strathspey Archive: How do I get Fun Dances?

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How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16104 · Campbell Downie · 25 Feb 1999 04:43:57 · Top

Hi

Many of you will know that I have been advocating the publication of dances
on the web for some time now. I shall not go in to arguments for and
against which have already been aired but I would like to quote the
following which I think comes from Eric Ferguson and puts the case far
better than I could have done:-

> [just a note aside: The tradition of not posting derives from copyright
> legislation, which is intended to protect the interests of authors. I
remain
> of the opinion that with few exceptions the interests of dance devisors
> would be better served by publishing on the List: if an unknown dance
> like this one gets posted, there will be many more people who order the
> full dance leaflet with music than if it is not posted. ]

I have been folowing the recent thread on Fun dances with great interest
and I am indebted to Diane Shipman for tabulating the list of dances.

When I look at this list I find that I do not have the words for the
following dances:-

Balgeddie Reel Memories of Fife p2 Brandon, Mary
Barmkin 24 Graded & Social Dances Goldring, Roy
Captain John Hunter Bicentennial Book Roberts, Olivia
Catch the Wind Island Bay Collection Butterfield,Romaine
Culla Bay Reel Friends Dix, Ann
Green Burn
Hamilton Hornpipe Dickson, John B
Homeward Bound (3)
Mayflower Dancing through Nova Scotia Kent Pat
Michelle's S'Spey
Minister on the Loch 24 Graded & Social Dances Goldring, Roy
New Abbey 24 Graded & Social Dances Goldring, Roy
Orca Reel Dolphin Book Skelton Barry
Ross of Mull Wasatch Mountain Collection Beattie, Bob
Scotland's Gardens Goldring, Roy
Sharing and Caring Cumming, A Leslie
Shetland Fiddler (2)
Strathcare Skye Collection Miller Wilma
Swashbuckling Iain San Francisco Collection Vol 2 Hunt Carolyn
Wandering Piper 24 Graded & Social Dances Goldring, Roy
Wrekin Havoc Kinrossmuir Collection Ross, Kathleen

I have gleaned this information from DanceData (Alan Paterson), and you
will see that apart from Roy Goldring and the book "24 Graded & Social
Dances", which I have already orderd from SNDC, every dance comes from a
different collection and a different deviser. There are three dances
called "Homeward Bound", and two called "Shetland Fiddler". How can I
know which is meant?

Most of these collections or leaflets are not in either the TACBOOKS nor
SNDC lists, and those with no information are not in the DanceData database

As the teacher of an isolated branch here in South Africa, how am I going
to get the instructions for these dance which are labelled "FUN DANCES",
which I naturally want to teach to my class.

So my challenge is:-

Is anybody going to send me the words for these dances privately, or
publish them on the net?

Cheers

Campbell


Campbell Downie
PO Box 101269
Scottsville
3209 South Africa

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16105 · Benjamin Stein · 25 Feb 1999 05:58:30 · Top

I would call the recent correspondent's attention to an earlier thread
where it was made quite clear that the publishers of many of these dances=

not only have copyrights to the dances but may depend on the income from
the sale of the publications to defray the cost of publication and may al=
so
be earning some income from them. To publish such dances on the net witho=
ut
the dance authors permission is probably doing an injustice to whoever
composed the dances. They are not always in the public domain!

Of the fourteen dances listed in the E-mail letter that show the names of=

publications, I have ten in copies of the publications that I obtained fr=
om
TACbooks (except for the Dolphin book which was obtained from the author =
on
a trip to New Zealand). It might be considered OK to communicate directio=
ns
for a particular dance directly between correspondents but certainly wide=

disemination on the net should, at least for the moment, be out of the
question.

Ben Stein
Burlington, Vt. USA
dancers@compuserve.com

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16107 · Richard L. Walker · 25 Feb 1999 07:38:24 · Top

How on earth did anyone come to the conclusion that the recent discussion
about piece-meal distribution of dance instructions on the internet was
advocating copyright infringement. Every time the subject is even broached,
lawyer-wanna-be types jump in with keyboards heated to the danger level.

