strathspey Archive: Queen

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Queen

Message 22450 · RuddBaron · 9 Sep 2000 16:21:38 · Top

Has anyone else out there heard Americans at Scottish events refer to Queen=20
Elizabeth II as "Our Queen?" I didn't think we had a Queen over here...

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22465 · RAbend7731 · 10 Sep 2000 00:47:50 · Top

I always refer to her as "The Queen" (is there any other?). I have been
known to sing "God Save the Queen" at Scottish events. I figure if George
Washington could drink the loyal toast in 1775 when he was commander-in-chief
of the army of rebellion, I can "God Save" George's descendant!

Rosemary Abend
(born in the USA)

Queen

Message 22467 · Carfuffle · 10 Sep 2000 01:28:16 · Top

Not only do I "Save the Queen," I sing the Canadian national anthem. I rather
like it!

Nadene Hunter, Dansville NY
(also born in the USA)

Queen

Message 22475 · RuddBaron · 10 Sep 2000 03:00:27 · Top

In a message dated 9/9/00 4:28:37 PM Central Daylight Time, Carfuffle@aol.co=
m=20
writes:

<< Not only do I "Save the Queen," I sing the Canadian national anthem. I=20
rather=20
like it! >>

--- That's different. That's singing national anthems of our allies which is=
=20
a perfectly acceptable form of respect. For instance, the Royal Regiment of=20
Canada usually comes down to Stone Mountain for the games, and their Drum=20
Major renders the proper salute during all of the national anthems, includin=
g=20
the Star Spangled Banner. He also salutes every flag, including ours. What=20=
I=20
was referring to was how people call Elizabeth II (who, as someone else=20
pointed out, is really Elizabeth II of England, but Elizabeth I of the Unite=
d=20
Kingdom) are "our" Queen. That's like a Brit calling Bill Clinton their=20
President. The other thing is how people call her "H.M. the Queen." Now just=
=20
which Queen is it to which they are referring? There are several H.M. the=20
Queens out there.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22477 · Thomas G. Mungall, III · 10 Sep 2000 05:09:50 · Top

I wonder how many realise that after the American Revolution Gen. George
Washington and others sent a deligation to Prince Charles Edward Stuart
(Bonnie Prince Charlie) and asked him to wear the crown of America! He
declined saying in essence that he was too old but if it had been 10 to 15
years earlier he would have accepted. The transcript of the conversation
between the Americans and Prince Charles is interesting to read. There were
many Americans at that time who were not sold on having a Republic. George
Washington was among these!

Tom Mungall
----- Original Message -----
From: <RAbend7731@aol.com>

> I always refer to her as "The Queen" (is there any other?). I have been
> known to sing "God Save the Queen" at Scottish events. I figure if George
> Washington could drink the loyal toast in 1775 when he was
commander-in-chief
> of the army of rebellion, I can "God Save" George's descendant!
>
> Rosemary Abend
> (born in the USA)
>
> --
> RAbend7731@aol.com
>

Queen

Message 22479 · RuddBaron · 10 Sep 2000 06:05:10 · Top

In a message dated 9/9/00 8:10:38 PM Central Daylight Time, atheling@home.co=
m=20
writes:

<< > I always refer to her as "The Queen" (is there any other?). I have bee=
n
> known to sing "God Save the Queen" at Scottish events. I figure if Georg=
e
> Washington could drink the loyal toast in 1775 when he was
commander-in-chief
> of the army of rebellion, I can "God Save" George's descendant! >>

--- Yes, indeed there are other Queens. There is at least one in the=20
Scandenavian countries. There is the Queen of Jordan. There was an Empress o=
f=20
Ethiopia, but now just a Princess as the constitutional monarchy is in exile=
.=20
I would, however, be interested to know about Washington drinking a toast to=
=20
the King. It must be remembered that we were British at the time and were=20
fighting for the rights we believed we had as British. Given the fact that=20
Washington would likely have been hanged as a traitor if caught, I doubt=20
seriously he toasted the King.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22480 · RuddBaron · 10 Sep 2000 06:07:39 · Top

In a message dated 9/9/00 8:10:38 PM Central Daylight Time, atheling@home.co=
m=20
writes:

<< I wonder how many realise that after the American Revolution Gen. George
Washington and others sent a deligation to Prince Charles Edward Stuart
(Bonnie Prince Charlie) and asked him to wear the crown of America! He
declined saying in essence that he was too old but if it had been 10 to 15
years earlier he would have accepted. The transcript of the conversation
between the Americans and Prince Charles is interesting to read. There were
many Americans at that time who were not sold on having a Republic. George
Washington was among these!
=20
--- I would be interested in more data on this subject. As they didn't know=20
anything other than a monarchy, I'm sure many were unsure about proceeding i=
n=20
any other fashion. I'm sure we all know Washington was offered the job of=20
King but turned it down in favor of a Republican form of government. But=20
surely no one regrets their decision.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22481 · RuddBaron · 10 Sep 2000 06:13:36 · Top

Here...

