Corners

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Message 46263 · 27 Sep 2006 19:37:28 · Fixed-width font · Whole thread

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I was going to sit this round out, but no one has pointed out the one advantage to mentioning that the corner people are in some other place "i.e. face first corner people who are in thrid corner positions" is to reassure people that they are actually facing a person of the 'correct' sex. I tend to use 'third corner positions' by itself but tack on a comment about 'where you will find your first corner person' if people look confused. Admittedly, this doesn't work in a large hall, but sometimes it allows the talk through to proceed without disruption.

Otherwise I completely agree that expecting the 1s to remember who their 1st corners are and then find that person whereever they might be in the set, is an unreasonably hazardous way to recap a dance.

Bruce Herbold
SF Branch



-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 6:18 AM
Subject: Strathspey Digest, Vol 22, Issue 28

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Corners (Alasdair Graham)
2. RE: Corners (xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx)
3. RE: Mairi vs. Mhairi (was: Vinyl) (George Meikle)
4. RE: Corners (mlamontbrown)
5. RE: Mairi vs. Mhairi (was: Vinyl) (Ian Brockbank)
6. Button Button..... (XxxxxxxxxXxxx@xxx.xxx)
7. Re: Button Button..... (Alasdair Graham)
8. RE: Corners (Dick Daniel)
9. Re: Corners (Bryan McAlister)
10. RE: Corners (Ian Brockbank)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:34:26 +0100
From: "Alasdair Graham" <xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: Corners
To: "James Tween" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>, "SCD news and discussion"
<xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <005101c6e218$1fc25600$x500x8x0@XxxxXxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response

James,

In my experience the only people who refer to the 4 positions (corners) as
1st corner, 2nd corner, partner's 1st corner # or worse # go to 1st corner
who is in partner's 1st corner position etc etc, are the Teacher's
recapping at dances.

Almost without exception, when this happens dancers in the set state "they
have lost me" and ask what does the recapper mean. Explaining using 1st,
2nd, 3rd & 4th corner immediately clears up the misunderstanding.

It seems to be almost exclusively 'establishment officials' who persist in
using this 'establishment convention' despite the fact that it actually
confuses most of the dancers. The long worded approach should be kept for
occasions when only experts are present. At dances here in Scotland most of
the dancers are not even RSCDS members and it's no wonder they are confused.

Alasdair Graham
Dumbarton, Scotland.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Tween" <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: "SCD news and discussion" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:09 PM
Subject: Corners

> Just a question, possibly a vote, but which do you like or use:
> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
> or
> 1st, 2nd, partner's 1st, partner's 2nd?
>
> Also, linked to this, do you find it easier if dance instructions talk
> more of positions or people, e.g. "face 1st corner people" or "face 2nd
> corner positions"?
>
> Is there a correct way, or just personal preference?
>
> Does it depend what you're doing when using the terms?
>
> Thanks.
>
> James
> Preston, UK
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:06:33 +0200 (SAST)
From: xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: RE: Corners
To: xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx, "SCD news and discussion"
<xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<22473.165.165.211.132.1159351593.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Ian wrote:
> I use 1st, 2nd, partner's 1st and partner's 2nd because my understanding
> is that those terms are universal whereas 3rd and 4th are not (even if
> simpler and consistent).

I am not sure these are universal, or not more universal than the other
options. I use 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th corners because these, as Ian says,
are simpler and consistent. For newcomers to SCD, "partner's corner" is
an extra level of difficulty to manage that is unnecessary. If they have
managed to understand 1st and 2nd corners (and the fact that on the second
repetition they have to shift them all one place up), extending it to 3rd
and 4th is relatively easy. Working around a second set of 1st and 2nd
corners, which have to be mentally inverted in one's head to make sense,
whilst trying to dance at the same time, is to me unnecessarily
challenging. As for "1st corner in partner's 2nd corner position" or
similar, this is the product of a warped mind!! Now you are asking
someone to remember who started in a particular position and then work out
where they are going to be in 2 bars time so you can anticipate in which
direction to turn, whilst at the same time working out where partner's 2nd
corner position is when you have only just come from your own 1st corner
position where you happened to meet your grandmother.