This was my comment:
<Ahh, like sheet music. Might be a concept just slightly before its time.
The internet might be just the tool to let this type purchasing become a
reality for a lot of things that historically had to be purchased as part of
a package deal. I'm not aware of any place doing it yet though.>

The term purchasing is there. A statement that the technology isn't quite
ready is there. A comment that I don't know of any sites having the
technology is there. Dianne was even more explicit about the devisors
needing to be reimbursed for their efforts.

If I were advocating being illegal, the technology is ready and in place
now. Why the lectures every time this particular subject comes up? It's a
subject and technology near and dear to my heart and I can't even comment
about it without bracing for the "some devisor is going to starve to death
because he/she isn't going to get reimbursed" routine.

Well, them's my two cents. Until I spend a dime I'm not filtering me out of
my e-mail either.

Richard L Walker
rlwalker@granis.net
Pensacola, FL 32504-7726 USA

-----Original Message-----
I would call the recent correspondent's attention to an earlier thread
where it was made quite clear that the publishers of many of these dances
not only have copyrights to the dances but may depend on the income from
the sale of the publications to defray the cost of publication and may also
be earning some income from them. To publish such dances on the net without
the dance authors permission is probably doing an injustice to whoever
composed the dances. They are not always in the public domain!

Of the fourteen dances listed in the E-mail letter that show the names of
publications, I have ten in copies of the publications that I obtained from
TACbooks (except for the Dolphin book which was obtained from the author on
a trip to New Zealand). It might be considered OK to communicate directions
for a particular dance directly between correspondents but certainly wide
disemination on the net should, at least for the moment, be out of the
question.

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16109 · Freeman/Pavey · 25 Feb 1999 18:01:51 · Top

Richard L Walker wrote:

> How on earth did anyone come to the conclusion that the recent discussion
> about piece-meal distribution of dance instructions on the internet was
> advocating copyright infringement. A statement that the technology isn't
> quite ready is there. Dianne was even more explicit about the devisors
> needing to be reimbursed for their efforts.

It seems to me that we have the technology for voluntary payments to a central
distribution site at which copy write holders have registered. A simple web
site would suffice. In the music business concert producers have to voluntarily
submit programmes to a central tallying organization (SOCAN in Canada).
Voluntary payment also seems to work reasonably well for downloading software,
why not dance programmes at a dollar a dance. I see no reason to preclude the
implementation of a procedure just because it easily permits cheating by the
few. Am I naive in thinking that 80% of the people using such a service would
send payment?

Problems:
1. Copy write holders would likely be unfamiliar and unready for this method of
distribution. Cosh, Drewry, Goldring and RSCDS, however would provide a nice
start.
2. Someone has to maintain the site, tally the payments and distribute cheques
every six months or a year. This, however, could be a part time business
venture for some individual or some organization like RSCDS or TAC. (Although I
suspect these are already taxed to the limit with their current obligations.)
At 40% for the distributor and 60% for the copy write holder it might be a very
workable project.

Cole
Maberly, Canada

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16110 · Michael Schulte · 25 Feb 1999 18:34:29 · Top

tay@rideau.net writes:
>
> 2. Someone has to maintain the site, tally the payments and distribute cheques
> every six months or a year. This, however, could be a part time business
> venture for some individual or some organization like RSCDS or TAC. (Although I
> suspect these are already taxed to the limit with their current obligations.)
> At 40% for the distributor and 60% for the copy write holder it might be a very
> workable project.
>

Are you volunteering? :)

Otherwise, I think it could be very useful.

--
Michael Schulte Specialist in Computer Science
UM-St. Louis schulte@cs.umsl.edu
8001 Natural Bridge Road (314) 516 5239
St. Louis, MO 63121 USA

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16111 · Freeman/Pavey · 25 Feb 1999 19:01:41 · Top

Michael Schulte wrote:

> Are you volunteering? :)

No.

Cole
http://www.peterboro.net/~tay/
Scottish Country Dancing in Eastern Ontario

Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16114 · Richard L. Walker · 25 Feb 1999 20:47:31 · Top

The site I am visualizing, handles the orders, payments (probably via.
credit card) and delivery (file download for many things). Even better, the
online portion of the business, for the most part) would be automated. No
need to even worry about the few with this type setup.

