strathspey Archive: Unidentified subject!

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Unidentified subject!

Message 19118 · John P. McClure · 28 Oct 1999 22:28:06 · Top

I've been struck by the vehemence with which some respondents have rejected
verbal cueing as a type of help; it makes me wonder whether they've been
yelled at a lot,and not too kindly at that. I don't imagine anyone likes
being "yelled" at; on the other hand, I know quite a few people who seem
to respond quite positively to a _decently delivered_ verbal cue. I can't
name a specific incident just now, but I'm sure I've had them given to me,
by someone who was not in my viewing range, but who could see that I needed
it. I have clear memories of resenting a somewhat roughly delivered physical
prompt, but none of resenting a verbal cue. This _will_ be interesting ...

Peter McClure
Winnipeg, MB

Unidentified subject!

Message 19119 · Richard L. Walker · 28 Oct 1999 22:42:27 · Top

Different cues work for different dancers. What one finds helpful, another
will find offensive. There are also the dancers that can be cued with, "Joe
Smith, put out your right hand," and he will either not hear you or dance
into the neighboring set -- with his left hand out -- smiling and with great
eye contact.

I have a hunch there isn't going to be one simple answer for the best way to
cue dancers.

Unidentified subject!

Message 19120 · Joy Gullikson · 28 Oct 1999 22:44:00 · Top

I think it important to keep all things in perspective--I, like Bruce, have
mentally wandered sometimes, and only a voice cue would help--this is a much
different kettle of fish from more detailed instructions being foisted on an
already confused dancer from several people. I don't know of anyone, even
when calm, who can assimilate instructions coming from more than one person,
but you add x degrees of panic into the situation and you've created more
panic.

The point is for other dancers to give the cues that the dancer suffering a
lapse needs, not the cues others want to give.

Joy Gullikson
Twin Cities, Minnesota

Unidentified subject!

Message 19121 · Norah Link · 28 Oct 1999 22:57:47 · Top

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Hamilton [mailto:hamilton@hplbh.hpl.hp.com]
> Sent: October 28, 1999 2:14 PM
>
> I'll give it a shot: last night I let my attention wander in class, so
> that I wasn't ready for a figure. My partner caught my eye, but too
> late for me to join successfully.

3 questions Bruce:

Was this a quick-time or a strathspey?
What was the figure you were too late to join?
What is your definition of "successfully"?

Norah

Unidentified subject!

Message 19122 · Norah Link · 28 Oct 1999 23:07:10 · Top

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John P. McClure [mailto:joptmc@cc.UManitoba.CA]
> Sent: October 28, 1999 2:28 PM
>
>
> I've been struck by the vehemence with which some respondents
> have rejected
> verbal cueing as a type of help; it makes me wonder whether
> they've been
> yelled at a lot,and not too kindly at that.

I'm not against verbal cueing per se. Sometimes (as Bruce pointed out)
nothing else is going to work. However, I have found that it can lead to
other problems when it is not (as you have pointed out) delivered
appropriately. Such as:

- everyone trying to cue at once (which is confusing, and can make someone
feel that they're just being yelled at)
- as a corollary, in class, everyone deciding it is up to them to teach
(making it more difficult for the teacher to be - or to become - effective)
- making dancers dependent on being cued, instead of learning to observe

Just because you use verbal cues doesn't mean any of these things is going
to happen, but I think it easily becomes a habit - and when that happens, it
can suffer from overuse or inappropriate use.

regards,
Norah

Unidentified subject!

Message 19123 · Dianna Shipman · 28 Oct 1999 23:42:27 · Top

I've noticed with very new dancers sometimes only a verbal cue works - if
they're looking at me and looking lost and the next figure is a reel - if I
just say (in a normal tone of voice or quieter) - "reel" - they look
relieved and then know what to do - if I try a non-verbal cue they don't
seem to "get it" - if I move my head they think I mean to cast - if I move a
hand they try to take it and turn - or come up with something totally
different.
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: John P. McClure <joptmc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!