To me, it is a "no-brainer" but then I am a relative newcomer to SCD and
so I am not steeped in the intricacies of nomenclature.

Campbell Tyler
Cape Town

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:17:22 +0100
From: "George Meikle" <xxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: Mairi vs. Mhairi (was: Vinyl)
To: <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>, "'SCD news and discussion'"
<xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <000401c6e21e$1f803530$0201x8x0@XXXxxxxx>
Keywords: Mailing list
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ian Brockbank wrote:-

> Anyway, Hugh Foss wrote the dance and
> called it Mairi's Wedding.

I don't think so as it was Jimmy Cosh who devised the dance and called it
Mairi's Wedding.

George Meikle
Lothian Scottish Dance Band

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:24:07 +0100
From: "mlamontbrown" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: Corners
To: "'SCD news and discussion'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<mlamontbrown%40btopenworld.com%40btinternet.com$213.122.54.173$.000f01c6e21f$116e1b50$xx367xx5@xxxxxxxxxxx40x>

Keywords: Mailing list
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

When all we did with corners was "Set & Turn" / "Turn corner, partner" / "Set to
corners (& Partner") / "Reel of three" etc, then it didn't matter whether we
were
referring to people or positions. Once we started doing half diagonal reels of
four /
corners dancing 1/2 rights & lefts while the 1st couple did something else /
corners
dancing half reels of three across (sometimes followed by 1/2 reels of three on
the
side), then some form of clarification became necessary.

Probably one of the earliest examples of this was "Rest & Be Thankful", where
McConachie has the instruction "finish facing their usual 1st corner position".

Those people who only refer to first and second corners in a talk through seem
to be
oblivious to the confusion that is caused - (Peggy Dewar is probably the best
example
of this from our recent dances) - while for written instructions it doesn't
matter
too much providing the instructions are clear because the teacher has time to
work
out where people have moved to, when people are walking a dance for the first
time
they are concentrating on where they are going, not on what is happening to the
other
people. Instructions such as "finish facing second corners, who are now on the
opposite sides" are hardly helpful when dancers are trying to work out where to
go.

When I am dancing I want to know which direction to face at the end of a figure,
and
for me 1st / 2nd / 3rd & 4th corners provides me with all the information I
need, as
the corner positions don't move in relation to the top of the set.

Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:26:07 +0100
From: "Ian Brockbank" <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: Mairi vs. Mhairi (was: Vinyl)
To: "'George Meikle'" <xxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: 'SCD news and discussion' <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <006501c6e21f$58f2d290$191414xx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>
Keywords: Mailing list
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi George,

> > Anyway, Hugh Foss wrote the dance and called it Mairi's Wedding.
>
> I don't think so as it was Jimmy Cosh who devised the dance and called it
> Mairi's Wedding.

D'oh! Well, I believe all the other facts in the email were correct.

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
http://www.scottishdance.net/

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:02:55 EDT
From: XxxxxxxxxXxxx@xxx.xxx
Subject: Button Button.....
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <xx9.3276xxx.324xx45x@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

who's got the button...?

Button Button, who's got the button?

Only one more week to by tickets online for the Flora Macdonald Ball and
have a BUTTON and dance booklet waiting for you.

Visit this page to view buttons and order tickets.
_http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page2.html_
(http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page2.html)

PS: If already planning to attend and you'd like to donate an item for the
silent auction, see this page! _http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page30.html_
(http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page30.html)

Thanks "Y'all!"

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:06:10 +0100
From: "Alasdair Graham" <xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: Button Button.....
To: "SCD news and discussion" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <009e01c6e224$f05c7910$x500x8x0@XxxxXxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Can the 'button' dance?

----- Original Message -----
From: <XxxxxxxxxXxxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:02 PM
Subject: Button Button.....

