strathspey Archive: Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Previous thread: Inspiration to dance (was Re: Favorite Strathespeys - why are they favorites?)
Next thread: The Highland Reel? (it's me again)

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28548 · Volleyballjerry · 1 Dec 2001 01:06:31 · Top

Many/most probably know this, but just for those who may not, and I believe
that this works universally:

"Num Lock" must be "on, " i.e., lit on the keyboard. (Type the "Num Lock"
key once to do this, and you can leave it then forever.)

Holding the "Alt" key down (every time), type the three-number (numbers to
the right, not above) code, then let go the Alt key; voilà--the character
appears!

128 for Ç, 129 ü, 130 é, 131 â, 132 ä, continue on yourself through 165, and
you'll see what you get, also 166 for ª 167 for º, 168 for ¿, 171 for ½, 172
¼, 173 for ¡, 174 for «, 175 for », 224 begins Greek letters, of which 225 ß
doubles for the German ess-tset. What I myself have never found (perhaps
someone can advise me) is upper-case accented A, I, O, U (for Spanish, which
does allow for the accent to be optional on upper case); upper case accented
E (É), also necessary for French, is 144.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA , USA

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28557 · Anselm Lingnau · 1 Dec 2001 11:39:03 · Top

Volleyballjerry@aol.com writes:

> 128 for Ç, 129 ü, 130 é, 131 â, 132 ä, continue on yourself through
> 165, and you'll see what you get, also 166 for ª 167 for º, 168 for
> ¿, 171 for ½, 172 ¼, 173 for ¡, 174 for «, 175 for », 224 begins
> Greek letters, of which 225 ß doubles for the German ess-tset.

I don't know which encoding you're using -- your mail claims ISO-8859-1
(also known as ISO-Latin-1) but the characters I see are all different.
For example, on my machine (which is ISO-8859-1) Ç is 199 and ü is 252.
Presumably you're typing your message in a different encoding and your
mail client converts it to ISO-8859-1 when it is sent out. In
particular, in vanilla ISO-Latin-1, like all the ISO-8859 encodings,
positions 128 through 159 do not contain printable characters -- a fact
that Microsoft, like usual, has seen fit to ignore because they wanted
to get a bunch of extra characters in.

> What I myself have never found (perhaps someone can advise me) is
> upper-case accented A, I, O, U (for Spanish, which does allow for the
> accent to be optional on upper case);

For what it's worth, the respective ISO-Latin-1 positions are 193, 205,
211, and 218. So you can technically use them in your messages, but I'll
be d..ned if I know how you can actually enter them from your keyboard!
Anyway, ISO-Latin-1 is good for Afrikaans, Basque, Catalan, Danish,
Dutch, English, Faeroese, Finnish, French, Galician, German, Icelandic,
Irish, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Scottish, Spanish, and Swedish,
which covers pretty much all of West and Central Europe. There is an
encoding called Latin-2 for East Europe, various combination of Latin
and Cyrillic, Arabic, Greek and Hebrew scripts, an encoding called
Latin-9 which is like Latin-1 except that it contains the new Euro sign
in place of the generic currency symbol at code point 164, and other
sundry stuff. There is also an encoding called Latin-8 which is for
`Celtic' but I don't know exactly what is in it.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau .......................................... anselm@strathspey.org
In order to compose, all you need to do is to remember a tune that no one else
has thought of. -- Robert Schumann (Attrib.)

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28568 · Eric Clyde · 1 Dec 2001 17:27:03 · Top

Anselm:
I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I do know that, at least when you
install Windows on a PC, the default keyboard(s) you install make quite a
difference to what appears on the screen.

For those who are technically inclined, there is quite a long discussion at
http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso8859.html#ISO-8859-1

Eric Clyde, Ottawa

----- Original Message -----
From: Anselm Lingnau <anselm@strathspey.org>
To: <strathspey@strathspey.org>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Volleyballjerry@aol.com writes:

> 128 for Ç, 129 ü, 130 é, 131 â, 132 ä, continue on yourself through
> 165, and you'll see what you get, also 166 for ª 167 for º, 168 for
> ¿, 171 for ½, 172 ¼, 173 for ¡, 174 for «, 175 for », 224 begins
> Greek letters, of which 225 ß doubles for the German ess-tset.