> I've been struck by the vehemence with which some respondents have
rejected
> verbal cueing as a type of help; it makes me wonder whether they've been
> yelled at a lot,and not too kindly at that. I don't imagine anyone likes
> being "yelled" at; on the other hand, I know quite a few people who seem
> to respond quite positively to a _decently delivered_ verbal cue. I can't
> name a specific incident just now, but I'm sure I've had them given to me,
> by someone who was not in my viewing range, but who could see that I
needed
> it. I have clear memories of resenting a somewhat roughly delivered
physical
> prompt, but none of resenting a verbal cue. This _will_ be interesting
...
>
> Peter McClure
> Winnipeg, MB
>
> --
> "John P. McClure" <joptmc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
>

Unidentified subject!

Message 19125 · AGallamore · 29 Oct 1999 00:56:30 · Top

To Dianna's delimma....

A solution that I have found that works for me and my class....

First, if I give a verbal indication, i.e. "Cast", "Turn" "reel" "MOVE!" I
do that 2 bars ahead of the music. It normally takes that long for the
recipient to absorb the information and act upon it. Also, if they don't
hear it the first time, you still have just a little extra time to reinforce
it.

Second, hand gesture are kept at the waist or below. I hate to say this, but
since many dancers still look down, you might as well put it on their eye
level. (Next lesson will be looking up...)

Never using a finger, but an open palm, sometimes down and sweeping in the
direction of movement will "ease" them into regaining memory.

Beyond that, I highly recommend the electric cattle prod (low voltage, of
course) for mamimum effectiveness.

-Sandy Gallamore
Charlotte, NC

Unidentified subject!

Message 19129 · Dianna Shipman · 29 Oct 1999 03:59:10 · Top

Thanks for the feedback - but two dances I was thinking of are Mairi's
Wedding and Montgomeries Rant when the person is heading the right way to go
into a reel and then blanks out (then there's no way to cue them two bars
ahead - you don't yet know they're in trouble and they're not facing you).
I like the suggestions on hand signals although I've learned in some dances
not to plan on any unnecessary hand movements or someone who's lost will
grab your hand and you don't know what to do with them next - usually I just
smile and go ahead and let them turn me or whatever and then gently guide
them into the next part of the dance, sometimes with a quiet verbal cue!
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: <AGallamore@aol.com>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!

> To Dianna's delimma....
>
> A solution that I have found that works for me and my class....
>
> First, if I give a verbal indication, i.e. "Cast", "Turn" "reel" "MOVE!"
I
> do that 2 bars ahead of the music. It normally takes that long for the
> recipient to absorb the information and act upon it. Also, if they don't
> hear it the first time, you still have just a little extra time to
reinforce
> it.
>
> Second, hand gesture are kept at the waist or below. I hate to say this,
but
> since many dancers still look down, you might as well put it on their eye
> level. (Next lesson will be looking up...)
>
> Never using a finger, but an open palm, sometimes down and sweeping in the
> direction of movement will "ease" them into regaining memory.
>
> Beyond that, I highly recommend the electric cattle prod (low voltage, of
> course) for mamimum effectiveness.
>
> -Sandy Gallamore
> Charlotte, NC
>
>
> --
> AGallamore@aol.com
>

Unidentified subject!

