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RSCDS

Message 18630 · Todd Pierce · 13 Sep 1999 16:33:06 · Top

In response to the letter from John Carswell - Wow! Quite a lot of
allegations. Can anyone tell me who Mr. Carswell is - should I believe what
he says - and can anyone explain what he says - things like

"Examination of teachers, Summer School 1998: clearly a fiasco, Also a
cover-up?"

Perhaps someone from the Society should respond? I now have a lot of
negative opinions about the RSCDS and I don't know how to treat them. And
what _did_ happen at the Summer School 1998???

Todd Pierce
Asheville, NC

RSCDS

Message 18634 · barbara mcculloch · 13 Sep 1999 18:17:07 · Top

Regarding the "expressed anger" toward the RSCDS -
perhaps a simple matter of perspective may help.

First, based upon approximately 15 years' experience of membership in a
Branch in the US - the Society has come a long way toward change.
Especially now - I would suggest viewing their long-range plan on their
site - this addresses much of what we in North American Branches see as
needing attention. This is a big step!

Second - as regards alleged elitism - I believe it is a simple case of
proximity.

By the way, Buffalo NY RSCDS Branch has delegates.

Sometimes - you just have to be involved to understand and make change
rather than stand out and criticize. Simply criticizing is the lazy man's
motto.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

RSCDS

Message 18635 · S.M.D.Phillips · 13 Sep 1999 18:40:14 · Top

Thank you Barbara for your message. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've
been a member since 1985. There have been a lot of changes since then, and
yes more are needed, but we must make haste slowly, and take all the members
with us.

At Summer School this year, there was a very interesting presentation from
the current chairman and vice chairman on the subject of a possible future
structure of the society. I think their suggestions are very well worth
exploring, but it will take time to make sure that any changes are the right
way forward.
Stella Phillips, HQ member

-----Original Message-----
From: barbara mcculloch <dancie99@hotmail.com>
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
<strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Date: 13 September 1999 15:23
Subject: RE: RSCDS

>Regarding the "expressed anger" toward the RSCDS -
>perhaps a simple matter of perspective may help.
>
>First, based upon approximately 15 years' experience of membership in a
>Branch in the US - the Society has come a long way toward change.
>Especially now - I would suggest viewing their long-range plan on their
>site - this addresses much of what we in North American Branches see as
>needing attention. This is a big step!
>
>Second - as regards alleged elitism - I believe it is a simple case of
>proximity.
>
>By the way, Buffalo NY RSCDS Branch has delegates.
>
>Sometimes - you just have to be involved to understand and make change
>rather than stand out and criticize. Simply criticizing is the lazy man's
>motto.
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>--
>"barbara mcculloch" <dancie99@hotmail.com>
>
>

RSCDS

Message 18636 · Pia Walker · 13 Sep 1999 21:51:14 · Top

Hi there

>In response to the letter from John Carswell - Wow! Quite a lot of
>allegations. Can anyone tell me who Mr. Carswell is - should I believe what
>he says - and can anyone explain what he says - things like
>
>"Examination of teachers, Summer School 1998: clearly a fiasco, Also a
>cover-up?"

Sorry can't help you there - I have met Mr Carswell, but couldn't say I know
him. Re Examination of teachers - don't know either. However, how can you
change something if you refuse to take part?

>Perhaps someone from the Society should respond?

I am sure that someone from the Society will respond to him, but in private.
I presume this letter was sent snail-mail to HQ and that - as with a lot of
mail - it was received by HQ, and then has to be seen by the appropriate
committee - which can take some time as they are not all sitting around HQ
waiting - all are "volunteers", with other things to do also. This might be
a wrong way of running the Society, but is how it is done at present.

I now have a lot of
>negative opinions about the RSCDS and I don't know how to treat them. And
>what _did_ happen at the Summer School 1998???

I can't tell you what happened at Summer School in 1998 other than I was
there, and it was one of the greatest experiences for me for a long time.
It is very sad that you have a lot of negative opinions about the RSCDS - I
have been with the Society for more than 20 years both as a "foreigner" and
in the last 12 years as a "local" dancer and although there are many things
which can be improved upon, all in all I think it is a great society which
makes you meet and dance with lots of people from all over the world.

I would also like to point out that many of the negative things which are
muted at present, perhaps has floated to the surface because RSCDS wants to
upgrade, wants to modernise and people now are voicing their opinions more
as there are now somebody who listens to them???? Just a thought!!!!

It would be nice also to hear some positive things about the Society as well
though - please all you people out there - give the Society some positive
feed-back as well, so all the "volunteers" will know that their "banging of
heads against brick walls" are worth while.
>
>Pia
>

RSCDS

Message 18637 · Dianna Shipman · 13 Sep 1999 22:31:48 · Top

Positives about RSCDS - every time I've sent in a question, request, etc.
I've received a prompt and courteous reply and as much information as they
have available - and an incredible number of dances (even if they've been a
bit "revised") were saved by them from being lost forever. Not to mention a
lot of great music!
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Pia Walker <piawalke@nascr.net>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: RSCDS

> Hi there
>
>
> >In response to the letter from John Carswell - Wow! Quite a lot of
> >allegations. Can anyone tell me who Mr. Carswell is - should I believe
what
> >he says - and can anyone explain what he says - things like
> >
> >"Examination of teachers, Summer School 1998: clearly a fiasco, Also a
> >cover-up?"
>
> Sorry can't help you there - I have met Mr Carswell, but couldn't say I
know
> him. Re Examination of teachers - don't know either. However, how can
you
> change something if you refuse to take part?
>
> >Perhaps someone from the Society should respond?
>
> I am sure that someone from the Society will respond to him, but in
private.
> I presume this letter was sent snail-mail to HQ and that - as with a lot
of
> mail - it was received by HQ, and then has to be seen by the appropriate
> committee - which can take some time as they are not all sitting around HQ
> waiting - all are "volunteers", with other things to do also. This might
be
> a wrong way of running the Society, but is how it is done at present.
>
> I now have a lot of
> >negative opinions about the RSCDS and I don't know how to treat them. And
> >what _did_ happen at the Summer School 1998???
>
> I can't tell you what happened at Summer School in 1998 other than I was
> there, and it was one of the greatest experiences for me for a long time.
> It is very sad that you have a lot of negative opinions about the RSCDS -
I
> have been with the Society for more than 20 years both as a "foreigner"
and
> in the last 12 years as a "local" dancer and although there are many
things
> which can be improved upon, all in all I think it is a great society which
> makes you meet and dance with lots of people from all over the world.
>
> I would also like to point out that many of the negative things which are
> muted at present, perhaps has floated to the surface because RSCDS wants
to
> upgrade, wants to modernise and people now are voicing their opinions more
> as there are now somebody who listens to them???? Just a thought!!!!
>
> It would be nice also to hear some positive things about the Society as
well
> though - please all you people out there - give the Society some positive
> feed-back as well, so all the "volunteers" will know that their "banging
of
> heads against brick walls" are worth while.
> >
> >Pia
> >
>
>
> --
> "Pia Walker" <piawalke@nascr.net>
>
>

RSCDS

Message 18639 · Todd Pierce · 13 Sep 1999 22:49:28 · Top

I'm sorry - I did not mean to say I now "have" or "believe" a lot of
negative opinions about the RSCDS - I should have said I now "have presented
to me in this email" a lot of negative opinions about the RSCDS and didn't
know whether to believe them or not. My contact with the RSCDS has been
tenuous for the past 7 years, so I did not know whether the letter expressed
the truth or not. My personal opinion of the RSCDS has been neutral as I
have not been involved with it. Sorry for the confusion.