I don't know which encoding you're using -- your mail claims ISO-8859-1
(also known as ISO-Latin-1) but the characters I see are all different.
For example, on my machine (which is ISO-8859-1) Ç is 199 and ü is 252.
Presumably you're typing your message in a different encoding and your
mail client converts it to ISO-8859-1 when it is sent out. In
particular, in vanilla ISO-Latin-1, like all the ISO-8859 encodings,
positions 128 through 159 do not contain printable characters -- a fact
that Microsoft, like usual, has seen fit to ignore because they wanted
to get a bunch of extra characters in.

> What I myself have never found (perhaps someone can advise me) is
> upper-case accented A, I, O, U (for Spanish, which does allow for the
> accent to be optional on upper case);

For what it's worth, the respective ISO-Latin-1 positions are 193, 205,
211, and 218. So you can technically use them in your messages, but I'll
be d..ned if I know how you can actually enter them from your keyboard!
Anyway, ISO-Latin-1 is good for Afrikaans, Basque, Catalan, Danish,
Dutch, English, Faeroese, Finnish, French, Galician, German, Icelandic,
Irish, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Scottish, Spanish, and Swedish,
which covers pretty much all of West and Central Europe. There is an
encoding called Latin-2 for East Europe, various combination of Latin
and Cyrillic, Arabic, Greek and Hebrew scripts, an encoding called
Latin-9 which is like Latin-1 except that it contains the new Euro sign
in place of the generic currency symbol at code point 164, and other
sundry stuff. There is also an encoding called Latin-8 which is for
`Celtic' but I don't know exactly what is in it.

Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ..........................................
anselm@strathspey.org
In order to compose, all you need to do is to remember a tune that no one
else
has thought of. -- Robert Schumann
(Attrib.)

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28570 · Loren Wright · 1 Dec 2001 14:12:35 · Top

This is all very interesting... Apparently I missed the original,
troublesome Goss posting. However, I see all the accented characters in
both Jerry's and Anselm's postings (quoted below), presumably as they were
intended. The funny thing is that I'm using a Mac, and probably most of the
rest of you aren't! If I go to the character set item in my Outlook Express
Format menu, I see that "Western European (ISO)" is checked. (The other
choices include "Western European (Windows)", several foreign languages, and
a couple Unicode settings.) Since one of my programming tasks on my last
job was dealing cross-platform with a spell checker, I know that the actual
character codes for these accented characters are entirely different for Mac
and Windows!

For Mac folks out there who don't know, we have an easier way to enter these
characters: (Windows and Unix folk can tune out now.)

1. In your Apple menu there's an item called "Key Caps." This brings up a
window with a keyboard image. Each key has a character on it. Some of
these characters change as you press modifier keys like shift, option,
control and command. (What's an alt key?!!) If you find the character you
want, press that key and you'll see it appear in the field above the
keyboard. Some of the keys are enclosed with gray and show just the accent.
For these you use the combinations described below.

2. For instance to get a French e with an aigu accent, you hold down the
option key and press e. Nothing appears to happen, but when you press e
again, the é appears, or if you then press a, an á appears. If you hold
down option and press c, you'll get the ç immediately. If you need a German
umlaut, you first press option-u and then a u for ü, an a for ä, or i for ï.
If you do option-a, you'll get the å immediately, or option-s the ß
immediately. Some of the other combinations are more obscure. If you can't
remember what key does what, you can type in the Key Caps window, copy the
character you want, and paste it into your document.

It would be interesting to see how my characters appear on Windows and Unix
machines! (I'm sure I'll hear from some Win folks how complicated this is,
or asking where to find the option or command keys! Well
àèìùò`éáíúäëüïöçåîâîô⥵ñãõ to you!)

Loren Wright
Nashua, NH, USA

> Volleyballjerry@aol.com writes:
>
>> 128 for Ç, 129 ü, 130 é, 131 â, 132 ä, continue on yourself through
>> 165, and you'll see what you get, also 166 for ª 167 for º, 168 for
>> ¿, 171 for ½, 172 ¼, 173 for ¡, 174 for «, 175 for », 224 begins
>> Greek letters, of which 225 ß doubles for the German ess-tset.
>
> I don't know which encoding you're using -- your mail claims ISO-8859-1
> (also known as ISO-Latin-1) but the characters I see are all different.
> For example, on my machine (which is ISO-8859-1) Ç is 199 and ü is 252.
> Presumably you're typing your message in a different encoding and your
> mail client converts it to ISO-8859-1 when it is sent out. In
> particular, in vanilla ISO-Latin-1, like all the ISO-8859 encodings,
> positions 128 through 159 do not contain printable characters -- a fact
> that Microsoft, like usual, has seen fit to ignore because they wanted
> to get a bunch of extra characters in.