Message 19130 · Mary Anderson · 29 Oct 1999 11:21:12 · Top

--- Dianna Shipman <diannashipman@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> I've noticed with very new dancers sometimes only a
> verbal cue works - if
> they're looking at me and looking lost and the next
> figure is a reel - if I
> just say (in a normal tone of voice or quieter) -
> "reel" - they look
> relieved and then know what to do - if I try a
> non-verbal cue they don't
> seem to "get it" - if I move my head they think I
> mean to cast - if I move a
> hand they try to take it and turn - or come up with
> something totally
> different.
> Dianna
> Dianna L. Shipman
> diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
> Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
> PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
> Houston, TX 77019-4946
> web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
> phone: 713-522-1212
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John P. McClure <joptmc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
> To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
>
>
> > I've been struck by the vehemence with which some
> respondents have
> rejected
> > verbal cueing as a type of help; it makes me
> wonder whether they've been
> > yelled at a lot,and not too kindly at that. I
> don't imagine anyone likes
> > being "yelled" at; on the other hand, I know
> quite a few people who seem
> > to respond quite positively to a _decently
> delivered_ verbal cue. I can't
> > name a specific incident just now, but I'm sure
> I've had them given to me,
> > by someone who was not in my viewing range, but
> who could see that I
> needed
> > it. I have clear memories of resenting a somewhat
> roughly delivered
> physical
> > prompt, but none of resenting a verbal cue. This
> _will_ be interesting
> ...
> >
> > Peter McClure
> > Winnipeg, MB
> >
> > --
> > "John P. McClure" <joptmc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
> >
>
>
>

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Unidentified subject!

Message 19132 · Pia Walker · 29 Oct 1999 12:03:26 · Top

You will know when people leaps out of the way. :>)

We have so far heard about hand signals and voice overs. What about body
language? A slight hesitation and a slight body angling towards the
direction you wish your "victim" to go.

With hand signals - try and do them in time with the music - they are less
obvious to the spectator. A sweeping hand gesture can look, not as if you
are helping, but as if you are being courteous.

With the voice - if you smile when you go "Oy You - here" it doesn't sound
like the put down of the century. I think a lot of people if they use
their voice, also lean forward or step away from their position - if they
still look relaxed, stay where they are then the voice will come over as if
in normal conversation, and nobody will be any the wiser.

All help should be given in a relaxed manner - I do like getting help - but
mostly if people don't look as if the roof is about to cave in - urgenzy and
panic or even irritation written all over them - it is not the be all and
end all to go wrong.

To end, two stories which has happened to me where I have absolutely hated
being helped. One was at YOunger Hall - I was dancing in a set with a lady
past her first youth - she looked at me, judged: Young, foreign, blonde,
dumb - I'll help her -which she did with THE STEEL GRIP - hanging on for
grim life - she almost broke my arm/hands/back.

Secondly at last years AGM - I danced with a very nice gentleman - we danced
a strathspey - I have blanked it from my mind which one - we were totally
and utterly lost - both of us - in our set were a lady - although I hesitate
to call her that - who got so disgusted with us - she absolutely refused to
hold our hands and her face were a mixture of: "look what the cat dragged
in", thunder and "People like you don't belong in RSCDS" - this was really
good help - this way we really got to know the dance :>) - it also gave me
an idea why RSCDS have got "stuck up" tagged to it.

Sorry long reply - bye for now

Pia

-----Original Message-----
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman@worldnet.att.net>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
<strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Date: 29 October 1999 01:03
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!

>Thanks for the feedback - but two dances I was thinking of are Mairi's
>Wedding and Montgomeries Rant when the person is heading the right way to
go
>into a reel and then blanks out (then there's no way to cue them two bars
>ahead - you don't yet know they're in trouble and they're not facing you).
>I like the suggestions on hand signals although I've learned in some dances
>not to plan on any unnecessary hand movements or someone who's lost will
>grab your hand and you don't know what to do with them next - usually I
just
>smile and go ahead and let them turn me or whatever and then gently guide
>them into the next part of the dance, sometimes with a quiet verbal cue!
>Dianna L. Shipman
>diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
>Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
>PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
>Houston, TX 77019-4946
>web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
>phone: 713-522-1212
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <AGallamore@aol.com>
>To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
>Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 3:55 PM
>Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
>
>
>> To Dianna's delimma....
>>
>> A solution that I have found that works for me and my class....
>>
>> First, if I give a verbal indication, i.e. "Cast", "Turn" "reel" "MOVE!"
>I
>> do that 2 bars ahead of the music. It normally takes that long for the
>> recipient to absorb the information and act upon it. Also, if they don't
>> hear it the first time, you still have just a little extra time to
>reinforce
>> it.
>>
>> Second, hand gesture are kept at the waist or below. I hate to say this,
>but
>> since many dancers still look down, you might as well put it on their eye
>> level. (Next lesson will be looking up...)
>>
>> Never using a finger, but an open palm, sometimes down and sweeping in
the
>> direction of movement will "ease" them into regaining memory.
>>
>> Beyond that, I highly recommend the electric cattle prod (low voltage, of
>> course) for mamimum effectiveness.
>>
>> -Sandy Gallamore
>> Charlotte, NC
>>
>>
>> --
>> AGallamore@aol.com
>>
>
>
>