Richard L Walker
rlwalker@granis.net
Pensacola, FL 32504-7726 USA

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16115 · Freeman/Pavey · 25 Feb 1999 21:44:30 · Top

Richard L Walker wrote:

> The site I am visualizing, handles the orders, payments (probably via.
> credit card) and delivery (file download for many things). Even better, the
> online portion of the business, for the most part) would be automated. No
> need to even worry about the few with this type setup.

But you say this is not now technically feasible. Couldn't an email order be
placed with a credit card number and then the info sent manually within, say 24
hours. Not totally automatic, but not too much of a bother either and no
worries about "the few". If something currently possible could be set up with
remuneration to make it worth the trouble, then the automation could follow as
the technical capability is acquired. The big catch, of course, is who? I
think it might be an interesting hobby/business with minimal maintenance after
the initial set up.

Cole
--
http://www.peterboro.net/~tay/
Scottish Country Dancing in Eastern Ontario

Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16116 · Ian Price · 25 Feb 1999 22:31:24 · Top

Message text written by INTERNET:strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.d=
e
>To publish such dances on the net without
>the dance authors permission is probably doing an injustice to whoever
>composed the dances. They are not always in the public domain!<

Why assume that what is being proposed is to publish them WITHOUT
permission? That was not what was advocated.

-2chter

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16118 · Ian Price · 25 Feb 1999 22:36:19 · Top

Message text written by INTERNET:strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.d=
e
>How on earth did anyone come to the conclusion that the recent discussio=
n
about piece-meal distribution of dance instructions on the internet was
advocating copyright infringement. Every time the subject is even
broached,
lawyer-wanna-be types jump in with keyboards heated to the danger level.<=

Whilst we're jumping to conclusions, this kind of logic doesn't have to b=
e
stretched too far to claim that anything ever posted on the Internet
infringes someone's copyright..

Oops, I think I just infringed Richard Walker's implied copyright by
reply-quoting the above. Mea culpa! =

So, sue me.

-2chter

Jessie, the Flo'oer o Dunblane.

Message 16132 · Etienne Ozorak · 26 Feb 1999 15:54:40 · Top

Hi,

Does anyone know who wrote the words to this song? The air dates back to
about 1820. (My Kenneth mackellar album says it's a person named Smith).

Thanks
Etienne

Jessie, the Flo'oer o Dunblane.

Message 16140 · Stella Fogg · 26 Feb 1999 22:06:59 · Top

My ancient, tattered and torn "Songs of Scotland" twelfth edition, printed
in 1877, lists the poetry by Tannahill and it's listed as "Jessie, the
flower o' Dumblane". I have seen it both ways, Dumblane and Dunblane,
flo'oer and flower.
Stella

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16119 · Malcolm and Helen Brown · 25 Feb 1999 23:14:00 · Top

Greetings;

Last year we finally managed to publish a book of dances devised
by the various members of our family. We decided that the only
economic way was to duplicate the pages using a photocopier, (paying)
and to bind it ourselves using spiral binding.
The reason for using old fashioned print and paper is of course that
most people still do not have access to the Web.
However we produced 100 copies, which were then avaialble for
sale, so we had to decide on a price. Ignoring the cost of the
equipment purchased to laminate the covers, and the equipment to
bind the books, but considering the cost of duplication, we
decided on a selling price. However, we also wanted to sell some
at summer school, so the RSCDS wanted a reduced price, as did TAC.
(As TAC paid for the transportation costs, their reduction was
quite understandable)

What I am trying to explain is that once someone decides to publish
a collection of dances they start by spending money, and are reliant
on sales to recoup their costs. Until web access becomes universal,
uncontrolled duplication of new and available dances will be
fraught with possible complications.

I would also like to say that I have the words for only about 3000
dances, the titles of which are on my own database, i.e. there are
about 6000 I haven't got instructions for. The initial reason for
starting the data base was embarrassment at not knowing which dances
I did have. Now of course it helps me to find them, if I do have
them - however although I have most of Roy Goldring's dances, there
were a lot dances on "the list" which I didn't have, a fact which
I find worrying!