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28572 · Volleyballjerry · 1 Dec 2001 18:25:57 · Top

Anselm,

Thanks for taking the time to suggest the numbers 193, 205, 211, 218 for
accented capitals, but on my system they only produce -, -, +, + respectively.

I guess that the numbering system that I previously suggested is not as
universal as I thought. I initially received it from a friends in Leeds,
West Yorkshire (it's called "ASSCII Conversion Chart"), and happily it worked
for me as well. For anyone to whom I've passed it on
personally/individually, it has likewise always worked.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

foreign-language diacritics

Message 28559 · Martin.Sheffield · 1 Dec 2001 11:48:50 · Top

Does anyone really use those unwieldly codes?

On a French keyboard, we have accented vowels, no problem. But one is never
sure what the text will look like when it appears on someone else's screen,
so French e-mailers tend not to bother with accents. The message comes
through clearer without diacritics than if it were interspersed with
gibberish codes (html or ascii). The only ambiguity is with a final "e"
which may give a different sense to a word according to whether it bears an
accent or not. Otherwise, French accents are pretty forgettable. This may
not be the case in other languages, and I imagine, each country will have
found its own way around the problem (eg: "e" instead of umlaut, in German).

Macs seem to deal with diacritics more easily that the other kind.
Martin,
in Grenoble, France.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm
(dance groups, events, some new dances ...)

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28576 · Brian Charlton · 2 Dec 2001 00:14:44 · Top

G'Day, All,

You can find out the keystrokes listed by looking at the character set. In
Windows 98 go to Start, Programmes, Accessories, System Tools, Character
Map. Clicking on the character will show the Alt-key combination for each
character in the set.

I found (for Times New Roman) that the accented capital A are 0193 to 0196.
E, I, O and U are higher numbers. The maximum number that can be used is
0255 (each character set has 256 characters)

I hope this helps,

Brian Charlton,
Sydney, Australia.
(Come to the Australian Winter School this Year - check out the web site:
rscds.org.au.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Volleyballjerry@aol.com [mailto:Volleyballjerry@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2001 11:06 AM
To: strathspey@strathspey.org
Subject: Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Many/most probably know this, but just for those who may not, and I believe
that this works universally:

"Num Lock" must be "on, " i.e., lit on the keyboard. (Type the "Num Lock"
key once to do this, and you can leave it then forever.)

Holding the "Alt" key down (every time), type the three-number (numbers to
the right, not above) code, then let go the Alt key; voilà--the character
appears!

128 for Ç, 129 ü, 130 é, 131 â, 132 ä, continue on yourself through 165, and
you'll see what you get, also 166 for ª 167 for º, 168 for ¿, 171 for ½, 172
¼, 173 for ¡, 174 for «, 175 for », 224 begins Greek letters, of which 225 ß
doubles for the German ess-tset. What I myself have never found (perhaps
someone can advise me) is upper-case accented A, I, O, U (for Spanish, which
does allow for the accent to be optional on upper case); upper case accented
E (É), also necessary for French, is 144.

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA , USA

Goss message / foreign-language diacritics

Message 28582 · Volleyballjerry · 2 Dec 2001 16:48:18 · Top

Many thanks to Brian Charlton for advising about the Alt-key combinations,
viz., diacritics on upper-case, beginning with 0193. I for one had no idea
that there were any four-digit codes beginning with zero. It tried this, and
it works on my system. (Using the zero prefix, I also get repetitions of
other characters that correspond to Anselm's three-digit codes, e.g., 128
still gets me Ç, but 0199 [cf. Anselm's 199] gets me the same Ç.) Thanks
again, Brian!

Robb Quint
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA

Searchin

Message 28588 · Stella F · 3 Dec 2001 16:13:17 · Top

Hi all,
Have been asked if anyone in the SCD community knows the whereabouts of Ken
and Jean Hudson?
Private replies please to:
Stella (stellaf@mediaone.net)
Richmond, VA

Previous thread: Inspiration to dance (was Re: Favorite Strathespeys - why are they favorites?)
Next thread: The Highland Reel? (it's me again)
A Django site.