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19153 · Trans Vector Technologies, Inc · 30 Oct 1999 00:45:12 · Top

>...when the person is heading the right way to go
>into a reel and then blanks out (then there's no way to cue them two bars
>ahead - you don't yet know they're in trouble and they're not facing you)...

Often I think it is better to shut up and let the mistakes happen. I think
it is inappropriate to go to extremes to keep mistakes from happening.

People do learn from their mistakes. One thing they learn is to be more
attentive. Another is to take more responsibility for their own dancing. By
trying too hard to put out the safety net you deprive the dancers of that
learning experience.

Cheers, Oberdan.

Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19155 · Pia Walker · 30 Oct 1999 01:09:10 · Top

Where should this be directed to - shoulder height or ??????

Pia
-----Original Message-----
From: Oberdan Otto <ootto@tvt.com>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
<strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Date: 29 October 1999 21:49
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes

>>Beyond that, I highly recommend the electric cattle prod (low voltage, of
>>course) for maximum effectiveness.
>
>Highly effective non-verbal communication.
>
>Of course, everyone in the set should be so equipped. Now there's a
picture!
>
>Cheers, Oberdan.
>
>Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
>Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com
>
>
>
>

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19158 · Blaine L. Peet · 30 Oct 1999 07:11:50 · Top

OK, my most recent mistake occurred at a recent social dance where I
joined my partner in a set after having just briefed the dance. As seems
to be a not unheard of affliction, that meant I had just dumped my memory
right out through my mouth. It took about 6 bars of music to fully catch
up to my partner, who gracefully demonstrated through body language what
we, as a couple, were supposed to be doing.

I react to verbal cues more quickly than physical (why do you want to
take my hand?), so I use them more. A reminder of the upcoming figure,
spoken softly to only my partner, has been received on many occasions
with a thank-you afterwards from an unsure partner. A confident guiding
lead - not grip! - can help steer her towards the proper corner, but it
must be ready to be released if not followed.

What signals an unsure partner? Repeated hesitations, veering off in the
wrong direction, the "deer caught in the headlights" look that whispers
"help me!"

Assists tend to be figure-dependent. Wrong shoulder given in a reel? Go
with it and let the dancing couple recover because it's not going to be
changed back now. Strathspey poussette? Second time through try softly
talking: "meet your partner and out to the side, into the middle...."

And keep smiling.

Blaine Peet
Maryland, USA
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19161 · Dianna Shipman · 30 Oct 1999 09:16:41 · Top

A specific instance - Sugar Candie is a dance that for some reason I've most
often danced on the woman's side of the dance (I have a favorite partner for
this one - it's one of his favorite dances) - and when I do dance on the
man's side - I'll be wandering off to reel on the wrong side - turning a
reel of 3 into a reel of 4 and leaving two people on the other side to dance
around each other - if my partner knows the dance well sometimes we just
assume we've now changed "sex" and stay on whatever side we finish - I don't
think any cue would help - because I appear to be so certain that I know
where I'm going that no one has a clue where I'm headed! Dances where I've
danced both sides equally often that have reels on the side I don't seem to
have that problem with.
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton@hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Cc: <hamilton@hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 11:37 AM
Subject: Dealing with mistakes