I guess my real question was, how do I evalute these allegations? Usually
when I read a newspaper or listen to the radio, I can form judgements about
the trustworthiness of the source. Here, I can't, so I have to assume I must
treat the letter with skepticism.

Todd Pierce
Asheville NC

RSCDS

Message 18641 · ron.mackey · 14 Sep 1999 00:13:58 · Top

> Sorry can't help you there - I have met Mr Carswell, but couldn't say I know
> him. Re Examination of teachers - don't know either. However, how can you
> change something if you refuse to take part?

Hi, Pia
Hope you are all fit and well?
------------------------------
I'm not sure if Mr Carswell is talking about this or something else
but there is one item which caused a lot of grief.
In 1998 a certain very enthusiastic gentleman from a long way away
spent considerable time and money going to Summer School in order to
take a teaching certificate. He was most upset when he failed,
even more so when he received no reason, no advice on what he needed
to work on, just failed. There were no answers to his queries at
all. He went home in a self sustained steam bath and later let
fly. I believe the pain has eased a little.

One of the results is that some consideration has been given to
provide a 'score' sheet to participants 'though there others who have
more information on this subject than I. I have the distinct
impression that the message was received but inevitably and
understandably any progress must be very well considered or the
result could produce more problems than answers.

One last comment. I do know that a severely critical letter was
posted on Strathspey at the same time that it was posted snail mail
to the addressee. This meant that coals of fire were heaped upon
the head of the recipient before they had even received the original
letter. This caused a great deal of distress and was manifestly
unkind.
To reiterate a point I made previously, those who guide this
society for everyone's benefit are amateurs and give their time
freely not for the power it brings but because they wish to repay for
the joy they have in dancing. It cannot be easy to run an
International society where those members making the decisions are
aware that virtually every other member knows they can do a better
job.
So, if you have an idea or opinion which you think might help, think
it out carefully, write it out and send it to Coates
Crescent and trust that it will be read and considered
carefully even if you do not receive a reply for some
time. And please remember, Coates Crescent is not the
place where any of the committees go to do their daily
work. They are entitled to go dancing too !

Personally, although I do not agree with all the opinions, attitudes
or decisions I can only applaud and say "Thank you very much."


Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

RSCDS

Message 18642 · Alan Twhigg · 14 Sep 1999 00:33:03 · Top

To Todd and others on the Strathspey list,

Re your posting in reaction to John Carswell's letter, I support and
echo Pia's response. My experience is quite different from hers, as I
have been an overseas member for the 20 years I've been dancing, and my
main contacts with RSCDS Headquarters have been from publications,
attending Summer School, and occasional teaching and examination visits
to my area from the Society's representatives. I am remote from the
inner workings of HQ, but believe that changes for the better are in
process. It is a conservative organization and these changes will take
some time - as they should; for the most part, people derive great
enjoyment from SCD classes, socials, schools, and other events, whether
these are sponsored by the Society itself or by other bodies, and it
would be tragic if radical changes were implemented that stifled these
positive experiences.

> In response to the letter from John Carswell - Wow! Quite a lot of
> allegations. Can anyone tell me who Mr. Carswell is - should I believe what
> he says - and can anyone explain what he says - things like
>
> "Examination of teachers, Summer School 1998: clearly a fiasco, Also a
> cover-up?"

I am not acquainted with Mr. Carswell, and do not know what his
experience may have been with the 1998 examinations. I attended Summer
School in 1998 and knew a number of the First Fortnight candidates; as
in other years, there were stressful moments and some positive and a few
negative results. I think everyone involved in the process would like to
find ways to make it less stressful and more accurate in assessing
candidates' progress, but on the balance sheet it generally achieves its
goal. Occasionally someone gets treated unfairly, but usually this is
the result of miscommunication or nerves going awry rather than negative
intent. I was not aware of any "fiasco".

> Perhaps someone from the Society should respond? I now have a lot of
> negative opinions about the RSCDS and I don't know how to treat them. And
> what _did_ happen at the Summer School 1998???

I'd agree with Pia that Summer School 1998 was great good fun for most
who attended - the caliber of the teaching, music, and other
entertainment set a high standard, and the organizers took pains to
arrange some special events that are cherished in memory. Those of us
from remote locations were encouraged to participate in strategic
planning forums chaired by Muriel Johnstone and Linda Gaul; we felt an
effort was being made to solicit opinions from the membership regarding
what changes were needed and how the Society was viewed in areas outside
of Scotland.

regards,

Alan Twhigg, San Francisco Bay Area.

RSCDS

Message 18643 · Murray Wilson · 14 Sep 1999 00:47:13 · Top

At 14:48 13/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm sorry - I did not mean to say I now "have" or "believe" a lot of
>negative opinions about the RSCDS - I should have said I now "have presented
>to me in this email" a lot of negative opinions about the RSCDS and didn't
>know whether to believe them or not.
>
I to have been a member of the RSCDS since 1985. Of course there are negatives
if we look for them, but IMHO the positives far outway the negatives. The
people from HQ and the various committees that I have met have always been
hard working embassadors for the society. I have been fortunate enough to
attend two St Andrews Summer Schools 1996 and 1998 and they were both
wonderfull events, if there was a problem in 98 I was unaware of it.
There is always room for improvement, but with an organisation as widespread
as ours, change is going to be slow, like it or not.

Murray Wilson
Auckland NZ

RSCDS

Message 18645 · McBride, Ann · 14 Sep 1999 02:14:03 · Top

Bryan - Thank you for sharing Mr. Carswell's letter with subscribers. From
this point on all my remarks are directed entirely to Mr. Carswell, although
I do realize that the message has to through you.