"Freeing the colonies from the British yoke was not Washington's only=20
stunning achievement. He also saw his duty to oversee the United States of=20
America's ascent into democracy. And so, for eight more difficult and=20
discouraging years as the first President of the United States, Washington=20
struggled with internecine disputes within his cabinet and among the states.=
=20
It would appear that he and he alone kept the new nation from falling into=20
monarchy or dictatorship, as had all previously liberated regions in Europe=20
and Asia."

Excerpted from Please Understand Me II=20

Copyrighted =A9 1997 David Keirsey, All rights Reserved

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22510 · Doug Mills · 11 Sep 2000 02:15:56 · Top

Rudd - If it's a Scottish event, shouldn't they be toasting Queen
Elizabeth I of Scotland?

In that vein, a little something to lighten up your Monday: (English folk=
may
want to pass on to the next message!)

Edward Longshanks (Edward I of England) comes to Scotland to conquer the
Scots. He brings 4,000 men with him. As he nears the battlefield there
suddenly appears a solitary figure on the crest of the hill. A short,
ginger-haired guy in a kilt.

"Hammer o' the Scots?" yells the wee Scottish guy on the hill. "Come up h=
ere,
ya English bastard, and I'll give ye a hammerin'!"

Edward turns to his commander. "Send 20 men to deal with that
little Scottish upstart, there's a good chap!", he says. The commander se=
nds
twenty of his best men over the hill to kill the Scotsman.

Ten minutes later, at the crest of the hill, the little Scot appears agai=
n. "Ya
English
bampots!", he yells. "Come on the rest of ye!! Come on, I'll have ye a'!!=
!"

Edward is getting somewhat annoyed. He turns to his commander. "Send
100 men to kill that little guttersnipe!" The commander sends a hundred m=
an
over the hill to do the job.

Ten minutes later, the little Scot appears at the top of the hill once mo=
re,
his hair all sticking up, his shirt a wee bit torn. "Ya English SCUM!", h=
e
yells. "I'm just warming up!! Come and get me, ya English gits!!"

Edward losses patience. "Commander, take 400 men and personally WIPE HIM =
OFF
THE EARTH!", he yells. The commander gulps, but leads four hundred men on
horseback over the crest of the hill.

Ten minutes later, the little Scotsman is back. His clothing is all torn,=
his
face is covered in blood, gore and Irn-Bru. "Is that the best ye can do??=
?
You're bloody WIMMIN!!! Come on!! Come and have a go ya bunch of Jessies!=
!!",
he yells.

Edward turns to his second in command. "Take 1000 men over that hill and
don't come back till you've killed him!" he commands. The second in comma=
nd
gathers the men and they ride off over the hill to their fate.

Ten minutes later, one of the English troops appears back at the top of t=
he
hill. He's
covered in blood and his clothes are all torn. "Your Majesty!!" he yells.
"It's a trap!!! There's TWO of them!!!

Cheers

Doug Mills
Christchurch, New Zealand

RuddBaron@aol.com wrote:

> Has anyone else out there heard Americans at Scottish events refer to Q=
ueen
> Elizabeth II as "Our Queen?" I didn't think we had a Queen over here...
>
> s/RBJ
>
> ***************************************************************
> Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
> Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich
>
> --
> RuddBaron@aol.com

Queen

Message 22512 · Mike Briggs · 11 Sep 2000 02:37:55 · Top

Can't resist. I'm a former Brit and a longtime American. At the TAC
summer workshop dinner some years ago, the "loyal toast" was proposed.
I rose and drank to the Queen of Canada. Then (presumably in some kind
of spirit of equal treatment) someone proposed a toast to "the President
of the United States, Ronald Reagan." At which I and several other
Americans stayed seated with our glasses nowhere near our lips.
Apparently those arranging the dinner didn't get the difference between
a symbolic hereditary head of state and a controversial politician.

Mike
--
---------------------------------------------
Norma Briggs Voice: 608 835 0914
Michael J. Briggs Fax: 608 835 0924
BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
1519 Storytown Rd Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
---------------------------------------------
HTTP://BRIGGSLAW.HOMESTEAD.COM
---------------------------------------------

Queen

Message 22513 · RuddBaron · 11 Sep 2000 02:44:56 · Top

In a message dated 9/10/00 5:16:34 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
radagast@cyberxpress.co.nz writes:

<< Rudd - If it's a Scottish event, shouldn't they be toasting Queen
Elizabeth I of Scotland? >>

--- Or Elizabeth I of the United Kingdom. However, she uses Elizabeth II of=20
the UK, but try telling her it's incorrect. Never let history stand in the=20
way... :)

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22514 · RuddBaron · 11 Sep 2000 02:50:35 · Top

Nevertheless, at the time Ronald Reagan was the duly-elected President of th=
e=20
US, and as such was the Head of State of America. Unlike the UK where the=20
head of state and head of government are different, they are the same person=
=20
in this country. When you toast the President, you are toasting the venerabl=
e=20
office, not the man (even if his name is used). It is a sign of respect for=20
our senior national and diplomatic office, and a sign of respect for the US,=
=20
just like saluting the flag. Given William J. Clinton's disgrace of the=20
office, however, I have recently heard toasts that specifically say "To the=20
Office of the President of the United States." I hope starting with the nex=
t=20
President, however, it returns to "To the President of the United States."

