strathspey Archive: Edinburgh-Etimology

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Edinburgh-Etimology

Message 23169 · Richard Goss · 18 Oct 2000 21:27:13 · Top

Pia,

More on Edinburgh from: William J Watson. <<The History of
the Celtic Place-Names of Scotland>>, Edinburgh: William
Blackwood, 1926.

30
"Ptolemy assigns [towns] to certain tribes."
32
"Alauna of the Votadini" thought to be "Inchkeith in the
Firth of Forth [MacBeth I-1?], but it must have been on the
mainland and on the south side of the Firth."
33
"... identified with the Rock of Edinburgh, later in British
Din Eidyn, in Gaelic Du'n E'ideann."
150
"... According to some accounts [Darerca (or Moninne, or
Sa'rbile) died 517/9] ... came to Britain accompanied by her
maidens, and founded seven churches, including one ... on
Dunedene, now the Rock of Edinburgh. The only trace left of
her mission, or rather of the tradition of it, is the name
Castra Puellarum, Castellum Puellarum, 'the Maidens'
Castle,' applied at one time to Edinburgh Castle."
339
Chapter XI
British Names
340
"First of these is Eidyn. This ... is the correct spelling
in modern Welsh, not Eiddyn or Eiddin. "
"On the Gaelic side we have 'obsessio Etin' ... where Etin
represents O.Welsh Eitin."
"... that Etin here is Edinburgh ...."
"The Pictish Chronicle records that in the reign of Indulfus
(Indolb), 'oppidum Edin' was evacuated by the Angles and
left to the Scots. this is the modern Du'n-e'ideann, Dunedin
or Edinburgh, which correctly represents O.Welsh Eitin, and
O.Ir. Etin."
341
"In the twelfth century Symeon of Durham wrote Edwinesburch;
the adjective Edwinesburgensis occurs in King David's
charter to Holyrood; dinas etwin occurs in aWelsh MS.
assigned to th early fourteenth century."
"Here folk-etymology has connected the name with the english
personal name Eadwine, now Edwin, presumably the king of
Northumbria who was killed in A.D. 633. It is extremely
unlikely that this king had any connection with Edinburgh.
The genuine anglicized form is seen in 'Dunedene, which in
English is Edineburg; in King David's mandate of 1126 'apud
Edenburge'; 1142, Edeneburg (Hol. Chart.); Edeneburgum, 1143
(Lawrie, p.120); Edinburg, c. 1143 (ib., p. 121), etc, and
in the modern Edinburgh. The Old Welsh forms could not
result from Eadwine, whoch would yield Etguin nor could the
O.Irish Eitin, nor the modern -e'ideann."
"The meaning of Eidyn, Du'n-e'ideann, is quite obscure..."
"If Eidyn was the name of a district, as it may have been
..."
"Sir E. Anwyl thought that minit Eidyn was Arthur's Seat."
"Skene considered Mynydd Agned, the scene of one of Arthur's
battles, to be an alternative name for Mynydd Eidyn, but it
would seem that no proof of this can be found."
342
"In early charters ... the Castle of Edinburgh is often
called 'Castellum Puellarum,' 'the Maidens' Castle.'"
"in Adamnan's <<Life of Columba>>, 'in aliquo puellarum
monasterio,' 'in a monastery of maidens,' i.e. of nuns."
"Similarly Bede mentions 'virginum monasterium' in the same
sense."
"The name is first applied to the Castle in the reign of
David I.,and must refer to the legend of St Monenna and her
maidens, according to which she founded seven churches in
Scotland, one of which was in Edinbugh, on the top of the
rock, in honoour of St Michael."
"quinta vero (ecclesia) in Dunedene, quae Anglice lingua
dicta Edinburg."
"apud Edenburgh in montis cacumine in honorem Sancti
Michaelis alteram edificavit ecclesiam."
*****
[NB: Some one has done a computer analysis of church patron
saints and landforms and found that:
Mary has a preference for early earth mother sites
especially
paired mounds looking like breasts {Paps of ...}.
Michael seems to like single mountains, often former
islands:
Edinburgh, Mt San Michelle [France], St Michael's Mount
[Cornwall] etc.
[can't remember this one off hand] but he is equated with
phallic craigs or tors, Glastonbury Tor, etc., and stories
related to Prometheus as light bringer [Luci-fer] to
mankind.
*****
345
"process that British names underwent through the influence
of Gaelic..."
346
"...transition period during which a good deal of
bilingualism is inevitable."
"...change from one language to another is greatly helped
when the two languages are closely akin and have a certain
amount of common vocabulary..."
348
"The same process can be illustrated from Gaelic and
English." Drochaid Charra, 'bridge of the rock-ledge,'
becomes Carr-bridge."
349
"...Dunedin into Edin-burgh is on the same principle."
"... the English speakers knew the meaning of the Gaelic
terms which they translated, as in a much earlier time the
Gaelic speakers knew the meaning of the British terms."
-----
This is a bit negative & frustrating. I like it when a myth
is negated with a replacement, but here we have no
connection between Edinburgh and Edwin but lack a new
answer.
------Original Message------
From: "Pia Walker" <piawalker@totalise.co.uk>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Sent: October 18, 2000 8:44:43 AM GMT
Subject: Re: Folk dancing->Edinburgh