Mr. Carswell -- I have been involved with SCD since 1968 (Wellington NZ and
Los Angeles, CA) -- granted not a long time by many standards - however, I
am appalled that you would resort to asking someone else to broadcast your
petty peeves with the Society through a medium which you admit is not
"your favourite form of communication". Your issues with the Society are
yours and yours alone - your admonishment of the Executive Council on what
they "should" have done are beyond the bounds anyone on the strathspey
network, therefore, why air your disgruntlement with the Executive Committee
in Scotland to people in the USA, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
What exactly is/was your motive?

We all know that the Society has shortcomings -- please enlighten me on an
organization that doesn't --- with the exception of a small number of paid
employees , the Society is run by a group of volunteers. Ron Mackey put it
very well when he said that Coates Crescent is not the place where any of
the committees go to do their daily work. Were (are) you a volunteer on
the Ex.Committee? Who do you represent? You say you do your bit for SCD
by "calling" for a gathering of 900 dancers - is that "calling" in the
sense of square dancing calling -- or do you mean that you were in a
position to teach/coach/brief/walk 900 people? Were they all dancers or
simply people in attendance at a public gathering.

This weekend I received my copy of the 75th anniversay video -- I confess I
was moved - watching people dancing all the way from Pietermaritzburg in
South Africa to all the Californias, to Australia, to New Zealand, to all
of Canada, to Japan, it reinforced the feeling of "family" which Miss
Milligan espoused.

And on a last note -- were it not for the foresight, commitment and
enthusiasm of a small group of dedicated people , we would all be off doing
something a whole lot less interesting and a whole lot less rewarding.

Mr. Carswell - shame on your small-mindedness -- pehaps your time
and talent would be better served in another area.

> From: Bryan McAlister[SMTP:Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk]
> Reply To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 1:14 PM
> To: Strathspey
> Subject: RSCDS
>
>
>
> At the request of my friend John Carswell I have copied this to
> strathspey. The content is largely self explanatory...
>
> Apologies for any minor glitches in punctuation etc. that have resulted
> from my OCR software
>
> For the attention of the Chairman and Convenor of the General Purposes
> Committee
>
> 'ANY OTHER BUSINESS' AND OTHER MATTERS'
>
> A rather belated reply to your letter of 13th May. I note your apology
> about the Length of the meeting but it is not a new situation, so what
> is being done to improve it? It is hardly surprising that it went on so
> late with an Executive Council of 176 people meeting only twice a year,
>
> I was somewhat surprised to say the least at the suggestion 'If you have
> any constructive proposals that you wish the Society to consider
> regarding membership, AGMs or Open Forums, please write in,' I have been
> raising constructive proposals to the Society for the last 15 years with
> no results, no action.
>
> After only one year on the Executive, I am dismayed and frustrated with
> the overall management, lack of will to progress and the unwieldy
> apparatus that precludes proper discussion. I have therefore given up
> being a Branch delegate and representative and see no point in attending
> future AGMs and Open Forums.
>
> The following points should have been discussed:
> 1. Voluntary code for length of service: Executive Council minutes
> November 98
> 2. Open forum: members are assured all points are discussed in
> committee but none appear to have been discussed including a fundamental
> one on 'elitism' I also believe the Forum should have an independent
> chairman, sealed envelopes for questions and if it starts late should
> finish late.
> 3. Membership: two membership drives and numbers still declining -
> what happened?
> 4. Examination of teachers, Summer School 1998: clearly a fiasco, Also
> a cover-up?
> 5. Strategic Plan: proposals for implementation.
>
> This situation is not acceptable and some one must take responsibility,
> With regard to the Strategic Plan, there is no reason to take it or any
> future revisions to the AGM, only constitutional changes are required to
> go to the AGM, All costs must be considered but a member's newsletter
> can pay for itself and a smaller management structure will save money.
> There is no need to take Branches along with the Plan but everyone
> should be told clearly what is required and start acting now. Is anyone
> stepping down to let in new younger blood? Have there been any
> improvements to the weekly summer dances of Alva, Perth, Troon,
> Pitlochry, or The Gardens? They are not improving our image or culture,
> (incidentally there has been no final meeting of the Strategic Planning
> committee)
>
> I am a Life member and believe everyone should have the opportunity to
> be so but I am incensed to be repeatedly asked for further donations
> when the Society seems to do so little for dancing, has not looked
> into the matter properly and maintains a large management
> structure and a subscription book system. Not a penny until it reforms!
>
> I think I do my 'bit' for promoting dancing and have recently called for
> gatherings of 900 people, another of 200 young people at the Linlithgow
> Academy Leavers Ball, have been photographed dancing in front of
> Linlithgow Palace for the French weekly, L'Express and organise
> Linlithgow Scotch Hop now having its tenth season,
>
> The internet is not my favourite form of communication, but I make no
> apology for allowing a copy to be put on it to let more dancers know
> what is happening,
>
> Yours sincerely
>
>
>
> John D Carswell
> Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
> Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
> Mobile phone 07801 793849
>
> --
> Bryan McAlister <Bryan@bryanmac.demon.co.uk>
>

RSCDS

Message 18646 · The_Healys · 14 Sep 1999 02:14:32 · Top

<Oh! Oh! There goes another pram thrown out with the toys>

John, John, John,

You really are your own worst enemy. Yes, the Society needs changing.
Yes, it needs to happen more quickly. But, walking away from it is
not going to make either of those things happen. And, I have really
bad news for you. Neither of them are ever going either to happen nor
to turn out exactly the way you (or I, or Nova Scotia Branch) want it
to. This is a Society of nearly 25,000 members with conflicting needs
and desires. It will always be a compromise.

You complain that your points are not taken seriously. I beg to differ.
Almost single-handedly you have raised awareness within the Society of
the Ceilidh scene to the point where Bill Clement devoted a great part
of his 75th Anniversary Summer School speech to the subject. We have
Ceilidh Classes in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth and other Branches and
there are a lot of people who accept that you were the driving force
behind this. But, no, John, we are NOT going to give up the RSCDS style
just because the 'Reeler' style is older and you think it more authentic.=

Both have a place. Your achievement has been to be at the forefront in
making the RSCDS accept that last statement.

You complain that the Open Forum is stacked against you. If it is, it is
your own fault for trying to hog the process. Why does the meeting groan=

when you rise? Not because of what you have to say but because of the
sheer volume of questions that you ask. Nothing wrong with any one of the=
m
but the fable of the Boy who cried Wolf is as valid today as it was
centuries
ago.

You complain about the Summer Dancing and give a list that combines RSCDS=

groups with Tourist Authority dances with dances run by individuals. The
most completely RSCDS venue in your list is probably Alva. I have stopped=

going there because it is so popular that the hall has gone beyond being
uncomfortably full. That's a problem but hardly the one you identify.