In a message dated 9/10/00 5:38:36 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
brigglaw@execpc.com writes:

<< Can't resist. I'm a former Brit and a longtime American. At the TAC
summer workshop dinner some years ago, the "loyal toast" was proposed.=20
I rose and drank to the Queen of Canada. Then (presumably in some kind
of spirit of equal treatment) someone proposed a toast to "the President
of the United States, Ronald Reagan." At which I and several other
Americans stayed seated with our glasses nowhere near our lips.=20
Apparently those arranging the dinner didn't get the difference between
a symbolic hereditary head of state and a controversial politician. >>

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22524 · hways · 11 Sep 2000 04:38:38 · Top

RuddBaron@aol.com wrote:

> , I have recently heard toasts that specifically say "To the
> Office of the President of the United States."

One we used regularly during the Nixon administration.

Harry

Queen

Message 22528 · RuddBaron · 11 Sep 2000 05:33:45 · Top

In a message dated 9/10/00 7:39:08 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
hways@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< One we used regularly during the Nixon administration.
>>
--- True enough.

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22529 · Bert Post · 11 Sep 2000 05:43:24 · Top

I cannot resist either.

Not responding to a toast to a head of state, symbolic of that state even
if elected, is discourteous to that state. More; it is insulting not to
respond to a toast, according to generally accepted protocol.

Bert Post

----------
> From: Michael Briggs <brigglaw@execpc.com>
> To: Strathspey server <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
> Subject: Queen
> Date: Sunday, September 10, 2000 6:36 PM
>
> Can't resist. I'm a former Brit and a longtime American. At the TAC
> summer workshop dinner some years ago, the "loyal toast" was proposed.
> I rose and drank to the Queen of Canada. Then (presumably in some kind
> of spirit of equal treatment) someone proposed a toast to "the President
> of the United States, Ronald Reagan." At which I and several other
> Americans stayed seated with our glasses nowhere near our lips.
> Apparently those arranging the dinner didn't get the difference between
> a symbolic hereditary head of state and a controversial politician.
>
> Mike
> --
> ---------------------------------------------
> Norma Briggs Voice: 608 835 0914
> Michael J. Briggs Fax: 608 835 0924
> BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
> 1519 Storytown Rd Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
> ---------------------------------------------
> HTTP://BRIGGSLAW.HOMESTEAD.COM
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Michael Briggs <brigglaw@execpc.com>

Queen

Message 22530 · RuddBaron · 11 Sep 2000 05:58:02 · Top

In a message dated Sun, 10 Sep 2000 9:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Bert Post" <bertpost@vianet.on.ca> writes:

Not responding to a toast to a head of state, symbolic of that state even
if elected, is discourteous to that state. More; it is insulting not to
respond to a toast, according to generally accepted protocol.

--- Now if the toast was just to "Bill Clinton" without any mention of "President," well, I suppose we'd have to forgive anyone who didnt respond. :) Not to drag politics into to this list... :) Really, the whole thing is most unfortunate. Perhaps if he were a Scottish country dancer, things would have been different... Just my optimism. :)

s/RBJ

Queen

Message 22544 · jane hewitt · 11 Sep 2000 10:57:24 · Top

Hi Doug

You have brightened my day with your Scots story; I love it

Jane Hewitt
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

Queen

Message 22562 · Jodie Hebert · 11 Sep 2000 18:17:57 · Top

"Our Queen" surely refers to her patronage of the Royal Scottish
Country Dance Society -- the reason we are all on this list. I doubt
Bill Clinton is an RSCDS member, although he knows a few slick
moves!
Jodie

Date sent: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:58:32 EDT
From: RuddBaron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Queen
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de

> In a message dated 9/9/00 4:28:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Carfuffle@aol.com writes:
>
> << Not only do I "Save the Queen," I sing the Canadian national
> anthem. I rather like it! >>
>
> --- That's different. That's singing national anthems of our allies
> which is a perfectly acceptable form of respect. For instance, the
> Royal Regiment of Canada usually comes down to Stone Mountain for the
> games, and their Drum Major renders the proper salute during all of
> the national anthems, including the Star Spangled Banner. He also
> salutes every flag, including ours. What I was referring to was how
> people call Elizabeth II (who, as someone else pointed out, is really
> Elizabeth II of England, but Elizabeth I of the United Kingdom) are
> "our" Queen. That's like a Brit calling Bill Clinton their President.
> The other thing is how people call her "H.M. the Queen." Now just
> which Queen is it to which they are referring? There are several H.M.
> the Queens out there.
>
> s/RBJ
>
>
> ***************************************************************
> Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
> Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich
>
> --
> RuddBaron@aol.com
>

Jodie Parker-Hebert
McLennan Library, Collections Dept.
McGill University, Montreal, PQ Canada
Voice: 514-398-4782 FAX: 514-398-7184

Queen

Message 22703 · Ian Brockbank · 15 Sep 2000 17:07:36 · Top

Hi Jodie,

> "Our Queen" surely refers to her patronage of the Royal Scottish
> Country Dance Society -- the reason we are all on this list.