Thank you Richard for that extremely thorough lesson :>) I
actually guide
and interpret for groups of Danish politician when they are
on study tour in
Scotland, and will add your 2 page e-mail to my bundle of
amazing facts and
fiction.

Do you also now that rumour has it, that there is a street
running from the
Palace to the Fortress/Castle whereby the Royals in times of
occupation
could get their valuable, and one would presume themselves
to the Castle
undetected? "Some go the high road and others....." to
paraphrase. The
first bank to build in High street allegedly got permission
to build its
vaults out to this street, so they also could avail
themselves of this
route.

Pia
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Folk dancing->Edinburgh

> Pia,
> Guess I will have to check out Hein.
>
> Re. Edinburgh.
>
> The problem of myths of any provenance is that they are
not
> very sesceptible to reality checks.
>
> Current research questions the connection between
> Dun-eideann [Edinburgh] and the pseudoeponymous Edwin,
King
> [616-632] of Northumbria. Before Edwin, what is now the
> Lothian region was part of a Saxon [Sassanach?, Picts &
> Scots didn't know any Angles] kingdom of Bernicia c. 547.
> From 593 until 632, Bernicia were united under
Aethelfirth,
> and then Edwin. The split on Edwin's death, but a year
later
> Oswald, King of Bernicia ruled Deira [Southern half of the
> short lived kingdom of Northumbria]also. After 651, Deira
> was ruled by subkings.
> It is interesting to note that modern Christianity in
> Britain came from two sources. Roman -> Welsh [Ninian] ->
> Ireland [Patrick] -> Iona [Columba] -> Dalraida -> Lothia
(&
> Pictavia) -> Northumbria (& Germany [Boniface]). Roman ->
> Kent [Augustin of Canterbury]. These two traditions are
> recognized in the two provences of Canterbury and York
> (Northumbria, as in North of the Humber). There was a
> province in between in Mercia which until modern times was
> only a geographical expression. English lobbiests kept St
> Andrews from having an Archbishop during most of
Scotland's
> history and forced Glasgow to give up Cumbria to form the
> sea of Carlisle.
> Technicly, Edinburgh is not a castle but only a fortress
> which was the original town [burgh]. Looking at its plot,
> one sees only a series of fortifications surrounding some
> buildings of various periods. The original town, spilled
> over the wall to the East and formed down the ridge for
one
> [Royal] mile to Hollyrood Priory. In those days, it was
the
> responsibility of each tenement on the high street to
> protect his own back by building a defensive wall at the
> bottom of his land. These connected produced a city wall.
> Halfway down the hill, the circle was closed by a gate
> blocking the entrance to the high street [Nether Bow
{which
> not completely} Has Vanished (because its arch and 2 "D"
> shaped towers are marked in the pavement to this day]. The
> Canon's of St Augustin, from their priory at Holyrood
ruled
> the remaining opened mile as the burgh of Canongate.
> Holyrood House, as a palace has an interesting history
also.
> The original priory, burial place of some Scottish kings
and
> its cloister are North and East of the present palace.
> Today's palace began as a tower/guest house added to the
SW
> corner of the chapel, to which it was connected by a wing
> running East & West. The present palace contains only this
> tower, matched by a fake one on the other side, both
> connected by a square building with a courtyard in the
> middle. Its connection with Holyrood [public] Park is a
> "haha" which allows those in the function rooms of the
> palace to pretend that the public park is an extension of
> their garden.
> If I find out the source of the name "Eideann", I'll let
you
> know as the fortress predates Edwin.
> More myths -- The arms of Holyrood and Canongate show a
> deer's head with a cross [rood] between the antlers. Story
> being that King David built the priory after not shooting
a
> deer because it had a cross between its antlers. This like
> the "in hoc signum vincet" of St Andrews, as another
example
> of a hagiographic story being recycled (v. St Hubert, in
> what is now Belgium). In Scotland the word "gate" [D.
gang]
> means street. So Imagine my surprise when some purist
> desciple of the Society said that, in doing mirror reels
of
> three, I could not touch hands with my partner because
that
> was reserved for the dance "Gate's of Edinburgh" as the
> motif represented the opening and closing of the gates of
> the Castle. Later, I explained to her that in Scots, there
> were two words for gate: yett ("Yetts of Muchart")
refering
> the grills or panels that open and close or bow, refering
to
> the archway. She wasn't even releaved to know that she
could
> really touch her partner's hand any time she wanted to,
not
> just on bars 1-2 & 5-6. Spontaneousness does not sit well
> with those used to programmed social interaction.
>
> Goss
> richard.n.goss@gte.net
>
>