You complain about the 1998 Summer School examinations. Yes, there was a
problem with one class out of the four that year. I know this to be a fac=
t
as I was indirectly involved through one of the candidates whom I had
encouraged to take the exam. I made an official complaint. It was dealt
with quietly. In my view, the solution was less than satisfactory (public=

flogging was my preferred solution). It was, however, dealt with in a wa=
y
that I felt would help stop a recurrence in future. The difficulty in cas=
es
like this, John (and Todd), is that there are inconvenient little things
like the laws of privacy and libel and defamation which get in the way of=

saying too much publicly. As far as I am concerned the matter is closed.

I'm sorry, John, that you want to walk away because you haven't got what
you want out of the Society in just one year. I believe you have somethin=
g
to offer the Society even if it is only to provide the John Stuart Mill
requirement of someone to query what everybody else believes to be an
inalienable truth. For the past few years you have, to a degree, offered
the Society the same sort of scourge that the late Alan Clarke offered th=
e
Tory Party. Essential, and every group should have one, but you need to
accept that we are not all going to fall in behind and follow everything
you think just because you think it.

I am currently a member of the General Purposes Committee but I have neve=
r
let that get in the way of speaking my mind on the list provided it does
not
clash with any confidentiality requirement which is obviously not the cas=
e
here. For the record, however, the views expressed here are very much my
own.

Yours _very_ sincerely
Jim Healy

RSCDS

Message 18647 · McBride, Ann · 14 Sep 1999 02:45:46 · Top

Jim- thank you for so beautifully and succintly putting most of my reactions
into words. In my response to Mr. Carswell I was, perhaps, a bit too
vitriolic. I get so very tired of all the people
who believe they can re-invent the wheel (which, by the way we Irish
invented), but let's not forget that so far things must be working otherwise
we would all be hooked into the international basketweaving and quilting for
the millions network rather than "Strathspey". I think I have said enough!!
> ----------
> From: the_healys[SMTP:The_Healys@compuserve.com]
> Reply To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
> Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 3:14 PM
> To: Strathspey list
> Subject: RSCDS
>
> <Oh! Oh! There goes another pram thrown out with the toys>
>
> John, John, John,
>
> You really are your own worst enemy. Yes, the Society needs changing.
> Yes, it needs to happen more quickly. But, walking away from it is
> not going to make either of those things happen. And, I have really
> bad news for you. Neither of them are ever going either to happen nor
> to turn out exactly the way you (or I, or Nova Scotia Branch) want it
> to. This is a Society of nearly 25,000 members with conflicting needs
> and desires. It will always be a compromise.
>
> You complain that your points are not taken seriously. I beg to differ.
> Almost single-handedly you have raised awareness within the Society of
> the Ceilidh scene to the point where Bill Clement devoted a great part
> of his 75th Anniversary Summer School speech to the subject. We have
> Ceilidh Classes in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth and other Branches and
> there are a lot of people who accept that you were the driving force
> behind this. But, no, John, we are NOT going to give up the RSCDS style
> just because the 'Reeler' style is older and you think it more authentic.
> Both have a place. Your achievement has been to be at the forefront in
> making the RSCDS accept that last statement.
>
> You complain that the Open Forum is stacked against you. If it is, it is
> your own fault for trying to hog the process. Why does the meeting groan
> when you rise? Not because of what you have to say but because of the
> sheer volume of questions that you ask. Nothing wrong with any one of them
> but the fable of the Boy who cried Wolf is as valid today as it was
> centuries
> ago.
>
> You complain about the Summer Dancing and give a list that combines RSCDS
> groups with Tourist Authority dances with dances run by individuals. The
> most completely RSCDS venue in your list is probably Alva. I have stopped
> going there because it is so popular that the hall has gone beyond being
> uncomfortably full. That's a problem but hardly the one you identify.
>
> You complain about the 1998 Summer School examinations. Yes, there was a
> problem with one class out of the four that year. I know this to be a fact
> as I was indirectly involved through one of the candidates whom I had
> encouraged to take the exam. I made an official complaint. It was dealt
> with quietly. In my view, the solution was less than satisfactory (public
> flogging was my preferred solution). It was, however, dealt with in a way
> that I felt would help stop a recurrence in future. The difficulty in
> cases
> like this, John (and Todd), is that there are inconvenient little things
> like the laws of privacy and libel and defamation which get in the way of
> saying too much publicly. As far as I am concerned the matter is closed.
>
> I'm sorry, John, that you want to walk away because you haven't got what
> you want out of the Society in just one year. I believe you have something
> to offer the Society even if it is only to provide the John Stuart Mill
> requirement of someone to query what everybody else believes to be an
> inalienable truth. For the past few years you have, to a degree, offered
> the Society the same sort of scourge that the late Alan Clarke offered the
> Tory Party. Essential, and every group should have one, but you need to
> accept that we are not all going to fall in behind and follow everything
> you think just because you think it.
>
> I am currently a member of the General Purposes Committee but I have never
> let that get in the way of speaking my mind on the list provided it does
> not
> clash with any confidentiality requirement which is obviously not the case
> here. For the record, however, the views expressed here are very much my
> own.
>
> Yours _very_ sincerely
> Jim Healy
>
> --
> the_healys <The_Healys@compuserve.com>
>

RSCDS

Message 18648 · Richard L. Walker · 14 Sep 1999 03:02:36 · Top

Why? I try to get my messages out to concerned individuals any way I can --
and my preference for one medium over another doesn't enter into the
picture. Time and time again we see individuals with e-mail access
submitting dance announcements, class info, travel info and, yes, a few
complaints, for others who do not use it. I see no problem with that.

-----Original Message-----
From: McBride, Ann [mailto:McBrideA@cshs.org]
...I am appalled that you would resort to asking someone else to broadcast
your petty peeves with the Society through a medium which you admit is not
"your favourite form of communication"...

RSCDS

Message 18649 · Alan Paterson · 14 Sep 1999 11:25:16 · Top

ron.mackey@post.btinternet.com wrote:

> One of the results is that some consideration has been given to
> provide a 'score' sheet to participants 'though there others who have
> more information on this subject than I. I have the distinct
> impression that the message was received but inevitably and
> understandably any progress must be very well considered or the
> result could produce more problems than answers.

Following the examination this summer in St Andrews, I received indeed such a
'score sheet' where I was able to see where the examiners saw my weak points. This
duplicated exactly what the examiner said to me in the 'debriefing' one receives
following the teaching examination.