I would just point out that not all Scottish Dancers (or even Scottish
Country Dancers) are RSCDS members. And I doubt her patronage of
the RSCDS has been the most significant aspect of SCD's popularity.
I do admit that without the work done by the society formed as the SCDS
in 1923, SCD would probably not be a separate dance style from Reeling
and/or ceilidh, and probably would not be as popular or as universal,
but please do not assume all SCDers are RSCDSers.

Ian

Who is an RSCDS member and a branch committee member, as well as a
member of a non-RSCDS society which contains members who would object
most strongly to be described as RSCDS dancers. Which is just to say
I'm not trying to be anti-RSCDS, just raise awareness.
--
IndigoVision Ltd http://www.indigovision.com/
The Edinburgh Technopole, Bush Loan, Edinburgh, EH26 0PJ
Tel: [+44] (0)131 475 7200 Fax: [+44] (0)131 475 7201
Personal: ian@scottishdance.net http://www.scottishdance.net
Feed the world: http://www.thehungersite.com/

Queen

Message 22734 · Richard Goss · 16 Sep 2000 18:12:28 · Top

There is some confusion as to the "Royal" of RSCDS.

We are not a "Royal" society, so our members have no right to put RSCDS
after our name. When, then Princess, Elizabeth became an SCDS patron, it was
just a matter of spreading the royals around worthy causes. I am not sure
that the RSCDS even has the right to be called <R>SCDS. It is possible that
Miss Milligan just assumed the <R>.

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

By the way, you left off "county dancing" where they walk their dances, [and
circles as an analogue to slip step], wear heeled shoes and have a smaller
CD repertoire along with quadrilles and traditional couple (round dances).
RG

Queen

Message 22738 · Rebecca Sager · 17 Sep 2000 02:17:53 · Top

The "Royal" designation was officially bestowed on the Society by King
George VI in 1951. Go ahead and use it.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

Queen

Message 22739 · RuddBaron · 17 Sep 2000 04:01:45 · Top

In a message dated 9/16/00 5:18:38 PM Central Daylight Time, bsager3@juno.co=
m=20
writes:

<< The "Royal" designation was officially bestowed on the Society by King
George VI in 1951. Go ahead and use it. >>

--- And why we on this side of the pond care what a Germanic, Hanoverian Kin=
g=20
bestows on the RSCDS, I don't know.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22741 · Thomas G. Mungall, III · 17 Sep 2000 06:12:39 · Top

I was under the impression that the Royal patronage came from the Queen
Mother who is a long time Scottish Country dancer.

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Goss" <richard.n.goss@gte.net>

> There is some confusion as to the "Royal" of RSCDS.
>
> We are not a "Royal" society, so our members have no right to put RSCDS
> after our name. When, then Princess, Elizabeth became an SCDS patron, it
was
> just a matter of spreading the royals around worthy causes. I am not sure
> that the RSCDS even has the right to be called <R>SCDS. It is possible
that
> Miss Milligan just assumed the <R>.
>
> Goss
> richard.n.goss@gte.net

Queen

Message 22750 · Rebecca Sager · 17 Sep 2000 18:43:13 · Top

Hey Rudd - you started this thread.
In spite of my English birth, I don't care about the topic one way or the
other. I was merely offering a factual statement to correct someone
else's misinformation.

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:01:05 EDT RuddBaron@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 9/16/00 5:18:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
> bsager3@juno.com
> writes:
>
> << The "Royal" designation was officially bestowed on the Society by
> King George VI in 1951. Go ahead and use it. >>
>
> --- And why we on this side of the pond care what a Germanic,
> Hanoverian King bestows on the RSCDS, I don't know.
>
> s/RBJ
>
> ***************************************************************
> Slàinte mhath, h-uile latha, na chì 'snach fhaic. Slàinte mhòr.
> Reàbhdtherfòrd Beurach MacIain à Na Stiùbhartaich
>
> --
> RuddBaron@aol.com
>
>

Queen

Message 22751 · Richard Goss · 17 Sep 2000 19:08:13 · Top

Tom,

Yes, the queen mum, was a long time dancer, and there are specific records
in Perth indicating not only that Glamis castle had the regular services of
a music-dancing teacher.

There are even records as to what was taught, including dances to
recognizably Scottish tunes.

But she was at least 21 years of age when the Society was found and the term
"Scottish Country Dancing" [prob. a Milligan invention] as opposed to
"Country Dances as Danced in Scotland" did not appear until the queen mother
was in her 40s.

------Original Message------
From: "Thomas G. Mungall, III" <atheling@home.com>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Sent: September 17, 2000 2:12:40 AM GMT
Subject: Queen

I was under the impression that the Royal patronage came from the Queen
Mother who is a long time Scottish Country dancer.