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

Edinburgh-Etimology

Message 23171 · Pia Walker · 18 Oct 2000 22:24:04 · Top

Thank you Richard

Do you ever get the time to dance???

Pia
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>; <piawalker@totalise.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: Edinburgh-Etimology

> Pia,
>
> More on Edinburgh from: William J Watson. <<The History of
> the Celtic Place-Names of Scotland>>, Edinburgh: William
> Blackwood, 1926.
>
> 30
> "Ptolemy assigns [towns] to certain tribes."
> 32
> "Alauna of the Votadini" thought to be "Inchkeith in the
> Firth of Forth [MacBeth I-1?], but it must have been on the
> mainland and on the south side of the Firth."
> 33
> "... identified with the Rock of Edinburgh, later in British
> Din Eidyn, in Gaelic Du'n E'ideann."
> 150
> "... According to some accounts [Darerca (or Moninne, or
> Sa'rbile) died 517/9] ... came to Britain accompanied by her
> maidens, and founded seven churches, including one ... on
> Dunedene, now the Rock of Edinburgh. The only trace left of
> her mission, or rather of the tradition of it, is the name
> Castra Puellarum, Castellum Puellarum, 'the Maidens'
> Castle,' applied at one time to Edinburgh Castle."
> 339
> Chapter XI
> British Names
> 340
> "First of these is Eidyn. This ... is the correct spelling
> in modern Welsh, not Eiddyn or Eiddin. "
> "On the Gaelic side we have 'obsessio Etin' ... where Etin
> represents O.Welsh Eitin."
> "... that Etin here is Edinburgh ...."
> "The Pictish Chronicle records that in the reign of Indulfus
> (Indolb), 'oppidum Edin' was evacuated by the Angles and
> left to the Scots. this is the modern Du'n-e'ideann, Dunedin
> or Edinburgh, which correctly represents O.Welsh Eitin, and
> O.Ir. Etin."
> 341
> "In the twelfth century Symeon of Durham wrote Edwinesburch;
> the adjective Edwinesburgensis occurs in King David's
> charter to Holyrood; dinas etwin occurs in aWelsh MS.
> assigned to th early fourteenth century."
> "Here folk-etymology has connected the name with the english
> personal name Eadwine, now Edwin, presumably the king of
> Northumbria who was killed in A.D. 633. It is extremely
> unlikely that this king had any connection with Edinburgh.
> The genuine anglicized form is seen in 'Dunedene, which in
> English is Edineburg; in King David's mandate of 1126 'apud
> Edenburge'; 1142, Edeneburg (Hol. Chart.); Edeneburgum, 1143
> (Lawrie, p.120); Edinburg, c. 1143 (ib., p. 121), etc, and
> in the modern Edinburgh. The Old Welsh forms could not
> result from Eadwine, whoch would yield Etguin nor could the
> O.Irish Eitin, nor the modern -e'ideann."
> "The meaning of Eidyn, Du'n-e'ideann, is quite obscure..."
> "If Eidyn was the name of a district, as it may have been
> ..."
> "Sir E. Anwyl thought that minit Eidyn was Arthur's Seat."
> "Skene considered Mynydd Agned, the scene of one of Arthur's
> battles, to be an alternative name for Mynydd Eidyn, but it
> would seem that no proof of this can be found."
> 342
> "In early charters ... the Castle of Edinburgh is often
> called 'Castellum Puellarum,' 'the Maidens' Castle.'"
> "in Adamnan's <<Life of Columba>>, 'in aliquo puellarum
> monasterio,' 'in a monastery of maidens,' i.e. of nuns."
> "Similarly Bede mentions 'virginum monasterium' in the same
> sense."
> "The name is first applied to the Castle in the reign of
> David I.,and must refer to the legend of St Monenna and her
> maidens, according to which she founded seven churches in
> Scotland, one of which was in Edinbugh, on the top of the
> rock, in honoour of St Michael."
> "quinta vero (ecclesia) in Dunedene, quae Anglice lingua
> dicta Edinburg."
> "apud Edenburgh in montis cacumine in honorem Sancti
> Michaelis alteram edificavit ecclesiam."
> *****
> [NB: Some one has done a computer analysis of church patron
> saints and landforms and found that:
> Mary has a preference for early earth mother sites
> especially
> paired mounds looking like breasts {Paps of ...}.
> Michael seems to like single mountains, often former
> islands:
> Edinburgh, Mt San Michelle [France], St Michael's Mount
> [Cornwall] etc.
> [can't remember this one off hand] but he is equated with
> phallic craigs or tors, Glastonbury Tor, etc., and stories
> related to Prometheus as light bringer [Luci-fer] to
> mankind.
> *****
> 345
> "process that British names underwent through the influence
> of Gaelic..."
> 346
> "...transition period during which a good deal of
> bilingualism is inevitable."
> "...change from one language to another is greatly helped
> when the two languages are closely akin and have a certain
> amount of common vocabulary..."
> 348
> "The same process can be illustrated from Gaelic and
> English." Drochaid Charra, 'bridge of the rock-ledge,'
> becomes Carr-bridge."
> 349
> "...Dunedin into Edin-burgh is on the same principle."
> "... the English speakers knew the meaning of the Gaelic
> terms which they translated, as in a much earlier time the
> Gaelic speakers knew the meaning of the British terms."
> -----
> This is a bit negative & frustrating. I like it when a myth
> is negated with a replacement, but here we have no
> connection between Edinburgh and Edwin but lack a new
> answer.
> ------Original Message------
> From: "Pia Walker" <piawalker@totalise.co.uk>
> To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
> Sent: October 18, 2000 8:44:43 AM GMT
