:57 pm, eclyde@rogers.com writes:

>It's not just email programs that are prudish. Elsewhere I have been
>
>reading about Internet suppliers, such as AOL, that filter out messages
>with
>
>certain words in the heading, e.g. s--e--x, and just don't pass them on.
>
>I'm not sure, but it may also be true if these words appear in the text.
> So
>
>some regular strathspey readers may not even be seeing this thread!
As an Aol user, I have been watching the whole thread with interest.

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.

sex

Message 30567 · Pia Walker · 26 Apr 2002 14:04:20 · Top

As long as they don't close their eyes and think of Scotland :>)

Pia

----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Lee Fuell, Jr. <fuell@mindspring.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: sex

> Pia's comment reminds me of a socio-psychological issue that is also
relevant to
> SCD:
>
> Q: How do you tell an extroverted engineer from an introvert?
>
> A: The extrovert stares at YOUR shoes when talking to you.
>
> It's sometimes fascinating to see how interested some dancers are in the
floor they
> are dancing on...
>
> Lee in Ohio
>

sex

Message 30589 · cputt · 28 Apr 2002 07:39:17 · Top

I've been (reliably, I hope) that sex is biological and gender is acquired by
acculturation.
Just further muddying the waters... <grin>
Cheers,
Colleen

sex

Message 30552 · Eric Clyde · 25 Apr 2002 21:44:24 · Top

It's not just email programs that are prudish. Elsewhere I have been
reading about Internet suppliers, such as AOL, that filter out messages with
certain words in the heading, e.g. s--e--x, and just don't pass them on.
I'm not sure, but it may also be true if these words appear in the text. So
some regular strathspey readers may not even be seeing this thread!

And, to your last question, I have on occasion actually written "yes" (never
"no") to your final question! But never where it was an important form!

Eric

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oberdan Otto" <ootto@ootto.com>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:19 AM
Subject: sex

> >In fact the term "gender" I often find quite
> >useful; e.g., if men are setting to men, women to women, or perhaps
turning
> >same, "same gender" says it without having to mention both.
>
> Every once in a while something strikes me as hysterically funny.
>
> Tonight it is the euphemism for the word sex used above. I am
> wondering why we work so hard not to say the "S" word. I don't know
> if you can see it, but even my email program is complaining about it
> right now by highlighting it in RED! Moreover, the subject is marked
> with a double hot pepper symbol. I tried some other off-color words
> and was able to go as high as 3 hot peppers!
>
> I've got a prudish email program!! :))
>
> And when filling out personal information on application forms which
> ask you to designate your sex, were you ever tempted to answer "yes"
> or "no" instead of M or F???
>
> Oberdan.
> --
> 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611 USA
> Voice: (805) 389-0063, FAX: (805) 484-2718, email: ootto@ootto.com
>

sex

Message 30553 · Fyreladdie · 25 Apr 2002 22:25:05 · Top

In a message dated 4/25/02 12:45:45 PM, eclyde@rogers.com writes:

<< And, to your last question, I have on occasion actually written "yes"
(never

"no") to your final question! But never where it was an important form! >>

Eric,
I plead guilty of doing that on a couple surveys.

Bob Mc Murtry

sex

Message 30555 · ron.mackey · 25 Apr 2002 23:15:54 · Top

Hi,
I believe one _is_ supposed to enjoy it! Anyway I've carried my
grin for longer tonight than than with any other thread.
Most entertaining!
Or is that another subject ?? :))

Happy... er... Dancing
Ron

The Other Side

Message 30465 · ron.mackey · 23 Apr 2002 00:56:16 · Top

> I've grown rather fond of "partner's side", which John McCormick often uses
> in his very clear, straightforward briefings. It lacks the ambiguity of
> "opposite side" (opposite of where I am now? or where I "live"?).
> Denise Babin

Hi, Denise
If you are told to go to your partner's side do you not finish up
beside your partner? :)

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

Ron Mackey. London Branch (and Croydon)
Mottingham
39-SE9 4NS

The Other Side

Message 30470 · adriana linden · 23 Apr 2002 03:13:29 · Top

Quote:
If you are told to go to your partner's side do you not finish up beside your
partner? :)

Goin' for pedantic here ;-) (and bein' a pain in the proverbial) but that would
be to go beside your partner, or to finish AT your partner's side, rather than
ON your partner's side or to go onto your partner's side. For ::ahem::
clarity, I generally use 'partner's side of the dance' rather than just
'partner's side', then the to/onto/beside/at distinctions are moot.