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Goss" <richard.n.goss@gte.net>

> There is some confusion as to the "Royal" of RSCDS.
>
> We are not a "Royal" society, so our members have no right to put RSCDS
> after our name. When, then Princess, Elizabeth became an SCDS patron, it
was
> just a matter of spreading the royals around worthy causes. I am not sure
> that the RSCDS even has the right to be called <R>SCDS. It is possible
that
> Miss Milligan just assumed the <R>.
>
> Goss
> richard.n.goss@gte.net

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

Queen

Message 22765 · ron.mackey · 18 Sep 2000 01:30:22 · Top

>
> Yes, the queen mum, was a long time dancer, and there are specific records
> in Perth indicating not only that Glamis castle had the regular services of
> a music-dancing teacher.
>
> There are even records as to what was taught, including dances to
> recognizably Scottish tunes.

Does anyone remember Mae Jarka (spelling?) who used to teach around
the Brighton area many years ago? I seem to remember that when she
moved back to her house near Glamis she used to attend regularly when
the Q.Mum was there to give dance instructions before a Ball and also
entertained H.M. to tea on occasion. Very typical.
Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

Queen

Message 22766 · SallenNic · 18 Sep 2000 02:24:45 · Top

In a message dated 17/9/2000 1:02:20 am, RuddBaron@aol.com writes:

>And why we on this side of the pond care what a Germanic, Hanoverian King
>
>
>bestows on the RSCDS, I don't know.

I can understand your reluctance to accept what a British Monarch offers
(though by your very joining of a Scottish - British - Society, some degree
of acceptance of its mores would seem to be implicit), but please do not
refer to George VI as a "Germanic, Hanoverian King": that is thoroughly
inaccurate.
Nicolas B., Lanark,
Scotland.

Queen

Message 22767 · RuddBaron · 18 Sep 2000 02:42:30 · Top

First, let me state that I do have a great deal of respect for George VI and=
=20
his wife. However, he is indeed Hanoverian and Germanic. The house name=20
started as Hanover, as George I was Elector of Hanover and later King of=20
Hanover (if memory serves). The Hanoverian arms used to be borne within an=20
inescutcheon of pretense upon the royal arms of the monarch of the UK, first=
=20
surmounted by an elector's bonnet and later by a crown. When Victoria marrie=
d=20
Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, the house name changed to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha wit=
h=20
Edward, son of Victoria. If memory serves again, this is also a Germanic=20
name. The House name remained as such until WWI at which time it was believe=
d=20
that a more British and less German name should be used. The King came up=20
with the name "Windsor," which is, of course, the current house name. A mere=
=20
name change does not mean that they are not Hanoverian or Germanic.=20

As for joining a Scottish society, I hardly think it indicates acceptance or=
=20
interest in what a British monarch does as such. I am in such groups because=
=20
I am very fond of my British heritage and enjoy perpetuating it in America.=20
However, that hardly means I promote the Queen of England as "our Queen."=20
(The saying which prompted me to start this discussion.) As an example, whe=
n=20
Elizabeth II gave an honorary knighthood to George Bush (I have be privilege=
d=20
to see his insignia), I am indeed interested in as much as I have the highes=
t=20
respect for both people and it is a very nice international gesture to a=20
former President, thus making it an honor for our country. However, a monarc=
h=20
making the Scottish Country Dance Society the Royal Scottish Country Dance=20
Society makes little difference to me...especially coming from a foreign hea=
d=20
of state...and especially a foreign head of state descended from the=20
Hanoverians, the enemy of Stewarts/Jacobites. That's my opinion.=20
But..."Royal" is certainly good marketing. :)

s/RBJ

In a message dated 9/17/00 5:25:19 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
SallenNic@aol.com writes:

<< I can understand your reluctance to accept what a British Monarch offers=20
(though by your very joining of a Scottish - British - Society, some degree=
=20
of acceptance of its mores would seem to be implicit), but please do not=20
refer to George VI as a "Germanic, Hanoverian King": that is thoroughly=20
inaccurate.
Nicolas B., Lanark,=20
Scotland. >>

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22773 · Thomas G. Mungall, III · 18 Sep 2000 08:12:12 · Top

This is silly! The Queen Mum is SCOTTISH!

That makes the present Queen at least half Scottish.

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: <RuddBaron@aol.com>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Queen

First, let me state that I do have a great deal of respect for George VI and
his wife. However, he is indeed Hanoverian and Germanic. The house name
started as Hanover, as George I was Elector of Hanover and later King of
Hanover (if memory serves). The Hanoverian arms used to be borne within an
inescutcheon of pretense upon the royal arms of the monarch of the UK, first
surmounted by an elector's bonnet and later by a crown. When Victoria
married
Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, the house name changed to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
with
Edward, son of Victoria. If memory serves again, this is also a Germanic
name. The House name remained as such until WWI at which time it was
believed
that a more British and less German name should be used. The King came up
with the name "Windsor," which is, of course, the current house name. A mere
name change does not mean that they are not Hanoverian or Germanic.