Alan

RSCDS

Message 18652 · Norah Link · 14 Sep 1999 18:17:29 · Top

>>> <strathspey-request@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de> 14/09/99 03:26 am >>>
Following the examination this summer in St Andrews, I received indeed such a
'score sheet' where I was able to see where the examiners saw my weak points. This
duplicated exactly what the examiner said to me in the 'debriefing' one receives
following the teaching examination.
<<<

Hmmm... I did my full certificate at TAC last year and received no such "score
sheet" - thought they only went to candidates who failed. With four weeks
intervening between debrief & result to misinterpret what the examiners had said,
it would have been nice to see it in writing. Is this something they are doing
for all candidates now? How detailed is it? (I remember the old one was a series
of tick marks against 8 points - hardly enough to tell you what you did well and
what you could stand to work on.)

Norah Link
Montreal

RSCDS

Message 18653 · Bryan McAlister · 14 Sep 1999 21:17:36 · Top

Thanks to everyone who felt moved to respond to John Carswell's letter
in whatever fashion.

I shall copy all responses to him and ensure that I get a detail reply.
It will take about a week as he is on holiday at present. That's my
fault as I should have put the letter on line about 10 days ago but
didn't get round to it.

Just to keep things going however allow me to say that in the years that
I have known John I have been continually impressed by his skill and
knowledge about dancing and his constant determination to expand its
horizons. Given recognition two years ago by West Lothian Council in the
shape of their annual arts award.

I have been less impressed with that from official sources during the
couple of years I was a branch member of the RCSDS. I know from my own
14 years in the head office of a charitable organisation that a
Headquarters is always paddling like mad to keep abreast with things but
I do think there is something fundamentally adrift, especially with
respect to the Scottish scene, about the RCS's.
Bryan McAlister B Arch RIBA ARIAS
Web page www.bryanmac.demon.co.uk
Mobile phone 07801 793849

RSCDS

Message 18655 · Simon Scott · 15 Sep 1999 02:37:06 · Top

I wrote this article which just appeared in our last Branch Newsletter.
Some of my thoughts re our RSCDS.

WE =91ARE=92 THE RSCDS

My first Scottish Country Dancing was in village halls and church halls a=
nd
in country gardens, sometimes mixed with English Country Dancing, but at
that time I knew nothing of the RSCDS. I=92m sure many people have, and =
maybe
some still do, dance in similar circumstances.

So why then, the RSCDS and its Branches?

For sure Scottish Country Dancing would indeed still exist, in some form =
or
an other, had Miss Milligan and Mrs. Stewart not combined their efforts t=
o
form our society in 1923. How truly grateful I feel that those two grand
ladies took that first step which has helped pass on their enthusiasm to =
me,
to you and to so many, many others. I hope you feel the same. For nearl=
y
eighty years now our society has been the nurturing custodian of this mos=
t
valuable part of Scottish culture. Through our society=92s care, and the
immense dedication of those who lead it, both in Scotland and right aroun=
d
the entire world, our dancing not only survives but it thrives. Not onl=
y
does it thrive but it also maintains a certain fine and enjoyable dignity=
,
fit for any occasion.

We should not believe that any of us, particularly those of us outside
Scotland, would be enjoying this musical, physical and social activity, i=
n
the wonderful way that we are, without the supportive guidance and the
wealth of information from our RSCDS. There really is no aspect of our
dancing, be it classes, music, parties, balls or workshops that does not
benefit enormously from the foundation, and continuing support, which our
society has given us. We constantly rely on this foundation and support
both here in Vancouver as well as in the many other branches, which we ma=
y
visit or join, throughout the whole word.

Since local dancers formed our own Vancouver Branch in 1965 all of our
members have benefited so richly from the resources of our society. The
guidance given to our teachers, which is then passed on to our dancers,
helps us all reach for that enjoyable sense of dancing in true character.
The dedicated members who serve on our committees continue to unite the
Greater Vancouver area clubs into one of the foremost RSCDS Branches of t=
he
society. I am indeed proud to be part of it and hope you join me in that
pride.

I realize now, that even when I first danced on my parent=92s lawn, I was
already benefiting, unknowingly, from the influence of our RSCDS. In the
end it is most certainly we, all of us, the dancing membership, who
constantly reap the benefits that our RSCDS offers us, wherever we dance.

We must all take it as ours, enjoy it as ours and support it as ours,
because =85.
we 'are' the RSCDS.

Simon Scott

RSCDS

Message 18661 · Martin.Sheffield · 15 Sep 1999 20:31:27 · Top

At 15:39 14/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
> There really is no aspect of our
>dancing, be it classes, music, parties, balls or workshops that does not
>benefit enormously from the foundation, and continuing support, which our
>society has given us.

While applauding the up-beat tone of Simon's letter -- it's good to hear
something positive from time to time -- my sluggish brain was stimulated to
raise the question:
What support did Fiddlesticks & Ivory, Etienne Ozorak, or Sylvia Miskoe and
their players get from the RSCDS to produce the excelent recordings that
give us so much pleasure?
(a non-exclusive list of names that happened to come to my mind)

Martin,
in Grenoble, France.
---
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/
(dancing, dances, cycling ...)

RSCDS

Message 18664 · Simon Scott · 16 Sep 1999 08:23:50 · Top

Hi Martin
If by "support" to the musician you mention, you mean financial support, you
are probably right. But the Society can not be expected to supply funds to
every endeavour. My meaning of the words foundation and support, in this
case, is not financial. It is, the wealth of dance and music material, the
clubs and branches, and their dancers, the events and functions where this
music is enjoyed, both live and recorded. This is where the benefit is.
Even new dances, music, recordings etc. although not formally channeled
through the RSCDS, surely owe a great deal to the local and world wide
market place, (for want of a better word) which the RSCDS started and heads.
Another organization may have done an equally good job but reality is, it
was the RSCDS. Let's give it our "support".

Simon Scott
sscott@portal.ca
Vancouver

>At 15:39 14/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> There really is no aspect of our
>>dancing, be it classes, music, parties, balls or workshops that does not
>>benefit enormously from the foundation, and continuing support, which our
>>society has given us.
>
>While applauding the up-beat tone of Simon's letter -- it's good to hear
>something positive from time to time -- my sluggish brain was stimulated to
>raise the question:
>What support did Fiddlesticks & Ivory, Etienne Ozorak, or Sylvia Miskoe and
>their players get from the RSCDS to produce the excelent recordings that
>give us so much pleasure?
>(a non-exclusive list of names that happened to come to my mind)
>
>Martin,
>in Grenoble, France.
> ---
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/
>(dancing, dances, cycling ...)
>
>--
>M Sheffield <martin.sheffield@wanadoo.fr>
>
>

RSCDS

Message 18666 · Etienne Ozorak · 16 Sep 1999 08:24:19 · Top

On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, M Sheffield wrote:

> What support did Fiddlesticks & Ivory, Etienne Ozorak, or Sylvia Miskoe and
> their players get from the RSCDS to produce the excelent recordings that
> give us so much pleasure?
> (a non-exclusive list of names that happened to come to my mind)

None from the RSCDS or TAC. I have no reason to belive that the RSCDS
would carry our recording though TAC and Highlander Music provide a good
distribution system, for which I am grateful.