> [Anselm, my last issue of the digest gave all these subject lines as
> "Unidentified subject!". I think this is a thread worth keeping --
> can you check that they're OK in the archives?]
>
> This is a wonderful, lively discussion! I especially like Norah's
> comment about helping out of habit, and Peter Hastings' note that
> we'll often receive help in the form that the helper wants to give. I
> suspect that by the time I get to writing up my notes, all the points
> will have been made.
>
> I still think there's an opportunity for us to learn more than we
> already know about this subject. Most of us have detailed information
> about how WE like to get help, but not about how others do. Please,
> if you happen to make a mistake :-) tell us in detail about a specific
> experience. Your perspective may be different from ours; and if many
> people report in, we may see some categories. (Mel, you've drawn fine
> ones. I'm not suggesting that they're incorrect, just hoping for some
> live data to confirm them and perhaps suggest others).
>
> Norah,
> > Was this a quick-time or a strathspey?
> Quick-time.
> > What was the figure you were too late to join?
> Four hands across.
> > What is your definition of "successfully"?
> It depends on the figure. In this one I stayed out because I'd have
> had to muck up my steps and posture to join without slowing down the
> other dancers. If staying out would have confused them (e.g. if it
> were reel of 3) I'd have joined in. If the figure would have put me
> in a new place, I'd have joined in. Is that what you wanted to know?
>
> -Bruce
>
> Bruce Hamilton Hewlett-Packard Laboratories MS-4AD
> Phone 650-857-2818 PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA 94303-0889
> Fax 650-852-8092 bruce_hamilton@hpl.hp.com
>

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19162 · Dianna Shipman · 30 Oct 1999 09:16:52 · Top

I've noticed too that dances I talk through and then have to dance are
harder to remember - I learn by movement and visually and picture the dance
in my head and feel the movements in my head when someone else talks it but
I seem unable to create visual pictures in my head and talk at the same
time!
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: <blpeet@juno.com>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes

> OK, my most recent mistake occurred at a recent social dance where I
> joined my partner in a set after having just briefed the dance. As seems
> to be a not unheard of affliction, that meant I had just dumped my memory
> right out through my mouth. It took about 6 bars of music to fully catch
> up to my partner, who gracefully demonstrated through body language what
> we, as a couple, were supposed to be doing.
>
> I react to verbal cues more quickly than physical (why do you want to
> take my hand?), so I use them more. A reminder of the upcoming figure,
> spoken softly to only my partner, has been received on many occasions
> with a thank-you afterwards from an unsure partner. A confident guiding
> lead - not grip! - can help steer her towards the proper corner, but it
> must be ready to be released if not followed.
>
> What signals an unsure partner? Repeated hesitations, veering off in the
> wrong direction, the "deer caught in the headlights" look that whispers
> "help me!"
>
> Assists tend to be figure-dependent. Wrong shoulder given in a reel? Go
> with it and let the dancing couple recover because it's not going to be
> changed back now. Strathspey poussette? Second time through try softly
> talking: "meet your partner and out to the side, into the middle...."
>
> And keep smiling.
>
> Blaine Peet
> Maryland, USA
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Get the Internet just the way you want it.
> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
>
> --
> blpeet@juno.com
>
>

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19164 · Pia Walker · 30 Oct 1999 14:41:43 · Top

>What signals an unsure partner? Repeated hesitations, veering off in the
>wrong direction, the "deer caught in the headlights" look that whispers
>"help me!"

What about the full blown scream HELP!!!!!!! (the good think about the word
help is that it can be uttered through a smiling face)
>
Pia
>

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19165 · Pia Walker · 30 Oct 1999 14:41:44 · Top

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a Younger Hall Band many, many
years ago - you know in the good old days!!!!

We had noticed that the band was in stitches constantly and when asked
about it - they commented seeing row upon row of people standing across from
each other - tongues firmly stuck in their teeth, eyes bulging, with hands,
arms, head etc moving to get the "feel" of the dance. Just try and
visualize it - and you will see what I mean. Next time you are at a ball -
try and look down the rows - from the dance is called till the music start -
a truly awesome experience.