> Subject: Re: Folk dancing->Edinburgh
>
>
> Thank you Richard for that extremely thorough lesson :>) I
> actually guide
> and interpret for groups of Danish politician when they are
> on study tour in
> Scotland, and will add your 2 page e-mail to my bundle of
> amazing facts and
> fiction.
>
> Do you also now that rumour has it, that there is a street
> running from the
> Palace to the Fortress/Castle whereby the Royals in times of
> occupation
> could get their valuable, and one would presume themselves
> to the Castle
> undetected? "Some go the high road and others....." to
> paraphrase. The
> first bank to build in High street allegedly got permission
> to build its
> vaults out to this street, so they also could avail
> themselves of this
> route.
>
> Pia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net>
> To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Folk dancing->Edinburgh
>
>
> > Pia,
> > Guess I will have to check out Hein.
> >
> > Re. Edinburgh.
> >
> > The problem of myths of any provenance is that they are
> not
> > very sesceptible to reality checks.
> >
> > Current research questions the connection between
> > Dun-eideann [Edinburgh] and the pseudoeponymous Edwin,
> King
> > [616-632] of Northumbria. Before Edwin, what is now the
> > Lothian region was part of a Saxon [Sassanach?, Picts &
> > Scots didn't know any Angles] kingdom of Bernicia c. 547.
> > From 593 until 632, Bernicia were united under
> Aethelfirth,
> > and then Edwin. The split on Edwin's death, but a year
> later
> > Oswald, King of Bernicia ruled Deira [Southern half of the
> > short lived kingdom of Northumbria]also. After 651, Deira
> > was ruled by subkings.
> > It is interesting to note that modern Christianity in
> > Britain came from two sources. Roman -> Welsh [Ninian] ->
> > Ireland [Patrick] -> Iona [Columba] -> Dalraida -> Lothia
> (&
> > Pictavia) -> Northumbria (& Germany [Boniface]). Roman ->
> > Kent [Augustin of Canterbury]. These two traditions are
> > recognized in the two provences of Canterbury and York
> > (Northumbria, as in North of the Humber). There was a
> > province in between in Mercia which until modern times was
> > only a geographical expression. English lobbiests kept St
> > Andrews from having an Archbishop during most of
> Scotland's
> > history and forced Glasgow to give up Cumbria to form the
> > sea of Carlisle.
> > Technicly, Edinburgh is not a castle but only a fortress
> > which was the original town [burgh]. Looking at its plot,
> > one sees only a series of fortifications surrounding some
> > buildings of various periods. The original town, spilled
> > over the wall to the East and formed down the ridge for
> one
> > [Royal] mile to Hollyrood Priory. In those days, it was
> the
> > responsibility of each tenement on the high street to
> > protect his own back by building a defensive wall at the
> > bottom of his land. These connected produced a city wall.
> > Halfway down the hill, the circle was closed by a gate
> > blocking the entrance to the high street [Nether Bow
> {which
> > not completely} Has Vanished (because its arch and 2 "D"
> > shaped towers are marked in the pavement to this day]. The
> > Canon's of St Augustin, from their priory at Holyrood
> ruled
> > the remaining opened mile as the burgh of Canongate.
> > Holyrood House, as a palace has an interesting history
> also.
> > The original priory, burial place of some Scottish kings
> and
> > its cloister are North and East of the present palace.
> > Today's palace began as a tower/guest house added to the
> SW
> > corner of the chapel, to which it was connected by a wing
> > running East & West. The present palace contains only this
> > tower, matched by a fake one on the other side, both
> > connected by a square building with a courtyard in the
> > middle. Its connection with Holyrood [public] Park is a
> > "haha" which allows those in the function rooms of the
> > palace to pretend that the public park is an extension of
> > their garden.
> > If I find out the source of the name "Eideann", I'll let
> you
> > know as the fortress predates Edwin.
> > More myths -- The arms of Holyrood and Canongate show a
> > deer's head with a cross [rood] between the antlers. Story
> > being that King David built the priory after not shooting
> a
> > deer because it had a cross between its antlers. This like
> > the "in hoc signum vincet" of St Andrews, as another
> example
> > of a hagiographic story being recycled (v. St Hubert, in
> > what is now Belgium). In Scotland the word "gate" [D.
> gang]
> > means street. So Imagine my surprise when some purist
> > desciple of the Society said that, in doing mirror reels
> of
> > three, I could not touch hands with my partner because
> that
> > was reserved for the dance "Gate's of Edinburgh" as the
> > motif represented the opening and closing of the gates of
> > the Castle. Later, I explained to her that in Scots, there
> > were two words for gate: yett ("Yetts of Muchart")
> refering
> > the grills or panels that open and close or bow, refering
> to
> > the archway. She wasn't even releaved to know that she
> could
> > really touch her partner's hand any time she wanted to,
> not
> > just on bars 1-2 & 5-6. Spontaneousness does not sit well
> > with those used to programmed social interaction.
> >
> > Goss
> > richard.n.goss@gte.net
> >
> >
>
> Goss
> richard.n.goss@gte.net
>
>