Etienne

RSCDS

Message 18686 · ron.mackey · 16 Sep 1999 23:55:25 · Top

>
> While applauding the up-beat tone of Simon's letter -- it's good to hear
> something positive from time to time -- my sluggish brain was stimulated to
> raise the question:
> What support did Fiddlesticks & Ivory, Etienne Ozorak, or Sylvia Miskoe and
> their players get from the RSCDS to produce the excelent recordings that
> give us so much pleasure?
> (a non-exclusive list of names that happened to come to my mind)

Hi, Martin,
in Grenoble, France. :)

Just who do -you- think should give such support ?
If, as Simon demonstrates, it is US who should give the support, then
I think we do !
Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

RSCDS

Message 18690 · Richard L. Walker · 17 Sep 1999 00:20:37 · Top

The exception (and it is a big one) is when recorded tracks are copied and
swapped, given away, etc. (although I can't think of what any etc. might be
at this time). A lot of the CDs and tapes (and records in the past) are
made on a shoe-string budget and just "might" make darn few bucks, pounds or
whatever for the musicians.

Of course your part of the world might be pure as the driven snow, but I
still see quite a bit of "Hey I just got the so-and-so CD, tape or whatever.
Why don't you get the other-so-and-so and we can copy them and swap."

When this happens, and I see it happening extensively -- especially among
the teachers (tsk tsk) -- the US isn't giving the support it should.

-----Original Message-----
From: ron.mackey@post.btinternet.com
...Just who do -you- think should give such support ?
If, as Simon demonstrates, it is US who should give the support, then
I think we do !...

RSCDS

Message 18698 · Etienne Ozorak · 17 Sep 1999 03:36:03 · Top

It also occurs to me that TAC and Highlander Music were formed simply
because the RSCDS just couldn't be everything to everybody. We are
grateful for their presence as well.

Etienne

On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Richard L Walker wrote:

> The exception (and it is a big one) is when recorded tracks are copied and
> swapped, given away, etc. (although I can't think of what any etc. might be
> at this time). A lot of the CDs and tapes (and records in the past) are
> made on a shoe-string budget and just "might" make darn few bucks, pounds or
> whatever for the musicians.
>
> Of course your part of the world might be pure as the driven snow, but I
> still see quite a bit of "Hey I just got the so-and-so CD, tape or whatever.
> Why don't you get the other-so-and-so and we can copy them and swap."
>
> When this happens, and I see it happening extensively -- especially among
> the teachers (tsk tsk) -- the US isn't giving the support it should.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ron.mackey@post.btinternet.com
> ...Just who do -you- think should give such support ?
> If, as Simon demonstrates, it is US who should give the support, then
> I think we do !...
>
>
>

RSCDS

Message 18708 · SMiskoe · 17 Sep 1999 16:02:37 · Top

RSCDS has not done anything to support my musical efforts, either. I dont'
know if their library contains any of my recordings. However, TAC and
Highlander Music have been great distributors and this if a fine time to
publically thank them for their support. My perception of the RSCDS is that
they provide a great amount of support to dancers and teachers but very
little to the musicians who provide the reason for us to dance.
Cheers,
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH USA

RSCDS

Message 18711 · Anselm Lingnau · 17 Sep 1999 16:39:59 · Top

Sylvia Miskoe <SMiskoe@aol.com> writes:

> My perception of the RSCDS is that
> they provide a great amount of support to dancers and teachers but very
> little to the musicians who provide the reason for us to dance.

The RSCDS does sell (and occasionally publish) books of dance music,
and they also hold workshops for SCD musicians -- although of course not
at the same scale as the Summer School. They also commission CDs for
their books from a reasonable variety of dance bands.

Speaking as a part-time dance musician myself, it would of course be
great to see RSCDS support for dance musicians (as opposed to dance
teachers and dancers) stepped up. The question is what form that support
should take. The recorded-music market is apparently doing reasonably
well as it is, not least thanks to the good offices of outfits like
TACsound or Highlander Music, which are happy to send stuff basically
everywhere (so the RSCDS would not exactly fill a void by enlarging its
CD offerings, nice though this might be for other reasons).

What might be interesting to consider as a thing only the RSCDS could do
for musicians would be a `musicians' track' at a place like Summer
School. Imagine, as somebody fairly new to SCD music, taking a music
class instead of a dance class for a week or a fortnight, and playing
along with an experienced class musician for half a dance class or so
every other day, or even playing for social dancing in the evening. This
wouldn't just be good for the budding SCD musicians, but would provide
variety for the dancers as well. Of course it would also mean attracting
qualified SCD music teachers who aren't already booked solid as class
musicians, and the dancers would need to be prepared to tolerate
somewhat-less-than-perfection at times, but in the long run everybody
wins.

Some of the dance workshops in Germany over the last few years have
included music workshops as well. I'm fortunate to have been able to
attend some of them and have benefited greatly from the experience. Some
of them have even managed to attract musicians from outside the SCD
scene (one of the problems that we have here is that many of the dancers
who are also musicians would much rather dance than play, and the
musicians who are not dancers find it more difficult to relate to the
music ... but teach them to dance and you risk losing them as players).
The only problem is that there are so few of them!

Anselm

PS. This random signature program is beginning to make me feel uneasy.
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lingnau@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
-- A. H. Weiler

RSCDS

Message 18732 · ron.mackey · 18 Sep 1999 02:47:10 · Top


> Anselm
>
> PS. This random signature program is beginning to make me feel uneasy.
> --
> Anselm Lingnau ......................... lingnau@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
> Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
> -- A. H. Weiler

Hi, Anselm,
Everyone I ever worked for followed this principle ! :)

Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

RSCDS

Message 18719 · Norah Link · 17 Sep 1999 18:56:19 · Top

>>> <strathspey-request@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de> 17/09/99 08:39 am >>>

What might be interesting to consider as a thing only the RSCDS could do
for musicians would be a `musicians' track' at a place like Summer
School.
Anselm Lingnau
<<<

I was under the impression that there was a music class at Summer School this
year, or else they're planning one for next year. Muriel Johnstone was quite
excited about it when I saw her in August.