Pia

>I've noticed too that dances I talk through and then have to dance are
>harder to remember - I learn by movement and visually and picture the dance
>in my head and feel the movements in my head when someone else talks it but
>I seem unable to create visual pictures in my head and talk at the same
>time!
>Dianna
>Dianna L. Shipman
>diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
>Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
>PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
>Houston, TX 77019-4946
>web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
>phone: 713-522-1212
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <blpeet@juno.com>
>To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
>Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 9:57 PM
>Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
>
>
>> OK, my most recent mistake occurred at a recent social dance where I
>> joined my partner in a set after having just briefed the dance. As seems
>> to be a not unheard of affliction, that meant I had just dumped my memory
>> right out through my mouth. It took about 6 bars of music to fully catch
>> up to my partner, who gracefully demonstrated through body language what
>> we, as a couple, were supposed to be doing.
>>
>> I react to verbal cues more quickly than physical (why do you want to
>> take my hand?), so I use them more. A reminder of the upcoming figure,
>> spoken softly to only my partner, has been received on many occasions
>> with a thank-you afterwards from an unsure partner. A confident guiding
>> lead - not grip! - can help steer her towards the proper corner, but it
>> must be ready to be released if not followed.
>>
>> What signals an unsure partner? Repeated hesitations, veering off in the
>> wrong direction, the "deer caught in the headlights" look that whispers
>> "help me!"
>>
>> Assists tend to be figure-dependent. Wrong shoulder given in a reel? Go
>> with it and let the dancing couple recover because it's not going to be
>> changed back now. Strathspey poussette? Second time through try softly
>> talking: "meet your partner and out to the side, into the middle...."
>>
>> And keep smiling.
>>
>> Blaine Peet
>> Maryland, USA
>> ___________________________________________________________________
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Dealing with mistakes

Message 19172 · Blaine L. Peet · 31 Oct 1999 00:40:48 · Top

> What about the full blown scream HELP!!!!!!! (the good think about
> the word help is that it can be uttered through a smiling face)

At that point I'll go out on a limb and assume the dancer is beyond
taking offence if a little guidance is offered. Of course, that also
invites the entire set (and MC, if close by?) to jump to the rescue!
Guaranteed to collapse the set for that round.

What's interesting to see is a figure done 'wrong' once, and then
repeated in like fashion by those following. Who cares, as long as it
works for the moment? It can then be properly demonstrated by that
experienced 4th couple.

To add a qualifier to the earlier list of attributes of 'advanced'
dancers, how about: being able to get back to the right place at the
right time after having just found themselves in the wrong place at the
wrong time, within 2 bars. Intermediates get 8 bars, and beginners have
until the final chord to find their partner.

Blaine Peet
Maryland USA
___________________________________________________________________
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Dealing with mistakes

Message 19184 · gknox · 1 Nov 1999 01:43:25 · Top

Emphasis was stressed on making eye contact with your partner and
nonverbally inviting her/him to dance in our summer class that Fred
Macondray taught. I find this a very useful form of help, especially
when your couple has been standing out a large number of bars, as it can
prevent me from starting early if she shakes her head or her invitation
can call me back from my enjoyment of the music.

>From what my various teachers have taught I feel that this interaction
is a fundamental part of SCD and is a type of help that I would always
expect to both give and receive.

Gary Knox
San Francisco Branch, Berkeley Class

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19198 · Priscilla M. Burrage · 1 Nov 1999 21:59:26 · Top

On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 blpeet@juno.com wrote:

> OK, my most recent mistake occurred at a recent social dance where I
> joined my partner in a set after having just briefed the dance. As seems
> to be a not unheard of affliction, that meant I had just dumped my memory
> right out through my mouth. It took about 6 bars of music to fully catch
> up to my partner, who gracefully demonstrated through body language what
> we, as a couple, were supposed to be doing.

After talking through a dance and scurrying to my place in a set, between
the bow and the upbeat, I said (too loudly), "I wasn't listening."

What I meant was that, when I dance, I have to turn those fuuny things
called words into visual patterns to understand what they mean; but when
I'm speaking, I have to concentrate so hard on getting out the right words
that I can't stop to think about what patterns I'm talking about.