Edinburgh-Etimology

Message 23175 · Richard Goss · 19 Oct 2000 05:22:55 · Top

Answer, simpler than you think.

1. Most of this has been written over the pastseveral years.
2. A lot of it comes out of my head, though it is easy to
fact
check since I am sitting in the middle of a small library.
2. I work at home on my computer -- editing this stuff while
wait for other jobs to finish.
3. Recovering from three strokes, so am neither dancing nor
do I
have a class at present.

Edinburgh-Etimology

Message 23176 · Pia Walker · 19 Oct 2000 13:12:03 · Top

Oops!

Sorry Richard - I am well known for having "feet in mouth" disease, with
such a big mouth, that I can actually change from first to second position
there. - can I claim ignorance? - obviously strokes has not affected your
abilty to put words together - Hope you will soon be able to get away from
PC and join the rest on the dance floor.

Pia
Very red faced
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: Edinburgh-Etimology

> Answer, simpler than you think.
>
> 1. Most of this has been written over the pastseveral years.
> 2. A lot of it comes out of my head, though it is easy to
> fact
> check since I am sitting in the middle of a small library.
> 2. I work at home on my computer -- editing this stuff while
> wait for other jobs to finish.
> 3. Recovering from three strokes, so am neither dancing nor
> do I
> have a class at present.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net>
>

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