I really prefer the using 'partner's side/own side' and find it less ambigous
(esp. for beginners) than 'own side/opposite side' or 'own side/wrong side'.
Aside from the neg. connotation of the word 'wrong' (beginners are always
afraid of doing something wrong!)... aren't the ladies' & men's line opposite
each other, and don't we dance on opposite sides of the set for much of a
dance, whether our own side, or our partners' side?

I'll just shut up now <g>!

Cheers,
Adriana Linden
Montréal, QC

______________________________________________________________________
Only a few days left to file! http://taxes.yahoo.ca

The Other Side

Message 30474 · Denise Babin · 23 Apr 2002 06:14:58 · Top

Okay, Ron, you caught me. I misquoted John, who actually says, "Partner's
side OF THE DANCE." But if I'm going to go wrong, I might as well end up
alongside my partner and get a consoling hug before I boogie to where I'm
supposed to be. :)

>I've grown rather fond of "partner's side", which John McCormick often uses
>in his very clear, straightforward briefings. It lacks the ambiguity of
>"opposite side" (opposite of where I am now? or where I "live"?).
>Denise Babin

Hi, Denise
If you are told to go to your partner's side do you not finish up
beside your partner? :)

Happy Dancing
Cheers :)
Ron

_________________________________________________________________
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Another virus Dad ... !

Message 30475 · Ian Mackey · 23 Apr 2002 08:30:27 · Top

Sadly there is another virus doing the rounds :(

For users of Outlook and Outlook Express particularly

The virus is Klez; version E, G and H have been seen.
I repeat here advice about mail attachments:
If you receive an attachment you were not expecting, even if it appears
to come from a friend, do NOT open it until you have checked it with
up-to-date virus checking software, you may also like to check with the
sender that the message and the attachment were sent intentionally.

I use Network Associates VirusScan but the same virus protection files can
be used for McAfee.

The recommended product version is 4.5.1, the virus definitions are 4.0.4197
and the scan engine is 4.1.60.

p.s. Dad, just update as usual

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Mackey (Computer Officer) University Of Cambridge
Cavendish Laboratory, Madingley Road, Cambridge, CB3 0HE
Main tel.: 01223 337200 FAX: 01223 363263 http://www.phy.cam.ac.uk
Tel/Fax: 01223 337457 Ian.Mackey@phy.cam.ac.uk Pager: 701

The Other Side

Message 30532 · Oberdan Otto · 25 Apr 2002 10:22:52 · Top

> > I've grown rather fond of "partner's side", which John McCormick often uses
>> in his very clear, straightforward briefings. It lacks the ambiguity of
>> "opposite side" (opposite of where I am now? or where I "live"?).
>> Denise Babin
>
> Hi, Denise
> If you are told to go to your partner's side do you
>not finish up
>beside your partner? :)

Of course not Ron, 'cause your talking to both people in the couple!

The "partner's side" is a terminology I use routinely because I too
feel it is somewhat less ambiguous than others. But we ARE talking
about the English language, which is replete with ambiguities. Just
when you think you've got the killer word for a particular situation,
someone shows you how it could mean something totally different. But
for most of the people in my classes, the "opposite" side and the
"wrong" side communicate just as effectively. Then there are the
jokesters in the class that know exactly what I mean, but amuse us by
making literal interpretations of my babblings.

By the way, I wanted to put the word "sex" in this message so the
double hot peppers would appear, but that is not enough. It has to be
in the message twice to make one hot pepper appear and three or more
times will make two hot peppers appear! I wonder who sets up these
censoring algorithms?

Oberdan.
--
184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611 USA
Voice: (805) 389-0063, FAX: (805) 484-2718, email: ootto@ootto.com

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