As for joining a Scottish society, I hardly think it indicates acceptance or
interest in what a British monarch does as such. I am in such groups because
I am very fond of my British heritage and enjoy perpetuating it in America.
However, that hardly means I promote the Queen of England as "our Queen."
(The saying which prompted me to start this discussion.) As an example,
when
Elizabeth II gave an honorary knighthood to George Bush (I have be
privileged
to see his insignia), I am indeed interested in as much as I have the
highest
respect for both people and it is a very nice international gesture to a
former President, thus making it an honor for our country. However, a
monarch
making the Scottish Country Dance Society the Royal Scottish Country Dance
Society makes little difference to me...especially coming from a foreign
head
of state...and especially a foreign head of state descended from the
Hanoverians, the enemy of Stewarts/Jacobites. That's my opinion.
But..."Royal" is certainly good marketing. :)

s/RBJ

In a message dated 9/17/00 5:25:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
SallenNic@aol.com writes:

<< I can understand your reluctance to accept what a British Monarch offers
(though by your very joining of a Scottish - British - Society, some degree
of acceptance of its mores would seem to be implicit), but please do not
refer to George VI as a "Germanic, Hanoverian King": that is thoroughly
inaccurate.
Nicolas B., Lanark,
Scotland. >>

***************************************************************
Slàinte mhath, h-uile latha, na chì 'snach fhaic. Slàinte mhòr.
Reàbhdtherfòrd Beurach MacIain à Na Stiùbhartaich

--
RuddBaron@aol.com

Queen

Message 22775 · Dewdney Andrew · 18 Sep 2000 11:19:38 · Top

Quite, I believe her family have been in possession of the lands around
Glamis since the 1300s. Makes them pretty Scottish, if you ask me, but as an
ex-pat in Germany, it has become quite clear that our Royal family stem from
Hanover. And old Albert of course, Herzog von Saxe-Coburg, who has a nice
statue in the market square in Coburg, saying what a nice chap he was and
that he was the Prince of the region and all that, oh, and also married 'a
queen of England'.
Puts it into perspective.
Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas G. Mungall, III [SMTP:atheling@home.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 6:12 AM
> To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
> Subject: Re: Queen
>
> This is silly! The Queen Mum is SCOTTISH!
>
> That makes the present Queen at least half Scottish.
>
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <RuddBaron@aol.com>
> To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Queen
>
>

Queen

Message 22777 · Chris & Linda Gaul · 18 Sep 2000 14:16:19 · Top

> Does anyone remember Mae Jarka (spelling?) who used to teach
around
> the Brighton area many years ago? I seem to remember that
when she
> moved back to her house near Glamis she used to attend
regularly when
> the Q.Mum was there to give dance instructions before a Ball
and also
> entertained H.M. to tea on occasion. Very typical.

It to put the record straight - it was May Yarker. And she
didn't live any where near Glamis, she lives at Scrabster on the
north coast of Scotland near to the Queen Mother's Castle of
Mey - that is where she went to tea and taught the dances.

Linda
Pitlochry

Queen

Message 22778 · RuddBaron · 18 Sep 2000 19:16:10 · Top

In a message dated 9/17/00 11:13:06 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
atheling@home.com writes:

<< This is silly! The Queen Mum is SCOTTISH!
=20
That makes the present Queen at least half Scottish. >>

--- Yes, Elizabeth, the Queen Mother is Scottish, born the Hon. Elizabeth,=20
daughter of Lord Glamis. The family then aquired the title of Earl of=20
Strathmore and something else. All of these are Scottish titles. But that=20
still doesn't negate the fact that the present family is the House of Hanove=
r=20
with a few name changes...a Germanic family.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22779 · RuddBaron · 18 Sep 2000 19:21:20 · Top

In a message dated 9/18/00 2:20:10 AM Central Daylight Time,=20
Andrew.Dewdney@med.siemens.de writes:

<< Quite, I believe her family have been in possession of the lands around
Glamis since the 1300s. Makes them pretty Scottish, if you ask me, but as a=
n
ex-pat in Germany, it has become quite clear that our Royal family stem fro=
m
Hanover. And old Albert of course, Herzog von Saxe-Coburg, who has a nice
statue in the market square in Coburg, saying what a nice chap he was and
that he was the Prince of the region and all that, oh, and also married 'a
queen of England'.
Puts it into perspective. >>

--- Of course, I will add that the rightful King of England, Scotland, and=20
Ireland is Der Herzog von Bayern, H.S.H. Prince Franz in as much as he is th=
e=20
rightful Stewart heir and has the strongest claim to be head of the House of=
=20
Stewart, contrary to what Queen Elizabeth II seems to think. The Bavarian=20
Family used to wear the Stewart tartan...which made Queen Victoria rather=20
nervous.