I don't think I'm unusual.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage Vermont US
(pburrage@zoo.uvm.edu)

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19202 · Trans Vector Technologies, Inc · 2 Nov 1999 00:05:46 · Top

>After talking through a dance and scurrying to my place in a set, between
>the bow and the upbeat, I said (too loudly), "I wasn't listening."

I usually conclude a briefing by repeating how the dance begins. The
attentive dancers think I do that for their benefit! Of course, the last
think I said is still rattling around in my mind as I scurry to my own
place in the dance...

Cheers, Oberdan

Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19220 · GIR · 2 Nov 1999 11:05:08 · Top

Priscilla M. Burrage wrote:
>> * What kind of help would you have liked? Be specific: would you
>> have liked to feel something? To see something? To hear
>> something? A combination of those? What would it have been --
>> what touch, what image, what sounds?

> Non-verbal. It is so unpleasant when someone in my set or another set
> starts giving dance directions. Always is in a loud, commanding tone.

Well.
Non-verbal hints are very good for people who have learned to accept them.
And for me, I like those little hints more than shouting of course.

But what about those people who don't look?
Who can't pick up little hints because there have not enough experience or other
reasons?

Especially the beginners are so paniced sometimes, you could wave a flag and
they wouldn't notice.

Sometimes a small verbal hint is much more effective.
It depends on the people involved.
So if you know the people and know the points they like to go wrong, you can
help with the things they need. For example a simple "down" or "reel" or "turn"
for that couple which always cross at that very moment.
How can you help an other couple if the "leading" partner is going to be wrong
and the "following" partner follows his little wrong signs? Let them go?
If you don't know them, it may be wiser to shut up and to try signs first.

The best clue for your partner or the rest of the set is, if you say that you
are unsure in before.
Then you will get more, and other, help than if they don't know.
If somebody doesn't say he or she is unsure, I presume he/she is sure enough to
react on little signs if possible. If warned, I would also give verbal keys. Hit
me on that.

Anja
Cologne, Germany
(Having at least one person in class who seems to prefer to be pushed. Maybe he
likes to be touched by women ;-) )

Music Makars Update

Message 19222 · Etienne Ozorak · 2 Nov 1999 16:20:27 · Top

Greetings,

Due to health reasons, I will be taking an extended sabbatical from
playing music. I fully intend to honor those engagements I have until the
end of spring 2000, but plan to suspend all activities for the Music
Makars after that.

I do wish to thank all who have been tremendously supportive of us for the
last ten years. I have some wonderful memories and hope that the
sabbatical is but a temporary measure.

Sincerely,
Etienne Ozorak
"Music Makars"

Music Makars Update

Message 19232 · Lee Fuell · 3 Nov 1999 01:22:50 · Top

Fellow Dancers,

All of you who know Etienne, and have had the pleasure of dancing
to the Music Makars, know how unfortunate this situation is for
Scottish Country Dancing. I'm sure you will all join me and the
RSCDS Cincinnati Branch in wishing Etienne as short a sabbatical
as conditions allow!

Lee

Forwarded by: strathspey-request@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Date sent: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:23:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Etienne Ozorak <etozorak@alleg.edu>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Copies to: etozorak@toolcity.net
Subject: Music Makars Update
Send reply to: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Date forwarded: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:20:28 +0100

> Greetings,
>
> Due to health reasons, I will be taking an extended sabbatical from
> playing music. I fully intend to honor those engagements I have until the
> end of spring 2000, but plan to suspend all activities for the Music
> Makars after that.
>
> I do wish to thank all who have been tremendously supportive of us for the
> last ten years. I have some wonderful memories and hope that the
> sabbatical is but a temporary measure.
>
> Sincerely,
> Etienne Ozorak
> "Music Makars"
>
>
> --
> Etienne Ozorak <etozorak@alleg.edu>
>
>

Music Makars Update

Message 19233 · Rebecca Sager · 3 Nov 1999 01:49:57 · Top

The Atlanta Branch has the Music Makars scheduled for our Unicoi Weekend,
two weeks before the Cincinnati Branch event. I'm really shaken up, I had
thought everything was going so swimmingly for them in the last couple of
years, after their fantastic second CD and being featured on the BBC. In
addition to being great musicians, they are such really nice people and a
delight to work with. Like Lee, I can only hope this sabbatical does not
have to be too long,

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19229 · Priscilla M. Burrage · 2 Nov 1999 22:55:58 · Top

I have copied a part of an answer to Bruce's question on dealing with
mistakes. (This one went to the English list.)