> who's got the button...?
>
> Button Button, who's got the button?
>
> Only one more week to by tickets online for the Flora Macdonald Ball and
> have a BUTTON and dance booklet waiting for you.
>
> Visit this page to view buttons and order tickets.
> _http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page2.html_
> (http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page2.html)
>
> PS: If already planning to attend and you'd like to donate an item for the
> silent auction, see this page!
> _http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page30.html_
> (http://www.floramacdonaldball.com/page30.html)
>
> Thanks "Y'all!"
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:45:41 +0100
From: "Dick Daniel" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: Corners
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <XXX114-X2514594169X0X1556X9950XX1X0@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I consider "1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th corners" is best - concise, easily
distinguished over a busy [noisy?] dance floor, and definitive if these are
considered positions rather than people.

Consider a hypothetical situation where 1st man is required to face his 3rd
corner, while 1st lady faces her 4th corner. [I know of no current dance
where this occurs, but it is not impossible] Using the "1st, 2nd, Partner's
1st, Partner's 2nd" convention, it would be necessary to say
"First man faces his partner's 1st corner, while 1st lady faces her
partner's second corner"
rather than
"First man faces his 3rd corner while 1st lady faces her 4th corner"
And that's without bringing the words "person" and "position" into it.

But [There's always a but] this all becomes extremely confusing in any dance
including "Double Corners". It's one thing remembering that you are
instantaneously in the position of 1st lady's First Corner and 1st Man's
Third Corner with 4 conventional corners, but it's easier to think of the
Double Corner to be a 1st and 2nd corner [generally alternating], rather
than instantaneously 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th corner in the double corner
situation. So in these exceptional conditions, I think it is better to
merely think of them as 1st and 2nd corners Remember, the dancing couple
must know where their corners are AND the corners must know which corner
they are {in}, so that they can all help one another when/if necessary.

A further point. I think instructions should be concise, and clear and also
PHONETICALLY DISTINGUISHABLE - [e.g. "reel" and "wheel" are easy to mishear;
"1st" and "3rd" are easily differentiated; "1st" and "Partners 1st" can
sometimes be misheard]

To the best of my belief, RSCDS "officially" confuse things well beyond any
of this [What's new] They consider when you are on the sideline, you face
your first corner PERSON, whereas if you are back to back with your partner
facing this first corner person, YOU are in FIRST CORNER POSITION. Lord
knows how they describe facing your 1st Corner person on the sidelines, in
your
partner's 2nd corner place.

The whole system needs an overhaul by someone sane with some knowledge of
STANDARDISATION.

Confused?????

Dick Daniel

>From: xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx
>Reply-To: SCD news and discussion <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>To: xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx,"SCD news and discussion"
><xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>Subject: RE: Corners
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:06:33 +0200 (SAST)
>
>Ian wrote:
> > I use 1st, 2nd, partner's 1st and partner's 2nd because my understanding
> > is that those terms are universal whereas 3rd and 4th are not (even if
> > simpler and consistent).
>
>I am not sure these are universal, or not more universal than the other
>options. I use 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th corners because these, as Ian says,
>are simpler and consistent. For newcomers to SCD, "partner's corner" is
>an extra level of difficulty to manage that is unnecessary. If they have
>managed to understand 1st and 2nd corners (and the fact that on the second
>repetition they have to shift them all one place up), extending it to 3rd
>and 4th is relatively easy. Working around a second set of 1st and 2nd
>corners, which have to be mentally inverted in one's head to make sense,
>whilst trying to dance at the same time, is to me unnecessarily
>challenging. As for "1st corner in partner's 2nd corner position" or
>similar, this is the product of a warped mind!! Now you are asking
>someone to remember who started in a particular position and then work out
>where they are going to be in 2 bars time so you can anticipate in which
>direction to turn, whilst at the same time working out where partner's 2nd
>corner position is when you have only just come from your own 1st corner
>position where you happened to meet your grandmother.
>
>To me, it is a "no-brainer" but then I am a relative newcomer to SCD and
>so I am not steeped in the intricacies of nomenclature.
>
>Campbell Tyler
>Cape Town
>
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:09:35 +0100
From: Bryan McAlister <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: Corners
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <0XXX02XxxxXXXxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed

Personal preference is 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th - the position never changes
the people often do. No-one should to try to remember what a "1st corner
person" is especially when they're in 3rd corner.