Malcolm


--
_ _
|_|_ |_| Malcolm & Helen Brown - York (UK) - m.brown@netcomuk.co.uk (Tir-Nan-Og)
_ |_|_
|_| _|_| Connecting via NETCOM Internet Ltd
|_|

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16131 · RMess61412 · 26 Feb 1999 15:50:18 · Top

Don't look now folks, but in the morning paper today (Atlanta Journal). The
FCC has finally decided to allow the phone companies to charge Internet
service providers a long distance fee for use of the net. It may or may not be
billed according to your connect time. They are still hashing it out. The
thing bothering them is that it's a one way call. Someone has to get
compensation/taxed, so I guess we get soaked again maybe.

Bob Messner Atlanta

Politics and the internet (used to be something else)

Message 16136 · Richard L. Walker · 26 Feb 1999 19:01:39 · Top

Mine was a different take when I read it last night. They refused to allow
the charging at this time but instructed everyone to submit how it might be
done in the future. Do you think its a ploy to give total control of the
internet to BellSouth and other telephone companies who have their own ISP
services. How do you spell, "conflict of interest?" Also, the government
can't continue to allow all this free speech on the internet so it has to
start putting barriers in the way -- hardly noticeable now; hard to miss
later.

Richard L Walker
rlwalker@granis.net
Pensacola, FL 32504-7726 USA

-----Original Message-----
From: RMess61412@aol.com [mailto:RMess61412@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:49 AM
To: strathspey@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Subject:

Don't look now folks, but in the morning paper today (Atlanta Journal). The
FCC has finally decided to allow the phone companies to charge Internet
service providers a long distance fee for use of the net. It may or may not
be
billed according to your connect time. They are still hashing it out. The
thing bothering them is that it's a one way call. Someone has to get
compensation/taxed, so I guess we get soaked again maybe.

Bob Messner Atlanta

--
RMess61412@aol.com

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16161 · e.ferguson · 28 Feb 1999 14:55:51 · Top

----------
>
> Greetings;
>
> Last year we finally managed to publish a book of dances devised
> by the various members of our family. We decided that the only
> economic way was to duplicate the pages using a photocopier, (paying)
> and to bind it ourselves using spiral binding.
> The reason for using old fashioned print and paper is of course that
> most people still do not have access to the Web.
> However we produced 100 copies, which were then avaialble for
> sale, so we had to decide on a price. Ignoring the cost of the
> equipment purchased to laminate the covers, and the equipment to
> bind the books, but considering the cost of duplication, we
> decided on a selling price. However, we also wanted to sell some
> at summer school, so the RSCDS wanted a reduced price, as did TAC.
> (As TAC paid for the transportation costs, their reduction was
> quite understandable)
>
> What I am trying to explain is that once someone decides to publish
> a collection of dances they start by spending money, and are reliant
> on sales to recoup their costs. Until web access becomes universal,
> uncontrolled duplication of new and available dances will be
> fraught with possible complications.
>
> I would also like to say that I have the words for only about 3000
> dances, the titles of which are on my own database, i.e. there are
> about 6000 I haven't got instructions for. The initial reason for
> starting the data base was embarrassment at not knowing which dances
> I did have. Now of course it helps me to find them, if I do have
> them - however although I have most of Roy Goldring's dances, there
> were a lot dances on "the list" which I didn't have, a fact which
> I find worrying!
>
> Malcolm
>
>
> --
> _ _
> |_|_ |_| Malcolm & Helen Brown - York (UK) - m.brown@netcomuk.co.uk
> (Tir-Nan-Og)
> _ |_|_
> |_| _|_| Connecting via NETCOM Internet Ltd
> |_|
>

How do I get Fun Dances?

Message 16159 · Campbell Downie · 28 Feb 1999 09:18:08 · Top

Hi all

I have followed this thread with great interest

I expected to stir up the copyright question again and was not disappointed

Although I am a Scot I was not primarily interested in getting something
for nothing, but in making it easier for teachers and dancers to access
dances, and I think the suggestions about establishing some sort of
exchange centre on the net where this could be done at a reasonable cost is
very valuable one and I hope it can be got going. It sounds too much for
a private individual, and RSCDS and TASCBooks were suggested, possibly SNDC
might be interested too.

The proof of the pudding (whatever the pudding is) is that I now have 19
out of the 21 Fun Dances I wanted, and I sincerely hope that this means
that my pupils are going to have lots of Fun.

Campbell

Campbell Downie
PO Box 101269
Scottsville
3209 South Africa

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