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22788 · Richard Goss · 18 Sep 2000 22:42:35 · Top

Tom,

This story gets curioser & curioser re HM QM's
Scottishness

The earldom of Strathern & Kinghorn [S Coast of Fife by "4th" Bridge], was
in big financial trouble at the end of the last century. As it is today
because when the QM's father died, the title passed horizontally among her
brothers who all died without paying off their predecesor's death duties.
The last time I was there, the family lived over the garage and did not
occupy any of the older castle structures. Because of its royal link and
spurious connection with McBeth, Glamis is a favorite tourist site, as the
castle and grounds are well worth the visit.

Which brings me to herself's Scottishness. To save the estate with an influx
of English money, the Lyon family married into the Bowes family, Bowes being
from a feudal barony, dependant as vassals to the Bishop of Durham. As a
part of the prenupt, the ancient Lyon family agreed to part their shield
with the Bowes family [not usually done, it would be as if the Queen added
Greece and Denmark to the British arms when she married Prince Philip].

However, according to Teodosio Mun~oz Molina, in his <<El enigma de los
nombres y apellidos: su origen y significado>>, p. 28, subheading "Judios
desconocidos", the author cites Roger Peyrefitte <<Los judi'os>> as saying
that the following persons of note had Jewish ancestry:
...
Charles de Gaul <- Kolb
Konrad Adenaur
Otto von Habsburg <- Enri'quez mother of Ferdinand of Aragon.
Isabel Bowes-Lyon
Duque de Edimburgo <- Haucke
along with Franco, Castro, and presidents Kennedy & Johnson.

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

Queen

Message 22789 · Mike Briggs · 19 Sep 2000 00:07:01 · Top

I think this discussion is getting a little far afield. Moreover, Goss,
either I'm stupid or your last message wasn't entirely pellucid. I
don't understand how being a Bowes as well as a Lyon makes a person any
the less or more Scottish, nor do I understand how "Jewish ancestry"
(whatever that means) makes a person any the less or more Scottish.
Please explain (privately, if you prefer).

Mike
--
---------------------------------------------
Norma Briggs Voice: 608 835 0914
Michael J. Briggs Fax: 608 835 0924
BRIGGS LAW OFFICE
1519 Storytown Rd Oregon WI 53575-2521 USA
---------------------------------------------
HTTP://BRIGGSLAW.HOMESTEAD.COM
---------------------------------------------

Queen

Message 22790 · RuddBaron · 19 Sep 2000 00:55:24 · Top

Well just to sum up this discuss, I'll reitterate my original points, i.e.,=20
1. ERII is not "Our Queen" if we are non-British by citizenship.
2. ERII is a Windsor, which is a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, which is a Hanover, a=20
German house that took the throne from the Stewarts, the Scottish house of=20
Norman origin.
3. "The Queen," unless used in specific context, is pretty ambiguous, as=20
there are several other queens in the world today.
4. ERII has "appropriated" the Stewarts' goodies like the King's arms and th=
e=20
Royal Stewart tartan (which she calls "the Royal Tartan") as her own; this=20
comes across as just another attempt to take over the Scottish culture. I=20
think it would be far more effective if she simply said she liked the cultur=
e=20
and wanted to use various symbols of it just like non-Scots do when they joi=
n=20
our societies and groups. But, possession is 9/10 of the battle.
5. Queen Victoria calling herself the biggest Jacobite is ridiculous as the=20
head of the House of Hanover, enemy of the Jacobites, can hardly be a=20
Jacobite.
6. ERII being at least half Scottish does not make the House of Windsor a=20
"Scottish House," especially since their primary/most senior lineage is=20
Germanic.
7. ERII doesn't consult me on these matters, so I probably won't be changing=
=20
any of this any time soon. :)

s/RBJ

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22792 · ron.mackey · 19 Sep 2000 01:10:08 · Top

>
> It to put the record straight - it was May Yarker. And she
> didn't live any where near Glamis, she lives at Scrabster on the
> north coast of Scotland near to the Queen Mother's Castle of
> Mey - that is where she went to tea and taught the dances.
>
> Linda
> Pitlochry
>
Thanks Linda. :) To follow up a little; I seem to remember that
May was a maker of very fine enamelled jewellery and the Q.M. used to
take a great interest in her products?
I think I only saw some on one occasion and my recollection is
that they certainly looked impressive.

> --
> "Linda Gaul" <the.gauls@btinternet.com>
>
>
>
Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

Queen

Message 22793 · Oliver Thinius · 19 Sep 2000 01:30:02 · Top

The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Oliver Thinius
othinius@scottishsupplies.de
Oliver Thinius
PO Box 12 01 40
45437 M=FClheim an der Ruhr
Germany
othinius@scottishsupplies.de

Queen

Message 22801 · Simon Scott · 19 Sep 2000 03:15:41 · Top

to Rudd Baron

If the Queen is not British, are you American ?