Norah

RSCDS

Message 18727 · barbara mcculloch · 17 Sep 1999 23:44:54 · Top

I have seen listings of RSCDS musicians' classes. Where I can't say but
yes, they exist.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

RSCDS

Message 18734 · ron.mackey · 18 Sep 1999 02:47:13 · Top

> It also occurs to me that TAC and Highlander Music were formed simply
> because the RSCDS just couldn't be everything to everybody. We are
> grateful for their presence as well.
>
> Etienne
>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Richard L Walker wrote:
----------------------
Please don't forget KELPI/SNDC. Lewis and Colin have been going
for very many years now and I have never known them to be beaten.
Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
l>
Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

Teacher Certification

Message 18654 · Lee Fuell · 15 Sep 1999 01:50:07 · Top

All,

The recent thread in response to John Carswell's criticism of the
RSCDS included complaints about some of the 1998 Summer
School teacher examinations, prompting commentary on
candidates who failed, feedback from examiners, and the like. This
brings up an issue that is a frequent point of discussion and
concern among my fellow dancers and I - the invariably negative
descriptions we hear about the teacher certification process. I
have no first-hand experience with the process, but I have had
teachers as well as teacher candidates who did not complete for
various reasons describe the process as "hateful," "horrible,"
"hellacious," and other similarly negative adjectives. We have one
exceptionally talented teacher who has a preliminary certificate but
will not move on to the full certificate because of unwillingness to
go through the "hell" of the process again. This is a pretty
indomitable, confident, and self-assured person who doesn't seem
to be easily deterred by a little reasonable stress!

I may have a significantly slanted perspective on this issue, and
would love to hear from other teachers out there who see this
differently. If my perception is wrong, I'd like some help changing
it. However, if this perception of the RSCDS teacher certification
process has is widespread, it certainly deters otherwise-qualified
candidates from pursuing teaching certificates. It certainly makes
me think twice about it for the future! In my view, "promoting and
preserving" Scottish Country Dance requires lots of enthusiastic,
motivated teachers. My perception (right or wrong) is that there
seems to be an adversarial relationship between candidates and
examiners, which is something the RSCDS needs to strive to
change. "Cooperate and Graduate" needs to be the attitude of all
involved in teacher certification. Obviously, some candidates just
won't be able to adequately demonstrate and communicate the
RSCDS style, but the RSCDS must do everything it can to
encourage the development of new teachers, and right now there
seems to be a lot of discouragement. The causes of the horror
stories I have been told about the certification process must be
addressed and eliminated.

Thanks very much for any insight anyone can provide,

Lee

Lee Fuell
President, Cincinnati Branch
Royal Scottish Country Dance Society
http://www.infinet.com/~plindsay/rscds/
fuell@infinet.com

Teacher Certification

Message 18663 · harvey · 15 Sep 1999 21:33:10 · Top

The teacher certification process is indeed hellish at times, but I
don't know of any good certifications that are painless. I can't say I
enjoyed my RSCDS examinations, but I learned a great deal each time.

While there are certainly mistakes made (people who should have gotten
it their first try, people who should never have been certified making
it) by and large the process seems effective and fair.

I say effective because candidates learn *a* method of teaching
SCD. You can argue about whether it is the best method, but at least
they have a method. SCD has the best and most uniform teaching style
of any dancing I have come across. I can't tell you how many non-SCD
dance "classes" I have been to where nothing was taught in any manner
except "watch me" (often at full speed). While this method works for
some students, I find the RSCDS method superior because it
incorporates "watch me" and adds breaking steps down into component
parts, verbal mnemonics and descriptions, explicit teaching of things
besides geography and feet, etc.

I say fair because *for the most part* the people who can use the
method pass, and those who can't, don't. Yes, there are errors made,
but you cannot have a 100% success rate in any certification process,
since no two human examiners are likely to agree 100% on, say, 200
candidates.

I *hated* the process when I was going through it, both times. At the
same time, I do not see simple ways to improve the process given what
the process must achieve. And every time I've heard other people's
ideas about what would "improve" the process, it was never something
simple or generally applicable, and it usually involved huge amounts
of work for the already overworked examiners.

I think the certification process, at its best, results in teachers
who think about *how* they are teaching for the rest of their careers,
and that is a valuable product.

Terry

Teacher Certification

Message 18670 · Norah Link · 16 Sep 1999 08:25:55 · Top

>>> Terry Harvey <harvey@mail.eecis.udel.edu> 15/09/99 01:31 pm >>>

The teacher certification process is indeed hellish at times, but I
don't know of any good certifications that are painless. I can't say I
enjoyed my RSCDS examinations, but I learned a great deal each time.

8< big snip >8

I think the certification process, at its best, results in teachers
who think about *how* they are teaching for the rest of their careers,
and that is a valuable product.

<<<

Terry -

I think you've made some very positive points about the process, and they deserve
to be said. Let me say that I agree wholeheartedly, and applaud you for saying
them. In fact, I sometimes think the (real and perceived) "mistakes" get so much
publicity that they devalue what the rest of us have been through and now have to
offer as a result.

Should we still examine the process? Sure! It's like examining the aims of the
Society and how it is achieving them. Never hurts to examine the issue from time
to time and see if improvements can be made while maintaining the basic aim.
Getting there one step at a time, rather than risking throwing the baby out with
the bathwater, but still being open to new ideas. And if people are really
rebelling against it, maybe it's important to sit down and find out why.

If nothing else, this open discussion helps prepare potential candidates, as well
as tutors and examiners, for what they will go through and understand why. And a
frank, open defence of the process such as you offered just might help a few
people put things in perspective.

cheers,
Norah

Teacher Certification

Message 18674 · GIR · 16 Sep 1999 12:57:25 · Top

I think Alan Paterson has said most of the things I could say.
I also really enjoyed my two weeks of stress in St. Andrews both times. Maybe
because I had the same tutor :-)
(But no, I haven't been in the same class)

Actually, I liked to be in St. Andrews this year, not having to take a test at
all. But I really, really missed the very special athmosphere you had in those
classes.
You are a group, you are working together and that is what I remember best.
On the other hand I have seen classes with more difficulties, where people don't
match and you don't get that feeling of grouip-comfort. (I think, I haven't ask
:-) ), so it may be sort of luck to be in that group which is best for you.

I was lucky in this case, I was lucky to have a tutor which I liked and I was
lucky to pass.
So I don't know what I would say, if one or more of this things haden't figured
out that way.
But I remember that at the end of the Prelim Weeks it wasn't really importent to
me to pass, I was at that point quite happy about the things I have learned and
passing of the exam was a nice plus.
But I also realised that in some areas a exam is much more important than in our
area, and maybe thats the really stessfull point.