In message <00d401c6e0c5$632201b0$03450352@XxxxxXxxxx>, James Tween
<xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> writes
>Just a question, possibly a vote, but which do you like or use:
>1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
>or
>1st, 2nd, partner's 1st, partner's 2nd?
>
>Also, linked to this, do you find it easier if dance instructions talk
>more of positions or people, e.g. "face 1st corner people" or "face 2nd
>corner positions"?
>
>Is there a correct way, or just personal preference?
>
>Does it depend what you're doing when using the terms?
>
>Thanks.
>
>James
>Preston, UK
>

--
Bryan McAlister

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:15:52 +0100
From: "Ian Brockbank" <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: Corners
To: "'SCD news and discussion'" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <00a601c6e237$0f35a390$191414xx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>
Keywords: Mailing list
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Dick,

> I consider "1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th corners" is best - concise, easily
> distinguished over a busy [noisy?] dance floor, and
> definitive if these are
> considered positions rather than people.

In the groups I call for, 3rd and 4th corners is _not_ best because
they are not familiar terms. If I used them I would get a large
number of bemused looks. "Partner's 1st corner" is the standard
terminology, so doesn't take much working out (because the calculation
has been done ages ago, so it's now just an abstract term), whereas
"3rd corner", because non-standard, is the term that has to be
worked out on the spot.

Horses for courses.

> Consider a hypothetical situation where 1st man is required
> to face his 3rd
> corner, while 1st lady faces her 4th corner. [I know of no
> current dance
> where this occurs, but it is not impossible] Using the "1st,
> 2nd, Partner's
> 1st, Partner's 2nd" convention, it would be necessary to say
> "First man faces his partner's 1st corner, while 1st lady faces her
> partner's second corner"
> rather than
> "First man faces his 3rd corner while 1st lady faces her 4th corner"
> And that's without bringing the words "person" and "position" into it.

Er, no, you say 1st couple face 2nd couple. Corners are not useful here.

> A further point. I think instructions should be concise, and
> clear and also
> PHONETICALLY DISTINGUISHABLE - [e.g. "reel" and "wheel" are
> easy to mishear;
> "1st" and "3rd" are easily differentiated; "1st" and
> "Partners 1st" can
> sometimes be misheard]

So use the term "hands across" instead of "wheel".

> To the best of my belief, RSCDS "officially" confuse things
> well beyond any
> of this [What's new] They consider when you are on the
> sideline, you face
> your first corner PERSON, whereas if you are back to back
> with your partner
> facing this first corner person, YOU are in FIRST CORNER
> POSITION. Lord
> knows how they describe facing your 1st Corner person on the
> sidelines, in
> your
> partner's 2nd corner place.
>
> The whole system needs an overhaul by someone sane with some
> knowledge of
> STANDARDISATION.
>
> Confused?????

_You_ certainly seem to be.

Where does it say you are in first corner position when facing
your 1st corner? In my experience, 1st corner position is the
position occupied by 1st corner person when the two are synonymous
- i.e. 3rd lady's position for 1st man and 2nd man's position for
1st lady.

Dick, you seem to have this belief that everything done by "the RSCDS"
is wrong, awkward and done to make things harder. Yet you seem
(on the evidence of what you have claimed about the RSCDS in your
Strathspey postings) to have little knowledge of what the RSCDS
really says or how the RSCDS really works. Please learn a bit
more and wonder whether there is a reason (or if you really have
the facts correct) before being so dismissive. And no I am not
saying the RSCDS is perfect in every way. But then, nor is any
organisation - and this organisation is largely run by unpaid
volunteers in their spare time.

Cheers,

Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
http://www.scottishdance.net/

------------------------------

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