Simon Scott
(a British Canadian)

Queen

Message 22802 · RuddBaron · 19 Sep 2000 04:00:02 · Top

In a message dated 9/18/00 6:16:56 PM Central Daylight Time, sscott@portal.c=
a=20
writes:

<< to Rudd Baron
=20
If the Queen is not British, are you American ? >>

--- I didn't say she wasn't British. I said she was a Germanic Hanoverian, o=
r=20
more specifically a Germanic-Hanoverian-Scottish-English-French-Briton, just=
=20
as I am an Anglo-Irish Franco-Scottish-American. British and American in thi=
s=20
case refers to citizenship, not ancestry.=20

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22808 · The_Healys · 19 Sep 2000 12:05:21 · Top

Oliver Thinius wrote:
> The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Madame Chairman,

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

Queen

Message 22813 · RuddBaron · 19 Sep 2000 15:48:51 · Top

In a message dated 9/19/00 3:06:14 AM Central Daylight Time,=20
The_Healys@compuserve.com writes:

<< Madame Chairman,
=20
I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item. >>

--- I, too, rise in support of the motion. :)

***************************************************************
Sl=E0inte mhath, h-uile latha, na ch=EC 'snach fhaic. Sl=E0inte mh=F2r.
Re=E0bhdtherf=F2rd Beurach MacIain =E0 Na Sti=F9bhartaich

Queen

Message 22814 · Pia Walker · 19 Sep 2000 16:05:41 · Top

Hear Hear

And they are all Danish anyway!! :>)

Pia
----- Original Message -----
From: The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>
To: Strathspey list <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:04 AM
Subject: Queen

Oliver Thinius wrote:
> The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Madame Chairman,

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

--
The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>

Queen

Message 22830 · Richard Goss · 20 Sep 2000 03:21:13 · Top

Dear Healys,

Hear! Hear! I not only concur with your motion, but also move the following
ammendment.

Henceforth, those wishing to hold lengthly and prolongued discussions on
subjects not even remotely related to country dancing, be advised to find,
or otherwise establish, another website so the rest of us are not tempted to
read their correspondence in hopes of finding something to our interest.

------Original Message------
From: The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>
To: Strathspey list <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: September 19, 2000 8:04:05 AM GMT
Subject: Queen

Oliver Thinius wrote:
> The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Madame Chairman,

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

--
The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

Queen

Message 22831 · RuddBaron · 20 Sep 2000 03:50:28 · Top

I'm sorry, did someone appoint you in charge of this list? If you don't want to read a message, then don't.

s/RBJ

In a message dated Tue, 19 Sep 2000 7:21:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net> writes:

Henceforth, those wishing to hold lengthly and prolongued discussions on
subjects not even remotely related to country dancing, be advised to find,
or otherwise establish, another website so the rest of us are not tempted to
read their correspondence in hopes of finding something to our interest.

------Original Message------
From: The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>
To: Strathspey list <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: September 19, 2000 8:04:05 AM GMT
Subject: Queen

Oliver Thinius wrote:
> The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Madame Chairman,

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

--
The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

>>

Queen

Message 22832 · RuddBaron · 20 Sep 2000 04:05:40 · Top

I would also like to add the following from the Strathspey Server website:

"The Strathspey mailing list is a forum for the discussion of all aspects of Scottish Country Dancing, e.g., dance descriptions, dancing technique, the history of dances and dancing, learning or teaching how to dance, ... We also welcome descriptions of new dances, announcements of events like courses or balls, or anything the subscribers might find interesting. "

I call your attention to the last sentence. In addition, H.M. Queen Elizabeth II of England is the Patron of the RSCDS, and therefore she is indeed related to Scottish Country Dancing. As I said before, if you don't want to read something, then please don't. If you don't wish to respond to a given topic, then please don't. There are plenty of posts which I find of little interest to me, and I simply ignore them. It's free speech...something not enjoyed in certain other parts of the world.

s/RBJ

In a message dated Tue, 19 Sep 2000 7:21:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Richard Goss <richard.n.goss@gte.net> writes:

<< Dear Healys,

Hear! Hear! I not only concur with your motion, but also move the following
ammendment.

Henceforth, those wishing to hold lengthly and prolongued discussions on
subjects not even remotely related to country dancing, be advised to find,
or otherwise establish, another website so the rest of us are not tempted to
read their correspondence in hopes of finding something to our interest.

------Original Message------
From: The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>
To: Strathspey list <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: September 19, 2000 8:04:05 AM GMT
Subject: Queen

Oliver Thinius wrote:
> The communication is beginning to get quite silly.

Madame Chairman,

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion that this
house move on to the next item.

Jim Healy
Perth, Scotland

--
The_Healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>

Goss
richard.n.goss@gte.net

>>

Queen

Message 22836 · Mettler, Klaus · 20 Sep 2000 10:06:35 · Top

> There are plenty of posts which I find of=20
> little interest to me, and I simply ignore them.

I agree complete and press the delete button :-}

Klaus Mettler
Stuttgart / Germany
Email: mailto:klaus.mettler@gmx.de=20
Homepage: http://www.tamburin.de/
Homedeck (nur in deutsch): http://www.tamburin.de/index.wml
WAP - SCD Phonebook: http://www.tamburin.de/phone.wml
Phonebook-Emulation: http://www.tamburin.de/phone.htm
Scottish Country Dancing in Stuttgart, Schw=E4bisch Gm=FCnd, Denkendorf =

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