An exam is an exam, and its stressfull, otherwise it's no exam.
But if the people at home treat you as sombody with no mind, or talent, or... if
you don't pass, THAT's a harmfull thing.
Maybe a point to think about?

An other point: I know the written exam seems to be the least important thing,
but I was happy it was a written one, not a verbal one, because I hate to be
questioned by an examiner, but I like to write it down. It has been like this
since school.
But maybe other people hate to write and love to talk?
Would it be a possibility for those to skip the written part and being
questioned instead?
It would be more or something else to do for teh examinars, but is it worth
thinking about?

I have seen people who haven't passed.
In some cases i don't know why, in some cases it was the thing to be expected
before.
But in some cases it was just because they got nervous during the teaching part,
but normaly they teach very nice.
I am sorry about that, but I don't have an idea what to change about this. It's
the same thing in every exam you can take. You now before and after, but during
the exam there is a black hole in your head. (I know what I am talking about :-(
beeing questioned is calling for a black hole..)
In other exams they have tried to change it a bit and mix the test-result with
the results of the things they have seen the time before (For example the german
abitur, the results of the last two years in school count,) but still the final
test is the most important thing. If you don't pass it, you could have been
execellent before, you simply don't pass.
So if somebody comes up with a praktikal idea to change this, it would be
something to change. But i have no idea.

A last thing:
What would be the harm in doing the exam as often as you want?
Why is there the "3 chances and you are out"-thing?
Maybe it could reduce the stress not beeing limited like this.
How many people who failed because they where nervous get it in the third try
knowing it's the very last chance?

Greetings,
Anja

Anja Girards
Cologne, Germany

Teacher Certification

Message 18676 · Richard L. Walker · 16 Sep 1999 16:26:28 · Top

Interesting the way a single detail speaks so loudly.

-----Original Message-----
From: Anja Girards [mailto:GIR@grs.de]
...A last thing:
What would be the harm in doing the exam as often as you want?
Why is there the "3 chances and you are out"-thing?...

Teacher Certification

Message 18692 · ron.mackey · 17 Sep 1999 00:36:35 · Top

Richard wrote......

> Interesting the way a single detail speaks so loudly.
>----------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anja Girards [mailto:GIR@grs.de]
> ...A last thing:
> What would be the harm in doing the exam as often as you want?
> Why is there the "3 chances and you are out"-thing?...
-----------------------------------
Hi,
Could it be that those organising the exams are afraid of having 3
new applicants and 20 who have tried before ?

Cheers, Ron :)

< 0 Ron Mackey,(Purveyor of Pat's Party Pieces)
'O> Mottingham,
/#\ London. UK.
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Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com

Teacher Certification

Message 18695 · Norah Link · 17 Sep 1999 01:27:33 · Top

>>> Ron Mackey <Ron.Mackey@btinternet.com> 16/09/99 04:37 pm >>>

> What would be the harm in doing the exam as often as you want?
> Why is there the "3 chances and you are out"-thing?...

Could it be that those organising the exams are afraid of having 3
new applicants and 20 who have tried before ?
<<<

But they could get that now, Ron! Are you just trying to get somebody's dander
up? I notice the ;^).

Besides, the minimum time period between tries ought to eliminate those just doing
it again without preparing again. And one would think that most people who
haven't got it after a certain number of tries will just stop trying.

Norah

Teacher Certification

Message 18696 · Richard L. Walker · 17 Sep 1999 01:52:48 · Top

I sincerely hope not.

The question I always ask myself is why so many candidates who have been
told by their tutors they are ready, fail? What is broken? Compare this
with college courses (or any other for that matter) where MOST candidates
pass. Always confusing to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: ron.mackey@post.btinternet.com
Richard wrote......
> Interesting the way a single detail speaks so loudly.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anja Girards [mailto:GIR@grs.de]
Hi,
Could it be that those organising the exams are afraid of having 3
new applicants and 20 who have tried before ?

Teacher Certification

Message 18700 · Dianna Shipman · 17 Sep 1999 08:31:46 · Top

Does anyone know what percentage of candidates pass and what percentage fail
on their first try on each exam? on the second try? third try?
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman@worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard L Walker <rlwalker@granis.net>
To: <strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: Teacher Certification

> I sincerely hope not.
>
> The question I always ask myself is why so many candidates who have been
> told by their tutors they are ready, fail? What is broken? Compare this
> with college courses (or any other for that matter) where MOST candidates
> pass. Always confusing to me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ron.mackey@post.btinternet.com
> Richard wrote......
> > Interesting the way a single detail speaks so loudly.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anja Girards [mailto:GIR@grs.de]
> Hi,
> Could it be that those organising the exams are afraid of having 3
> new applicants and 20 who have tried before ?
>
>
>

Teacher Certification

Message 18705 · Ian Brockbank · 17 Sep 1999 12:23:04 · Top

Hi Dianna,

> Does anyone know what percentage of candidates pass and what
> percentage fail on their first try on each exam? on the second try?
> third try?

I can only speak from the latest Edinburgh Branch exams, but in the
full class 7 of the 8 candidates passed (I don't think there were any
retries, but I may be wrong). In the prelim, 5 of the 10 candidates
passed, with the person on their ?3rd? attempt being once again
unsuccessful.

Cheers,

Ian
--
Ian Brockbank, Indigo Active Vision Systems, The Edinburgh Technopole,
Bush Loan, Edinburgh EH26 0PJ Tel: 0131-475-7234 Fax: 0131-475-7201
work: ian@indigo-avs.com personal: Ian.Brockbank@bigfoot.com
web: ScottishDance@bigfoot.com http://www.scottishdance.net/

Teacher Certification

Message 18706 · Alan Paterson · 17 Sep 1999 13:28:10 · Top

Ian Brockbank wrote:

> > Does anyone know what percentage of candidates pass and what
> > percentage fail on their first try on each exam? on the second try?
> > third try?
>
> I can only speak from the latest Edinburgh Branch exams, but in the
> full class 7 of the 8 candidates passed (I don't think there were any
> retries, but I may be wrong). In the prelim, 5 of the 10 candidates
> passed, with the person on their ?3rd? attempt being once again
> unsuccessful.

This MUST be only coincidence, but of my group who took the Teachers'
examination, 7 out of 8 passed. 2 years ago, in my Prelim group, 5 out of
10 passed. One person was taking it for the 3rd time - and failed.

Alan

Teacher Certification

Message 18707 · Rebecca Sager · 17 Sep 1999 14:13:10 · Top

At TAC Summer School last year - 14 of 18 Prelims passed, and of Norah's
group of Fulls, 8 of 11.
We were blessed with great tutors and a lovely group of people

Becky

Becky Sager
Marietta GA USA

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