It explains more clearly than I have ever able to do just why I don't like
words thrown at me when I'm trying to figure out what to do in a dance.
They really do get in the way of my learning. However, they are not
useless; I usually memorize them and decypher what they mean later.

By the way, I also appreciate that others do need words and can use them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage Vermont US
(pburrage@zoo.uvm.edu)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:39:08 -0700
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp@oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD@SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
To: ECD@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes

Responding to Bruce's request on dealing with mistakes.

Generally I like non-verbal help just before ( a few beats before) I make a
mistake, so that I don't make it. Eye contact or a change of body angle
are best (non-touching, visual cues) and sometimes a gentle lead that
reminds me which way to go (eg cross instead of cast). BUT

I appreciate being allowed to make the mistake, if the non-verbal help is
likely to hurt (eg, holding firmly onto my arm in an effort to prevent me
from turning single when I shouldn't, taking me by both shoulders and
flinging me sideways to get me started in a hey with the correct shoulder).

Help afterwards? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. I hate help after the
mistake is made-- it doesn't help the situation, and I hear it as implying
that I shouldn't have made the mistake in the first place. I already know
that. I generally know immediately what I SHOULD have done, and where I
would have wound up if I'd done it right, and I can get there on my own. If
not, point to where I should start the next figure from so that I can get
there and do that one right. Any talking about the mistake after it
happened takes my attention from the part of the dance I'm trying to do
NOW, generally leading to more mistakes. Instead, if you are convinced that
I didn't learn from the mistake, and am likely to do it again, give the
help two beats before that part of the dance comes around again.
Afterwards isn't any good to me.

The BEST help is a smile that lets me know that even though I spaced out
and forgot to set to you, we are still friends. (I think this is a much
overlooked aspect of helping, particularly from experienced dancers to
beginners. Newcomers are extremely self-conscious about messing up the
"good" dancers, and have to be made to feel that the mistake didn't matter
at all, that nobody minded, that they are perfectly competant and lovable
despite the mistake. "Mistake, what mistake? Forgotten already." )

Sometimes words ARE needed, but the fewer the better. If I'm facing the
wrong way for rights and lefts, just my name is enough to get me turned
around.
IF I get into a set late and the caller has stopped calling, I can usually
do OK with non-verbal cues from the couple above, though one of them acting
as caller with prompts just before the next figure is OK.

Like many learners with a strong visual and kinesthetic componant, words
tend to interfere with my learning. Words prevent me from picking up
kinesthetic cues and from watching the set ahead, from whom I'm learning
the dance visually -- I can't attend to what I'm seeing and feeling if I
also hear words-- the verbal side of the brain drowns out the picture side
that I'm using to learn the dance.

And words prevent me from hearing the music, and getting the patterns of
the dance associated with the tune so that I can let the music tell me
what's next.
Explanations from dancers are sometimes useful while waiting out at the top
and bottom of the set, but even there, if the dance is new to me, I may be
busy mentally learning the other part by watching, and not want to be
interrupted.

Victoria Bestock

Dealing with mistakes

Message 19152 · Trans Vector Technologies, Inc · 30 Oct 1999 00:45:09 · Top

>Beyond that, I highly recommend the electric cattle prod (low voltage, of
>course) for maximum effectiveness.

Highly effective non-verbal communication.

Of course, everyone in the set should be so equipped. Now there's a picture!

Cheers, Oberdan.

Trans Vector Technologies, Inc, 184 Estaban Drive, Camarillo, CA 93010-1611
Phone: (805)484-2775, FAX: (805)484-2718, EMail: ootto@tvt.com

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